Overall, no. But on clay, yes, IMHO. If Kuerten had remained healthy, Ralph's FO run would have been put back a few years. Again, JMHO. He had a great forehand too.
Sorry to burst the bubble but to say a healthy Guga would be ahead of Rafa is rediculous. During his run at the 3 FO, he had so many bad losses against low ranked players. For him to win the FO by beating both rafa and fed is a tall order, which I don't think he will. His record I posted below show no indication that he's ahead of rafa/fed. How many bad loss you see rafa on clay? And during prime fed, he had much few bad losses and most of the time it was him and rafa facing each other in the finals. No question Guga was a force on clay, but a healthy Guga starting 2005, he's behind Rafa and Roger on clay, respectively. Now please....do your homework first before posting !!
1997 Losses
Clavet #35
Dosedel #51 (Master Series)
Santoro #69
Fromberg #89 (Master Series)
Mantilla #16
Gumy #75
1997 Win
RG….Bruguera #19
Curitiba…..Sabau #158
============================
1998 Losses
Costa #54
Pioline #16 (Master Series)
Gustafsson #31
Corretja #9 (Master Series)
Rio #3 (Master Series)
Safin #116 (Rolland Garros)
Clavet #29
Puerta #95
Vicente #62
Hernandez #192
Lapentti #99
1998 Win
Stuttgart…...Kucera #16
==========================
1999 Losses
Rios #13
Santopadre #108
Moya #6 (Master Series)
Medvedev #100 (Rolland Garros)
Spadea #29
Norman #49
1999 Win
Monte Carlo….Rios #13
Rome…….Rafter #4
=========================
2000 Losses
Chela #129
Puerta #72
Kucera #42 (Master Series)
Norman #4 (Master Series)
2000 Win
Santiago….Puerta #84
Hamburg…Safin #14
RG….Norman #3
========================
2001 Losses
Ferrero #9 (Master Series)
Mirnyi #54 (Master Series)
2001 Win
Buenos….Acasuso #172
Acapulco….Blanco #116
Monte Carlo….Arazi #53
RG…..Corretja #13
Stuttgart…..Canas #39
Overall, no. But on clay, yes, IMHO. If Kuerten had remained healthy, Ralph's FO run would have been put back a few years. Again, JMHO. He had a great forehand too.
Rosewall was the best clay court player in the world for years. It may have been his best surface. I don't think it's unreasonable to think he could have won ten French Opens if there was Open tennis from the very beginning.
Fact is Rosewall won the French in 1953 and when Open Tennis started in 1968. How many could he have won in between if Open Tennis was around?
Kuerten is one of my all time favorites and from my observation and the opinion of a few tennis experts that I spoke to, they believe the Kuerten at his best may very well beat Nadal at his best on red clay. Of course this was a few years. However and this is a big "however" Kuerten also had some losses on red clay to players he should have beaten. Rosewall would on occasion lose on clay but generally the names would be someone like Rod Laver and that's not a bad loss. And Rosewall usually beat Laver on clay. There is no way Kuerten should rank over Rosewall on clay or any surface.
Including Pro Majors, Rosewall won at least six majors on clay that I counted and that number could have been higher because for a number of years there were no Pro Majors on clay. Rosewall is one of the all time greats on clay and at worst top three, arguably number one.
First, my understanding is that English isn't your first language. (That's what others have said and you haven't denied it). But, where in that quote did I say that a healthy Kuerten would be ahead of Ralph? That premise, read literally, doesn't even make sense. But, English isn't your first language, so you get a perpetual pass on poor grammar.
Overall, no. But on clay, yes, IMHO. If Kuerten had remained healthy, Ralph's FO run would have been put back a few years. Again, JMHO. He had a great forehand too.
I'm not saying Rafa>Borg on clay, but I find it funny that the main argument from the people on the Borg side is "he has more FO", but then if comparing Rafa to say, Lendl or Connors, and saying he's better because 9>8, they'll tell you that "slams aren't everything"
But what the hell did you mean when you said "healthy" Guga would push rafa’s run at the FO back for a few years??
Obviously, you implied that Guga would have beaten Rafa since no one have beaten him except 2009 Soderling. Fact is...Guga lost to many low ranked players ! Forget about Rafa and Fed, off the top of my head - players like Novak, Soderling DP, focus Nalbandian, Monfils, Ferrer are all superior players over the ones that Guga lost. There’s no argument to support Guga would have stop Rafa’s run at the RG when arguably so many can take him out. Capiche?
Look, you are entitle to your opinion, but the facts I presented doesn’t support you claim. I have challenge you in many debates including this one, and you have no answer.
You don't have the knowledge or wisdom to challenge anyone in a tennis debate. What you can do is lie, obfuscate and proffer false premises, as you did here. Perhaps my answers are just beyond your comprehension, so you do the only thing you can do - change the subject.
Could someone please state the case for Kuerten being above Muster in the clay-court ranks apart from the obvious of 3 French Open titles to 1? Do you really think that's enough on its own?
Thank you for proving me once again that you continue to duck and cover. And yet, you claim I don’t win a battle. I don’t need to do much battling since you always running away. Do you need another pair of Nike?
I think my post above states such a case! To that I would add that Kuerten not only hit better than Muster, he was a better athlete, and he had a better serve. Not that Muster couldn't grind out a win when Kuerten was not at his best. But, IMHO, Kuerten's best was at a higher level than Muster's best.
Where's Kuerten's 65-2 clay-court season? I don't see one remotely close to it.
Could someone please state the case for Kuerten being above Muster in the clay-court ranks apart from the obvious of 3 French Open titles to 1? Do you really think that's enough on its own?
Muster was a grinder and gave it 100% every time. That's not disputed. But, where was the Kuerten of the mid 90's - someone who was just as steady as Muster on clay, more powerful, quicker, with a better serve? There was none!
Muster did had a great run in the mid 90s. In fact he had 2 impressive clay winning streaks. I think Stich was one of the player that ended of his streak(only rafa was able to break his record). Since he didn’t have a long dominant time frame, I think that’s one area hurts him.
Muster had a 40 match winning streak on clay from February - July 1995, ended by Corretja in Gstaad. Muster had a 38 match clay-court winning streak from August 1995 - May 1996, ended by Moya in Munich in Muster's 4th tournament in 4 weeks. The loss to Stich was at the 1996 French Open, at a time when Muster was 34-1 on clay for 1996 combined with the 65-2 of the previous year.
Again, Muster's clay court credentials were very impressive. He was a great clay court grinder. But, the very next year, in 1997, a 21 year old Kuerten beat a 29 year old Muster, Kafelnikov, and Bruguera in the final, to win his first FO. So, Muster was pretty much still in his prime when he lost that match to a Kuerten who hadn't yet reached his prime.
Muster had the best hardcourt year of his career in 1997, but this came at the expense of his clay-court form. Muster was just 9-9 on clay in 1997. Don't get me wrong, what Kuerten did to win the 1997 French Open was absolutely fantastic, beating Muster, Medvedev, Kafelnikov, Dewulf and Bruguera, but Muster was not in his 1995-1996 clay-court form at this time and was actually a better player on hardcourts at that point.
Another good clay-courter in the mid-1990s is Medvedev, who won 4 masters titles, all on clay, and seemed to have bad luck at the French Open almost every year. In 1992, Courier thrashed him. In 1993 and 1994, Bruguera thrashed him. In 1995, Muster thrashed him. In 1997, Kuerten beat him in a 5-set epic. In 1999, after disposing of Sampras and the tournament favourite, Kuerten, blows a two-set lead in the final against Agassi.
Just a quick question for all of you, who had the highest level of play when "on" their game on red clay? In order, who is the best to worst among Federer, Kuerten and Nadal?
1. Nadal
2. Kuerten
3. Federer
1. Nadal
2. Kuerten
3. Federer
The Luxilon shot can be traced back to 1997, when Gustavo Kuerten, a gangly, low-ranked Brazilian player, decided to string his racket with a co-polymer monofilament designed by Luxilon Industries, a small Belgian company specializing in medical sutures and bra straps (it still makes both). Kuerten confounded opponents with his aggressive, dipping shots, winning three French Open Championships and reaching number one. He credited Luxilon for a crucial role in his unlikely ascent.
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1899876,00.html#ixzz164hEGDc5
Another thing about Kuerten is that he liked to play his way into form. He wasn't like Nadal where he'd nearly always be on his game on a clay surface. Kuerten liked to ease himself into form by building confidence and momentum. He could be much more vulnerable otherwise. Even Federer is more likely to do well on clay from the off.
I saw Connors play Borg in the US Open semi in 1975. Borg wasn't nearly the player he would be and it was clear that Borg had problems on har-tru with the Connors power and also the fact his shots didn't bounce as high as many other players and tended to skid. Connors was able to win almost any big point in that match by hitting Borg's short balls and approaching the net. Borg was able to adjust to that obviously in later years.
But by that time, Borg had won 2 FO, 1 DC, 2 IO, had Played a Masters F, 2 WCT F....He was a very very good player in 1975 and a win over him then, counts as much, IMHO, as a win over early 80´s Borg.
Yes, Borg was already very, very good. But simply looking at his results says that he was nowhere near as dominant on clay in 1975 as he would be in 1980.
Yes, Borg was already very, very good. But simply looking at his results says that he was nowhere near as dominant on clay in 1975 as he would be in 1980.
Well, if you comapre the range of players he beat at his first 2 RG titles (Orantes,Vilas,Solomon,Panatta,Dibbs..) and those in his last 2 (Gerulaitis,Lendl,Pecci,Taroczy,Solomon,Barazzuti), I don´t think it was easier for him in 74&75 than 80&81 ( with the possible exception of the young Lendl of 1981).I just cannot see the difference.
True that he was already a very strong player on clay. Just some nitpicks: as of the 1975 USO Borg had no Davis Cup title yet or Masters final, and only 1 Italian.But by that time, Borg had won 2 FO, 1 DC, 2 IO, had Played a Masters F, 2 WCT F....He was a very very good player in 1975 and a win over him then, counts as much, IMHO, as a win over early 80´s Borg.
Yes Borg did improve after '75, and it's reflected in his Har-Tru meetings with Connors. They met once a year on Har-Tru from 1974-79:The Borg of 1975 was an excellent clay courter but he wasn't near what he would be a few years later. A perfect example is that Connors defeated Borg on Har-tru at the US Open in 1975 in straight sets by identical scores of 7-5 7-5 7-5. A few year later Connors couldn't really touch Borg on har-tru as evidenced by their match at the 1979 Pepsi in which Connors won 5 games in two sets.
You're right, the quality of players that he beat in '74-75 was not much different than '80-81. In some ways the 74-75 opponents look stronger: Orantes, Vilas and Panatta all won Slams on clay, while the second group has only Lendl. But Lendl, even the immature Lendl, was an extremely difficult opponent and ultimately became the greatest claycourter of all of Borg's opponents. Also, Gerulaitis is in that second group and he won two Italian Opens (including one in a great victory over Vilas that we recently mentioned).Well, if you comapre the range of players he beat at his first 2 RG titles (Orantes,Vilas,Solomon,Panatta,Dibbs..) and those in his last 2 (Gerulaitis,Lendl,Pecci,Taroczy,Solomon,Barazzuti), I don´t think it was easier for him in 74&75 than 80&81 ( with the possible exception of the young Lendl of 1981).I just cannot see the difference.
You're right, the quality of players that he beat in '74-75 was not much different than '80-81. In some ways the 74-75 opponents look stronger: Orantes, Vilas and Panatta all won Slams on clay, while the second group has only Lendl. But Lendl, even the immature Lendl, was an extremely difficult opponent and ultimately became the greatest claycourter of all of Borg's opponents. Also, Gerulaitis is in that second group and he won two Italian Opens (including one in a great victory over Vilas that we recently mentioned).
So it's difficult to tell. Basically, the two sets of defeated opponents are comparable, I guess that's safe to say.
But when you look at the scores there's a clear difference. Borg tore through the 1980 French in straight sets. And he defeated everyone except Lendl in straights in '81. Those opponents you listed in '74-75, he lost sets to all of them, except Vilas. (Note, he never actually played Dibbs at RG. But in his place I suppose you could name Ramirez, a good claycourter who beat Connors in the first round in '73).
And 1980 was not the only year Borg won the French in straight sets. He also did it, of course, in '78.
Here's Borg's record at Roland Garros: http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Bo/B/Bjorn-Borg.aspx?t=pa&y=0&m=s&e=520#
Borg rarely lost on clay in general, after the '77 USO.
So I would say Borg was a greater claycourter from 78-81 than he was in 74-75. Not necessarily by a lot, but I think his record reflects a real improvement.
Plus, IMO you can see the difference just in watching the DVD's of his claycourt matches over the years. To me he looks distinctly better on red clay and Har-Tru in the '78-81 period compared to '74-76.
The point you're trying to make escapes me.
Yes, Borg's competition was always good. No, he wasn't as good in 1975 as he would be in 1980.
I may agree 1980 Borg would possibly beat 1975 Borg.But in 1975, he was already the man to beat on a slow surface and only Panatta or Connors - on the ocassion- could give me a real scare.Vilas,Orantes,Nastase never beat Borg again - in serious matches, I mean- on a clay court after 1975.
clay court GOAT is Rosewall, no questions asked. Then Nadal/Borg
oh yeah, no one beats rosewall. The guy could hit 80mph slice backhands. There is no way Nadal could win a point.
oh yeah, no one beats rosewall. The guy could hit 80mph slice backhands. There is no way Nadal could win a point.
Rosewall wouldn't even need his 80mph backhands (which were very flat slices, if you are being a sarcastic doubter), he could just float them and make Nadal cry. Especially since this would be nadal's plan:
Forehand to Rosewall's strength
Rosewall already in position like the god he is
Rosewall hits to Nadal's weakest position
Nadal runs like the wind because he misread Rosewall's movements, somehow gets to ball
rinse and repeat till Rosewall wins.
you are right. He can beat Nadal by just using the tweener all day.
Nadal's not that bad.
Realistically, if they both grew up same era, I would say average match on RG clay would go 6-4 4-6 7-6 6-4 in Rosewall's favor. Or close, you know what I mean.
I think Rosewall on his worst day will beat Nadal at his very best 60 60 60.
Nadal's not that bad.
I'd agree, though it depends on how you define consistency. Is it being fully committed to training and to "showing up" for each match you play? Well that's a kind of consistency that Borg always had.I think it's really about consistency. Borg could dominate in 1975 - he just didn't do it at the same rate as he would later when he reached his prime.
When one looks at Borg's results on clay in 1975, there are clearly some dominating performances there. But scattered throughout are some unexpected losses as well. None of those later.
I'd agree, though it depends on how you define consistency. Is it being fully committed to training and to "showing up" for each match you play? Well that's a kind of consistency that Borg always had.
But you can also start to be consistently dominant because you've put enough distance between you and your rivals, not just in terms of commitment and emotional maturity, but in terms of skill. When that happens a player might have a day when he's not at his best -- he could be inconsistent in that minor way -- but he still comes away with the victory because his superiority over his opponent is just too much to overcome. Or he pulls it out because of the benefits of experience: and that's something that the 1978-81 Borg did have over his younger self (along with, I think, more depth on his groundstrokes and a better serve).
His Har-Tru matches against Connors show a lot of this.