Is it considered "bush" to use non-traditional serves at 4.0 level?

Cindysphinx · Jun 14, 2011

blakesq said:
Maybe. Maybe you lost by wasting an opportunity to learn to deal with an unexpected underhand serve? By the way, if "winning the practice" is not important, why were you keeping score?

We were keeping score so that if somebody did something dumb like serve underhand, then she could only do it four times and then it would be someone else's turn to serve.

Seriously. If you have a good serve, learn to serve into the sun. Next time it is sunny, your opponent might be a 4.0 guy, and then what will you do?

Cindy -- who doesn't have much patience with partners who won't serve into the sun

JackB1 · Jun 14, 2011

I agree with Cindy. Practice is for practicing things you are weaker at and want to improve.

dizzlmcwizzl · Jun 14, 2011

I personally have no problem with it. Last night in a 4.5 match a guy who is much better than me did it twice ... both times I got the return in and short ... both time he popped it up and I volleyed the ball into his partner's gut. I like it when people think I cannot cover the shot and give me a free point.

In a league match ... it is all good and I actually welcome when some one tries to do this to me. However, if given the choice between calling two guys for a social match and all other things being equal ... I would call the guy who tries to win by outplaying me rather than the guy who tries to win by hitting a non-traditional shot hoping I will error.

blakesq · Jun 14, 2011

Seriously, learn to handle an underhand serve, just giving up on it, is poor sportsmanship, imho.

Just trying to point out that just because you think she has to learn to serve into the sun, doesn't it equally apply that you should learn to get to an underhand serve, instead of calling it "dumb", because you simply do not like it?

Cindysphinx said:
We were keeping score so that if somebody did something dumb like serve underhand, then she could only do it four times and then it would be someone else's turn to serve.

Seriously. If you have a good serve, learn to serve into the sun. Next time it is sunny, your opponent might be a 4.0 guy, and then what will you do?

Cindy -- who doesn't have much patience with partners who won't serve into the sun

Cindysphinx · Jun 14, 2011

I will admit that I usually don't respect folks who serve underhand.

I have never had any woman serve to me underhand in any situation other than the team practice I described. No matter how lame a woman's serve is, she will hit that serve come heck or high water.

Guys, though. I have had guys in mixed underhand serve to me or my partner many times. I hardly ever lose the point (as I sit here, I cannot think of a single time I missed the return but my memory is not perfect). What kind of guys are we talking about, then?

They were in every case guys with huge, fast bombs for first serves who could rarely seem to land one in the box. Which makes me think that what these fellas really need is some serious practice time with a hopper to raise their first serve percentage and learn a good, reliable spin second serve.

Underhand serving is often a crutch, and not a very good one. Yeah, maybe some women lack the mobility or stand so far back and are so out to lunch that you can win a point or two with an underhand serve.

I mean, people who serve underhand telegraph it. They give you this big old long stare to make sure you are ready so that you can't claim you weren't ready. So when you see that extra bit of staring come your way, you know a trick is about to go down.

Cindy -- who wants to confiscate an opponent's manhood when he faults on the underhand serve

Cindysphinx · Jun 14, 2011

blakesq said:
Seriously, learn to handle an underhand serve, just giving up on it, is poor sportsmanship, imho.

Just trying to point out that just because you think she has to learn to serve into the sun, doesn't it equally apply that you should learn to get to an underhand serve, instead of calling it "dumb", because you simply do not like it?

We cross-posted.

I can handle underhand serves. I do not need to work on this. What I needed to work on that day was cracking a good return off of a high-quality serve like this lady has, and then coming to net.

She doesn't have to crack her good serve at me. She can underhand serve.

And I can make no move to play it and say, "Good shot. 30-love."

blakesq · Jun 14, 2011

So, there is nothing you can work on when receiving an underhand serve? How about hitting a clean winner off an unexpected underhand serve? Thats something I know I can work on, and I am a 4.0 player. How about driving a down the line winner off the underhand serve, thats always a shot i can work on. How about hitting a winner lob over the net person off of an underhand serve? Do you have all those shots perfected? If so, congratulations. But I suspect you don't.

But it does sound like you are quite good at giving up on shots. Not sure if that is something to be proud of.

Cindysphinx said:
We cross-posted.

I can handle underhand serves. I do not need to work on this. What I needed to work on that day was cracking a good return off of a high-quality serve like this lady has, and then coming to net.

She doesn't have to crack her good serve at me. She can underhand serve.

And I can make no move to play it and say, "Good shot. 30-love."

Cindysphinx · Jun 14, 2011

: Shrug :

I can run down drop shot serves just fine.

Two years later, and my friend still cannot serve into the sun.

Food for thought . . . .

cknobman · Jun 15, 2011

I tried it in practice the Monday when I was serving for a set in doubles. Threw in a super slow paced slice serve out of nowhere for the first time in a match. Ball went in but it still bounced high enough for the returner to run up and give the return a pretty decent whack.

Not worth it in my opinion because my regular paced kick/slice serves are more then good enough to win points off of (even on second serve).

I guess I could see the point of this if your playing someone who does not move well or lacks good footwork but for the most part at my level guys are just going to take advantage of a "cheap" serve like that. I could also see it working in womens tennis better too since they dont move as well as men (please dont take this the wrong way because I dont want to start one of those discussions I am just stating what I have observed both from playing mixed doubles and watching womens tennis).

J_R_B · Jun 15, 2011

cknobman said:
I tried it in practice the Monday when I was serving for a set in doubles. Threw in a super slow paced slice serve out of nowhere for the first time in a match. Ball went in but it still bounced high enough for the returner to run up and give the return a pretty decent whack.

Not worth it in my opinion because my regular paced kick/slice serves are more then good enough to win points off of (even on second serve).

I guess I could see the point of this if your playing someone who does not move well or lacks good footwork but for the most part at my level guys are just going to take advantage of a "cheap" serve like that. I could also see it working in womens tennis better too since they dont move as well as men (please dont take this the wrong way because I dont want to start one of those discussions I am just stating what I have observed both from playing mixed doubles and watching womens tennis).

The serve I practiced was not super slow paced. It was probably 60-70% of my normal 1st serve pace (or about 2nd serve pace). I swung pretty fast at it, but the swing was about 3/4 sidearm (like a pitcher who drops down to somewhere between overhand and full sidearm), and the intent was to slice around and under the ball with a combination of extreme side & underspin to create as strange of a bounce as possible. It wasn't easy to take a good cut at this and get it over the net and in, but when it worked, it was fantastic. I was practiing serving down the tee on the ad side, and when I hit it right, it bounced about 6" in the air and 15* to the left (or away from the returner). The second bounce was generally back near the baseline to give you an idea of the pace. It seemed to me that it would be very difficult to return that if you weren't expecting it.

cknobman · Jun 15, 2011

J_R_B said:
The serve I practiced was not super slow paced. It was probably 60-70% of my normal 1st serve pace (or about 2nd serve pace). I swung pretty fast at it, but the swing was about 3/4 sidearm (like a pitcher who drops down to somewhere between overhand and full sidearm), and the intent was to slice around and under the ball with a combination of extreme side & underspin to create as strange of a bounce as possible. It wasn't easy to take a good cut at this and get it over the net and in, but when it worked, it was fantastic. I was practiing serving down the tee on the ad side, and when I hit it right, it bounced about 6" in the air and 15* to the left (or away from the returner). The second bounce was generally back near the baseline to give you an idea of the pace. It seemed to me that it would be very difficult to return that if you weren't expecting it.

Sounds like a pretty sweet serve and if its reliable/consistent enough then it may be a valuable weapon in the arsenal. I guess for me I just have not practiced something like that for fear of the exaggerated swing interfering with my swing when I try to hit a normal serve. Tennis is about a fair amount of muscle memory and it took me long enough to be able to become decent at hitting fairly decent paced slice/kick serves so I guess Im afraid of messing that up.

J_R_B · Jun 15, 2011

cknobman said:
Sounds like a pretty sweet serve and if its reliable/consistent enough then it may be a valuable weapon in the arsenal. I guess for me I just have not practiced something like that for fear of the exaggerated swing interfering with my swing when I try to hit a normal serve. Tennis is about a fair amount of muscle memory and it took me long enough to be able to become decent at hitting fairly decent paced slice/kick serves so I guess Im afraid of messing that up.

Yeah, it's not something I will practice or use a lot for that exact reason. Just something I was fooling around with once that worked well enough to maybe throw in once a match and see what happens. The motion is SO different that I don't think it will screw with my muscle memory for my normal serve motion (basically take a normal toss and wait for it to fall to roughly head height and then take a whack at it - no knee bend, no trophy position, etc).

Angle Queen · Aug 30, 2011

*sigh*

I/we got jobbed this morning on an (unexpected) underhand serve. At 6-all in the 3rd set TB.

Not quite 4.0 level but were playing 7.5 Combo. It was the 3.5 opponent who pulled it; an older lady who plays with a lot of spin and placement.

I'd like to say I wasn't "ready"; I really thought she was going to knock the ball to her net partner. We had the unusual circumstance of a 4-ball can and we'd all somewhat struggled with what to do with the "extra" extra.

But there it was. And I got to it, but just barely and their net lady had an easy put away.

We still could/should have recovered to win it but made some other errors and lost it 10-8.

I'll keep my head high that we didn't protest, whine, retaliate or even say anything at all about it. Her partner was as shocked as we were.

Next time I play an older, crafty person...I'll be ready for it.

Bottom line: Not bush on her part. Dumba$$ on mine for not converting.

Caesar · Aug 30, 2011

Happened to me last night. Low bouncing surface, have a break point, guy was a good server so I was well back for the first serve return... he pops in a little underarm dolly that leaves me stranded.

It doesn't bother me. If someone has to resort to cheap tricks to beat me in a rec game then that speaks volumes.

Cindysphinx · Aug 31, 2011

Angle Queen said:
*sigh*

I/we got jobbed this morning on an (unexpected) underhand serve. At 6-all in the 3rd set TB.

Not quite 4.0 level but were playing 7.5 Combo. It was the 3.5 opponent who pulled it; an older lady who plays with a lot of spin and placement.

I'd like to say I wasn't "ready"; I really thought she was going to knock the ball to her net partner. We had the unusual circumstance of a 4-ball can and we'd all somewhat struggled with what to do with the "extra" extra.

But there it was. And I got to it, but just barely and their net lady had an easy put away.

We still could/should have recovered to win it but made some other errors and lost it 10-8.

I'll keep my head high that we didn't protest, whine, retaliate or even say anything at all about it. Her partner was as shocked as we were.

Next time I play an older, crafty person...I'll be ready for it.

Bottom line: Not bush on her part. Dumba$$ on mine for not converting.

You didn't whine or protest or say anything. But . . .

What did you think? Did you think it was bush league?

I've never had that happen in a TB. That said, I have been doing something lately that helps. A lot of people get tight, and their serve gets shorter in the box. So I try to stand in tighter during a TB than any other time, pretty much as close as I dare.

That positioning discourages trick shots like you describe, but it also makes sure I will never have another serve double-bounce before I can return it because the server was so tight she barely got it over the net! That was embarrassing.

sphinx780 · Aug 31, 2011

Caesar said:
Happened to me last night. Low bouncing surface, have a break point, guy was a good server so I was well back for the first serve return... he pops in a little underarm dolly that leaves me stranded.

It doesn't bother me. If someone has to resort to cheap tricks to beat me in a rec game then that speaks volumes.

Why didn't you close off when you saw his arm motion change? Sounds like he took advantage of your anticipation or lack there of.

Try hitting that underhanded serve when down a break point and see how easy it is to win with or realize the skill that it invariably takes to not screw that up...they may be unorthodox but I'd never try one as for me that's a low percentage play.

Is a drop shot bush league? If not then the serve should be no different, there's an risk/reward that comes with that strategy.

AngleQueen has it right, she won't be surprised next time, she'll make sure the opponent's regret that shot selection.

wmilas · Aug 31, 2011

I just started playing competitively again (3.5-4.0) and I asked a few pros I practice with this exact same question. I am working on my full suite of serves and I wanted to know what was "allowed". Their answers were almost unanimous:

1) If its a competitive match, anything goes. You don't like it, shut up about it and learn to hit it in your next practice session. Saying anything about it in a match is disrespectful to your opponent, and is looked down upon.

2) In practice LEARN to hit and return these serves. Every one has a weakness, that's why they aren't used much at higher levels except as change ups (which admittedly, work great).

I was having problems returning big flat serves followed up by short dump change-ups. My problem was standing too far back on the flat serves thus having an issue getting forward to blast the change-ups. After I worked on taking the flat serves closer/faster, the opponent that was destroying me with the dumps then got the ball shoved down his throat. That ended that.

3) If its a practice and you know your opponent is working on a specific aspect, and he asks nicely not to hit a particular stroke you are not actively working on, respect it. Its co-operative practice. If he doesn't say anything and you want to work on it, its fair game.

blakesq · Aug 31, 2011

Your pros are all wrong. Everyone knows that you are supposed to ONLY hit shots that your opponent approves of and/or is expecting. If you do not do that, then you are resorting to cheap tricks to beat someone, and that speaks volumes!

wmilas said:
I just started playing competitively again (3.5-4.0) and I asked a few pros I practice with this exact same question. I am working on my full suite of serves and I wanted to know what was "allowed". Their answers were almost unanimous:

1) If its a competitive match, anything goes. You don't like it, shut up about it and learn to hit it in your next practice session. Saying anything about it in a match is disrespectful to your opponent, and is looked down upon.

2) In practice LEARN to hit and return these serves. Every one has a weakness, that's why they aren't used much at higher levels except as change ups (which admittedly, work great).

I was having problems returning big flat serves followed up by short dump change-ups. My problem was standing too far back on the flat serves thus having an issue getting forward to blast the change-ups. After I worked on taking the flat serves closer/faster, the opponent that was destroying me with the dumps then got the ball shoved down his throat. That ended that.

3) If its a practice and you know your opponent is working on a specific aspect, and he asks nicely not to hit a particular stroke you are not actively working on, respect it. Its co-operative practice. If he doesn't say anything and you want to work on it, its fair game.

tennischemist · Aug 31, 2011

it isn't bush at all

look at baseball.. the finest pitchers know how to mix speeds and they know when to pitch throw away/junk balls

tennis is no different, it is about timing and placement and disrupting your opponent's timing - either via overpowering them or altering speeds and placements - is an important part of the game.

another thing (i think) is that it is not necessarily easy to hit "junk" serves.

not to ride the baseball comparison, but a lot of pitchers struggle to throw intentional balls because they can't throw accurately with a throttled motion. service is similar to that.

when i hit around with some of my friends who maybe have played 4 hrs of tennis in their lives, I have a hard time consistently holding back and still hitting accurately.

Angle Queen · Aug 31, 2011

Cindysphinx said:
You didn't whine or protest or say anything. But . . .

What did you think? Did you think it was bush league?

Sneaky? Definitely. Tricky? Sure. But bush? Not at all. In fact, 24 hrs and some contemplation later...it was pretty damn gutsy. Like I said, she's an older, very experienced player so perhaps for her, it wasn't such a stretch to actually execute. Next time, though, I WILL be ready or have the nerve to hold up my hand/protest...instead of feeling slightly embarrassed at being caught on my heels.

I've never had that happen in a TB. That said, I have been doing something lately that helps. A lot of people get tight, and their serve gets shorter in the box. So I try to stand in tighter during a TB than any other time, pretty much as close as I dare.

That positioning discourages trick shots like you describe, but it also makes sure I will never have another serve double-bounce before I can return it because the server was so tight she barely got it over the net! That was embarrassing.

Good tip.

And I've found myself creeping in a bit too as a match wears on and I get my timing down to their serve and serve motion. What made this occurrence particularly tricky, though, was that durn 4th ball. We really had fumbled around all match to get it to a safe place be it an opponent, net or fence. The motion she used was much like one might to bunt a stray ball to someone else. Very, very clever.

OrangePower · Aug 31, 2011

Angle Queen said:
Sneaky? Definitely. Tricky? Sure. But bush? Not at all.

This.

It's very rare, but occassionally happens at the 4.5 level also. I had a doubles match earlier this season where an opponent tried it on me. He had a big first serve for which I was setting up maybe 3 feet behind the baseline. Relatively late in the match (we were up a set and a break at that point), he hit a sliced dropper instead of his regular first serve. It was effective in that it did catch my by surprise, and I had to scramble to reach it, but I managed to get to it and dropshot it back to him. We ended up winning the point after an exchange of volleys, although it could have ended up either way once we were all at net. However I still think it was a poor choice of shot - it's probably a 50/50 proposition to win the point, and that's assuming he hits a good dropper serve, but on the other hand, his first serve was going in at about 60% and he was winning most of those.

jdfulmer · Aug 31, 2011

I think it's bush if you do it in a social but if you're playing competitively, your primary objective is to win. If bush helps you, then bush away.....

Taxvictim · Aug 31, 2011

Angle Queen said:
I/we got jobbed this morning on an (unexpected) underhand serve.

There's a difference between a "non-traditional" serve and a sneak serve. Nothing wrong with serving any way that's legal, but for a server to appear as if she is not ready to serve, then suddenly push the ball over the net (as Lendl did to McEnroe famously)... that's BUSH.

So, which way did your old lady do it?

Cindysphinx · Aug 31, 2011

Taxvictim said:
There's a difference between a "non-traditional" serve and a sneak serve. Nothing wrong with serving any way that's legal, but for a server to appear as if she is not ready to serve, then suddenly push the ball over the net (as Lendl did to McEnroe famously)... that's BUSH.

So, which way did your old lady do it?

I think this sort of thing is bush, but for a different reason. I mean, if the receiver is ready, he's ready. He can't become unready absent outside interference.

Still . . .

I think there is a subtle reason why folks consider underhand serving bush but are willing to tolerate or even applaud other "surprise" shots like droppers or lobs or head fakes.

The Code seems to suggest that players are supposed to start each point off in a certain way. Server must wait for receiver to be ready, after which receiver has to stay ready. Server cannot move around. Server has to serve within a certain defined space. Server cannot suddenly vary his tempo (quick serving). Server is held to a pretty rigid standard, if you think about it.

Receiver, on the other hand, gets a bit of freedom. He can become unready if there is outside interference. He can feint with the body. Receiver's partner can get in on the act and stand in the middle of the box if she wants.

The Code's approach to the moments before the serve is struck is somewhere between "neutral" and "favoring the receiver."

But once the point starts, all bets are off. Players can move however they want, and they can use any trick shot or surprise tactic that they want so long as the intent isn't solely to distract. The Code no longer cares about a level playing field once the point starts, and restrictions apply to both sides equally.

In that context, we have the underhand serve. In practice, the underhand serve is *always* done to surprise the receiver. Servers do everything they can to hide their intentions and mimic other pre-serve behaviors, as in AngleQueen's case.

It is the Server's deliberate trickery *before the point starts* that is bothersome, IMHO. The Code seems to want to tie the server's hands and keep the pre-point shenanigans to a minimum, and here we have a server who has found a way to "surprise" the receiver anyway.

So yes, it's legal. It's also bush league. People can be bush if they want. I would never say a word about it were I in AngleQueen's shoes. But yes, I would secretly think it was bush.

Maybe we can come up with a name for those players. We have declared that some players are"Pushers." Perhaps folks who use the underhand serve to surprise their opponents are "Bushers."

r2473 · Aug 31, 2011

Caesar · Aug 31, 2011

sphinx780 said:
Why didn't you close off when you saw his arm motion change? Sounds like he took advantage of your anticipation or lack there of.

There was no change in arm motion. It was just a quick little pop from the ready stance before he even brought the racquet up.

sphinx780 said:
Try hitting that underhanded serve when down a break point and see how easy it is to win with or realize the skill that it invariably takes to not screw that up...they may be unorthodox but I'd never try one as for me that's a low percentage play.

Ever played on wet carpet? Low bounce, lots of skidding. For a big server the receiver has to be well back, so the sliced forehand drop serve is an easy play if it's unexpected. Unless the opponent knows it's coming, it's virtually impossible for them to get there.

It's extremely bush in a rec comp. You just have to roll your eyes at someone who is so preoccupied with winning that they'll go to such lengths.

blakesq · Sep 1, 2011

The most "bush" thing there is, is complaining about legal shots. How bush.

Caesar said:
There was no change in arm motion. It was just a quick little pop from the ready stance before he even brought the racquet up.

Ever played on wet carpet? Low bounce, lots of skidding. For a big server the receiver has to be well back, so the sliced forehand drop serve is an easy play if it's unexpected. Unless the opponent knows it's coming, it's virtually impossible for them to get there.

It's extremely bush in a rec comp. You just have to roll your eyes at someone who is so preoccupied with winning that they'll go to such lengths.

Caesar · Sep 1, 2011

blakesq said:
The most "bush" thing there is, is complaining about legal shots. How bush.

That doesn't even mean anything.

He's perfectly entitled to play those sorts of shots in a rec match. I'm perfectly entitled to regard him with contempt for doing so.

Not everything that is legal is cricket.

beernutz · Sep 1, 2011

Caesar said:
That doesn't even mean anything.

He's perfectly entitled to play those sorts of shots in a rec match. I'm perfectly entitled to regard him with contempt for doing so.

Not everything that is legal is cricket.

And he (and I) are perfectly entitled to think you are bush for regarding someone with any sort of contempt for playing a legal shot. See how that works?

Caesar · Sep 1, 2011

You're using the word in a context that doesn't make any sense. How is it unprofessional to have an (arguably) overdeveloped sense of fair play and sportsmanship?

You might think it's silly, but it's anything but 'bush' according to the common definition of the word.

blakesq · Sep 1, 2011

and I am perfectly entitled to think you are "bush" for thinking its ok to complain about legal shots.

Caesar said:
That doesn't even mean anything.

He's perfectly entitled to play those sorts of shots in a rec match. I'm perfectly entitled to regard him with contempt for doing so.

Not everything that is legal is cricket.

blakesq · Sep 1, 2011

"bush" means unprofessional? ha. Do you make a living competing in tennis? I didn't think so. Therefore, by your own definition, you are bush.

Caesar said:
You're using the word in a context that doesn't make any sense. How is it unprofessional to have an (arguably) overdeveloped sense of fair play and sportsmanship?

You might think it's silly, but it's anything but 'bush' according to the common definition of the word.

Caesar · Sep 1, 2011

One does not have to be paid to act in a professional manner.

beernutz · Sep 1, 2011

Caesar said:
One does not have to be paid to act in a professional manner.

So when Michael Chang hit an underhand serve to Ivan Lendl at the finals of the French Open he was behaving unprofessionally?

Caesar · Sep 1, 2011

That was a fourth round match, not the final. And in my opinion, and the opinion of a lot of people, absolutely it was unprofessional.

You would not catch Stefan Edberg or Pat Rafter resorting to such underhanded techniques to win matches. Particularly not rec matches.

blakesq · Sep 1, 2011

Caesar obviously knows more than Michael Chang.

By the way Caesar, what is your total monetary winnings from Tennis? Is it as high as Chang's?

Caesar said:
That was a fourth round match, not the final. And in my opinion, and the opinion of a lot of people, absolutely it was unprofessional.

You would not catch Stefan Edberg or Pat Rafter resorting to such underhanded techniques to win matches. Particularly not rec matches.

Caesar · Sep 1, 2011

What does earnings have to do with sportsmanship?

JackB1 · Sep 1, 2011

Wow, my original post surely created quite a discussion!

One thing's for sure....there are many different opinions on this and there doesn't seem to be a general consensus. But... my original post was not about an UNDERHAND serve (ala M. Chang). My "junk serve" is more like a forehand drop shot you would hit from near the baseline. I hit it from just around chest height with a sidearm kind of swing. My opponent's reasoning why he thought it was "bush league" was because he said "your normal serves were fine...you never double faulted. I could understand if you were double faulting and just wanted to get it in...". I just don't understand why a "drop shot" during a rally is perfectly OK, but if you do a "drop shot - serve"...it's frowned upon. The reason I don't want to give it up, is because I am good at it

and it get's me easy points at very opportune times in a match. Do I "need" it? No. Is my "normal" serve good enough? Yes. But I don't see where that should matter.

beernutz · Sep 1, 2011

Caesar said:
That was a fourth round match, not the final. And in my opinion, and the opinion of a lot of people, absolutely it was unprofessional.

You would not catch Stefan Edberg or Pat Rafter resorting to such underhanded techniques to win matches. Particularly not rec matches.

That's funny because I have never heard of a single professional player, current or retired, who has ever described that play as unprofessional. But I guess you know more than they do.

Both Edberg and Rafter regularly hit drop shots, how are they different from drop serves? They are both designed to catch an opponent off-guard or unaware.

Caesar · Sep 1, 2011

Are you kidding? Look at the reaction from current pros, former pros, commentators when Karlovic drop-served Haas in Stockholm a few years ago. He was generally and roundly panned for being unprofessional and disrespectful.

You can rationalise it all you want but the reality is that plenty of people see it as a dog act.

That's the beauty of sportsmanship. It's not written down in a book, it's not black and white, it's based on social mores. You don't get to choose the definition that suits - if people think you're being a **** bloke, then you're a **** bloke.

beernutz · Sep 1, 2011

Caesar said:
Are you kidding? Look at the reaction from current pros, former pros, commentators when Karlovic drop-served Haas in Stockholm a few years ago. He was generally and roundly panned for being unprofessional and disrespectful.

You can rationalise it all you want but the reality is that plenty of people see it as a dog act.

That's the beauty of sportsmanship. It's not written down in a book, it's not black and white, it's based on social mores. You don't get to choose the definition that suits - if people think you're being a **** bloke, then you're a **** bloke.

Why don't you look them up and post them? I'm not here to verify your ridiculous assertions.

Just because you believe something to be gamesmanship, doesn't make it so. Show me where other tennis pro's called what Chang, Karlovic, or Lendl did unsportsmanlike and you might convince me, but so far its just you and hot air on your side.

While you're at it take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxzUGtr0ApY

rdis10093 · Sep 1, 2011

ask M. Chang, and then ask Llendal

blakesq · Sep 1, 2011

if you looked at the video posted by beernutz, you would have seen Lendel doing the same "chang" serve to McEnroe.

rdis10093 said:
ask M. Chang, and then ask Llendal

rdis10093 · Sep 1, 2011

blakesq said:
if you looked at the video posted by beernutz, you would have seen Lendel doing the same "chang" serve to McEnroe.

that why I said ask them both

tennismonkey · Sep 1, 2011

Llendal = Lendel = Lendl = hard hitting Czech tennis player.

michael_1265 · Sep 1, 2011

No, it is not bush league. It is a reasonable tactic, just like a major league pitcher mixes a 75 mph changeup with a 96 mph fastball.

The only service tactic that I despise is quick serving, which tries to catch you not ready to return.

Caesar · Sep 1, 2011

beernutz said:
Why don't you look them up and post them? I'm not here to verify your ridiculous assertions.

Just because you believe something to be gamesmanship, doesn't make it so. Show me where other tennis pro's called what Chang, Karlovic, or Lendl did unsportsmanlike and you might convince me, but so far its just you and hot air on your side.

While you're at it take a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxzUGtr0ApY

Watch the footage from the game; listen to the commentators' comments.

It's hardly surprising. Look at how Hingis got booed off the court after drop-serving Graf at the 1999 French Open.

All that's legal under the rules is not sporting. Look at the Trevor Chappell underarm incident. Exactly the same principle.

beernutz · Sep 1, 2011

Caesar said:
Watch the footage from the game; listen to the commentators' comments.

It's hardly surprising. Look at how Hingis got booed off the court after drop-serving Graf at the 1999 French Open.

All that's legal under the rules is not sporting. Look at the Trevor Chappell underarm incident. Exactly the same principle.

The announcers reacted with surprise, not outrage.

Sorry, I don't consider the French tennis fans as my true gauge of what is or is not sporting.

Certainly all that is legal is not sporting, such as deliberately hitting at a person in an attempt to injure them. However, the topic at hand is not at all the same as that no matter how badly you want to believe it is. There is no gamesmanship in hitting a legal shot which for whatever reason embarrasses an opponent. You are by implication saying that I can only hit serves that don't make the receiver look bad. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

In fact, knowing that there are tightly wound people such as yourself out there who are going to get their panties in a wad over a legitimate serving tactic make me want to try it myself just to see them go into a snit. That would be truly epic.

EDIT: I just went back and watched the Graf/Hingis situation. God, you are a drama queen. A small number of people booed but she certainly did not get "booed off the court". An equally large number if not more cheered what she did. Similarly, the announcers didn't have a problem at all as I quote, "they can boo all they want but its a legal serve."

I really have a difficult time taking you seriously now.

Caesar · Sep 1, 2011

beernutz said:
There is no gamesmanship in hitting a legal shot which for whatever reason embarrasses an opponent. You are by implication saying that I can only hit serves that don't make the receiver look bad.

No, I'm saying that most people implicitly understand the spirit of the game is that a sporting serve gives the opponent a fair opportunity to make a play on the ball. For most servers, the underarm serve is virtually a guaranteed free point unless the opponent has reason to expect it.

Trevor Chappell's underarm ball was perfectly legal, but it was considered one of the most disgraceful incidents in the history of cricket.

beernutz said:
In fact, knowing that there are tightly wound people such as yourself out there who are going to get their panties in a wad over a legitimate serving tactic make me want to try it myself just to see them go into a snit. That would be truly epic.

I don't get in a snit. To the contrary, it amuses me. I am never bothered about losing to people who resort to such tactics because they torch their own credibility as sportspeople by resorting to them.

I value my reputation as a sportsman far higher than I value my W-L record.

beernutz said:
EDIT: I just went back and watched the Graf/Hingis situation. God, you are a drama queen. A small number of people booed but she certainly did not get "booed off the court". An equally large number if not more cheered what she did.

She certainly did get booed off the court. Watch the end of the match as they left.

beernutz said:
Similarly, the announcers didn't have a problem at all as I quote, "they can boo all they want but its a legal serve."

Pointing out that a serve is legal is not the same as not having a problem with it.

beernutz · Sep 1, 2011

Caesar said:
No, I'm saying that most people implicitly understand the spirit of the game is that a sporting serve gives the opponent a fair opportunity to make a play on the ball. For most servers, the underarm serve is virtually a guaranteed free point unless the opponent has reason to expect it.

Trevor Chappell's underarm ball was perfectly legal, but it was considered one of the most disgraceful incidents in the history of cricket.

I don't get in a snit. To the contrary, it amuses me. I am never bothered about losing to people who resort to such tactics because they torch their own credibility as sportspeople by resorting to them.

I value my reputation as a sportsman far higher than I value my W-L record.

She certainly did get booed off the court. Watch the end of the match as they left.

Pointing out that a serve is legal is not the same as not having a problem with it.

You are making a huge assumption that she was "booed as she left the court" because of the serving incident. And anyway, the fact that a bunch of French people, many of whom I'm sure did not even play tennis, got their panties in a wad does not impact whether this was unsportsmanlike or not. People boo at tennis matches when someone questions calls but that doesn't make it unsportsmanlike to do that.

The fact that you think some cricket incident has any relevance whatsoever is further evidence that you are grasping at straws to find a coherent argument.

I find it interesting that the announcers had a clear opportunity to point out what an unsportsmanlike tactic Hingis had used (in your opinion) but failed to make any mention of it.

Is it considered "bush" to use non-traditional serves at 4.0 level?

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