Another Instance Of Officiating Error?

Cindysphinx · Oct 3, 2011

This tale comes from an episode at Districts. I didn't see it, but a spectator told me about it.

Player A hit a lob that was sailing well out. As soon as she hit it, she made a sound expressing frustration ("Aaaack!").

Opponent Player B did not catch the ball, and it bounced well outside the court. Player B did not play the ball. Player B did not make an audible or visual out call.

The official monitoring that court awarded the point to Player A. The explanation given was that the Code requires players to make an audible or visual out call.

That ruling cannot possibly be right, can it? I don't think all Code violations are automatic loss of point. Shouldn't the official warn Player B to make audible calls, and then only if it seems to be contributing to a problem of some sort?

kylebarendrick · Oct 3, 2011

Sounds like an extreme application of "if you don't call it out, then it is in". That's one reason why I always at least do a quick "out" hand signal no matter how far out the ball is.

If I was player A in this situation, I'd have probably donated the next point.

NoQuarter · Oct 3, 2011

Wow...that's a tough one....but Player B should have made a call. I can't say that it should have been a point penalty....but Player B probably won't make that mistake again. I have been going over this with my Wife and her team mates all year (this is their first year in league). I'll be playing with them and they will hit one over the fence and I will make the Out call....they say something like "Thanks Captain Obvious"....then I have to explain to them that if I did not make that call, then it is their point.

Cindysphinx · Oct 3, 2011

But the Code doesn't say if you fail to make a call the point goes to the opponent. It could say that, but it doesn't.

I'd hate to see roving officials start to impose point penalties for everything they see that isn't strictly according to the Code.

I mean, if the server fails to announce the score before serving, is that also loss of point?

Nellie · Oct 3, 2011

I think that is a terrible call - the ITF rule 24 say that a player loses the point when the ball lands out. There is no ambiguity. The Code (which operate under the rules) paragraph 15 says you are "entitled" to an prompt audible/visible call, but the paragraph 13 of the Code also, mentions that opponents "should" call their own shots out when obvious.

Douggo · Oct 3, 2011

I'd guess the prevailing logic here is not that the point is awarded to player A for player B's lack of call. Rather, for the failure of player B to return a shot that was assumed in by virtue of having not been called out.

andfor · Oct 3, 2011

Imo This is not a judgement call and should be appealed to the Tournament Referee for a ruling.

JLyon?

Maui19 · Oct 3, 2011

Wow. I often don't call or signal an opponents ball that is clearly out (like several feet long/wide, or blasted into the fence). I feel like that is rubbing it in. However maybe I should make a hand signal regardless of how ridiculously out a ball is.

I also think Cindy asks a good question about officials awarding a point for code violations where the rules don't specify a penalty.

Douggo · Oct 3, 2011

Maui19 said:
Wow. I often don't call or signal an opponents ball that is clearly out (like several feet long/wide, or blasted into the fence). I feel like that is rubbing it in. However maybe I should make a hand signal regardless of how ridiculously out a ball is.

I also think Cindy asks a good question about officials awarding a point for code violations where the rules don't specify a penalty.

See my post above. I think if you don't call the ball out, then it's in. So you lose the point when the ball has bounced twice. Not a penalty.

That said, I'm like everybody else. If it's way out, I assume my opponent has seen it out, and I don't call it.

Oh, and player A, in the spirit of getting the call right, should not have accepted the point. I would assume that's part of the Code.

NoQuarter · Oct 3, 2011

Maui19 said:
Wow. I often don't call or signal an opponents ball that is clearly out (like several feet long/wide, or blasted into the fence). I feel like that is rubbing it in. However maybe I should make a hand signal regardless of how ridiculously out a ball is.

I also think Cindy asks a good question about officials awarding a point for code violations where the rules don't specify a penalty.

I feel the same way...about rubbing it in (see my earlier post about comments I receive). But if you don't then you run into people that will say, "I am entitled to a call".

rjw · Oct 3, 2011

kylebarendrick said:
Sounds like an extreme application of "if you don't call it out, then it is in". That's one reason why I always at least do a quick "out" hand signal no matter how far out the ball is.

If I was player A in this situation, I'd have probably donated the next point.

I'm with you on this....I would have donated the next point. Hopefully it didn't happen at a crucial part of a match.

Rui · Oct 3, 2011

Maui19 said:
Wow. I often don't call or signal an opponents ball that is clearly out (like several feet long/wide, or blasted into the fence). I feel like that is rubbing it in. However maybe I should make a hand signal regardless of how ridiculously out a ball is.

I also think Cindy asks a good question about officials awarding a point for code violations where the rules don't specify a penalty.

The way I operate is: if it's close, I call it. If it's obvious, I use "the finger." Sometimes both. Works for me.

JLyon · Oct 3, 2011

andfor said:
Imo This is not a judgement call and should be appealed to the Tournament Referee for a ruling.

JLyon?

To be honest I am calling a little BS on this story or it is exaggerated since it is coming as a second hand story.
There has to be more to the story, such as did the opponent protest the call, a roving official unless called to court should not be making rulings unless there is a clear mistake such as a clear line-call mistake.

If the ball was obviously out the only thing an official should do is remind the players to make and audible call or a universal hand signal to clarify that the ball was out.

Just can not see a certified official making this type of call, but I would call for the tournament referee and ask about the ruling, there is no dispute on fact I assume that both players agreed the ball was out and the player did not make an audible call, but come on this is league tennis you sound more like an *** if you call an obvious out ball out, it is not juniors.

JLyon · Oct 3, 2011

Douggo said:
See my post above. I think if you don't call the ball out, then it's in. So you lose the point when the ball has bounced twice. Not a penalty.

That said, I'm like everybody else. If it's way out, I assume my opponent has seen it out, and I don't call it.

Oh, and player A, in the spirit of getting the call right, should not have accepted the point. I would assume that's part of the Code.

It is actually against the rules to not accept the penalty or point from the official.

spot · Oct 3, 2011

It is actually against the rules to not accept the penalty or point from the official.

It would be far more fun to curse out the official to get a point penalty to even things out.

rjw · Oct 3, 2011

spot said:
It would be far more fun to curse out the official to get a point penalty to even things out.

Interesting solution!!

jswinf · Oct 3, 2011

Douggo said:
I'd guess the prevailing logic here is not that the point is awarded to player A for player B's lack of call. Rather, for the failure of player A to return a shot that was assumed in by virtue of having not been called out.

Douggo said:
See my post above. I think if you don't call the ball out, then it's in. So you lose the point when the ball has bounced twice. Not a penalty.

The thing about your post above is that I'm pretty sure you meant "the failure of player B to return a shot..." This stuff is confusing enough.

Douggo · Oct 3, 2011

jswinf said:
The thing about your post above is that I'm pretty sure you meant "the failure of player B to return a shot..." This stuff is confusing enough.

You're right. I'll fix it. Thanks.

Cindysphinx · Oct 3, 2011

NoQuarter said:
I feel the same way...about rubbing it in (see my earlier post about comments I receive). But if you don't then you run into people that will say, "I am entitled to a call".

Right. They're "entitled to a call." That doesn't mean they are entitled to a point.

I mean, unless the umpire said, "Player B, what is your call?" and Player B refused to make one, I can't think of an argument for loss of point.

Coach Carter · Oct 3, 2011

kylebarendrick said:
Sounds like an extreme application of "if you don't call it out, then it is in". That's one reason why I always at least do a quick "out" hand signal no matter how far out the ball is.

If I was player A in this situation, I'd have probably donated the next point.

if I had been player B...you mispelled it...I would have detonated on the next point. I would have exploded...

Douggo · Oct 3, 2011

Cindysphinx said:
Right. They're "entitled to a call." That doesn't mean they are entitled to a point.

I mean, unless the umpire said, "Player B, what is your call?" and Player B refused to make one, I can't think of an argument for loss of point.

I would assume as player B, you don't have the luxury of calling a ball out after it has bounced twice on your side.

NoQuarter · Oct 3, 2011

Cindysphinx said:
Right. They're "entitled to a call." That doesn't mean they are entitled to a point.

I mean, unless the umpire said, "Player B, what is your call?" and Player B refused to make one, I can't think of an argument for loss of point.

Yeah...I have never had anyone claim the point....just that they needed a call.

kylebarendrick · Oct 3, 2011

I would assume (under the "calling own shots out" provision of the code) that player A could simply have called thir own shot out at that point and all would have been right in the world. I agree with jlyon that there is something missing in this story.

Big_Dangerous · Oct 5, 2011

Maui19 said:
Wow. I often don't call or signal an opponents ball that is clearly out (like several feet long/wide, or blasted into the fence). I feel like that is rubbing it in. However maybe I should make a hand signal regardless of how ridiculously out a ball is.

I also think Cindy asks a good question about officials awarding a point for code violations where the rules don't specify a penalty.

I feel the exact same way. And I get annoyed when opponents ask on balls like that because I'm like "dude you can't feel that you sprayed the **** out of that ball nor could you tell that it sailed several feet long/wide?!?!"

If it's relatively close I can understand and I always make the call one way or the other.

But balls that aren't even close really don't need a visual or audible signal...

beernutz · Oct 5, 2011

Nellie said:
I think that is a terrible call - the ITF rule 24 say that a player loses the point when the ball lands out. There is no ambiguity. The Code (which operate under the rules) paragraph 15 says you are "entitled" to an prompt audible/visible call, but the paragraph 13 of the Code also, mentions that opponents "should" call their own shots out when obvious.

Code 13 and code 15 are not addressing the same topic. 13 is referring to a player calling their own shots out while 15 is referring to calling an opponent's shots out.

I do agree with you that this is a terrible call by the official. The remedy for not getting something to which you are entitled during a point is not necessarily for the other party to lose the point.

Douggo · Oct 6, 2011

For those of you who don't think loss of point is a fair penalty for failure to make a prompt call, what would you propose would be a fair penalty?

Also, do the roving officials make line calls? If player B had returned the ball, could the official have called it out?

EDIT: From USTA Friend At Court:

FAC Comment VII.D-4: A Roving Umpire should never overrule an extremely
close ball. Players are playing under The Code and are expected to give their
opponents the benefit of the doubt. Therefore, a Roving Umpire should be
reluctant to call a ball out that has been played as good. The overrule of an out
ball that has been played as good may be made only when a Roving Official is
stationed on court.

So I think most of us (not including myself) have been assuming that the official was right there, saw the ball clearly out, and chose to call "failure to make prompt call", rather than calling the ball. It does look like the official would have the discretion to call the ball out.

Big_Dangerous · Oct 6, 2011

Douggo said:
For those of you who don't think loss of point is a fair penalty for failure to make a prompt call, what would you propose would be a fair penalty?

I wasn't there so I have no idea how far out the ball was or was not. However, if it was as far out as people have made it seem, including the op, then that's a time when the official should just mention to the player that you're supposed to signal the ball was out. A simple warning should suffice. I mean pros get a time violation warning before incurring a point penalty for going over the allotted time every now and again.

beeveewee · Oct 10, 2011

The official should have stayed out of it altogether and left it to the players. Generally a roving official should not impose on a match unless appealed to by the players.

Second best would be to call the ball out if it was clearly out. Fairness in competition is the goal of the code, not technicality.

pheonix6579 · Oct 10, 2011

beeveewee said:
The official should have stayed out of it altogether and left it to the players. Generally a roving official should not impose on a match unless appealed to by the players.

Second best would be to call the ball out if it was clearly out. Fairness in competition is the goal of the code, not technicality.

I agree. For one the officials role in this was uncalled for. Two, are we to make audible calls on everything? Like when i am returning serve and my opponent hits his first serve into the net, am i supposed to shout NET! (Which gets old real quick as i have had guys do that to me)

If we are going to be REALLY TECHNICAL the call should have gone to playerB because player A made loud sound that just might have affected the other player (just ask Serena about that one.

andfor · Oct 10, 2011

JLyon said:
To be honest I am calling a little BS on this story or it is exaggerated since it is coming as a second hand story.
There has to be more to the story, such as did the opponent protest the call, a roving official unless called to court should not be making rulings unless there is a clear mistake such as a clear line-call mistake.

If the ball was obviously out the only thing an official should do is remind the players to make and audible call or a universal hand signal to clarify that the ball was out.

Just can not see a certified official making this type of call, but I would call for the tournament referee and ask about the ruling, there is no dispute on fact I assume that both players agreed the ball was out and the player did not make an audible call, but come on this is league tennis you sound more like an *** if you call an obvious out ball out, it is not juniors.

Ditto, I can't believe this thread has any legs left.

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