article on Grace Min in today's NY Times
- Thread starter barnes1172
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Number1Coach
Banned
Like the article said she is a "lab rat" sitting in a lab where over and over the experiments fail ,,my guess she will end up in college .
I like her but without her parents you can hear the distraction in her focus "homesick" so this will add up with losses and she will "probably" throw in the towel and settle for a degree.
Keysmickey
Rookie
"settle for a degree" ??? That' an interesting way of looking at it. LOL.
WARPWOODIE
Rookie
Maybe she had an off day, but a blue chip getting doubled bageled is not a good sign...it suggest to me that there is much work to be done.
Number1Coach
Banned
Travel the world for 10years and when your done teach as a pro at $ 80:00an hr. Or ?
What you describe is super rare, most players who try the pros bail out after a few years with lots of debt. She has a 3.98 GPA so she could attend a top college and her odds of making a good living would be good.
Number1Coach
Banned
If you could I would like to see what the average "starting" income out of college is these days , so if you can come up with a chart or a newspaper article it would be interesting to see .
As for Grace her first obsticle in her mind is her family , these days you want a good shot at it they are the most important substence the USTA wants eliminated . So when your baking a cake and you throw the flower out , good luck .
Number1Coach
Banned
Tennishacker
Professional
Realistic article, we have known Grace since she was twelve, she is the perfect tennis kid, doesn't cheat, no BS on the court, respects opponents, and a super nice person.
I like how the USTA "big wigs" come up with excuses for her, "small, doesn't think points out, etc." Tennis is not as complicated as they make it out to be.
I truly wish her the best, and hope she goes to college.
I like how the USTA "big wigs" come up with excuses for her, "small, doesn't think points out, etc." Tennis is not as complicated as they make it out to be.
I truly wish her the best, and hope she goes to college.
Number1Coach
Banned
Remember she is their "lab-rat" and size is only a bonus
chalkflewup
Hall of Fame
Melanie Oudin no longer trains at RCS. She currently trains in Boca Raton.
Interesting. Still it would be nice if Grace came home to train.
Why do you think she should go to college versus trying her hand at the pros?
I've got to think being 5'4 is a factor and she does need to learn to play a certain way.
Grace could overpower junior players but she isn't going to be able to overpower most people on the WTA.
Do you think height doesn't matter for women players?
Another local Atlanta girl besides Melanie and Grace is Irina Falconi who is even shorter than that. She has been doing relatively well moving up in the WTA each year. I think she is 80 something now, but I've got to think her tiny size may limit how far she is able to go despite being a seriously hard worker, really believing in herself, and having tennis talent.
Tennishacker
Professional
Her game is not suited for the WTA.
New NCAA rules stipulate that she must attend college within 6 months of graduating high school, inorder to receive 4 year scholarship.
Plus, she would be recruited by the very top colleges in the nation.
That free education is priceless!
HIGH-TECH TENNIS
Rookie
We've known Grace (and her awesome Coach Greg) since she was about 10. We were there (though not watching) when she experienced her first double-bagel loss since her preteens.
I don't claim to be an expert, but I say Grace is not a "human laboratory rat, being taught when to make what of shot against what type of opponent." What she IS is a sweet, respectful, super smart girl who would make an unbelievably excellent college player---and I hope that's exactly what happens...
I don't claim to be an expert, but I say Grace is not a "human laboratory rat, being taught when to make what of shot against what type of opponent." What she IS is a sweet, respectful, super smart girl who would make an unbelievably excellent college player---and I hope that's exactly what happens...
Tennishacker
Professional
I'm on the same page as you, USTA P-Mac has no clue what he is talking about Grace's game.
She can't grind againist bigger, stronger, taller WTA players. She needs to learn how to put away balls early in points, develop some big weapons, take more chances...
I know she is at most 5'3'
Good point. Maybe she'll go to Georgia Tech and try to follow in Irina's footsteps.
Can you think of any sub 5'4 women (in recent years) who have been successful at doing that?
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If you ever saw her play you would call Dominika a ball basher. On top of that she does not play close to the baseline and take big swings at the ball.
I have seen her play. She is probably my favorite WTA player of the moment.
I have just seen a lot of matches where she is seemingly outpowered by a bigger opponent though it is awesome when her game is on and she is able to control the points.
I guess I'm just wondering aloud if it is possible for someone so short and small (though Grace has a muscular frame) to dominate the competition with big hitting day in and day out.
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there's hardly any sub 5'4'' pros period.... but I can surely say if she's plays grinding tennis,she will never make pros tennis.. everyone has a personality like all famous artist,it's very distinctive .. I saw her about 3-4 years ago and she was banging shots as big as the pros were,but not as consistent .. that's her style,her personality .. she needs to follow up on who she is,not let people change her..
Number1Coach
Banned
You took that wrong I like Grace a lot she is and awesome kid ,,where she is at is a lab and they are using her to see if what they are doing works. It doesn't ,none the less I hope the best for her .
HIGH-TECH TENNIS
Rookie
No, Number1Coach. I wasn't referring to anything you said. Anyone who knows Grace even a little knows how awesome she is and wants the best for her. I was quoting the article itself, in which the author (?) said she's a human lab rat and I agree that they are under pressure to develop a world class pro, which may or may not mean the same thing as doing what's best for Grace (or any other player).
I say it adds up to waay, waay too much pressure on ANY player and I stand by my comment that I hope Grace comes home to her family and focuses on what college will be the lucky winner!
I say it adds up to waay, waay too much pressure on ANY player and I stand by my comment that I hope Grace comes home to her family and focuses on what college will be the lucky winner!
Tennishacker
Professional
The only pros I can compare her to are the Japanese or Chinese on tour. Though most are big/tall, there was one Japanese, Rika Fujiwara who had a similar built as Grace. Rika is now semi-retired, but did ok on tour.
Best for Grace would be college at a west coast school, (USC, UCLA, Stanford, Berkeley or Pepperdine) where she can enjoy great weather and many, many Korean Restaurants.
She was born in Atlanta, raised in GA, and has never even been to Korea. Why would she need Korean Restaurants?
Tennishacker
Professional
If you were Korean, you would understand
My sister in law is Korean and she didn't understand. She and her 3 kids are more interested in where the best pizza joint is in any town they visit. I have a hunch Grace would be right there beside them!
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ClairHarmony
Rookie
I'm telling you this as a matter of fact. Indian food is the best in the world. Authentic carne asada so hot that your teeth clamor to the ground in anticipation is da boss. Korean and Thai food...ugghh! I don't like a million and one reincarnations of vegetables, and the slightly odd almondy after taste native to all Thai food I've tried. Sushi's not only good for you, it's very calm and pleasing to look at...until the flies come in, and ruin everything!!! Darn you flies, that's why I always carry my handy electrifying fly swatter in my back pocket always. It's in the shape of a tennis racket, so you know it's good for swatting. Great for impressing hot waitress chics at pizza parlors, thwap! "Hey, there cutie!" And, when you get a male waitor, thwap! "No, I will not give you that tip!"
But, you know what I like most of all? Probably Jack Tripper's cooking, if he could really cook. All the cute girls on that show always made it sound like it was soooo delish, even better than Bobbby Flay's? Nah, impossible, no way.
The pizza joint in the world, is a little dive I know. Onions, lots and lots of onions, and ground beef. I feel sorry for vegetarians, but do tend to sympathize with animals too...especially when I see them all penned up and stuff.
You know, truth be told. If you never ever had fried chicken or a mostly all beef hot dog sprinklied with raw onions before, your world would stop, "So, *THIS* is what gourmet tastes like!" Gourmet usually means unusually higher prices, and smaller proportions...but I've often languished long after everyone's left, wondering, is it really better, of just another chance to say I'm different, we're better now than all the rest.
Opinions and tastes vary, but for me the best cooking in the world, is still the one most cherrished. Hard-boiled eggs, don't need no villa in the woods unto yourself for that...cracked open just like mom used to make it. Because you can never forget from where you first...a little bit warm and fuzzy inside.
The Korean Kato Kaelin, but with more talent, Kevin Kim used to play like James Blake lite. Pancake flat strokes with little margin, good foot speed, athleticism, but lots of errors. Strokes would always break down under pressure. He treaded water forever, his career peaked when he adopted a play the percentages mindset. Same strokes, but a little less stubborn; he learned to *refine* his game. 2-3" taller like Blake? And he probably would have reached about the same level of career peak, that is to say, borderline main tour level, but still more on the main tour than the challenger tour. Instead of what he mostly was, mostly on the challenger tour, but sometimes occasionally on the main tour you might see him on an outer court while moving fast to get a hot dog, overpriced bottle of water, and taking a leak to escape the sweltering sun.
2-3" taller, PLUS refining your game, while *not* changing the animal? Goodness gracious! He may have actually cracked the top 50!
The thing is, at all levels, I think this is the hardest yet easiest thing to do. It's just too easy to get stubborn, and insecurely fall in love with embracing the sureness of your inner animal sometimes. James Blake is guilty of this as well, the thing is most who become good enough to even *endeavor* to turn pro in something, usually get there on account of the greatest thing since fried dried tortillas (tostadas) in their neck of the woods. So, it's threatening to the pysche when all your new peers share the same familiar story. You know, when push comes to shove, you can either retreat back into what made you originally great...which is still not half bad at all, all the other crummy human tennis players in the world considered, when compared to you. OR, you can take your foot off the gas pedal to refine, and reevaluate how you envision yourself, 5, 10, 15, 20 years from now. Because the decisions we make today always influence tomorrow. It's just a state of mind, of going egoless and playing free. After awhile, you know how to hit a ball. The tactics in sport our not usually supreme court law of the land altering, they usually ain't THAT complicated. The beauty in sport is that it requires symmetry between brain and brawn, to work in concert. You know, a clear egoless head usually knows what the right thing to do is, at any given moment. When you know how to hit a ball, it's a matter of letting go, to trust yourself, to do it at the right time, in the right place, in the right frame of sublime...*when you arrive.* How did Kevin Kim get there? One day he's treading water for another century with all the other challenger guys stuck in a rut...then, he's built momentum. And, then? He stopped to think about it against former Australian Open champion Thomas Johansson on the ropes and in a foul mood, "HOW! can I lose to the king of challengers! HOW!!! So, I'm gonna just start looking like I'm not even trying or care anymore...oh, wait...he's thinking about the moment, he's choking now! How? Who cares? The Johansson is back, yo!" at the Australian Open, and then, just as quickly seemed to lose it.
Such is life. When a player is in a peak performance state, they don't react callousy stubborn, going down in flames, sticking to their guns, and all that other bluster...they just feel like they know, they just know, they *trust* themselves natively, to do the right thing. They give themselves that credit, and both in the moment and after, they never felt better, they never felt so good...but whatever you do, don't stop to think about it! Sheesh! Because, that'll ruin everything.
At the highest level of everything, life moves so fast, you've got to think slow, slower than the rest sometimes, to just go out there and smile, and do your best. Ultimately, it's just a game. The only real victory worth savoring, is did you try your best, saving your ego for later...for the giant turkey birds to feast on.
A less stubborn and *head*strong Blake, a little bit looser in the soul-reigns department, may have eeked out a single glorious slam in a *perfect* world. It was about as achievable as Kevin Kim reaching top 50 in the world. Possible, but not probable. If you're lacking in some technical areas, the brain is the next best tool for tricking yourself into doing some pretty amazing things. "Sure, I can't serve like Andy Roddick, but I sure can stick my tongue out at him when he serves..." "...what the !#$!?" "Ah, too bad, did the Sandy Roddick, double fault?" "Why, I oughta...!" Of course, being an azz hole isn't always the answer either, "Now, Andy, don't be an az...oh, hey, look it's Jay-Z, and Beyonce', and she's just dropped...her hankerchief!" So, Andy says he won't play Wii with you anymore. Big deal, at least you got the break. Maybe not now, but someday when you're a *$100*/hr. teaching pro, sipping pina coladas with the real housewives of Oregon City, it'll pay off. Oh, trust me, it *will* pay off.
Number1Coach
Banned
I would love to take on Grace ,size is a bonus it can work for you or against you . If she is taught about her size ,taught to study film on other players who were small "henin" and see how they played the court I think she would be fine and make a great living.
Most of our juniors have never sat at a table and study film for and hr strait 2 to 3 times a week to look at players they resemble in size and game . They can learn so much this way spend less time traveling to tourneys and when they show up have decent results.
If anyone is thinking of going pro it's a must.
Tennishacker
Professional
Sir/Madame, you really need to get to a KOREAN RESTAURANT, pronto!
That's a good point.
I always wonder about short female players because my daughter is about Grace's size. Size does not seem to be a disadvantage for girl's in junior tennis but you hardly see any really short women make it to the top of women's tennis, so I wonder if height is really a big factor or not.
I would love to see Grace come back to Atlanta and work with her old coach.
So far, USTA has not had any great successes but we do know of a few players who have done well working with the same coach since childhood.
I guess the big bonus of the USTA is that it is free. However, they should be willing to give Grace a pretty good amount of funding even if she chose to train in Atlanta.
chalkflewup
Hall of Fame
She's had great success under the USTA. People on here get excited about finishing 3rd in a super national and rightfully so, but Grace won the junior US Open. No small feat.
I am talking about great successes on the pro level.
I don't think we can entirely credit the USTA's training for Grace's junior success because she was a heck of a junior player when she was training in Atlanta.
Maybe there is something to the idea that most players need a strong family behind them on a daily basis rather than training far away from home and family. Just wondering aloud.
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USTA did not make this girl good.. she was already a proven winner before she went to USTA.. they just gave her some freebies but not all freebies are a good thing... I haven't seen any of those "USTA elite "" make any sizable dent in their tennis future.. Jack Sock was not an USTA kid.. I thought E.King may have gone far but nothing yet..
I don't want to take anything away from this junior because she sounds like an incredibly hard worker, and a nice kid to boot.
But, why is the USTA throwing all this money at this kid?
In retrospect, no proven champion, and the money could have been used to grow a lot of champions.
Number1Coach
Banned
As part of the team I did not get excited , I made sure that round penny in the box was thrown proptly in the trash , I thought it was and underachievemnet.
come on man he got beat by a better player ,no ? he did good.. maybe if he was on the other side of the draw,he would have gotten the silver ball..
Number1Coach
Banned
The other player was solid I won't take anything from him he played better that day ,,we arfe quite sure next time the result will be diffderent.
As for Grace if anyoned knows her tell her there are those who would love to see her succeed and would love to study film with her to get her to understand what her game can be.
She's a great kid and deserves it .
HIGH-TECH TENNIS
Rookie
I'm definitely not an expert but I completely agree with these points:
- Yes, Grace was already a dynamite player in Atlanta - Coach Greg is one of the most underrated coaches around (I still say she'd be an excellent college tennis player and a champion person but hope she will pass on extreme pressure of going pro).
- Sometimes sending the player away for extended periods is just the wrong thing to do. I recall a discussion with a father who said he would never even consider it because his family was very close and they belonged together.
So I guess to each his own...Still hoping Grace returns (Taylor Townsend too, for that matter) but will support whatever choices they make for sure. Having known them for 6+ years, we know they are such sweet girls!
- Yes, Grace was already a dynamite player in Atlanta - Coach Greg is one of the most underrated coaches around (I still say she'd be an excellent college tennis player and a champion person but hope she will pass on extreme pressure of going pro).
- Sometimes sending the player away for extended periods is just the wrong thing to do. I recall a discussion with a father who said he would never even consider it because his family was very close and they belonged together.
So I guess to each his own...Still hoping Grace returns (Taylor Townsend too, for that matter) but will support whatever choices they make for sure. Having known them for 6+ years, we know they are such sweet girls!
Number1Coach
Banned
She won the USOpen jr. She needs to sit down with some who can point out the player she needs to be and work at it and know she can get it done .
I am sick of all our talented kids being told college is the best thing cause a lot of coaches today haved bought its next to impossible .
Lots of coaches have bought into it being next to impossible because it is next to impossible. The log jam of amazing players around the world who may be good enough to be ranked 200 to 1500 is large and every year the names in that ranking group change as some give up or get injured or get old. But we know that the only players who can make enough money to survive must get into the top 50 or so, and the only players many Americans will remember must be top 10 players. So thats why most coaches steer kids to college, the odds of them making a good living are decent if they go to a good college but very tiny if they try to play professional tennis. By the way it is good you think your student will beat the player who beat him if they play again but I am sure the players he beat also think they will beat him next time. Jared might be thinking he should beat him 0 and 0 next time they play, boys that age all have egos and that is a good thing!
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donnymac10s
Rookie
So true. How are we going to get people in the top-10 in the world if we're too cowardly to push players into the top-300; top-200; top-150; top-100; and top-50. When US dominated the top ranks, we had players all over the rankings. We simply need more players gunning for the pros. THAT's where the USTA needs to help. Hand out grants to players reaching certain rankings. The "carrot" approach. More people would bust their butt - in Jrs. or college - knowing that they could have some support if they reached certain levels.
When the USA dominated tennis it was not the same playing field as it is today. I was a huge tennis fan as a child and remember all the great USA players but I can not remember Mac or Agassi playing a lot of Serbian players and I do not remember Capriati fighting round after round against 6'2" russian tennis babes! The USTA does throw lots and lots of wildcards around and tries to get kids into junior grand slams and all that. Look through the top 1500 and you see a good number of USA players. The reason they are not in the top 50 is that they are not good enough as players. Telling even more USA kids to forget college and try for professional may get us some more people ranked 300 or 600 but not likely to change the top 50 because anyone that good would blow away the college kids and try the pros anyway. I just do not agree that our college tennis teams are filled with players who would be winning championships in the pros had they not gone to college because if they are that good the professional ranks sponsors will find them some how. Just think how much money Nike would make from a USA player winning big tournaments, they are not going to let them play college tennis if they have that level of potential.
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donnymac10s
Rookie
There are a great deal of players (college or jrs) who simply do not try to their maximum potential bc it's pointless given the amount of money required to travel the globe. And, yes, players do get better as they face better competition. It will not happen overnight we need to push more people in the lower ranks, medium ranks, and higher ranks. We can't just bank on the one Roddick making it through every couple of years...we simply need more player who push each other. This is exactly the goal outlined by the Swedish Tennis federation president. They are going through the same thing. They want more players who challenge each other and their levels will rise.
donnymac10s
Rookie
There are a great deal of players (college or jrs) who simply do not try to their maximum potential bc it's pointless given the amount of money required to travel the globe. And, yes, players do get better as they face better competition. It will not happen overnight but we need to push more people in the lower ranks, medium ranks, and higher ranks. We can't just bank on the one Roddick making it through every couple of years...we simply need more player who challenge each other and provide better competition. This is exactly the goal outlined by the Swedish Tennis federation president. They are going through the same thing. They are taking the approach that for the next Borg/Wilander/Edberg to come through, they need more players in the top 500, 300, 100, etc. Eventually, a group of players will come along who will be good enough to break through. I don't like the defeatist attitude espoused by the USTA or a great deal of coaches at all.
Every coach I have ever met has thought they could coach and make the best players in the world and they all claim to have great students who will win big so most are not defeatists. The USTA is not defeatist if anything they are crazy because they spend so much money every year for decades to make the next Sampras. They have a bunch of young players they want to be top players and give them everything from coaching to equipment to wild cards, so how is that defeatist? We live in a free market world and if Nike or Prince thought a kid had talent to be a top professional player they would grab them. But the guys that run sports companies know the odds are very small of a USA child beating all the odds and being #1 and lets face it the average American consumer and casual sports fan will only care if a USA player is great and playing for championships like Rafa does. The sponsors are not defeatist but they are realistic. Maybe some day a USA Federer or Sampras will come along but it will be because they are very very special and not because we send all our college kids out into the land of tennis minor league professional tournaments. The life past the rankings of 150 is horrible with cheap hotels and far away tournaments and would more likely break a player than make him into a top 10 guy. That future USA Federer will likely be scary good when he is a teenager and the hype will make B. Tomic's hype look like small potatoes because the next great USA player will make lots of people a lot of $$$. A USA Rafa would be stuffed full of wildcards and never even give college tennis a smell.
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