This observation may get me banned

N

NetNinja68

Rookie
I just need to call something out I've been consistently noticing over the last couple years about TW's eval scoring on virtually all Babolat racquets. It seems whatever Bab racquet they test, they score through the stratosphere in virtually every category compared to great frames from Head, Wilson, Prince etc...I own a few Bab frames as well as Wilson, Head and Prince and I can tell you there is one from Head and one from Wilson that simply do virtually everything a little better than either the PD or APD! I know $$ is the name of the game and that cool paint jobs, marketing and flashy players like Nadal tend to sell a lot of frames but where do you draw the line for integrity?? The real question is, how do these skewed test scores benefit TW customers?????
 
Cup8489

Cup8489

G.O.A.T.
You're assuming that the TW playtester's opinions are wrong, and yours are right. That's the issue..

Just because you feel that a particular frame is better than any babolat you've played doesn't mean everyone shares that same opinion with you.
 
ollinger

ollinger

G.O.A.T.
No, the real question is how would skewed test scores benefit TW? A racquet sold is a racquet sold, be it Babolat, Prince, Head.......
 
T

TexasTennisbum

New User
I've played with the Babalots, only the control oriented/unpopular Pure Storm GT seemed to have any kind of control. How do higher level players 4.5 and above play with the other Babos? Is there a control/player's racquet from them I am missing out on?

The ones I have tried are out of control for me.
 
M

Mulach

New User
ollinger said:
No, the real question is how would skewed test scores benefit TW? A racquet sold is a racquet sold, be it Babolat, Prince, Head.......
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. One company may offer greater discounts and/or marketing dollars if certain volume is reached. Also, TW may make greater margins on one brand vs. the other irrespective of volume for multiple reasons.

I'm not saying they are biasing their reviews. I'm just saying it may not be true to assume a racquet sold is a racquet sold.
 
N

NetNinja68

Rookie
ollinger said:
No, the real question is how would skewed test scores benefit TW? A racquet sold is a racquet sold, be it Babolat, Prince, Head.......
Click to expand...

It's basic business. Promote your hottest/best selling item. TW is not a non-profit organization. They are in business to sell racquets, the more the better. I also don't know if you are aware but Babolat dicounts their older models very little so margin is less erroded compared to that of their competitors.
 
ryushen21

ryushen21

Legend
You also have to look at this. Babolat builds frames for the modern game. The Aero line and PD line are by far their best sellers and are definitely geared towards players who have play that kind of game. You also have to consider the play style of the testers. A lot of them like a lot of spin and a lot of power and that is exactly what Babolat frames produce. You can't fault the maker for producing what the public wants.

I agree with you, Wilson, Head and the other makers produce some great frames but here's my perspective on this. Wilson makes too many frames. There are just too many options that they have because they are trying to make everyone happy. They could probably pare everything down to the 6.1 line, Blade line and a few select others and up their profits tremendously. However, they sell a ton of racquets so they probably don't really care that they take losses on some since they sell a ton of others. Head is what I think of when I think classic style player frames. Prestige and Radical are their money makers and they have a few other that try to suit the new game.

Honestly, what do you expect the playtesters to say. "This racquet sucks!" Not gonna happen. It's a business and they have to promote things in a way that is conducive to keeping that business alive. So they might embellish some details while omitting others or be very selective in their choice of words about the products they sell. You cannot hold that against them.
 
Viper

Viper

Professional
Well you have to take account they only review 3-4 Bab sticks every 2-3 years. They're reviewing Head, Wilson's, Prince's all year, sometimes even throw away frames that NO ONE will play with.


Also, recently, ALL rackets have been reviewing out of the stratosphere. I remember when it was amazing that the Donnay Pro One OS got a 82-83...now rackets are consistently getting 85s.
 
Ashanti

Ashanti

Rookie
NetNinja68 said:
I just need to call something out I've been consistently noticing over the last couple years about TW's eval scoring on virtually all Babolat racquets. It seems whatever Bab racquet they test, they score through the stratosphere in virtually every category compared to great frames from Head, Wilson, Prince etc...I own a few Bab frames as well as Wilson, Head and Prince and I can tell you there is one from Head and one from Wilson that simply do virtually everything a little better than either the PD or APD! I know $$ is the name of the game and that cool paint jobs, marketing and flashy players like Nadal tend to sell a lot of frames but where do you draw the line for integrity?? The real question is, how do these skewed test scores benefit TW customers?????
Click to expand...

Really cause i see a lot of head and wilson rackets with higher scores then majority of the babolat frames
 
C

CDestroyer

Professional
The reviews on the PD and APD arent that great. **** look at the review of Federers racquet. It has the highest ratings I have read on there.

I feel they do try to hype some of the lesser brands for reasons that I don't know.
 
TW Staff

TW Staff

Administrator
NetNinja68 said:
I just need to call something out I've been consistently noticing over the last couple years about TW's eval scoring on virtually all Babolat racquets. It seems whatever Bab racquet they test, they score through the stratosphere in virtually every category compared to great frames from Head, Wilson, Prince etc...I own a few Bab frames as well as Wilson, Head and Prince and I can tell you there is one from Head and one from Wilson that simply do virtually everything a little better than either the PD or APD! I know $$ is the name of the game and that cool paint jobs, marketing and flashy players like Nadal tend to sell a lot of frames but where do you draw the line for integrity?? The real question is, how do these skewed test scores benefit TW customers?????
Click to expand...

The whole purpose of our playtesting is to give opinions that are not vendor biased. We don't push one vendor or another, but simply supply our customers with our honest opinions and information as we feel that is what they want and deserve.

Spencer, TW.
 
T

TexasTennisbum

New User
NetNinja68 said:
For the advanced player??? You're kidding right?
Click to expand...

So what Babo's are "player's" racquets? I might be missing out on testing something, I did play with the Storm Tour GT for a bit, but it was too muted on my serve.

I thought, perhaps naively, that the Roddick and Aero sticks were too gimmicky up with power to be player's sticks, way out of control or too light.
 
ryushen21

ryushen21

Legend
TexasTennisbum said:
So what Babo's are "player's" racquets? I might be missing out on testing something, I did play with the Storm Tour GT for a bit, but it was too muted on my serve.

I thought, perhaps naively, that the Roddick and Aero sticks were too gimmicky up with power to be player's sticks, way out of control or too light.
Click to expand...

The Storm line is the closest to what most players would consider a "player's frame." The PSLtd is definitely what I would call a "player's frame." I think the first thing that you really have to define for yourself is what is a "player."
 
subz

subz

Rookie
TW play testers are just telling their personal opinion about a certain racquet. You may agree or disagree with them and this is 100% acceptable since we all are different. You do not like Babolat racquets, neither do I except for the pure storm series. But you will see a lot of players around your club that love Pure Drive etc.
Read the TW review knowing well that what is written is based on the opinion of 5 people and not some universal law.Even in their reviews they among themselves don't agree on everything.
To choose a racquet: read the racquet specs and other customer reviews and if possible do a demo and make your own mind.
 
Sreeram

Sreeram

Professional
TW Staff said:
The whole purpose of our playtesting is to give opinions that are not vendor biased. We don't push one vendor or another, but simply supply our customers with our honest opinions and information as we feel that is what they want and deserve.

Spencer, TW.
Click to expand...

I 100% agree with it. I find the reviews very useful. For example the opinion given on the feel of the racquet, control, spin and stability etc are decently honest. They cannot obviously say this racquet is crap in this area but they say enough to give you an Idea.

For example I was looking into Dunlop 200 lite review and was looking to buy one for doubles. The review clearly said that the stock form is not that stable at Net. Which gave me a great clue based on my need.

No racquet is total crap in all areas, if there is an advantage in one then there will be Disadvantage in another.
Babolat produces decent all round racquets, some of their technologies really work like AERO which aids spin. Pure drive and APD are clearly widely appealing one for 3 to 4.5 level players. PD will fit for any style of play.
 
user92626

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Migelowsky said:
Exactly, if you have a store don't you want to promote the item that sells the less? They could have written marvels about this racket and sell more.
Click to expand...

Probably not. I would stock the item less in the first place and allow it to die a natural death. Promote what sells.
 
sruckauf

sruckauf

Professional
One may want to look at the playtesters selected for the reviews that you're testing this theory about - in this case, Babolats - among the different lines.

Is there any consistency to the people they use, and more importantly don't use, for Babolats?
 
O

Overeemforehand-YYR-23

Banned
Mulach said:
Not necessarily. One company may offer greater discounts and/or marketing dollars if certain volume is reached. Also, TW may make greater margins on one brand vs. the other irrespective of volume for multiple reasons.

I'm not saying they are biasing their reviews. I'm just saying it may not be true to assume a racquet sold is a racquet sold.
Click to expand...

NetNinja68 said:
It's basic business. Promote your hottest/best selling item. TW is not a non-profit organization. They are in business to sell racquets, the more the better. I also don't know if you are aware but Babolat dicounts their older models very little so margin is less erroded compared to that of their competitors.
Click to expand...

I think it is the case, they seem to review more some brands than others, many here are brainwashed and only buy what they review.
 
N

NetNinja68

Rookie
Overeemforehand-YYR-23 said:
I think it is the case, they seem to review more some brands than others, many here are brainwashed and only buy what they review.
Click to expand...

Ditto. Any 4.0 + player would laugh you off the court for insisting a PD has the same level of control as a Prestige or Six.One or that a Prestige or Six.One posess the same artificial power as a PD. If you are lacking in strength buy a Bab but if you are already blessed with good strength and athleticism buy a control-oriented players frame regardless of the paintjob or uber-marketing campaign. The reality is, no matter who (I could be an ATP Pro) the opinion spawns from, some defensive little nerd will attack it and take it personally.
 
chay337

chay337

Rookie
NetNinja68 said:
I just need to call something out I've been consistently noticing over the last couple years about TW's eval scoring on virtually all Babolat racquets. It seems whatever Bab racquet they test, they score through the stratosphere in virtually every category compared to great frames from Head, Wilson, Prince etc...I own a few Bab frames as well as Wilson, Head and Prince and I can tell you there is one from Head and one from Wilson that simply do virtually everything a little better than either the PD or APD! I know $$ is the name of the game and that cool paint jobs, marketing and flashy players like Nadal tend to sell a lot of frames but where do you draw the line for integrity?? The real question is, how do these skewed test scores benefit TW customers?????
Click to expand...
Care to share the models of those sticks? I'd love to try them out.
 
dParis

dParis

Hall of Fame
ollinger said:
No, the real question is how would skewed test scores benefit TW? A racquet sold is a racquet sold, be it Babolat, Prince, Head.......
Click to expand...
Poor business acumen.
NetNinja68 said:
It's basic business. Promote your hottest/best selling item. TW is not a non-profit organization. They are in business to sell racquets, the more the better.
Click to expand...
This is more like it.

The real question is why would TW put the brakes on one of their biggest sellers with a poor review? Trust to luck that the potential sale will drift to one of the other brands - and hopefully not purchased from a competitor, or that the uninspired buyer puts off his/her purchase indefinitely ("That new racquet isn't so great. Do I really need to switch from my current racquet? Hmmm...")? Many will still buy something from TW, but it doesn't seem like a way to optimize sales.
 
Last edited:
T

Teski

Rookie
NetNinja68 said:
Ditto. Any 4.0 + player would laugh you off the court for insisting a PD has the same level of control as a Prestige or Six.One or that a Prestige or Six.One posess the same artificial power as a PD. If you are lacking in strength buy a Bab but if you are already blessed with good strength and athleticism buy a control-oriented players frame regardless of the paintjob or uber-marketing campaign. The reality is, no matter who (I could be an ATP Pro) the opinion spawns from, some defensive little nerd will attack it and take it personally.
Click to expand...

Yes because Na Li, Nadal, Roddick et al are not blessed with power and good strength so they must use Babolat. LOL The most ridiculous statements come out from people when they have an aversion to a particular product.
 
pug

pug

Semi-Pro
Teski said:
Yes because Na Li, Nadal, Roddick et al are not blessed with power and good strength so they must use Babolat. LOL The most ridiculous statements come out from people when they have an aversion to a particular product.
Click to expand...


Agreed. Tsonga looks weak and powerless that is why he has to play Babolat. Maybe one day he will be strong enough to use a players frame!
 
Fuji

Fuji

Legend
Meh, I'm a pretty decent level Rec player. (I play 5.0 tournaments and 4.5 league during the year,) and Babolat has consistently built some solid rackets that I've used. The Pure Storm LTD was an amazing racket for me, and it was one of the only rackets that let me play when my elbow was complaining. I'm still using Aero Storm Cortex's, and they are exactly what I need. (They are leaded up of course, but that IS what lead is made for.)

A lot of "High" level players are using them these days. It's just the way it is. I know a few 5.0+ guys that are just using stock Pure Drive's, and they are kicking my butt LOL!

-Fuji
 
Bud

Bud

Bionic Poster
TexasTennisbum said:
So what Babo's are "player's" racquets? I might be missing out on testing something, I did play with the Storm Tour GT for a bit, but it was too muted on my serve.

I thought, perhaps naively, that the Roddick and Aero sticks were too gimmicky up with power to be player's sticks, way out of control or too light.
Click to expand...

How can you judge a frame having never tried it? How many majors have been collected in the past 10-15 years by players using the PS, PD or APD? (Nadal, Clijsters, Li Na, Moya, Schiavone, Stosur, etc.)

The PDR is nearly 12 oz. stock. Many people add 10-15g of lead to their standard PD or APD to boost them to right around 12 oz. They are light enough and head-light enough to customize nicely. I liked the weight and balance of the PDR but it's simply too stiff for me, even with full gut.
 
Last edited:
tlm

tlm

G.O.A.T.
TexasTennisbum said:
I've played with the Babalots, only the control oriented/unpopular Pure Storm GT seemed to have any kind of control. How do higher level players 4.5 and above play with the other Babos? Is there a control/player's racquet from them I am missing out on?

The ones I have tried are out of control for me.
Click to expand...

I agree 100%.
 
O

Overeemforehand-YYR-23

Banned
NetNinja68 said:
It's basic business. Promote your hottest/best selling item. TW is not a non-profit organization. They are in business to sell racquets, the more the better. I also don't know if you are aware but Babolat dicounts their older models very little so margin is less erroded compared to that of their competitors.
Click to expand...

I was browsing through their racquet pages today and I noticed something:

-They also update Babolat/Wilson/Head pages faster than the others, you can already see Julia Goerges on Babolat's page, Azarenka on Wilson's ... bu I don't see Wawrinka nor Bernard Tomic on Yonex racquet's page, Nalbandian isn't even on Yonex page.

-Yonex EZONE Xi racquets came out earlier than Wilson and Head's and they didn't review the ones that came out first but rather Wilson and Head first.

-Also I see TW promoting TFight 320 as Tipsarevic's racquet instead 325 which is his real racquet.


This leads me to think that they do promote some brands more than others.
 
T

TexasTennisbum

New User
Bud said:
How can you judge a frame having never tried it? How many majors have been collected in the past 10-15 years by players using the PS, PD or APD? (Nadal, Clijsters, Li Na, Moya, Schiavone, Stosur, etc.)

The PDR is nearly 12 oz. stock. Many people add 10-15g of lead to their standard PD or APD to boost them to right around 12 oz. They are light enough and head-light enough to customize nicely. I liked the weight and balance of the PDR but it's simply too stiff for me, even with full gut.
Click to expand...

I gave the wrong impression, I have "tested" all the Babos, when I said I've "played" with the pure storm as a main stick.

You know the pro sticks aren't retail, but sure, if customized I guess a Babo could be tamed.
 
I

InfCross

New User
The OP fails

Prestiges and PS90 have the highest TW's ratings.

My stick(PSTGT) which I've chosen after a long demo, is not even reviewed by TW, nor is PSLGT (review on youtube by Spencer only).

I didnt like PDGT nor APDGT, but a lot of ppl in my club love it, its a matter of personal preference.
 
H

Hong

New User
NetNinja68 said:
I just need to call something out I've been consistently noticing over the last couple years about TW's eval scoring on virtually all Babolat racquets. It seems whatever Bab racquet they test, they score through the stratosphere in virtually every category compared to great frames from Head, Wilson, Prince etc...I own a few Bab frames as well as Wilson, Head and Prince and I can tell you there is one from Head and one from Wilson that simply do virtually everything a little better than either the PD or APD! I know $$ is the name of the game and that cool paint jobs, marketing and flashy players like Nadal tend to sell a lot of frames but where do you draw the line for integrity?? The real question is, how do these skewed test scores benefit TW customers?????
Click to expand...

Are you really that bored to troll for your own amusement? Do you go on car forums and call out Car and Driver for rating Fords high and correlating that to the amount of advertising Ford has in their magazine and point out how much better imports are? Or maybe this is more personal than that. Maybe you had your precious little ego crushed by a nerd totting a bab stick at the club when you know that in every measurable way - you were the better man. Wow, maybe you have something here... it IS kinda fun to throw baseless accusations around the interwebs!

Can you offer anything other than your own opinion as to prove bias? What about the PDR getting a score of 85 and the Prestige mid getting 86? Surely the Head is way more than 1 point better than that bab stick! Who cares if one is considered a tweener and the other is meant for a more advanced player... numbers don't lie, amirite broski?

LOL I hope you are banned for the obvious troll that you are.
 
R

recreationalplayer

Semi-Pro
Babolat Success No Accident

After trying Wilson, Donnay, Wilson again and two back to back Volkl’s I tried Babolat. Best decision on tennis equipment I ever made. But it isn’t just my opinion that counts. I live close to Winston-Salem NC, home of Wake Forest University, and I have seen some excellent college level tennis there. I have observed that at almost all matches, if not all, one will see more players using Babolat’s than any other brand. Is that an accident, do college players who depend on scholarship’s use Babolat because of the paint job, as you seem to imply, or because of improved play?

It is no accident that Babolat is now one of the most popular racquets on the market, remember, 20 years ago Babolat was only a string. My personal opinion about Wilson is that they repackage essentially the same product every year with a different paint job and a few minor variants in materials, but marketing new materials and designs is what drives the sale of racquets, but who does that more egregiously than the other is a topic for another day. I just believe it is no accident that players of all skill levels have found Babolat to be the one for them.
 
R

Ramon

Legend
The reason I buy from TW when I have comparable choices elsewhere is because of their useful reviews. Have you seen the reviews from their competitors? TW's reviews are about as candid as you will find from an internet retailer.

They described early PD's as having a hollow feel. They said the AST had hot spots. They APD didn't have many negative comments, but there's a reason why it's such a big seller, and it sitll didn't score as highly as some other racquets from other manufacturers.

It must be hard to be candid when your business depends on the sales of the products you review, but I think TW does it despite the pressure they probably have to do otherwise.
 
Bartelby

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
I would submit that TW reviews are good, but that over time a slight hint of reverence creeps in when it comes to lines that garner considerable prestige from sales or otherwise.

The first reviews of the pd and the apd were very good, but now they're off the charts. It's hard to believe they have become that much better.

The reality is that the reviewers know what racquets they're reviewing and that has an effect on expectations and scores.
 
T

Teski

Rookie
recreationalplayer said:
After trying Wilson, Donnay, Wilson again and two back to back Volkl’s I tried Babolat. Best decision on tennis equipment I ever made. But it isn’t just my opinion that counts. I live close to Winston-Salem NC, home of Wake Forest University, and I have seen some excellent college level tennis there. I have observed that at almost all matches, if not all, one will see more players using Babolat’s than any other brand. Is that an accident, do college players who depend on scholarship’s use Babolat because of the paint job, as you seem to imply, or because of improved play?

It is no accident that Babolat is now one of the most popular racquets on the market, remember, 20 years ago Babolat was only a string. My personal opinion about Wilson is that they repackage essentially the same product every year with a different paint job and a few minor variants in materials, but marketing new materials and designs is what drives the sale of racquets, but who does that more egregiously than the other is a topic for another day. I just believe it is no accident that players of all skill levels have found Babolat to be the one for them.
Click to expand...

Very good response with actual facts rather than so much of the bs supposition that spread throughout this thread.
 
N

nomie

New User
Bartelby said:
I would submit that TW reviews are good, but that over time a slight hint of reverence creeps in when it comes to lines that garner considerable prestige from sales or otherwise.

The first reviews of the pd and the apd were very good, but now they're off the charts. It's hard to believe they have become that much better.

The reality is that the reviewers know what racquets they're reviewing and that has an effect on expectations and scores.
Click to expand...

Good observations. Would be great if TW did reviews with blacked-out frames.
 
klementine

klementine

Hall of Fame
It's rather easy to 'read between the lines' in any given review. Voice inflection, choice of words, body language, etc....
 
klementine

klementine

Hall of Fame
nomie said:
Good observations. Would be great if TW did reviews with blacked-out frames.
Click to expand...


Blacked out frames would be better than blind-fold tennis. :smile: Video reviews by forum members/customers, submitted, selected and attached to the official review would be ideal as well.
 
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