pronation drill

D

decades

Guest
HunterST, have you ever taught beginners how to serve? or intermediates how to improve their serve? If you have then you will know that pronation does not just pop out of thin air and has to be taught.

Take into account also that not everyone can throw a tennis ball. You'll run into this if you're coaching adults.
With juniors, throwing a tennis ball, a baseball or a football for example and serving does not always relate. It can be very different for a person to throw a ball and serve with a racket in their hand.

IF you're somewhat athletic, if you played baseball and football and have Learned to throw properly, then you are in a "position" to learn to pronate in tennis. I agree that it doesn't come naturally. But once you put certain building blocks in place, like proper stance, proper trophy position, tossing arm extended, conti grip, shoulder turn, then pronation follows somewhat naturally from all that. I believe that even if you put all the building blocks in place, you can still work on "feeling" the pronation and making it automatic and more pronounced.

how many times have you heard someone tell someone "you throw like a girl", be it a baseball or football? It proves that throwing doesn't come naturally either. you have to learn how to throw it.
 
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Rozroz

G.O.A.T.
start slow and easy at the service line.
hold racquet at top of handle, and do the pronation VERY SOFTLY,
just managing the ad court with the ball.
do this 100 times.
now go back to 'no man's land" on court. hold racquet at middle of handle and do another 100 SOFT pronations.
finally go to the baseline and start doing proper but still EASY SOFT serves with pronation.

after this at least you'll have the feel of the motion within the serve.
 

boramiNYC

Hall of Fame
Actually, I think pronation can be a natural thing. Just so much talk and teachings about pronation have made it sound something strange. To someone with excellent coordination and motivation pronation will happen eventually without any teaching.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
I kinda agree that pronation is quite a natural thing. If you hit the ball on your sideway and aim the racket to go toward the side net pole, pronation is inevitable. In fact, keeping the arm from turning/pronating is impossible.
 

toly

Hall of Fame
I kinda agree that pronation is quite a natural thing. If you hit the ball on your sideway and aim the racket to go toward the side net pole, pronation is inevitable. In fact, keeping the arm from turning/pronating is impossible.
I could do it. Many years I was using supination instead of pronation and no coach was able to figure out what was wrong with my pathetic serve.:(
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
I could do it. Many years I was using supination instead of pronation and no coach was able to figure out what was wrong with my pathetic serve.:(

You mean you couldn't, right?

As I said above, it's very unnatural and right down awkward to throw a football and in the follow-through keep your palm straight in the karate chop.

It's natural that in the followthrough your palm should face the ground (or slightly angle to the side fence). That's pronation, right?
 

boramiNYC

Hall of Fame
two things: excellent coordination and unstoppable motivation to get better and better. With these anyone can figure out all the secrets and become top athlete even with no teaching. Of course before they die that is.
 

Ducker

Rookie
If you want to build up muscle strength for pronation get a dumbell and take the weight of one side. Grab the bar side and pronate your wrist both ways slowly. work in as much weight as you want and slowly go heavier and heavier.

I do this now and then on my days off tennis but only as a way to help prevent injury
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Ducker,

I bought this thing called Iron Arms. Do multiple sets of 10s each way and you'll feel good. In fact I'm using it to get rid of a minor elbow ache that I got from deal poly.


Iron%20Arms.jpg
 

toly

Hall of Fame
You mean you couldn't, right?

As I said above, it's very unnatural and right down awkward to throw a football and in the follow-through keep your palm straight in the karate chop.

It's natural that in the followthrough your palm should face the ground (or slightly angle to the side fence). That's pronation, right?
Pronation is natural for American kids because they like playing football and baseball. Russian kids like soccer and hokey and pronation is unnatural to them. In Russia I even never heard the term pronation. I learned pronation hard way and still uncomfortable with this motion. But, I’m old man. :(
 

Bobby Jr

G.O.A.T.
I think it's high time charliefedererer drew up a knowledge base on the ins and outs of serving, the pitfalls, the key elements etc.

It would an invaluable tool for learning about serves imo. I've seen so many comments from him/her- with great images or videos - that have perfectly identified the exact issue(s) at hand (including when I posted my own serve video). It makes for really good viewing/reading imo.
 
Pronation is natural for American kids because they like playing football and baseball. Russian kids like soccer and hokey and pronation is unnatural to them. In Russia I even never heard the term pronation. I learned pronation hard way and still uncomfortable with this motion. But, I’m old man. :(

Even here in the USA I see plenty of self taught players who supinate on the serve.

They know they have to get spin on the ball.

Instead of pronating though, they "carve" around the outside the ball - actually supinating.

It does generate a spin serve - side and top spin - but of course the real "pop" you get from pronating is missing.


(Hope you don't mind my using your great photo of Stosur's pronation on her kick serve earlier in this thread.)
 

toly

Hall of Fame
Even here in the USA I see plenty of self taught players who supinate on the serve.

They know they have to get spin on the ball.

Instead of pronating though, they "carve" around the outside the ball - actually supinating.

It does generate a spin serve - side and top spin - but of course the real "pop" you get from pronating is missing.


(Hope you don't mind my using your great photo of Stosur's pronation on her kick serve earlier in this thread.)
I am very glad that you are using my work. :):):)
 
=sportsfan1;6431740]Thanks for this explanation!
1) "backscratch racquet drop should be to the right side instead of middle of the back" : Exactly, I am doing this wrong. I need to change to the right side.

Not only is the racquet well to the right side to set up pronation, all the pros set up the later pronation movement by supinating at the deepest racquet drop. So in that sequence of Stosur serving, in pic 1 she has supinated so that you can see the full stringbed as a sign of that supination - if she had just reached full racquet drop without supinating, the string bed would be harder to see - as it is harder to see in pics 7, 8, 9 where the supination has reverted to a neutral phase, so that rather than seeing the wide expanse of string bed, you see just the edge of the frame.

You can see the same supination in the Sampras racquet drop in pic 12:
sampras_serve_04_0402.jpg

(As well as clear alignment of the racquet along the right side of the body - no back scratch in the middle of the back here.)

Most consider supinating at racquet drop to be an "advanced" technique.

But supinating at maximum racquet drop sets up a "feeling of tension" that cannot be sustained as you start to "throw the butt of the racquet at the ball" - you've already started to pronate as you go from supinated to neutral.
And that makes it easier to continue from neutral to pronation.

You may want to try this - supinating in the racquet drop - to see if it helps you to subsequently pronate.


2) "Initial move up from deepest backscratch is pulling your racquet butt straight up at the ball": I was trying to visualize the 'L' shape and watching the edge of the racquet to the ball, but stuff happens so fast that it's impossible to watch. Thinking about pulling the racquet butt at the ball sounds more promising.

Just about everyone has heard about "hitting up the mountain" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlPVdppfYGs

Well "hitting up the mountain" means directing the body and the arm in an upward direction.

Yet many stick to the preconceived notion that they have to hit the ball forward (rather than up) - so they start to direct the racquet forward way too early.

But that photo sequence of Stosur shows how she "pulls the butt of the racquet straight up at the ball"and fully extends her elbow before much of the pronation right to left "slap" occurs.

Looking at it from the side, you can actually see that the racquet is not pulled
perfectly straight up:

35j9jxz.jpg

But in pics 4-6 the racquet butt is essentially pulled up at the ball, with the small forward deviation a consequence that the shoulder angle has gone from front shoulder up in pic 4, to front shoulder down in pic 5, and more down in pic 6.


And you are certainly right that the racquet speed during pronation is such a blurr that the mechanism can only be captured with high speed video, verry fast shutter speeds, or strobe photography:
strobe-tennis-serve-1.jpg




3) I am trying to learn to complete pronation with the butt cap pointing to sky as Coach McCraw shows (with a ball resting on the butt cap), or "inverted U" as FYB puts it, or as shown in the Sampras video at 2:58 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DpptgXq5j4&t=2m58s). I have done the drill to pronate and trap the ball against the wall to get pronation feel, however the complete action with butt cap pointing to the sky remains very elusive :(. I should try McCraw's drill) - this looks more complex to nail down than other parts of the serve. Any idea on how many repetitions of the drill on average it takes to learn this?

Ash has already answered this - we're lucky to have such an experienced tennis pro comment.


But if you can get a "feel" of what pronation feels like from Coach Mcraw's drill, it should subsequently be easier to add pronation into your service motion. (And don't be too worried if your racquet is not as fully inverted as McCraw's or Sampras's - they are pros who have been doing this a long time. Indeed, striving too hard could hurt your shoulder.)

But because you also have to "unlearn" you previous "muscle memory" of how you used to serve, consider doing the serve motion even in your back yard without a ball to try and at least get the "feeling" of the full service motion before trying to add it in along with a ball toss from the service line at the court.

The next step may be to hit serves just into the back fence with your whole new motion, rather than getting frustrated by trying to get your serves in from the service line. (Indeed, it is all too easy to revert back to your old motion by stepping up to the service line and trying to get your serves in too soon.)


You would be a most unusual athlete if this all comes very easily.

But ... good luck! You'll get there!
 

Kevo

Legend
It even looks like he hits the ball down!

It's a fine line between hitting forward and hitting down. It does feel like hitting down on the ball to me, and I like to do drills with kids where they try to use there regular service motion and make the ball hit the bottom of the net.

The swing is directed upward, but pronation and rotation of the arm directs the racquet into the ball and immediately down so that the tip of the frame points to the court. Then the arm follows through as a result of momentum. Too many people try to swing there arm through the ball and they lose the leverage and additional speed that pronation provides.

As for whether the ball is really hit down, I would say that it can be, but only if you hit it pretty hard and have a high contact point. Discounting gravity, a ball hit from a height of just over 9 feet will clear the net and land in when hit on a downward trajectory. However, in real life, you have gravity causing the ball to fall as it travels as well as drag causing it to slow down. I don't really have the desire to work out the more complicated math, but I would bet that if you were able to put a super high speed camera on flat first serves of pro players, many of them would have a downward trajectory. Unfortunately I think you'd need a camera that shoots more than 1000fps to capture the precise moment of impact.
 
Charlie and all,

About hitting up vs hitting forward, can you guys watch and tell me what Roddick does?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZC_uAGut9s&feature=related

It even looks like he hits the ball down!

I don't think the video has enough resolution to tell.


To see how fine the resolution would need to be to see it, check out the following sequence of Sampras serving:

pete_20serve_202.jpg


Ball inpact is at pic 3.

But note that his racquet is just ever so slightly higher in the next pic. (In pic 4, the racquet tip is slightly above the net in the background.)


So my definition of "hitting up" means you are "hitting from low to high".

Hence, Sampras is "hitting up" in that his racquet is lower in pic 2 than at impact in pic 3. And his racquet is still ever so slightly going up in pic 4.


Thus, I consider pretty accurate this superimposition of Sampras's racquet and a ball onto a time lapse photo of his serve, with each blue dot taken at the same time interval throughout a swing.

Set_2060.jpg




Now you may see pictures of servers taken from the side in which the server's racquet face is pointed slightly down at impact.

The following is one of Sampras, with that same racquet path superimposed:

tennis-serve-technique-sampras.jpg


But even if the racquet's face is pointed down (as it will be at contact for serves in which you toss into the court), THE PATH OF THE RACQUET MAY STILL BE GOING UP - as seen above.


As an analogy, groundstrokes are often hit with the racquet slanted down (as seen from the side.)

An example is below, where you can clearly see Rafa's racquet beveled down at impact in pic 7.

7ory1234620588.jpg


But from the racquet head being lower in pic 6, and higher in pics 7 and 8, we know he is hitting "low to high".



I remember an article on tennisplayer.net that analyzed different player's spin on their first [heretofore erroneously called flat] serve.

The spin rate for Sampras's first serve was the highest of the pros of that era - something like 3,000 revolutions/minute.

The direction of the spin was neither pure side spin or pure topspin - it was somewhere in between, though with more side than topspin.

And that makes sense - we see first serves usually have some sidespin - and while the topspin is harder to detect, it helps explain that getting that topspin even on a first serve can result in high first serve percentages.

(It also may explain why players often said Sampras's serve seem to "explode" after hitting - much like someone hitting a "heavy" ball.)

It now also makes sense seeing pics of the racquet head rising (above) to account for the topspin, and for the racquet head moving from right to left in the pronation movement.


A subsequent analysis some years later showed Roddick had not only slightly higher serve speed than Pete, but also slightly higher spin rates.



So hitting "up" on your serve not only is necessary for most servers less than those posessing the stature of Karlovic.
The topspin inherent in hitting up on the ball would improve the first serve percentage even of giants.
And the ball action coming off the court can give the returner fits.
 
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After I was finished the above post, I ran across this photo sequence of Roddick serving. I think if you look very closely the racquet tip in pic 12 is just very slightly higher than at impact in pic 11.

10qhpvd.jpg


(Also note the racquet face is tilted somewhat down. But the path of the racquet is low to high.)
 
Practiced a couple of times this week, weather and time permitting. Here are some thoughts:

1) Grip: This is quite basic, but the key is to start with the continental grip, maybe even cheat over a tiny little bit to the eastern backhand grip? Anything tending to eastern forehand will only lead to "pancake" motion,as I was reminded watching David W. Smith's () video.

2) I can do the drills - example pronating against the fence, or just hitting serves against the backboard/fence as recommended by CharlieFederer (it's really surprising how well you can hit when you take the whole thought of getting the ball into the service box out :) - advantages of working on one aspect at a time ). However, it will take some practice to get the pronation with power and accuracy in a complete serve motion. Practice, and more practice as time permits...

3) How *do you know* whether you are getting the complete pronation motion (all the way to pointing the racquet head down, or as close to it as you can) correctly in a full service motion? I guess the only way is to video your serves with the right equipment & software (and then the time aspect again factors in)?

4) If I compare my baseball pitch motion with my serve, there's a difference in how the core moves and where the power's coming from, so need to work on that as well... Even a slight pause in the backscratch position will likely lead to arming the serve. I gotta do some shadow serves ensuring correct kinetic chain. SystemicAnomaly puts it best in this sentence "the elbow/arm lags behind a bit which results in a pectoral stretch. When this pectoral stretch is released, the arm starts to accelerate faster than the torso rotation." (originally from the "Serving kinetic chain" thread http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3011230&postcount=9)
 
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Practiced a couple of times this week, weather and time permitting. Here are some thoughts:

1) Grip: This is quite basic, but the key is to start with the continental grip, maybe even cheat over a tiny little bit to the eastern backhand grip? Anything tending to eastern forehand will only lead to "pancake" motion,as I was reminded watching David W. Smith's () video.

2) I can do the drills - example pronating against the fence, or just hitting serves against the backboard/fence as recommended by CharlieFederer (it's really surprising how well you can hit when you take the whole thought of getting the ball into the service box out :) - advantages of working on one aspect at a time ). However, it will take some practice to get the pronation with power and accuracy in a complete serve motion. Practice, and more practice as time permits...

3) How *do you know* whether you are getting the complete pronation motion (all the way to pointing the racquet head down, or as close to it as you can) correctly in a full service motion? I guess the only way is to video your serves with the right equipment & software (and then the time aspect again factors in)?

4) If I compare my baseball pitch motion with my serve, there's a difference in how the core moves and where the power's coming from, so need to work on that as well... Even a slight pause in the backscratch position will likely lead to arming the serve. I gotta do some shadow serves ensuring correct kinetic chain. SystemicAnomaly puts it best in this sentence "the elbow/arm lags behind a bit which results in a pectoral stretch. When this pectoral stretch is released, the arm starts to accelerate faster than the torso rotation." (originally from the "Serving kinetic chain" thread http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3011230&postcount=9)

"Up the Mountain" excerpt from Serve Doctor presents: M.P.H. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlPVdppfYGs
Right at the beginning of the video, Pat Dougherty emphasizes that the best analogy to serving is pitching in an upward direction.

So serving is less like pitching to a catcher, and more like throwing a ball to a fan in the upper deck!


Jim McLennan would agree with you that "rehearsing your serve" is a great idea:
Rehearsing the Serve http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUeCEfUwyq4



Even after the serve motion starts to feel good when "rehearsing", players often have difficulty timing their swing to their toss.
Well, don't time your swing to your toss!
Instead, time your toss to your swing! - Work to find that perfect toss height so your swing just flows:
Tossing into the Swing http://www.essentialtennisinstruction.com/tossing-into-the-swing/
 
"Up the Mountain" excerpt from Serve Doctor presents: M.P.H. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlPVdppfYGs
Right at the beginning of the video, Pat Dougherty emphasizes that the best analogy to serving is pitching in an upward direction.

So serving is less like pitching to a catcher, and more like throwing a ball to a fan in the upper deck!


Jim McLennan would agree with you that "rehearsing your serve" is a great idea:
Rehearsing the Serve http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUeCEfUwyq4



Even after the serve motion starts to feel good when "rehearsing", players often have difficulty timing their swing to their toss.
Well, don't time your swing to your toss!
Instead, time your toss to your swing! - Work to find that perfect toss height so your swing just flows:
Tossing into the Swing http://www.essentialtennisinstruction.com/tossing-into-the-swing/


The website you linked also has this pronation drill from McLennan with the racquet pronating & hitting the net strap (perhaps can use the back of a chair as well):

http://www.essentialtennisinstruction.com/the-pete-sampras-snap/

He also highlights nicely the difference between arm coming through on the serve versus arm going up and the racquet coming through with forearm rotation (@ 1m:55s in this video above). IIRC, David Smith, also from TennisOne, says that the racquet should be leading the arm with acceleration, instead of the arm pulling the racquet through (may need correction or exact wording here). I think it's also good to have posted pics sequence go through all the way to the end of the swing instead of stopping at contact.
Understanding this really looks to be one of the key aspects of pronation.

Thanks for all the explanations, understanding stuff really helps instead of me practicing the wrong serve action :shock: !

In the serve doctor video @18seconds, the shoulder over shoulder action and the upper torso rotation is very impressive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlPVdppfYGs&t=18s
 

Kevo

Legend
charliefederer makes a good point about the swing being up even though the ball may be impacted by a slightly closed racquet face, and therefore "hit down".

I like to gauge how well I'm pronating by the feel of the follow through. I try to swing up with my arm and not through the ball with my arm. I hit through the ball with pronation which carries the momentum of my swing towards the ground and pulls my arm down as it follows the racquet. This naturally leaves you in the classic Sampras high elbow position as illustrated in post 64. It's frame 9 and 10 in the black and white sequence. If your elbow doesn't end up higher than your hand as you finish the motion, then it's not flowing properly.
 

Power Player

Bionic Poster
You mean you couldn't, right?

As I said above, it's very unnatural and right down awkward to throw a football and in the follow-through keep your palm straight in the karate chop.

Its not as awkward as you think if you come from a baseball background and played a lot of shortstop. Thats what got me.
 
Which muscles are involved in 'pronation'?

Oftentimes, terms come to have a meaning that is different from their original "scientific" meaning.

"Pronation" is one of those terms.

Ask any tennis pro or advanced tennis player, and he will be able to demonstrate "pronation" as a movement that is occomplished with the muscles of the shoulder area responsible for internal rotation of the shoulder.


"Internal Rotators of the Shoulder
- major internal rotators are teres major, latissimus, pect major;
- latissimus dorsi & teres major insert along medial lip of bicipital groove & pectoralis major along lateral lip and also serve as internal rotators;
- these muscles comprise larger mass than those that externally rotate the humerus which explains greater power
of internal rotation"
- http://www.wheelessonline.com/ortho/internal_rotators_of_the_shoulder

back_muscle.jpg


pectoralis%20major2.jpg



internal_rotation.jpg






"WRONGGGG!!!!" will scream every anatomy professor.

"Pronation" has no place in discussing shoulder movement!!!

"Pronation" should be reserved for movement in the forearm:
" In the forearm, pronation is the movement of turning the palm over to face downwards (or backwards if starting in anatomical neutral)."
- http://www.teachpe.com/anatomy/movements.php

Ch73-1.jpg




So who is right, tennis players or anatomy professors?



Here's my take:

Tennis coaches noted that during the service motion, the forearm is turned over, so they used the term "pronation".
They didn't care that the actural anatomical movement is really going on at the shoulder in a way that would be called "internal rotation of the shoulder" by anatomy professors.

The term "pronation" for this movement during the serve caught on in tennis circles.


Since the role of language is to convey ideas/concepts, for tennis players it is too late to try and replace "internal rotation of the shoulder" for "pronation".

Besides, "internal rotation of the shoulder" is just not a "catchy phrase".

"pronation" just seems to have so much more cachet.

And "internal rotation of the shoulder" takes too long to say.

Tennis players have more important things to do with their time.

Like play tennis!
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
...........................
"Internal Rotators of the Shoulder
- major internal rotators are teres major, latissimus, pect major;
- latissimus dorsi & teres major insert along medial lip of bicipital groove & pectoralis major along lateral lip and also serve as internal rotators;
- these muscles comprise larger mass than those that externally rotate the humerus which explains greater power
of internal rotation"
- http://www.wheelessonline.com/ortho/internal_rotators_of_the_shoulder
..............................................................................
"Pronation" should be reserved for movement in the forearm:
" In the forearm, pronation is the movement of turning the palm over to face downwards (or backwards if starting in anatomical neutral)."
- http://www.teachpe.com/anatomy/movements.php
....................................................................................
The term "pronation" for this movement during the serve caught on in tennis circles.

Since the role of language is to convey ideas/concepts, for tennis players it is too late to try and replace "internal rotation of the shoulder" for "pronation".
.......................................

That's the role of language and why its central to first define the words.

How about the new tennis players who would like a more accurate understanding of the term 'pronation' as various tennis players might be meaning it given the sport's history, tennis coach usage, etc. ? People will most often now search on the smartphone or computer.

When they see 'pronation' what term should they search?

(I was very interested and misunderstood what tennis 'pronation' meant for decades!)
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Error in illustration

.......................................................
back_muscle.jpg

....................................................
I just noticed that this particular illustration has an error in showing where the lat muscle attaches(inserts) on the upper arm. The lat attaches to the front of the arm (at the "medial lip of the intertubercular grove of the humerus"). The illustration incorrectly shows the lat going across the back of the upper arm.

For the Serve. Since the lat is the largest muscle attached to the arm and probably contributes more power to racket head speed on the serve than any other muscle its structure is important. As described in the CF reply, the pec attaches on the outer(lateral) side of the upper arm and the lat attaches right next to it on the inner(medial) side. When these two powerful muscles are first stretched and then contract the shoulder can internally rotate very rapidly.
 
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toly

Hall of Fame
Toly, These are great pics, very clear! It would be great if you have and could post pics of the remaining sequence of that serve, i.e the completion of pronation to followthrough.
This is Anderson flat serve follow through.:)

4rpcg6.jpg
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Is racket open or closed at impact for most serves?

This is Anderson flat serve follow through.:)

4rpcg6.jpg

In frames #1,2 & 3 above of the Anderson serve the racket goes from open to closed around the time of impact. For most serves - flat, slice, kick - do you think that the racket is a little open, neutral or closed at impact? Any links with high speed videos? Is the racket a little closed at impact? This is hard to see unless the video is from the side (viewing parallel to the baseline).

I had looked at a kick serve of Stosur's from mostly a back viewpoint and her trunk and arm seemed well forward of vertical as above but I could not be sure about the racket. ? But the racket as in this nice display above might be viewed from a different angle than in the Stosur serve video I had seen. ?
 
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toly

Hall of Fame
In frames #1,2 & 3 above of the Anderson serve the racket goes from open to closed around the time of impact. For most serves - flat, slice, kick - do you think that the racket is a little open, neutral or closed at impact? Any links with high speed videos? Is the racket a little closed at impact? This is hard to see unless the video is from the side (viewing parallel to the baseline).

I had looked at a kick serve of Stosur's from mostly a back viewpoint and her trunk and arm seemed well forward of vertical as above but I could not be sure about the racket. ? But the racket as in this nice display above might be viewed from a different angle than in Stosur's serve. ?

I think the pros usually hit a tennis ball a little higher than at the equator, but I'm not sure.

In many cases they apply wrist ulnar deviation with pronation angle around 45°. This motion drugs the ball upward and provides more horizontal trajectory of the ball even if the racquet is slightly closed.

1fhkas.jpg
 
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5263

G.O.A.T.
Even here in the USA I see plenty of self taught players who supinate on the serve.

They know they have to get spin on the ball.

Instead of pronating though, they "carve" around the outside the ball - actually supinating.

It does generate a spin serve - side and top spin - but of course the real "pop" you get from pronating is missing.


(Hope you don't mind my using your great photo of Stosur's pronation on her kick serve earlier in this thread.)
I believe Jeff Salsy teaches that sup serve for the out wide slice, but not sure.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Watching the ball at impact on these serves?

...........................
1fhkas.jpg

Change of subject

Ball Watching:
# 1,2,3,4,7,12 - not looking at the ball at impact
# 5,8,10,11 - looking at the ball
(# 6, 9 - not shown)

6 are not looking at the ball and just 4 are! I have seen this more often than I expected in other videos possibly more so on the kick serve. ?
 

Kevo

Legend
Change of subject

Ball Watching:
# 1,2,3,4,7,12 - not looking at the ball at impact
# 5,8,10,11 - looking at the ball
(# 6, 9 - not shown)

6 are not looking at the ball and just 4 are! I have seen this more often than I expected in other videos possibly more so on the kick serve. ?

It doesn't really matter if they at looking at the ball or not. I think whether you are looking at the ball at contact probably has more to do with how flexible your neck and shoulders are than anything else.

I've tried serving with my eyes closed before. I always made contact with the ball. If I just close my eyes right as I start my upward swing, my serve was only a little less effective than normal. I think the difference is just nervousness about swinging with my eyes closed.

The thing is that the actual swing and contact with the ball is so fast as long as your brain registers the location of the ball at the peak of the toss you can easily hit it with your eyes closed. It just feels strange and a bit awkward.
 

toly

Hall of Fame
Change of subject

Ball Watching:
# 1,2,3,4,7,12 - not looking at the ball at impact
# 5,8,10,11 - looking at the ball
(# 6, 9 - not shown)

6 are not looking at the ball and just 4 are! I have seen this more often than I expected in other videos possibly more so on the kick serve. ?
This is #9.
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Kevo

Legend
I like that sequence. It really shows how much the frame turns into the ball versus the arm swinging through contact. Who is in that sequence? I can't tell.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Well, the REASON we hit flat serves with a conti grip is so the racket can do it's loop, it's preswing, and most of it's prehit, with a closed face, narrow aerodynamic leading edge.
THEN, we open up the face, by pronating, and hit the flat ball. The followthru matters little, as an open face slows down allowing you to recover.
 

toly

Hall of Fame
Well, the REASON we hit flat serves with a conti grip is so the racket can do it's loop, it's preswing, and most of it's prehit, with a closed face, narrow aerodynamic leading edge.
THEN, we open up the face, by pronating, and hit the flat ball. The followthru matters little, as an open face slows down allowing you to recover.
Aerodynamic has absolutely nothing to do with continental grip, serve, or whatever. You better forget about that at all.

Aerodynamic takes care about the ball and doesn’t care about the racquet.:)
 
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LeeD

Bionic Poster
Sorry, you're wrong.
It might be a by product, I'll agee.
But it's real.
Hold your racket eForehand grip, and swing as fast as you can. Ball goes OK, not great.
Now hold conti and pronate into the ball. Ball goes great.
You might say it's pronation. I say it's both pronation AND the added aerodynamic loop, the racket leading ON EDGE, for a more aerodynamic swing before the racket opens up to hit dead square flat serves.
Now try this. Slice your swing. Racket swings fast.
Now try this. eForehand flatten your swing. Racket swings SLOW.
 

boramiNYC

Hall of Fame
The sole reason racquet has to move the way it does is because of how the joints are designed to move. When holding any stick, hand and arm must rotate to smoothly complete the arc of a swing. Right in the middle of that rotation (highest racquet head speed) you want your racquet head to face where you wanna hit with consideration of spin effect.

Even if you serve with a baseball bat (a very light one) you would make the same motion for the greatest speed and force.
 
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toly

Hall of Fame
Sorry, you're wrong.
It might be a by product, I'll agee.
But it's real.
Hold your racket eForehand grip, and swing as fast as you can. Ball goes OK, not great.
Now hold conti and pronate into the ball. Ball goes great.
You might say it's pronation. I say it's both pronation AND the added aerodynamic loop, the racket leading ON EDGE, for a more aerodynamic swing before the racket opens up to hit dead square flat serves.
Now try this. Slice your swing. Racket swings fast.
Now try this. eForehand flatten your swing. Racket swings SLOW.
The main contributor to the racquet head speed is arm pronation (forearm pronation plus upper arm counterclockwise rotation). With continental grip in neutral wrist position the racquet head is exposed to the maximum aerodynamic resistance / impact. Rotation in vertical plane is very slow compare to arm pronation, see picture in post 89. So, it’s absolutely not important what aerodynamic resistant the racquet has relative to this very slow motion. In case of arm pronation the racquet has maximum resistant and high speed, but you forgot about that completely.
Please just forget about racquet’s aerodynamic issue at all. :)
 
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LeeD

Bionic Poster
Sure, sure, you're right, I'm wrong.
Gee, didn't Hitler talk like that? And God, of course.....:):)
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Recent Jim McLennan video on what-ya-call-it.

http://www.essentialtennisinstruction.com/pronation-maybe-that-is-the-problem/

(the elbow rotation is internal shoulder rotation and any relative elbow-wrist rotation that you can distinguish is pronation)

I like McLennan's other videos that I've seen, but this one doesn't make that much sense to me. The preparation phase of the serve involves supination of the forearm. The upward swing involves both an internal rotation fo the shoulder and a forearm rotation. JM seems to be downplaying the role of pronation.

Most novice players will employ a FH or panhandle grip and attempt to serve with no preparatory supination. You often see the waiter's tray position with this type of server. Since there is no supination, there will be little or no pronation on the upward swing.

However, these servers will employ a generous internal shoulder rotation on the upward swing. For this reason, novice players need to learn to use a suitable grip and employ both a supination and pronation for their serve. Since they already use ISR, there is no real need to dwell on it.


It doesn't really matter if they at looking at the ball or not. I think whether you are looking at the ball at contact probably has more to do with how flexible your neck and shoulders are than anything else.

I've tried serving with my eyes closed before. I always made contact with the ball. If I just close my eyes right as I start my upward swing, my serve was only a little less effective than normal ...

Sure it matters. Many/most servers will benefit from keeping the eyes on the ball til contact. Federer does it but some elite servers, like Roddick, do not. While some players can pull it off, it is best to teach players to try to keep their eyes on the ball.

I can also close my eyes after I've release the ball and still hit a reasonable serve (sometimes). In general, however, I find that I serve much better if I keep my eyes on the ball toss til contact. There is one important aspect to this that you are overlooking.

By keeping the eyes on the ball til contact, we minimize movement of the head. The head needs to move off to the side somewhat to make room for the back shoulder tho com thru -- to facilitate the shoulder-over-shoulder cartwheel action. However, if we pull our eyes off the toss we are probably also pulling the head down prior to contact. You can see this head movement with Roddick's serve. This extra head movement can adversely affect the swing path for many servers.
 
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