Credit to Craig O'Shannessy, it was his article.
Success on second serve
- Thread starter krosero
- Start date
Del Potro in his loss to Federer in Dubai last week: 67% on first serve, 72% on second.
First time in this rivalry that either man has done better on second than on first.
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=F324&oId=D683
First time in this rivalry that either man has done better on second than on first.
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=F324&oId=D683
kiki
Banned
Great souvenirs... of Jimbo´s last big win vs Ivan...
In the entire Djokovic-Nadal rivalry there have been a few instances, including today in Monte Carlo, in which a player had higher success on second serve than on first serve.
Djokovic in his win in '07 in Miami - 64% on 1st serve, 75% on 2nd.
Djokovic in his win in '08 in Cincinnati - 71% on 1st, 76% on 2nd.
In their RG match in '08, which Nadal won, this happened to both men. Nadal was 66% on 1st and 70% on 2nd. Djokovic was 57% on 1st and 58% on 2nd.
Djokovic in his win in '11 in Miami - 66% on 1st, 70% on 2nd.
Djokovic in his loss today in Monte Carlo - 40% on 1st, 56% on 2nd. This one really stands out because the success on 1st serve is so low.
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=D643&oId=N409
Just a note, I don't have stats for two of their matches: at the Olympics in '08 and in Davis Cup in '09.
Djokovic in his win in '07 in Miami - 64% on 1st serve, 75% on 2nd.
Djokovic in his win in '08 in Cincinnati - 71% on 1st, 76% on 2nd.
In their RG match in '08, which Nadal won, this happened to both men. Nadal was 66% on 1st and 70% on 2nd. Djokovic was 57% on 1st and 58% on 2nd.
Djokovic in his win in '11 in Miami - 66% on 1st, 70% on 2nd.
Djokovic in his loss today in Monte Carlo - 40% on 1st, 56% on 2nd. This one really stands out because the success on 1st serve is so low.
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=D643&oId=N409
Just a note, I don't have stats for two of their matches: at the Olympics in '08 and in Davis Cup in '09.
abmk
Bionic Poster
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Sampras should ring a bell. I don't see how one can miss it if you've watched him played.
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
don't see this posted, his numbers in '84 were 47 on 1st & 56 on 2nd
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
Serena vs Medina Garrigues in Rome today
17/24 on 1st serve(71%)
16/20 on 2nd(80%)
17/24 on 1st serve(71%)
16/20 on 2nd(80%)
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
So what does that say about power vs. kick?
I'm not sure. Stats for success on 1st and 2nd serve are not just about the serves, of course, but also about everything that the player does after serving. And what the receiver is doing plays a role as well. In general terms we can say that the power of a player's first serves won't always be enough to win him more points than he will get behind the kick in his second serves. But usually it will, because most aces and unreturned serves are still first serves; and most of the time players have higher success on 1st serve points.
Not sure what can be said beyond that. Did you have something in mind?
Generally true, but he served at 63% in the Wimbledon final he lost to Borg.
He served only 54% when he lost to Connors in '82.
abmk
Bionic Poster
The TMC final in 2003 was "almost" as one-sided , 6-4,6-0,6-2 IIRC ...
kiki
Banned
You mean, 33 yrs old Agassi?
Federer actually lost 7 games in that one (3, love, 4).
But it was the only one of their matches in which Agassi never saw a break point. Here's Bud Collins:
Agassi, who had held two match points while losing to Federer six days before - during the round-robin phase - had the full, 7500-seat stadium rocking on his behalf.
But Agassi felt like a target because, "Roger is a target server, hitting the lines and corners", he said. Federer had 11 aces and four service winners in 13 serving games - and not exceptionally fast (200kmh his swiftest) but deadly accurate. His serve kept Agassi off balance, and his rippling and ripping backhand - flat, topped, and sliced - was a joy to watch skidding along the lines. Unless you were Agassi.
But Agassi felt like a target because, "Roger is a target server, hitting the lines and corners", he said. Federer had 11 aces and four service winners in 13 serving games - and not exceptionally fast (200kmh his swiftest) but deadly accurate. His serve kept Agassi off balance, and his rippling and ripping backhand - flat, topped, and sliced - was a joy to watch skidding along the lines. Unless you were Agassi.
kiki
Banned
Well, we should know how high was the other guy´s %, like Borg in 1980.But, normally, a Mc Enroe or a Tanner serving in his mid 60% would be almost unbeatable on fast grass.Even if they didn´t break your serve, they´d still hold the advantage in each tie breaker.And serving at such % made them take their chances on the return of serve, as they were so confident in winning all of their serves, that alone would increase their chances to break your serve.
Borg served at 62%, Connors at 64%.
Tanner in the '79 final served at 53%, but that was not particularly low for him. I'm not sure we know of any match in which he broke 60%.
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Federer-Roddick
In the 24 matches that Federer and Roddick have played, Roddick has never had greater success on second serve than on first serve.
Federer has, twice:
2002 Basel - 79% on 1st, and 80% on 2nd
2007 Masters Cup - 74% on 1st, 87% on 2nd
In the 24 matches that Federer and Roddick have played, Roddick has never had greater success on second serve than on first serve.
Federer has, twice:
2002 Basel - 79% on 1st, and 80% on 2nd
2007 Masters Cup - 74% on 1st, 87% on 2nd
abmk
Bionic Poster
yes, a 33 year old agassi who had won the AO that year, was ranked in the top 5 and was in wayyyyyy better form than your crush's best rival 35 year old Rosewall in 69 ...
oh, not to forget a 41 year old Gonzales beating Laver ..... :twisted:
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Federer-Murray
In the 15 matches that Federer and Murray have played, neither player has ever had higher success on second serve than on first serve.
It's interesting how Federer has out-aced Roddick in 14 of 21 matches, but he's out-aced Murray only 3 times:
2006 Cincinnati (6-4)
2008 Masters Cup (11-7)
2010 AO final (11-10)
Murray's success on 1st serve against Federer has been very high (partly due to the aces no doubt). In their '08 Dubai match he broke 90% on 1st serve success (something Federer hasn't done in any of their matches).
And yet in their very next match -- the USO final -- Murray's success on 1st serve was a horrid 51%.
In the 15 matches that Federer and Murray have played, neither player has ever had higher success on second serve than on first serve.
It's interesting how Federer has out-aced Roddick in 14 of 21 matches, but he's out-aced Murray only 3 times:
2006 Cincinnati (6-4)
2008 Masters Cup (11-7)
2010 AO final (11-10)
Murray's success on 1st serve against Federer has been very high (partly due to the aces no doubt). In their '08 Dubai match he broke 90% on 1st serve success (something Federer hasn't done in any of their matches).
And yet in their very next match -- the USO final -- Murray's success on 1st serve was a horrid 51%.
kiki
Banned
yes, a 33 year old agassi who had won the AO that year, was ranked in the top 5 and was in wayyyyyy better form than your crush's best rival 35 year old Rosewall in 69 ...
oh, not to forget a 41 year old Gonzales beating Laver ..... :twisted:
Wasn´t it the year Agassi played that legend Di pasquale? or was it another legend, Schuettler?.The fact is AO fields were depleted.Oh¡ Rosewall was in bad shape in 69...in fact, one year older, he won the US Open and reached the Wimbleodn final...Gonzales at 43-44 beat Borg and Connors, so what if he beat laver for a while?
pc1
G.O.A.T.
yes, a 33 year old agassi who had won the AO that year, was ranked in the top 5 and was in wayyyyyy better form than your crush's best rival 35 year old Rosewall in 69 ...
oh, not to forget a 41 year old Gonzales beating Laver ..... :twisted:
Actually Rosewall had a bad year in 1969. Tony Roche was Laver's top rival that year along with Newcombe and Rosewall. Roche could have had the second best year in tennis in 1969. He was fantastic that year.
Old Pancho Gonzalez could beat anyone. He still had the great serve and on that alone he was tough but Gonzalez, pass age 40 could beat Laver, Ashe, Smith, Connors, Hoad, Emerson. Losing to Gonzalez in his early forties was nothing to be ashamed of.
abmk
Bionic Poster
no, they weren't...
the roddick-el ayanoui match in the QF was one of the best matches of all time ..
fed-nalby had a good , but up and down match ....
you had hewitt and ferreria in the mix as well ...
not a very strong AO, but not a depleted one either ...
yes, rosewall had relatively bad years in 67 and 69 ... coincidence that laver had his best years then , I think not ...
and agassi at 33 years of age was playing much much better than gonzales at 40-41 years of age ... federer won all matches vs agassi since 2003 and laver lost a few vs gonzales after gonzales turned 37+ and was worse off than agassi at 33-35 ... go figure ..
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abmk
Bionic Poster
I actually brought up gonzales because the clueless kiki mentioned agassi's age when I talked about the beatdown fed gave him in the TMC 2003 F ...
fact is agassi at age 33 was still playing excellent tennis, far better than gonzales at age 40+ ...
yet kiki has the nerve to bring up agassi's age when I talked about that impressive beatdown and then goes and hides when someone points out that gonzales at age 40+ beat laver .....
I don't actually think its "shameful" to lose once in a while to an all time great ... even if the all time great is old ..
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abmk
Bionic Poster
my opinions are based on facts ..
federer beat agassi every time they faced each other since 2003
gonzales at 37+ beat laver multiple times ...
Deal with it ..:twisted:
kiki
Banned
no, they weren't...
the roddick-el ayanoui match in the QF was one of the best matches of all time ..
fed-nalby had a good , but up and down match ....
you had hewitt and ferreria in the mix as well ...
not a very strong AO, but not a depleted one either ...
yes, rosewall had relatively bad years in 67 and 69 ... coincidence that laver had his best years then , I think not ...
and agassi at 33 years of age was playing much much better than gonzales at 40-41 years of age ... federer won all matches vs agassi since 2003 and laver lost a few vs gonzales after gonzales turned 37+ and was worse off than agassi at 33-35 ... go figure ..
Roddick-El Aynaoui¡¡¡ Ferreira¡¡¡ Hewitt¡¡¡ just some clues
Roddick is a crappy one timer who just won against little crap Ferrero with all crowds behind me at home.
El Aynaoui, if he gets to know you, he´ll be in debt with you forever since nobody else than you would even remember him
Ferreira, in my dictionary is a sinonym for "Journeymanship" ( middle to high class though)
Hewitt, had to play against ALL TIMER Nalbandian and old, tired and unmotivated Sampras to win a couple of majors in the weakest era of modern times.I still wonder how a bulldog baseliner like him has even be allowed to play under the glorious flag of Australia....
Now, Rosewall miraculously recovered old form a year later, when he was older than in 1969 and yet beat Roche at the USO F ( same Laver, curiously did one year before)
abmk
Bionic Poster
you are right, I've replied in the other thread ...Greatest Ground Game of all time
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
nadal-monaco
nadal 31-45 1st serve(69%)
15-20 2nd(75%)
really not enjoying the constant bickering between kiki & abmk in so many threads in this section, esp when they often have nothing to do with thread topic.
nadal 31-45 1st serve(69%)
15-20 2nd(75%)
really not enjoying the constant bickering between kiki & abmk in so many threads in this section, esp when they often have nothing to do with thread topic.
Federer's success on 1st-serve points in today's loss to Djokovic was just 56%, lower than it has been in any match in their rivalry. It has been higher even in losses that were more one-sided than today's -- like their Dubai final last year (6-3, 6-3 to Novak).
When Federer lost in straights to Djokovic at the AO in '08, he won 70% of his points on 1st serve. When he lost to him in straights again at the AO last year, he was up at 72%.
Today in the second set, Federer dropped to 40% success on 1st serve (46% on second).
When Federer lost in straights to Djokovic at the AO in '08, he won 70% of his points on 1st serve. When he lost to him in straights again at the AO last year, he was up at 72%.
Today in the second set, Federer dropped to 40% success on 1st serve (46% on second).
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
Federer-Raonic Halle
Federer
1st serve pts won 53-65(82%)
2nd serve pts won 24-29(83%)
Federer
1st serve pts won 53-65(82%)
2nd serve pts won 24-29(83%)
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic vs Harrison today
76 1st serve
82 2nd serve
76 1st serve
82 2nd serve
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
Serena vs Zheng
Serena
80% 1st serve
84% 2nd serve
Serena
80% 1st serve
84% 2nd serve
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
Seppi vs Young
Seppi
75% 1st serve
83% 2nd serve
Seppi
75% 1st serve
83% 2nd serve
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
Tsonga vs Bellucci
Bellucci
67% 1st serve
72% 2nd serve
Bellucci
67% 1st serve
72% 2nd serve
Moose Malloy
G.O.A.T.
Serena-Zvonareva
Zvonareva
27% 1st serve
50% 2nd serve
Zvonareva
27% 1st serve
50% 2nd serve
