First Hand Experience With Americans vs Foreigners in College Recruiting

floridatennisdude · Jun 20, 2012

^^^yep, look at SC State's men's tennis roster. They'd love to get a four or five star kid to commit, I would imagine, regardless of race. 100% international roster instead. The international mix is much more slanted at that level of program than it is at a powerhouse.

andfor · Jun 20, 2012

floridatennisdude said:
^^^yep, look at SC State's men's tennis roster. They'd love to get a four or five star kid to commit, I would imagine, regardless of race. 100% international roster instead. The international mix is much more slanted at that level of program than it is at a powerhouse.

So true. But many of the diploma snobs dismiss the entire notion of being open to many college options because their kid is not able to make the team at the school of their choice (insert BCS/Ivy school). Instead of focusing on becoming the best student and tennis player they can become and finding a school and tennis program that matches their skills, they resort to excuses.

Misterbill · Jun 20, 2012

andfor said:
So true. But many of the diploma snobs dismiss the entire notion of being open to many college options because their kid is not able to make the team at the school of their choice (insert BCS/Ivy school). Instead of focusing on becoming the best student and tennis player they can become and finding a school and tennis program that matches their skills, they resort to excuses.

Yeah. A whine and jeez party!

barringer97 · Jun 20, 2012

Misterbill said:
We disagree on the facts. I am confident in my information. Full rides when there are 11.7 to spread over 27 slots don't make for championship caliber teams.

Your claim that full-rides are prevalent for baseball super-stars coming out of high school is based on your theoretical offer by the Red Sox of $1.85 million. OK let's go with that.

Say a full scholly is worth $50,000 annually (and that's probably high). I say the superstars get .7 equivalent. That's worth $35,000 per year. You say they get a full. That's worth $50,000 per year.

So your point is that if a kid is offered $35,000, he will take the $1.85 million instead............but if the kid is offered $50,000, the extra $15,000 will make him forego the $1.85 million?

Or maybe your point is that the kid tells the coach he got offered $1.85 million and tells the coach if you give me $15,000 more I'll turn the $1.85 mil down and play for you? I know that's not how it goes down in the real world. If a kid is turning down $1.85 mil to play college ball, it's because he wants to get an education and experience college life. It's not about $15,000 more scholy money

Note baseball players are eligible for the draft after high school and after junior year in college, so most elite college ball players have 3 year college careers.

I don't know how knowledgeable you are about tennis, but I am forming the opinion that your knowledge of college baseball is not first-hand.

I don't know what you mean by first hand knowledge, no, I didn't play college baseball, but I had many friends that did (and were drafted out of high school and college).

My point is that if a kid was going to get $1.5million from the Red Sox, he isn't going to be pay $20k to play at Ucla. He would take the ride, but not pay out of pocket.

I am also not contending that 11 players get 11 scholarships, my point is that the "superstar" as you like to say will get the full ride. There is only, maybe 3 superstars, on a team. So, at most, 3 guys will get full rides, the rest (8.5) will be split likely among 15 players, the rest would be walk-ons.

I'm full aware of the eligibility rules for the draft. To add to your point, a player could leave as a freshman, transfer to a JC, then get drafted as a sophomore if you want to get more specific.

barringer97 · Jun 20, 2012

floridatennisdude said:
Here is a case of the 8th best player coming out of HS and drafted in the first round turning down the money...
http://www.gatorzone.com/baseball/bios.php?year=2012&player_id=91

Obviously, they don't publish the scholarships that players receive. Based on his stats on place in the rotation, I am only assuming that he is not on full ride. So, your example is lost on me.

You can't make assumptions. Sometimes coaches offer full rides and won't pull them even if they suck. Also, in regards to Florida, if he is from Florida and Florida is an State school, his tuition is likely a lot less then someone from out of state. So a partial scholarship for him might only cost him a couple of lunches. Huge difference.

floridatennisdude · Jun 20, 2012

barringer97 said:
You can't make assumptions. Sometimes coaches offer full rides and won't pull them even if they suck. Also, in regards to Florida, if he is from Florida and Florida is an State school, his tuition is likely a lot less then someone from out of state. So a partial scholarship for him might only cost him a couple of lunches. Huge difference.

And there is this reason to believe he is not on a full...
http://www.hsbaseballweb.com/11.7_scholarships.htm

I don't know how California metit scholarships work, but nearly all Florida sports use this in equivalency sports. Notice that all the Americans on UFs mens tennis team are from in state?

Does your California prodigy qualify for aide like this? If not, that could be one of the hang ups on him getting everything covered by his dream schools.

Side note...your entire post was an assumption. Ironic, following the first sentence.

barringer97 · Jun 20, 2012

floridatennisdude said:
And there is this reason to believe he is not on a full...
http://www.hsbaseballweb.com/11.7_scholarships.htm

I don't know how California metit scholarships work, but nearly all Florida sports use this in equivalency sports. Notice that all the Americans on UFs mens tennis team are from in state?

Does your California prodigy qualify for aide like this? If not, that could be one of the hang ups on him getting everything covered by his dream schools.

Side note...your entire post was an assumption. Ironic, following the first sentence.

Huh?

From your article:

The NCAA allows Division I athletic programs to award a maximum of 85 football scholarships, entitling nearly every gridiron athlete a full ride to college.
Baseball players don't have it nearly as good. The NCAA has allotted Division I schools just 11.7 scholarships per year since 1991. Instead of offering full rides, baseball recruiters are forced to pull out their knives and dissect 11.7 scholarships into enough 15%-30% pieces to support a typical 25-man roster.

Yet despite these scholarship limits, Louisiana State still carries 49 players on its roster. Other schools, including Southeastern Conference foes Florida and Georgia, have 40-plus men in uniform.

However, the teams aren't stretching their 11.7 scholarships as thin as you might think.

These teams and others have in-state scholarships at their disposal, grants that the NCAA doesn't count against the standard 11.7 allotment.

"It has definitely helped us," said LSU assistant baseball coach and recruiting coordinator Turtle Thomas. "They get tuition and some of their fees covered, and most of them make good enough grades to keep their scholarships. We're glad to have it."

The awards are meant to keep top high school seniors in Louisiana, Florida, Georgia and nine other states from attending out-of-state universities. In most cases, students receive enough money to cover their tuition and additional fees for four years of school.

Pretty much confirmed exactly what I posted.

floridatennisdude · Jun 20, 2012

Help me out... you have had several statements blaming foreigners, big time coaches, and out of state kids for eating up scholly money from players like your prodigy.

What exactly did I confirm that you posted?

barringer97 · Jun 20, 2012

floridatennisdude said:
Help me out... you have had several statements blaming foreigners, big time coaches, and out of state kids for eating up scholly money from players like your prodigy.

What exactly did I confirm that you posted?

Your example about the 8th best baseball player coming out and turning down money. You said you don't think he has a full ride.

I mentioned that he was in-state and at a state school meaning he likely didn't pay much (if anything).

You said that was an assumption...

You then post an article about how Florida Baseball players are working around the 11.7 scholarship number and how in state players are getting scholarships.

barringer97 · Jun 20, 2012

floridatennisdude said:
Help me out... you have had several statements blaming foreigners, big time coaches, and out of state kids for eating up scholly money from players like your prodigy.

What exactly did I confirm that you posted?

And, I have only "blamed" foreigners.

I don't think I have ever mentioned "big time coaches" or out of state kids in my anti-foreign rant.

floridatennisdude · Jun 20, 2012

barringer97 said:
Your example about the 8th best baseball player coming out and turning down money. You said you don't think he has a full ride.

I mentioned that he was in-state and at a state school meaning he likely didn't pay much (if anything).

You said that was an assumption...

You then post an article about how Florida Baseball players are working around the 11.7 scholarship number and how in state players are getting scholarships.

I guess I don't really grasp your players issue. Does he not have access to the types of aide at USC and UCLA that we offer Florida kids at UF? I also point out Misterbills point that if a kid is turning down over a million bucks, he is doing so because he wants to go to college. A couple thousand bucks isn't going to deter that. If it did, he'd take the million and run.

If finding aide is your players issue, that is either a problem with your state (not offering it) or a problem with the athlete (not being able to claim it). It's really not the foreign players fault. He can't get the state funded merit aide that an in state kid is eligible for. The foreigner purely gets what the athletic department can offer. It's on him to supplement the difference, whereas your kid has state resources to go after.

Frankly, if it were a head count sport you would have a better argument. Equivalency sports have work arounds.

Misterbill · Jun 20, 2012

barringer97 said:
I don't know what you mean by first hand knowledge, no, I didn't play college baseball, but I had many friends that did (and were drafted out of high school and college).

My point is that if a kid was going to get $1.5million from the Red Sox, he isn't going to be pay $20k to play at Ucla. He would take the ride, but not pay out of pocket.

I am also not contending that 11 players get 11 scholarships, my point is that the "superstar" as you like to say will get the full ride. There is only, maybe 3 superstars, on a team. So, at most, 3 guys will get full rides, the rest (8.5) will be split likely among 15 players, the rest would be walk-ons.

I'm full aware of the eligibility rules for the draft. To add to your point, a player could leave as a freshman, transfer to a JC, then get drafted as a sophomore if you want to get more specific.

Our family is in the midst of the college baseball recruiting process.

Every coach or compliance director says stuff to the effect of, "If anyone tells you he is getting a full ride athletic scholarship in baseball he is lying". And then they go on to explain why. They say this in private conversations. They say this at camps they sponsor....to the whole group of players. They say this at Showcases where multiple schools are represented....to the whole group of players.

I guess we will just have to proceed with our divergent understandings of the situation

barringer97 · Jun 20, 2012

floridatennisdude said:
I guess I don't really grasp your players issue. Does he not have access to the types of aide at USC and UCLA that we offer Florida kids at UF?

For sure not at USC because it is a private school. Ucla is a different story, but it is unlikely because he is the best player in CA and he likely won't be getting the full.

floridatennisdude said:
I also point out Misterbills point that if a kid is turning down over a million bucks, he is doing so because he wants to go to college. A couple thousand bucks isn't going to deter that. If it did, he'd take the million and run.

I have said over and over that baseball isn't an issue and isn't comparable to Tennis. You have shown that Florida works around the 11.7 limit easily and I point out that the best juniors have more options than they do in tennis.

I think we have finished off the baseball argument.

floridatennisdude said:
If finding aide is your players issue, that is either a problem with your state (not offering it) or a problem with the athlete (not being able to claim it). It's really not the foreign players fault. He can't get the state funded merit aide that an in state kid is eligible for. The foreigner purely gets what the athletic department can offer. It's on him to supplement the difference, whereas your kid has state resources to go after.

Foreigners are taking up tennis scholarships more than any other sport. American kids are getting screwed. It hurts American kids. It is a "National" league, not "International." I don't understand why anyone would be "pro-foreign"? What benefit does it add?

floridatennisdude · Jun 20, 2012

NFL, NBA, NHL, etc....they all have the "N" for National. Yet, they all have international athletes. Don't get hung up on titles.

I don't get how you claim that baseball has more opportunities than tennis. It's the same when you compare HS athletes vs. Available scholarships: http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/03/10/sports/20080310_SCHOLAR_GRAPHIC2.html . But, it would take a silly person to believe that there aren't more college recruitable athletes in baseball than tennis.

I'm not pro-foreign, per se. I just don't like changing rules to benefit those that work less and aren't as talented. It provides nothing but a poor work ethic to our society, which already has a poor one to start with. At the same time, eliminating foreigners would dumb down college tennis. I'm a college tennis fan and I don't want to see a lesser product.

barringer97 · Jun 20, 2012

floridatennisdude said:
NFL, NBA, NHL, etc....they all have the "N" for National. Yet, they all have international athletes. Don't get hung up on titles.

Those are professional leagues. Big difference.

floridatennisdude said:
I don't get how you claim that baseball has more opportunities than tennis. It's the same when you compare HS athletes vs. Available scholarships: http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/03/10/sports/20080310_SCHOLAR_GRAPHIC2.html . But, it would take a silly person to believe that there aren't more college recruitable athletes in baseball than tennis.

Because of professional opportunities. The 100th best baseball player will likely be drafted in the 4th round of the draft and they will have the opportunity to play minor leagues. The 100th best tennis player can't go pro (or won't make any money doing it) and will have to fight for small partial's at sh*tty schools.

floridatennisdude said:
I'm not pro-foreign, per se. I just don't like changing rules to benefit those that work less and aren't as talented. It provides nothing but a poor work ethic to our society, which already has a poor one to start with. At the same time, eliminating foreigners would dumb down college tennis. I'm a college tennis fan and I don't want to see a lesser product.

Jesus. These people are student athletes with student coming first. Tennis doesn't bring in any money to the University, in fact, it's a cash drain. It wouldn't promote poor work ethic, what a silly comment.

Also, I'm not "eliminating foreigners," just financial aid for foreigners. Let them play if they want...but they will have to pay.

andfor · Jun 20, 2012

floridatennisdude said:
NFL, NBA, NHL, etc....they all have the "N" for National. Yet, they all have international athletes. Don't get hung up on titles.

I don't get how you claim that baseball has more opportunities than tennis. It's the same when you compare HS athletes vs. Available scholarships: http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/03/10/sports/20080310_SCHOLAR_GRAPHIC2.html . But, it would take a silly person to believe that there aren't more college recruitable athletes in baseball than tennis.

I'm not pro-foreign, per se. I just don't like changing rules to benefit those that work less and aren't as talented. It provides nothing but a poor work ethic to our society, which already has a poor one to start with. At the same time, eliminating foreigners would dumb down college tennis. I'm a college tennis fan and I don't want to see a lesser product.

Well said. This sums it up for me. Funny how posters get to use the professional examples like roster limitations for basketball in Europe and baseball in Japan when it's convenient and makes sense to them. Then dismiss their own example when their point has been dismantled.

Misterbill · Jun 20, 2012

barringer97 said:
Foreigners are taking up tennis scholarships more than any other sport. American kids are getting screwed. It hurts American kids. It is a "National" league, not "International." I don't understand why anyone would be "pro-foreign"? What benefit does it add?

Here are the core values of the NCAA:

The Association – through its member institutions, conferences and national office staff – shares a belief in and commitment to:

• The collegiate model of athletics in which students participate as an avocation, balancing their academic, social and athletics experiences.

• The highest levels of integrity and sportsmanship.

• The pursuit of excellence in both academics and athletics.

• The supporting role that intercollegiate athletics plays in the higher education mission and in enhancing the sense of community and strengthening the identity of member institutions.

• An inclusive culture that fosters equitable participation for student-athletes and career opportunities for coaches and administrators from diverse backgrounds.

• Respect for institutional autonomy and philosophical differences.

• Presidential leadership of intercollegiate athletics at the campus, conference and national levels.
Last Updated: Jun 29, 2010

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/about+the+ncaa/who+we+are/core+values+landing+page

Being "pro-foreign" certainly would seem to be inconsistent with the values of inclusiveness and equitable participation. But so would discrimination based on nationality. In fact, I don't see any distinctions based on nationality mentioned anywhere in the core values

By the way, I don't see anyone here who is pro-foreign. I see posters who are pro-nondiscrimination and pro-meritocracy.

I think the NCAA would have to change its core values if it decided it would be good policy to ban or limit foreigners, or eliminate foreigners' opportunity to receive athletic scholarships.

As the core values currently stand, this kind of stuff seems like a non-starter.

EDIT: The last core value, about presidential leadership at the campus level, would allow any individual school to have its own policy to fit its unique circumstances or interests. I think that's where the opponents of foreign participation or scholarships need to focus their attention...........rather than on the NCAA, taking into account the NCAA's core values

floridatennisdude · Jun 20, 2012

barringer97 said:
Those are professional leagues. Big difference.

Because of professional opportunities. The 100th best baseball player will likely be drafted in the 4th round of the draft and they will have the opportunity to play minor leagues. The 100th best tennis player can't go pro (or won't make any money doing it) and will have to fight for small partial's at sh*tty schools.

Jesus. These people are student athletes with student coming first. Tennis doesn't bring in any money to the University, in fact, it's a cash drain. It wouldn't promote poor work ethic, what a silly comment.

Also, I'm not "eliminating foreigners," just financial aid for foreigners. Let them play if they want...but they will have to pay.

1) You can't have it both ways. You cited Euro basketball and Japanese baseball leagues which are pro. That is why I cited our pro leagues. Inter scholastic sports don't exist anywhere else in the world. And you complain about the rules. Be grateful the opportunity is in our back yard.

2) very few pro tennis players make a living. Outside of the top 150, pros are broke. Citing that the 100th best junior has an opportunity to keep playing and get even a little financial assistance is a far better alternative. What I don't believe should happen is that #100 playing for a major school. He isn't good enough. Not at a level that I care to support.

3) you refuse to see college athletics as a whole, you are only looking at one relatively insignificant part of the pie. If colleges had a choice they would only have football, men's basketball, and baseball. And those sports would be fully funded with pimped out facilities. Tennis wouldn't even be a consideration.

I'd love to see US tennis get better. I will just never believe that blocking internationals is the way to do it. If we want to be the best, we need to be able to beat the best. If a foreigner is on your team, beat him out for his spot and don't make excuses. If he is your opponent, beat him for your school. Then, US tennis will get better.

Alohajrtennis · Jun 20, 2012

floridatennisdude said:
1) You can't have it both ways. You cited Euro basketball and Japanese baseball leagues which are pro. That is why I cited our pro leagues. Inter scholastic sports don't exist anywhere else in the world. And you complain about the rules. Be grateful the opportunity is in our back yard.

2) very few pro tennis players make a living. Outside of the top 150, pros are broke. Citing that the 100th best junior has an opportunity to keep playing and get even a little financial assistance is a far better alternative. What I don't believe should happen is that #100 playing for a major school. He isn't good enough. Not at a level that I care to support.

3) you refuse to see college athletics as a whole, you are only looking at one relatively insignificant part of the pie. If colleges had a choice they would only have football, men's basketball, and baseball. And those sports would be fully funded with pimped out facilities. Tennis wouldn't even be a consideration.

I'd love to see US tennis get better. I will just never believe that blocking internationals is the way to do it. If we want to be the best, we need to be able to beat the best. If a foreigner is on your team, beat him out for his spot and don't make excuses. If he is your opponent, beat him for your school. Then, US tennis will get better.

There is an old joke :

Man : Would you sleep with me for $1Million Dollars ?
Women : Ok
Man : Would you sleep with me for $1 ?
Women : Of course not, what do you take me for, a ***** ?
Man: We have already established what you are, we are now just negotiating a price.

I think the fact is that most reasonable people would agree on a 100% ban on foreigners not the American way, but if 100%, or even 90% if the college spots were filled by foreigners, I think you too would agree that's not good for American tennis either.

I know there is a bias in this forum towards assuming the discussion is always about big time top men's programs, but its not. The major problem is in Div II women, where way more than 50% of the spots are going to foreigners, and none of these kids, American or foreign, is going pro anyhow. When two teams of all foreign women play each other in a DIV II match, exactly how is this helping American tennis get better ?

Not everyone who wants reasonable limits is a xenophobic racist bitter about their child not getting a scholarship.

floridatennisdude · Jun 20, 2012

Alohajrtennis said:
There is an old joke :

Man : Would you sleep with me for $1Million Dollars ?
Women : Ok
Man : Would you sleep with me for $1 ?
Women : Of course not, what do you take me for, a ***** ?
Man: We have already established what you are, we are now just negotiating a price.

I think the fact is that most reasonable people would agree on a 100% ban on foreigners not the American way, but if 100%, or even 90% if the college spots were filled by foreigners, I think you too would agree that's not good for American tennis either.

I know there is a bias in this forum towards assuming the discussion is always about big time top men's programs, but its not. The major problem is in Div II women, where way more than 50% of the spots are going to foreigners, and none of these kids, American or foreign, is going pro anyhow. When two teams of all foreign women play each other in a DIV II match, exactly how is this helping American tennis get better ?

Not everyone who wants reasonable limits is a xenophobic racist bitter about their child not getting a scholarship.

I love that joke. Thanks for bringing it up!

Frankly, I don't know if a problem exists in D2 women's tennis. I hear no one complaining on these boards that their kid is not getting a D2 sniff by a school they are trying to go to. A kid that I know walked on to a D2 school and couldn't crack the lineup. His attitude, "I need to get better." He is going into his sophomore year and is very motivated. So, it helped him and he is an American.

But, then again, look at what Misterbill posted about the NCAAs mission...inclusion of all cultures. Maybe at Poe-Dunk D2 U, those are the only foreign students they can even attract to their school and the only means of exposing their student body to kids from other parts of the world. Without them, all the culture the students know is what they grew up with and are again put with in college. I don't think that is good.

I know that as a tennis community we can look at "all foreign" as bad, but until it is proven to be a negative to the NCAA and member institution's mission it isn't going to hit their radar. And if it is only blocking a handful of junior tennis players who in all likelihood aren't very good, what motivation do they have to fight for a change that would hurt the quality of their program or, possibly, close it down?

My advice to parents who are looking for an athletic scholarship for a daughter, buy your kid some oars and a boat. Rowing is the only sport in the NCAA where there are more scholarships available than HS athletes.

andfor · Jun 20, 2012

Alohajrtennis said:
There is an old joke :

Man : Would you sleep with me for $1Million Dollars ?
Women : Ok
Man : Would you sleep with me for $1 ?
Women : Of course not, what do you take me for, a ***** ?
Man: We have already established what you are, we are now just negotiating a price.

I think the fact is that most reasonable people would agree on a 100% ban on foreigners not the American way, but if 100%, or even 90% if the college spots were filled by foreigners, I think you too would agree that's not good for American tennis either.

I know there is a bias in this forum towards assuming the discussion is always about big time top men's programs, but its not. The major problem is in Div II women, where way more than 50% of the spots are going to foreigners, and none of these kids, American or foreign, is going pro anyhow. When two teams of all foreign women play each other in a DIV II match, exactly how is this helping American tennis get better ?

Not everyone who wants reasonable limits is a xenophobic racist bitter about their child not getting a scholarship.

Some of the top DII womens programs may have heavy international influence. I know a 2 star kid who played for a top 50 DII womens program recently for 4 years. They made the NCAA tournament every year. She was American. As a freshman she started at #5 and moved up a spot every year. They had between 2-3 internationals every year. If a kid can't make a mid-raked or non-ranked DII program because their not good enough, I don't get your position. Maybe your from Hawaii and all those DII programs are loaded with internationals. Broaden the horizon, there's many programs to choose from even for 1 star type kids.

barringer97 · Jun 20, 2012

andfor said:
Well said. This sums it up for me. Funny how posters get to use the professional examples like roster limitations for basketball in Europe and baseball in Japan when it's convenient and makes sense to them. Then dismiss their own example when their point has been dismantled.

I think you lost my point, or can't grasp it.

Limits in Japan and Europe have resulted in better play for those countries. You now see a steady increase of foreign players playing at top levels (here). If second tier Americans dominated European basketball, you wouldn't see the progression that the Europeans made in hoops, and in turn, likely would never have seen players like Dirk, Rubio, Parker, or Gasol (to name a few).

floridatennisdude · Jun 21, 2012

barringer97 said:
I think you lost my point, or can't grasp it.

Limits in Japan and Europe have resulted in better play for those countries. You now see a steady increase of foreign players playing at top levels (here). If second tier Americans dominated European basketball, you wouldn't see the progression that the Europeans made in hoops, and in turn, likely would never have seen players like Dirk, Rubio, Parker, or Gasol (to name a few).

You'll also notice on some Euro hoops rosters that players born in Ohio are "Italian" citizens while others born in New Orleans are "Macedonian" citizens.

andfor · Jun 21, 2012

barringer97 said:
I think you lost my point, or can't grasp it.

Limits in Japan and Europe have resulted in better play for those countries. You now see a steady increase of foreign players playing at top levels (here). If second tier Americans dominated European basketball, you wouldn't see the progression that the Europeans made in hoops, and in turn, likely would never have seen players like Dirk, Rubio, Parker, or Gasol (to name a few).

That's such an assumption who would make that connection, other than you? Dirk, Rubio and Parker would have made it any ways. Gasol came to the NBA as a skinny underdeveloped 7 ft. 18 year old. He'd be in the league any ways. And your going to chalk his NBA stardom up to Euro league BB roster limits? Your example is a very, very poor one.

floridatennisdude · Jun 21, 2012

andfor said:
Some of the top DII womens programs may have heavy international influence. I know a 2 star kid who played for a top 50 DII womens program recently for 4 years. They made the NCAA tournament every year. She was American. As a freshman she started at #5 and moved up a spot every year. They had between 2-3 internationals every year. If a kid can't make a mid-raked or non-ranked DII program because their not good enough, I don't get your position. Maybe your from Hawaii and all those DII programs are loaded with internationals. Broaden the horizon, there's many programs to choose from even for 1 star type kids.

You mean a player went to a school, worked hard, improved and played D2 tennis at its top level? Wow! I thought players were supposed to be handed everything and they can play at whatever school they want to. What a crazy happening you witnessed.

(the sarcasm is very thick in this post)

barringer97 · Jun 21, 2012

andfor said:
That's such an assumption who would make that connection, other than you? Dirk, Rubio and Parker would have made it any ways. Gasol came to the NBA as a skinny underdeveloped 7 ft. 18 year old. He'd be in the league any ways. And your going to chalk his NBA stardom up to Euro league BB roster limits? Your example is a very, very poor one.

It's was the overall lift in the game. There were players before him that lifted the game, got Europeans excited. If there were no limits, I don't think European Basketball would be where it is today. If it was just second tier American players playing, there would be no connection for the Europeans as fans. Instead, when Gasol played for Barcelona, the fans treated him as one of their own, because he was. Little Gasol's follow; the game expands.

Gasol did play pro ball in Spain as a youth.

When he was sixteen, he began playing for Barcelona's junior team.[3] He also won both the 1998 Albert Schweitzer Tournament and the 1998 FIBA Europe Under-18 Championship.[4] After moving to the senior team of Barcelona, Gasol played just 25 total minutes in the Spanish ACB League 1998–99 season, and averaged 13.7 minutes per game in the ACB the next year.[5] However, in his final season in the ACB, Gasol averaged 12.4 points and 5.8 rebounds in 24.7 minutes per game.[5] Barcelona was victorious in the Spanish National Cup championship game in 2001, and Gasol was named Most Valuable Player.[4]

How do fans relate to college players that aren't from this country? What about after they graduate? Do they usually move back to their home country and are not involved in alumni activities?

I guarantee that if you limit Foreign players in College Tennis, fan support would increase and the American Game would eventually improve.

ClarkC · Jun 21, 2012

barringer97 said:
How do fans relate to college players that aren't from this country? What about after they graduate? Do they usually move back to their home country and are not involved in alumni activities?

Virginia tennis fans follow all of our alumni in the pro ranks. We even have an official athletic department web page that follows them. A couple of days ago, I searched the draws of last week's Futures tournament in Turkey to see if Teddy Angelinos, from Greece, played, and found that he had indeed played that tourney and won a couple of rounds. I posted on The Sabre a link to the draw for other UVa fans to see. We all followed Sanam Singh when he won three straight Futures tourneys in India this spring. Sanam flew back to root the team on in Athens at the NCAAs in May. Somdev Devvarman has spent a lot of time watching and supporting the team at matches while he recovers from shoulder surgery performed in the winter. We also follow Dom Inglot from England in ATP doubles (now in the top 100).

floridatennisdude · Jun 21, 2012

barringer97 said:
How do fans relate to college players that aren't from this country? What about after they graduate? Do they usually move back to their home country and are not involved in alumni activities?

I guarantee that if you limit Foreign players in College Tennis, fan support would increase and the American Game would eventually improve.

1) joakim Noah is fairly beloved by UF. Even though he competes with France on their national team. He comes back in the off season to train and during the lockout he trained in Gainesville. When he was shown on the jumbo tron during a UF game, the crowd went nuts and started Gator chomping.

2) I don't know about your guarantee on college tennis fan support. For sure, there would be more family members in attendance. My involvement would be subject to the quality of tennis. If the quality was high, I would watch. If the quality drops, as I feel it would, I would lose interest.

As for it improving the game, I just can't see that. We are eliminating talent to replace it with lesser talent. Maybe this would inspire US youths to seek tennis as an avenue to college. Maybe it wouldn't. It's a huge gamble to take on the entire sport. If it flopped, and i assume it would, a lot of programs would shut down and we would ultimately have the same options for US youths as we do currently with less programs in existence and thus less exposure as a whole.

andfor · Jun 21, 2012

floridatennisdude said:
1) joakim Noah is fairly beloved by UF. Even though he competes with France on their national team. He comes back in the off season to train and during the lockout he trained in Gainesville. When he was shown on the jumbo tron during a UF game, the crowd went nuts and started Gator chomping.

2) I don't know about your guarantee on college tennis fan support. For sure, there would be more family members in attendance. My involvement would be subject to the quality of tennis. If the quality was high, I would watch. If the quality drops, as I feel it would, I would lose interest.

As for it improving the game, I just can't see that. We are eliminating talent to replace it with lesser talent. Maybe this would inspire US youths to seek tennis as an avenue to college. Maybe it wouldn't. It's a huge gamble to take on the entire sport. If it flopped, and i assume it would, a lot of programs would shut down and we would ultimately have the same options for US youths as we do currently with less programs in existence and thus less exposure as a whole.

Another great post. Your fear of international player limits and programs then being dropped has always been a fear of mine as an untended consequence. Mississippi Junior Colleges took the NJCAA 2 internationals roster limit one step further and will not allow any international on their tennis teams. Their will be none in 2014. Talking with coaches in that league they already struggle to fill their rosters as it is without limitations. It may take a few years to see if it works. My fear is it won't. In the meantime what about the quality of the tennis there? Not going to go well I'm afraid. Maybe all the anti-international parents can send their kids to a Mississippi Junior College to play tennis now. What? That won't happen? Hmmm, hypocrisy?

kme5150 · Jun 21, 2012

People don't seem to understand that people in America want to watch Americans playing sports.

Look at the World Series TV Rankings over the past 4 decades.
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/ws/wstv.shtml
Don't you think it is odd that there were more people watching the World Series in the 70s than they are now. This is when the average home in the 70s had one TV. This is with salaries at an all time high. I would guess it is because most people who grew up playing/watching baseball are tired of watching players from South America. Even my grandmother stopped watching it and I never thought that would happen.

Soccer is the most popular sport in the world. Nothing comes close so please don't argue this. Why isn't it on free public TV here all the time the way it is in Europe? It is because most Americans are not interested in watching anything other than Americans.

The regionals for College Timbersports is going to be on ESPN U this week. People would rather watch guys cutting up logs than tennis.

andfor · Jun 21, 2012

^^^^I see your point to an extent. However, I believe Free Agency and the movement of players from one team to another without player loyalty to one team has had more to do with it than your premise. There's also more tv programing and more to do outside the home then ever before.

Baseball teams don't have that many foreigners on them. I don't buy that excuse for declining tv viewing of that game on bit.

tball2day · Jun 21, 2012

........................

floridatennisdude · Jun 21, 2012

Kme, I don't watch baseball on TV because it is boring. I also think there are too many teams. And I don't completely disagree with andfor about the free agency/loyalty, but football has gotten away with it. The Braves used to be THE team in the south...now Tampa Bay and Miami have teams and all three clubs can't fill a stadium. Trust me, in South Florida, having South American players is not a deterrent to embracing a team.

But, I get your point kme, professional tennis TV ratings are also down in the US and I think that is correlated to the lack of American presence in the finals of majors. But that is pro sports. College fans are different and have a connection to their alma mater. That is pretty powerful. I wear my college gear even when we suck. It is something I was a part of and I'm proud of. No one comes up to me on the street and says, "I hate your school. You have all those foreigners on your tennis teams!"

I'm still not convinced that more people would watch a watered down college tennis match simply because the players are American. I don't think there is a difference in attendance numbers at Futures and Challengers based on the % of Americans in the draw...and that is the same level as college tennis for the most part. It is pro tennis, but still, the demographics don't change whether 1200 people attend one of those or 1500. You go to one because you appreciate the talent.

barringer97 · Jun 21, 2012

ClarkC said:
Virginia tennis fans follow all of our alumni in the pro ranks. We even have an official athletic department web page that follows them. A couple of days ago, I searched the draws of last week's Futures tournament in Turkey to see if Teddy Angelinos, from Greece, played, and found that he had indeed played that tourney and won a couple of rounds. I posted on The Sabre a link to the draw for other UVa fans to see. We all followed Sanam Singh when he won three straight Futures tourneys in India this spring. Sanam flew back to root the team on in Athens at the NCAAs in May. Somdev Devvarman has spent a lot of time watching and supporting the team at matches while he recovers from shoulder surgery performed in the winter. We also follow Dom Inglot from England in ATP doubles (now in the top 100).

Yes. There are exceptions...like us dorks posting on message boards about college tennis. But you would have to agree that the popularity in college tennis has gone down (let's say from 30 years ago)...no?

barringer97 · Jun 21, 2012

floridatennisdude said:
1) joakim Noah is fairly beloved by UF. Even though he competes with France on their national team. He comes back in the off season to train and during the lockout he trained in Gainesville. When he was shown on the jumbo tron during a UF game, the crowd went nuts and started Gator chomping.

Apples and Oranges. Of course he is going to be loved, he won two NC's for an extremely popular sport, still works in the US, and is pretty freaking famous.

floridatennisdude said:
2) I don't know about your guarantee on college tennis fan support. For sure, there would be more family members in attendance. My involvement would be subject to the quality of tennis. If the quality was high, I would watch. If the quality drops, as I feel it would, I would lose interest.

There would be a razor thin difference in quality, I'm guessing you wouldn't notice. Plus, you can probably watch a good 5.0 match, high school, or a National 14's match and be excited

floridatennisdude said:
As for it improving the game, I just can't see that. We are eliminating talent to replace it with lesser talent. Maybe this would inspire US youths to seek tennis as an avenue to college. Maybe it wouldn't. It's a huge gamble to take on the entire sport. If it flopped, and i assume it would, a lot of programs would shut down and we would ultimately have the same options for US youths as we do currently with less programs in existence and thus less exposure as a whole.

Let's try it.

Honestly, there isn't much to lose. It's not (relatively) popular and it loses money.

andfor · Jun 21, 2012

barringer97 said:
Let's try it. Honestly, there isn't much to lose. It's not (relatively) popular and it loses money.

The NJCAA is implementing international tennis player restrictions this year. 2 internationals per team max. Internationals on teams for 2012 will be grandfathered in for 2012-2013. In 2013-2014 no team will have more than 2 international players. Mississippi took it a step further and said no internationals on their tennis teams and limited out of state players to two players.

This is the experiment you want. Let's see how it works.

barringer97 · Jun 21, 2012

andfor said:
The NJCAA is implementing international tennis player restrictions this year. 2 internationals per team max. Internationals on teams for 2012 will be grandfathered in for 2012-2013. In 2013-2014 no team will have more than 2 international players. Mississippi took it a step further and said no internationals on their tennis teams and limited out of state players to two players.

This is the experiment you want. Let's see how it works.

Agree. That will effect the NCAA's in some way also, because a lot of those dudes transfer to NCAA. The problem is that no one really cares of NJCAA, but it's a start.

10ismom · Jun 21, 2012

Wanna see college tennis on TV?

kme5150 said:
People don't seem to understand that people in America want to watch Americans playing sports.

Look at the World Series TV Rankings over the past 4 decades.
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/ws/wstv.shtml
Don't you think it is odd that there were more people watching the World Series in the 70s than they are now. This is when the average home in the 70s had one TV. This is with salaries at an all time high. I would guess it is because most people who grew up playing/watching baseball are tired of watching players from South America. Even my grandmother stopped watching it and I never thought that would happen.

Soccer is the most popular sport in the world. Nothing comes close so please don't argue this. Why isn't it on free public TV here all the time the way it is in Europe? It is because most Americans are not interested in watching anything other than Americans.

The regionals for College Timbersports is going to be on ESPN U this week. People would rather watch guys cutting up logs than tennis.

Hey fellow posters,

Help me get this thread at the tennisinsiders.com forum going.

http://tennisinsiders.com/forum/topic/college-tennis-should-be-on-tv/

I want to see college tennis on TV too!

kme5150 · Jun 21, 2012

Why would it need to be live in order to see good college tennis? I watch tape delay every year of Wimbledon and RG. I agree that ESPN U is horrible, but it is pretty bad when even the worst doesn't want you.

People follow college and it works into the pros. Do you think people are going to watch the Redskins this year for any other reason than to see how RGIII does? The same thing could be done with tennis. The USTA could help this situation by promoting the futures, challengers and college tennis more. Increase the exposure to tennis and you will increase the volumes and that in return will increase the chances of finding the next Sampras, Agassi, Courier, Chang, Connors, and John McEnroe. The USTA is naive to think that they are going to grow the sport by dumping $500 million into the US Open that is only on TV for 2 weeks. Did Red Bull become popular because it just showed up on shelves in the grocery store? No, it was plastered all over the TV every time you turned around.

floridatennisdude · Jun 21, 2012

barringer97 said:
Yes. There are exceptions...like us dorks posting on message boards about college tennis. But you would have to agree that the popularity in college tennis has gone down (let's say from 30 years ago)...no?

I didn't follow it 30 years ago, as I didn't even play when I was that young. I have followed it since around 2004 and I think it's popularity is pretty strong.

Definitely wish they would've televised the NCAAs this year like they did the last two. But, realistically, it is a sport that few care about. I can't imagine more would care to watch watered down competition solely because it was only Americans playing. It would actually deter me.

floridatennisdude · Jun 21, 2012

barringer97 said:
Apples and Oranges. Of course he is going to be loved, he won two NC's for an extremely popular sport, still works in the US, and is pretty freaking famous.

There would be a razor thin difference in quality, I'm guessing you wouldn't notice. Plus, you can probably watch a good 5.0 match, high school, or a National 14's match and be excited

Let's try it. Honestly, there isn't much to lose. It's not (relatively) popular and it loses money.

I don't go to watch 5.0, high school, or 14 nationals. I just would rather watch higher level play if that is how I am spending my time.

I think there is a lot to lose. I love watching college tennis. I don't want it's quality affected.

10ismom · Jun 21, 2012

floridatennisdude said:
I don't go to watch 5.0, high school, or 14 nationals. I just would rather watch higher level play if that is how I am spending my time.

I think there is a lot to lose. I love watching college tennis. I don't want it's quality affected.

FTD (and college tennis fans),

It is not fair you've gotta watch college tennis in FL so much.

I and many tennis fans would like to see college tennis on TV instead of a poor quality livestream.

Help me lobby Steve Bellamy (tennis channel) in the college forum thread at tennisinsiders.com pleaseeeeee.

May be seeing college matches on TV will make American juniors work harder to reach "the standard and expectation"....... so we will not have to worry about American vs Foreign players?

Sorry, for a brief thread hi-jack.

darrinbaker00 · Jun 21, 2012

kme5150 said:
Why would it need to be live in order to see good college tennis? I watch tape delay every year of Wimbledon and RG. I agree that ESPN U is horrible, but it is pretty bad when even the worst doesn't want you.

People follow college and it works into the pros. Do you think people are going to watch the Redskins this year for any other reason than to see how RGIII does? The same thing could be done with tennis. The USTA could help this situation by promoting the futures, challengers and college tennis more. Increase the exposure to tennis and you will increase the volumes and that in return will increase the chances of finding the next Sampras, Agassi, Courier, Chang, Connors, and John McEnroe. The USTA is naive to think that they are going to grow the sport by dumping $500 million into the US Open that is only on TV for 2 weeks. Did Red Bull become popular because it just showed up on shelves in the grocery store? No, it was plastered all over the TV every time you turned around.

I agree with this 100 percent. The USTA is a minority owner of Tennis Channel, so I see no reason why they don't broadcast USTA Challenger, Futures or national Junior tournaments.

ClarkC · Jun 21, 2012

kme5150 said:
Soccer is the most popular sport in the world. Nothing comes close so please don't argue this. Why isn't it on free public TV here all the time the way it is in Europe? It is because most Americans are not interested in watching anything other than Americans.

MLS has foreign-player limits on each roster. Their TV ratings are still weak. There are numerous reasons, too complicated to discuss here. One factor is that the networks don't really want to promote soccer, because you have to go 45 minutes without showing a commercial, and then do the same in the second half. Viewers can leave the room during halftime and see no commercials. Advertisers hate it, by comparison to traditional American sports that have constant timeouts and even accommodate advertisers with extra "TV timeouts." In soccer-mad countries, the networks and advertisers do soccer because they have no choice. Not so in America. Lots of other factors could be discussed. Google "American exceptionalism in sports" and you might find another major factor discussed.

kme5150 said:
The regionals for College Timbersports is going to be on ESPN U this week. People would rather watch guys cutting up logs than tennis.

Some sports are easy and cheap to film. Some sports have a natural sponsor (chain saw manufacturer?) who will fund the filming because their commercials then get to a very targeted, interested audience. Tennis is not easy and cheap to film at the collegiate level, with six matches going on at once. It is very easy and cheap to film a softball game or a cheerleading championship that takes place on a single stage in an auditorium. Again, other factors enter into the equation as well.

ClarkC · Jun 21, 2012

barringer97 said:
Yes. There are exceptions...like us dorks posting on message boards about college tennis. But you would have to agree that the popularity in college tennis has gone down (let's say from 30 years ago)...no?

I don't know. How do I measure that? I attended top 10 tennis matches in the late 1970s that had 100-200 spectators most of the time. We easily beat that at Virginia today. I don't know how it is at other top 10 teams today.

andfor · Jun 22, 2012

ClarkC said:
I don't know. How do I measure that? I attended top 10 tennis matches in the late 1970s that had 100-200 spectators most of the time. We easily beat that at Virginia today. I don't know how it is at other top 10 teams today.

The ITA keeps attendance figures. Not sure how accurate or how far back they are. Probably up to the coach to make sure someone tracks the attendance. Looks like a handful of schools and conferences take time to track and report. I would take the numbers loosely and not necessarily use these figures to come up with conclusions regarding year over year attendance increase or decreases. I am sure much of the large match attendance has to do with rivalry, ranking and conference importance and can vary widely year over year.

http://www.itatennis.com/ITA360/AttendanceRace.htm

floridatennisdude · Jun 23, 2012

^^^I can almost guarantee that Florida didn't report their numbers. FSU would never outdraw us.

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