How to deal with EXTREME hooking?

J

Jack the(Forehand)Ripper

New User
I was in my consolation semifinal match yesterday. It was blazing heat and the kid seemed nice enough. I was playing well, he was playing alright. Nothing amazing. Third point of the match, 30-0 in favor of me. Slice return that hit WELL inside the line (Over 6 inches for sure) but was called out. It was early on and I wasn't fuming yet so I did an exaggerated "Nooo, it wasn't." A friend and player that defeated me in the quarters was sitting on the sideline and gave me the signal that it was well in. I let it go.

Flash forward to 3-2, 15-30. Backhand winner that hit on the inside of the singles line, called out loudly and followed by a "COME ON." This was the 3rd time in the match but the second that had NO chance of being out. At this point I walked up to the net and addressed the problem. "No, the ball was in. This is the second time in 5 games that you've attempted to rob me of the point. Don't let it happen again."

Nevertheless, the lines apparently shifted a foot up when he was calling them and called many an ace out. I let it go because I had won 6 games in a row. At 2-0, he did it again. An ace kicker out wide was deemed a double fault. I was broken and furious. I then dropped three games in a row and had to recover. I started lobbing topspin balls back at him around service line depth so he couldn't call them out. I then got up 5-4.

The final game had more of the same. 0-0, a blistering flat serve landed on the line and jammed him. After watching his return sail out, he casually said "The serve went out." I framed the second in anger and got down 0-15. It then got to 40-30, match point. Short reply gave me an easy putaway. Ball landed on the line, but was called out. Then again at ad in (And this one made me want to chuck my racket at the kid) a forehand that landed DEAD in the corner and was easily in on both the baseline and singles line, he showed the index finger. But alas, two serves later, it landed a foot inside the singles line and kicked into the side fence for match point.


My question is, how do I deal with this? He only hooked on important points and a ref would've left when he saw a few games of fair play. This was the most angry I've ever been and the most accusatory I've been towards another player.
 
B

BMC9670

Hall of Fame
gplracer said:
Keep calling the ref back out. Be sure the ref is there when it is near the end of the set.
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Agree. Since you noticed it several times during the match, call the ref for the last couple games of the set/match and tell him/her what had been going on. You gave him enough points during the course of the match - don't let him steal it at the end.
 
F

floridatennisdude

Hall of Fame
Yea, multiple requests for a ref should alert the officials that this is going on. I'd even ask the official not to walk away if they start to.
 
L

lstewart

Semi-Pro
An extreme approach after a guy has made numerous bad calls that you are sure where wrong, and after you have warned him to make better calls, is to call his next shot that lands in the middle of the court out. I've seen alot of guys that make bad calls also expect their opponents to call everything in. Once they know you are going to take a point every time they do, the match will be in gridlock, and both of you will insist on an offical. Not really a good thing to do, but it is possible that is your only option if you can't get an offical to watch lines otherwise.
 
BHiC

BHiC

Rookie
You have three choices. You can either -
1. Get a ref. Let them know about the problem, and see if they can stay as long as possible. If their are enough officials at the site, then this is probably the best option.

2. Hook him back. After he called the ball out, calmly walk up to the net and say, "Oh, so those are the boundaries we are playing with? Ok." and then walk back. You don't have to say anything else. Next ball that he hits anywhere remotely close to the line call out.

3. Whenever he calls a ball out that is clearly in (except on your serve), simply state "Oh, did you not hear me? your shot before was out". You can do that no matter where his shot landed, and allows you to still win the point, even if he hooked you.

Obviously I would suggest to go with number 1, but option 2 does work if there is no official that is available or willing to stay on your court long enough. Option 3 also works if this is a very crucial point, and more important than correcting future calls is winning that specific point.
 
C

chalkflewup

Hall of Fame
What wouldn't be exciting for my kid would be the month long vacation away from tennis if he ever pulled a stunt like that...but my kid wouldn't ever pull that junk.
 
S

SoCal10s

Hall of Fame
lstewart said:
is to call his next shot that lands in the middle of the court out. .
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I told one of my players to do this kind of retaliation call... i've regret it ever since.. this will only promote cheating and what ever you may want to call it ,it's still cheating..

I don't know,but for me I would rather have my player hit a drop shot and take a 100 mph swing at the guy after he keeps cheating and go right after his head rather than do a retaliation call ... I know I was taught that too but it's a fine line,and you need to handle it...

in my days I just tell the kid ""if you keep cheating ,I'm gonna take this racket and shove it up your ass"" that usually works.. if not then we'd have a nice fist fight.. but now-a-days everyone is packing a gun ,so I can't recommend this ..
 
Orion3

Orion3

Semi-Pro
As a junior, I once played a boy that did the same. I watched his previous match, so was forewarned.

Sure enough he did the same to me. I threatened to call an official and the problem went away for a bit. Came back when I served for the first set. Set point - amazing double fault. My first serve was a foot inside the T - I was looking down the line and he was standing just inside the tramlines. 2nd serve was easily 2 feet in but he called it out.

Next point I hit a second serve in the middle of the deuce court to be safe with some slice, he hit it cross court and came into the net...exactly as I'd hoped. I stepped in a buried the ball into his chest as hard as I could - ala Lendl.

The rest of the match was played fairly and although I won, the second set was much closer than the first! Proving that he was better WITHOUT the cheating.
 
L

lstewart

Semi-Pro
Yeah, cheating is really not good advice. My son is 16 and does not call anything out. It drives me crazy at tournaments, he plays anything, and gives guys service winners on balls that are 6 inches out. Then add running into the guys that hook him, and it can get pretty frustrating. That's the thing about tennis. If you don't have an offical, you can cheat to whatever extreme you want to carry it. I was playing the national grass courts a few years ago, lost the first set in a breaker, and was on serve at 3-4 in the second. My opponent said he was up 5-2. We got into it, and he said in the first game he had been up 15-40, and broke me. I said yes, he had been up two break points, but I came back and held. We got an offical, and the rule is you go back to the place you both agree on the score. So I was going to have to start the set over, down double break point on my serve. I was so mad I walked off the court. A buddy then told me he was playing a satellite event and the guy was hooking him terribly. My friend was winning, and was up something like 6-4, 5-3. They got into a big arguement over a bad call, and the other guy said he was going to claim he was up 6-4, 5-3. The result... start the match over. So... unless you have alot of impartial people watching and keeping your score, you are at the mercy of a cheater.
 
J

jdubbs

Hall of Fame
Wow, this is a depressing thread. I have a friend who thinks of himself as a pro (he's an average 5.0), and he's slightly better than me but he calls lines way too tight and it makes it not fun.

But nothing like you guys are describing. Wow. I would just hook back, but I'm a fighter.
 
S

sundaypunch

Hall of Fame
chalkflewup said:
I don't think it's a judge problem. It's a parenting problem.
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This hits the nail on the head. I get frustrated because my daughter will play balls that are 6" long, even on important points. That being said, if I ever thought she was intentionally making bad calls she would get one warning after that match. If it happened again I would pull her mid-match.

When you see kids that cheat, it is usually a case of "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree".
 
Lovely_Bone

Lovely_Bone

Rookie
The only way to deal with EXTREME hooking to to resort to EXTREME violence.
Jk, you should just have a stern talk with the opponent on the changeover. This will unnerve most "hookers", for lack of a better term, and they will probably stop if they are intentionally doing it. If they are doing it by mistake, there isn't much you can do aside from getting a ref or line judge.
 
T

tennis5

Professional
dsa202 said:
Only one way to deal with him - hook him back.
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I witnessed this exact same scenario at a National Opens Tournament.

Interestingly, another parent was standing with me watching this double hooking, and noted both kids in his blackberry
and told me he was "so-so" , a big fundraiser at his college and close ties with the tennis team that he had played on...

And these two kids... he would make sure that they were not going there.
(You never know who is watching your match, sometimes the lowly parent has big college ties).

BTw, it was two blue chips...
 
J

jigglypuff

Rookie
tennis5 said:
I witnessed this exact same scenario at a National Opens Tournament.

Interestingly, another parent was standing with me watching this double hooking, and noted both kids in his blackberry
and told me he was "so-so" , a big fundraiser at his college and close ties with the tennis team that he had played on...

And these two kids... he would make sure that they were not going there.
(You never know who is watching your match, sometimes the lowly parent has big college ties).

BTw, it was two blue chips...
Click to expand...

No way no how... if the two blue chip recruits even wanted to go to that college, the coach would jump over fire to get them in. 1 or 2 guaranteed points is usually the difference in a college match.
 
Swissv2

Swissv2

Hall of Fame
If you cannot get the ref at all times, get a guy to video tape the match or video tape it yourself. Also, you had an audience. The more awareness of a match, the less hookers try to cheat you.
 
MarTennis

MarTennis

Semi-Pro
Great message...

tennis5 said:
I witnessed this exact same scenario at a National Opens Tournament.

Interestingly, another parent was standing with me watching this double hooking, and noted both kids in his blackberry
and told me he was "so-so" , a big fundraiser at his college and close ties with the tennis team that he had played on...

And these two kids... he would make sure that they were not going there.
(You never know who is watching your match, sometimes the lowly parent has big college ties).

BTw, it was two blue chips...
Click to expand...

...I will definitely counsel to all juniors. Currently, I tell my charge that eventually he will be too dominate physically, mentally and athletically, that to succume to cheating would just look horrible in light of the gifts he will possess. Besides all the mental confusion that incorperating hooking into your game creates.
 
T

tennis5

Professional
jigglypuff said:
No way no how... if the two blue chip recruits even wanted to go to that college, the coach would jump over fire to get them in. 1 or 2 guaranteed points is usually the difference in a college match.
Click to expand...

Well, I was speaking to the dad who took out his blackberry and put their names down and off it went as an email to the coach of the college ( where he played and is a big donor).

Sure, a coach at some other college will pick them up, but not the coach who received this email.
 
A

andfor

Legend
tennis5 said:
Well, I was speaking to the dad who took out his blackberry and put their names down and off it went as an email to the coach of the college ( where he played and is a big donor).

Sure, a coach at some other college will pick them up, but not the coach who received this email.
Click to expand...

This supposed big deal so and so big time donor booster may have sent the email. But really, would a good college coach subject himself to being told who to recruit and not recruit by a booster based on observations of one match? Come on people..........That guy is a blow-hard.

I get the point. Chances of team members telling a coach a recruit would be trouble and not worth having on the team is more realistic.
 
G

gameboy

Hall of Fame
There is an awful lot of "hit the line dead", "hit the corner on my serve" in the original post.

If you think you can tell exactly if your ball landed in the middle of the line from where you are serving, you are deluded. The Wimbledon lines person sitting at the line in the best angle possible cannot call it accurately all the time and you think you can from the other side while serving?

Give me a friggin' break. Stop whinning and start playing.
 
C

chalkflewup

Hall of Fame
^^^
I hear ya on the whining but come on, Isner or Federer serving at Wimbledon is just a little different than junior tennis.
 
N

NLBwell

Legend
andfor said:
This supposed big deal so and so big time donor booster may have sent the email. But really, would a good college coach subject himself to being told who to recruit and not recruit by a booster based on observations of one match? Come on people..........That guy is a blow-hard.
Click to expand...

Depends on how much money he gives.
 
A

andfor

Legend
NLBwell said:
Depends on how much money he gives.
Click to expand...

Chances are those kids are not on the radar of the coach receiving the valuable intel from the expert tennis insider/no-it-all who happens to be a booster with a lot of money. A smart coach would say to the guy, "yea thanks for the info, I won't recruit those guy because I trust you so much". Then the coach would ask when that next donation is coming in.

Come on...............
 
N

Number1Coach

Banned
andfor said:
Yea and kids doing drugs and alcohol is a parenting problem.
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Of course it is a parenting problem ! If a kid is on drugs and booze then mom and pop have done a terrible job , if they are making bad line calls on purpose again mom and pop's have drop the ball again.
 
A

andfor

Legend
Number1Coach said:
Of course it is a parenting problem ! If a kid is on drugs and booze then mom and pop have done a terrible job , if they are making bad line calls on purpose again mom and pop's have drop the ball again.
Click to expand...

You obviously don't know much about drug and alcohol problems. You remember Todd Marinovich? His dad did a great job keeping him off junk food and on the straight and narrow, until he got to college.

You don't get the point either.

Cases of extreme cheating and it being the parents or coaches fault in tennis are often so over blown. Most just need to shut up and play tennis and stop blaming others for their shortcomings and loses. When more folks learn to accept real personal responsibility for what they do and don't do on the tennis court, they will then be on their way to achieving their maximum potential
 
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N

Number1Coach

Banned
andfor said:
You obviously don't know much about drug and alcohol problems. You remember Todd Marinovich? His dad did a great job keeping him off junk food and on the straight and narrow, until he got to college.

You don't get the point either.

Cases of extreme cheating and it being the parents or coaches fault in tennis are often so over blown. Most just need to shut up and play tennis and stop blaming others for their shortcomings and loses. When more folks learn to accept real personal responsibility for what they do and don't do on the tennis court, they will then be on their way to achieving their maximum potential
Click to expand...

On a average week I consumed a 8-ball of coke -a -cola a week and anywhere from a 1/8 to a quarter once was my cigar habit "hint hint" and yes I did inhale ,

There are those who have read a lot on the Vietnam war they are called experts on the subject then you can talk to a "vet" and hear a master speak on the subject .

I think I have a little insight on the subject you can call me master.

Todd's dad was and idiot but what he did and what parents should do are very different and can work without having that type of fallout .
 
A

andfor

Legend
Number1Coach said:
On a average week I consumed a 8-ball of coke -a -cola a week and anywhere from a 1/8 to a quarter once was my cigar habit "hint hint" and yes I did inhale ,

There are those who have read a lot on the Vietnam war they are called experts on the subject then you can talk to a "vet" and hear a master speak on the subject .

I think I have a little insight on the subject you can call me master.

Todd's dad was and idiot but what he did and what parents should do are very different and can work without having that type of fallout .
Click to expand...

How was your drug use your parents fault?
 
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N

NLBwell

Legend
andfor said:
Chances are those kids are not on the radar of the coach receiving the valuable intel from the expert tennis insider/no-it-all who happens to be a booster with a lot of money. A smart coach would say to the guy, "yea thanks for the info, I won't recruit those guy because I trust you so much". Then the coach would ask when that next donation is coming in.

Come on...............
Click to expand...

Exactly. But if it comes down to recruiting kid A, which would risk costing the tennis program $1,000,000 in future donations, or kid B, who is just as good (and there is always someone just as good), he'll go with kid B.
 
A

andfor

Legend
NLBwell said:
Exactly. But if it comes down to recruiting kid A, which would risk costing the tennis program $1,000,000 in future donations, or kid B, who is just as good (and there is always someone just as good), he'll go with kid B.
Click to expand...

The entire situation is all so unlikely.
 
N

Number1Coach

Banned
andfor said:
How was your drug use your parents fault?
Click to expand...

My parents like many focused on work "both of them", therefore quality time was left there for anyone who came across my path , also like so many parents they left it up to the public school system to raise me and teach me about what was safe and what my rights were against all who tried to get in the way of a lifestyle I was forming according to my own directions and guidence.

Now had my parents did their G-d given command and rights they would have made me a very important subject in their lives and made me the most important investment they had ,,,therefore any and all bad influences would have been fought off .

In return I like most would have started seeing the great boundrys they were placing around my life to protect me from the ugly hurricanes of life ,,these are the boundrys you place on your own life after years of screwing up.

Parents make and help sometimes break their children.
 
A

andfor

Legend
Number1Coach said:
My parents like many focused on work "both of them", therefore quality time was left there for anyone who came across my path , also like so many parents they left it up to the public school system to raise me and teach me about what was safe and what my rights were against all who tried to get in the way of a lifestyle I was forming according to my own directions and guidence.

Now had my parents did their G-d given command and rights they would have made me a very important subject in their lives and made me the most important investment they had ,,,therefore any and all bad influences would have been fought off .

In return I like most would have started seeing the great boundrys they were placing around my life to protect me from the ugly hurricanes of life ,,these are the boundrys you place on your own life after years of screwing up.

Parents make and help sometimes break their children.
Click to expand...

There's a degree of complexity. Thanks for explaining. In the end those choices are yours. With accusing one's own child of cheating and taking away tennis or some other deterrent measure is easier said than done. Show me a parent who says publicly his kid is a cheater, it will never happen. How parents deal with their kid cheating is usually handled privately. IMO kids obviously need to treat sportsmanship and fairness in tennis at the highest levels. Conversely, learning how to properly deal with a cheater is very important. Not only in tennis but life.
 
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