The Liar Syndrome

jc4.0 · Nov 15, 2012

When you clearly see that a ball was in, and your opponent calls it out from an extremely untenable position (completely across the court, where they have no business making a close call; while you are right on top of the ball, down the line from it in fact - and it absolutely hit smack on the line) - what do you do?

Politely ask to see a mark (on clay)? Knowing that the mark indicated will not be the right one, regardless...
Just give up the point, knowing 100% you just got hooked, and try not to let it bother you.
Tell the opponent you disagree, but will allow the call to stand, per the rules.

I've got news for you - until we all have "shot spot" or "hawkeye" installed on our courts, this discussion will never end. The end of this scenario never varies, unless you happen to be playing an exceptional "sport".

If you question a call for any reason - you will be perceived to call your opponent a LIAR. Where the h-ll does that come from?

None of us is perfect at making calls. Many times I prefer to play the point over, if my friendly opponent vehemently disagrees with a call I made. But I would never assume they are "calling me a liar".

Today, as you can guess, I played in just such a match. I hit a ball that my partner and I saw clearly on the line, but was called out by one opponent, who was completely across the court from it and could not have possibly properly made the call. Her partner just shrugged his shoulders and said "I dunno, didn't see it".

My partner and I responded calmly, "whatever, it's your call. We thought it was good but we accept your call." The female opponent, however, went absolutely BALLISTIC, ranting and raving on and on about how we were calling her a LIAR, and we should know her better than that, and it's her call, and we have no right to challenge her call, and so on.

Fact is, we weren't challenging her call, no matter that it was marginal; and nobody called anybody a liar! She let this get to her so much that she started playing like cr*p, and lost the match. Afterwards, she stomped off the court, refusing to shake hands - while the rest of us hung out together, having a cold drink and making match plans.

I don't feel like it's wrong to verbally, politely disagree on a call, do you? As long as it's done in a civil and non-accusatory manner, I feel better about saying what I'm feeling, and not holding it in. The call doesn't have to be reversed, we don't have to play it over - I readily accept the call - but I don't have to agree with it, because I simply didn't believe it. Should I pretend that I have changed my mind about this errant call?

To me - there is no reason to get emotional over anything on court - just not worth it, in any way. While the rest of us "moved on", this person lost the set because her ego and insecurity got in the way.

OrangePower · Nov 15, 2012

I had a very similar scenario a couple of weeks ago. I hit a passing shot down the line, and had a perfect view of it as it landed just *inside* the line (did not even touch the line). My opponent, who was at the net, and was in the act of turning around, looking behind him, and looking across the line, called it out. I asked him, "are you sure". He said yes, he saw space between the ball and the line. I half-jokingly said, yes, there was space, between the ball and the inside part of the line! But I left it at that - it's his call to make, and I'm not going to get worked up beyond mentioning that I saw it different.

After the match he apologized, said he felt bad but he really did see it out, and I told him no worries, we call them the way we see them. I have no doubt he thinks he saw it out, and I have no doubt it was in. Calls like that are going to happen, even with two honest players.

Cindysphinx · Nov 15, 2012

Was it a league/tournament match or social match? It sounds like it was supposed to be social if she declined to imbibe with the group later.

Me, I don't question line calls in social matches, ever. When you question a call, you are saying the person who made it was in error, cheated, lied, is blind or some combination of those things. If you want your friendly match to remain friendly, why go there? Just go in knowing that people will blow line calls sometimes and enjoy your tennis anyway.

If it is a league/tournament match, the most I will do is roll my eyes or laugh openly at a ridiculously bad line call. I see no point in aggressively questioning a line call because people do not change their calls no matter how loudly you ask, "Are you sure of your call?"

That's how I roll.

Andreas1965 · Nov 15, 2012

If my opponent makes constantly bad calls in a tournament or league match, I just wait for his next ball being clearly in. Then I call this ball "out" with a big grin. If he starts a discussion I simply tell him "my side, my judgement". The key is to be very, very stubborn, don't engage in a discussion! No let, no correction. Show him some random mark of an out-ball.

Most opponents get the message really quick. The result is (90% of all those matches) proper calling from then on.

Sidenote: I have a guy in my team who is notorious for his bad calls. He's the nicest guy you'll ever meet, he doesn't do this because of not being a good sport. He wears the thickest glasses I've ever seen and sometimes simply seems to be challenged by his vision.
Remember, not all bad-callers are cheaters.

woodrow1029 · Nov 15, 2012

Most people I play with know that I was a pretty good umpire, and they just don't cheat or try to make up stupid rules when they play against me.

If I don't know the person, I make sure to tell them before the match. LOL, just kidding.

jc4.0 · Nov 15, 2012

I agree, nobody should get worked up. But sometimes it's just a reflex, like, "wow, that was actually in." Then I back off and accept the call. No drama needed or called for.

What I disagree with is just what you said - NOBODY IS CALLING ANYBODY A LIAR. Why go there? Nobody is perfect in terms of line calls. Just realize that, and we'll all have a nice day.

Cindysphinx · Nov 15, 2012

jc4.0 said:
I agree, nobody should get worked up. But sometimes it's just a reflex, like, "wow, that was actually in." Then I back off and accept the call. No drama needed or called for.

What I disagree with is just what you said - NOBODY IS CALLING ANYBODY A LIAR. Why go there? Nobody is perfect in terms of line calls. Just realize that, and we'll all have a nice day.

If you accept an opponent's close call without question, you are behaving as though you trust them to call lines honestly and competently.

If you question a call with "wow, that was actually in," you are behaving as though they either made a mistake, cheated, hooked, are incompetent, didn't give benefit of the doubt etc. Surely you see why someone might take umbrage at the insinuation in a social match, yes?

If you want to lessen the impact of the insinuation, it is probably best to stick with a question ("Are you sure?") than declarative statements that you are calling the lines on their side of the court better than they can.

Or keep doing what you're doing and don't sweat it if folks hate you for it. :shrug :

jc4.0 · Nov 15, 2012

Cindysphinx said:
If you accept an opponent's close call without question, you are behaving as though you trust them to call lines honestly and competently.

If you question a call with "wow, that was actually in," you are behaving as though they either made a mistake, cheated, hooked, are incompetent, didn't give benefit of the doubt etc. Surely you see why someone might take umbrage at the insinuation in a social match, yes?

If you want to lessen the impact of the insinuation, it is probably best to stick with a question ("Are you sure?") than declarative statements that you are calling the lines on their side of the court better than they can.

Or keep doing what you're doing and don't sweat it if folks hate you for it. :shrug :

So tell us again - what do you say when someone plays your serve that you thought was out?

I disagree, it depends on how you say it. If your skin is so thin that you feel you are being called a liar every time you make an iffy call, find another sport. I see no difference whatsoever in saying "are you sure?" and "that looked in". The meaning is exactly the same - and that meaning is not "you're a liar!" Fact is, your sad insecurities made you interpret it that way. Grow up! If anyone thinks they have never made a bad call, then you are completely delusional. Sometimes I can make a call better than you. If you hate me for it, I think that hatred comes from a place that should be discussed with your psychologist, not brought to a tennis match.

Roforot · Nov 15, 2012

Actually I find it entertaining watching the challenges in pro tennis. Granted the speeds and spin are much higher, but I find that at a third of the time, the players are wrong about balls they thought were in. Some players are even less than 50%. If the pros can be wrong, then I'm sure we may not be as accurate as we believe.

One retired pro once said he figured on getting 4 bad calls a match and never worried about it. Don't know what he'd do if there was a 5th? I apologize b/c I can't remember his name now. I haven't had more than 1 or 2 bad calls against me in a match.

woodrow1029 · Nov 15, 2012

Roforot said:
Actually I find it entertaining watching the challenges in pro tennis. Granted the speeds and spin are much higher, but I find that at a third of the time, the players are wrong about balls they thought were in. Some players are even less than 50%. If the pros can be wrong, then I'm sure we may not be as accurate as we believe.

One retired pro once said he figured on getting 4 bad calls a match and never worried about it. Don't know what he'd do if there was a 5th? I apologize b/c I can't remember his name now. I haven't had more than 1 or 2 bad calls against me in a match.

The players' are actually wrong about 2/3 of the time.

Cindysphinx · Nov 15, 2012

jc4.0 said:
So tell us again - what do you say when someone plays your serve that you thought was out?

Huh?

If my opponent returns my serve that I thought was out, I play the point.

If my opponent returns a serve that was obviously out and she signals it as out, then she has violated the Code. In a social match, I say nothing about this and do not correct her for her error in etiquette.

In a league match, I usually do not say anything for a couple of reasons.

First, my partner is probably doing the same bloody thing, so I don't want to start a war by calling out my opponents.

Second, stopping my service game to argue about the Code will likely make me lose focus and play poorly.

Third . . . I feel like a salmon swimming upstream on the returning of Obviously Out Serves. It is probably the Code provision that is violated more frequently than any other at my level (3.5/4.0). I just don't have the energy to launch a crusade, so I just grind my teeth and live with it.

I have given up, and the Obviously Out Fault returners have won.

jc4.0 · Nov 15, 2012

Cindysphinx said:
Huh?

If my opponent returns my serve that I thought was out, I play the point.

If my opponent returns a serve that was obviously out and she signals it as out, then she has violated the Code. In a social match, I say nothing about this and do not correct her for her error in etiquette.

In a league match, I usually do not say anything for a couple of reasons.

First, my partner is probably doing the same bloody thing, so I don't want to start a war by calling out my opponents.

Second, stopping my service game to argue about the Code will likely make me lose focus and play poorly.

Third . . . I feel like a salmon swimming upstream on the returning of Obviously Out Serves. It is probably the Code provision that is violated more frequently than any other at my level (3.5/4.0). I just don't have the energy to launch a crusade, so I just grind my teeth and live with it.

I have given up, and the Obviously Out Fault returners have won.

Well, that is a very reasonable attitude. I applaud you.
I'll go now, I have little time available to irritate everyone in these posts - hope I have added a little spice to the day. Love me or hate me!!! Don't really care, but have a great game tomorrow, I know I will!

beernutz · Nov 15, 2012

jc4.0 said:
Well, that is a very reasonable attitude. I applaud you.
I'll go now, I have little time available to irritate everyone in these posts - hope I have added a little spice to the day. Love me or hate me!!! Don't really care, but have a great game tomorrow, I know I will!

schmke · Nov 15, 2012

woodrow1029 said:
The players' are actually wrong about 2/3 of the time.

Part of that is because they issue some challenges on the hope it was out when it was a clear winner or ace on/near the line. They have 3 challenges, and if you are right you keep them, so why not?

If they only challenged balls they genuinely thought were out, their ratio would be significantly higher IMHO.

woodrow1029 · Nov 15, 2012

schmke said:
Part of that is because they issue some challenges on the hope it was out when it was a clear winner or ace on/near the line. They have 3 challenges, and if you are right you keep them, so why not?

If they only challenged balls they genuinely thought were out, their ratio would be significantly higher IMHO.

Maybe by a couple of percentage points, but definitely not by a difference of 33%.

beernutz · Nov 15, 2012

woodrow1029 said:
The players' are actually wrong about 2/3 of the time.

From http://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/scores/challenge/index.html

Code:

[FONT="Courier New"]Singles Challenge Summary
                                      Men's      Women's
Total Number of Challenges          428        191
Number of Correct Challenges        120	       49
Number of Incorrect Challenges      308	       142
Percentage Overturned               28.04%     25.65%
Avg. Challenges per Match           7.78       4.06


Challenge % Leaders - Men's singles
Rank	  Player	Challenges	Overturned	% Overturned
1	  Sergiy Stakhovsky	1	1	100%
2	  Tomas Berdych	3	2	66.67%
3	  Grega Zemlja	5	3	60%
4	  Igor Andreev	8	4	50%
4	  Jeremy Chardy	6	3	50%
4	  David Goffin	4	2	50%
4	  Julien Benneteau	4	2	50%
4	  Brian Baker	2	1	50%
4	  Nikolay Davydenko	2	1	50%
4	  Guillermo Garcia-Lopez	2	1	50%
11	  Novak Djokovic	20	9	45%
12	  Lukas Rosol	7	3	42.86%
13	  Mardy Fish	15	6	40%
13	  Bernard Tomic	5	2	40%
13	  Grigor Dimitrov	5	2	40%
16	  David Ferrer	17	6	35.29%
17	  Sam Querrey	18	6	33.33%
17	  Andy Roddick	12	4	33.33%
17	  Xavier Malisse	9	3	33.33%
17	  Juan Martin Del Potro	9	3	33.33%
17	  Benoit Paire	6	2	33.33%
17	  Mikhail Youzhny	3	1	33.33%
17	  Guillaume Rufin	3	1	33.33%
17	  John Isner	3	1	33.33%
17	  Ryan Sweeting	3	1	33.33%
26	  Marin Cilic	16	5	31.25%
27	  James Ward	10	3	30%
28	  Nicolas Almagro	11	3	27.27%
29	  Andy Murray	40	10	25%
29	  Jo-Wilfried Tsonga	24	6	25%
29	  Kei Nishikori	4	1	25%
29	  Florian Mayer	4	1	25%
29	  Kenny De Schepper	4	1	25%
29	  Ivo Karlovic	4	1	25%
29	  Alejandro Falla	4	1	25%
29	  Lleyton Hewitt	4	1	25%
29	  Gilles Simon	4	1	25%
29	  Ryan Harrison	4	1	25%
29	  Fernando Verdasco	4	1	25%
29	  David Nalbandian	4	1	25%
29	  Juan Monaco	4	1	25%
42	  Roger Federer	21	5	23.81%
43	  Oliver Golding	9	2	22.22%
44	  Fabio Fognini	5	1	20%
44	  Ernests Gulbis	5	1	20%
46	  Richard Gasquet	6	1	16.67%
47	  Janko Tipsarevic	15	2	13.33%
48	  Viktor Troicki	7	0	0%
48	  Milos Raonic	6	0	0%
48	  Lukas Lacko	5	0	0%
48	  Rafael Nadal	4	0	0%
48	  Philipp Kohlschreiber	4	0	0%
48	  Radek Stepanek	4	0	0%
48	  Bjorn Phau	3	0	0%
48	  Thomaz Bellucci	2	0	0%
48	  Jamie Baker	2	0	0%
48	  Marcos Baghdatis	2	0	0%
48	  Albert Ramos	2	0	0%
48	  Kevin Anderson	2	0	0%
48	  Robin Haase	2	0	0%
48	  Josh Goodall	2	0	0%
48	  Ruben Bemelmans	2	0	0%
48	  Juan Carlos Ferrero	1	0	0%
Top 10 | Show All[/FONT]

These two players particularly stand out to me:
47 Janko Tipsarevic 15 challenges with only 2 overturned (13.33% correct)
48 Viktor Troicki 7 challenges with 0 overturned (0% correct)

woodrow1029 · Nov 15, 2012

beernutz said:

From http://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/scores/challenge/index.html

Code:

[FONT=Courier New]Singles Challenge Summary[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]                                     Men's      Women's[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]Total Number of Challenges          428        191[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]Number of Correct Challenges        120           49[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]Number of Incorrect Challenges      308           142[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]Percentage Overturned               28.04%     25.65%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]Avg. Challenges per Match           7.78       4.06[/FONT]
 
 
[FONT=Courier New]Challenge % Leaders - Men's singles[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]Rank      Player    Challenges    Overturned    % Overturned[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]1      Sergiy Stakhovsky    1    1    100%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]2      Tomas Berdych    3    2    66.67%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]3      Grega Zemlja    5    3    60%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]4      Igor Andreev    8    4    50%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]4      Jeremy Chardy    6    3    50%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]4      David Goffin    4    2    50%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]4      Julien Benneteau    4    2    50%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]4      Brian Baker    2    1    50%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]4      Nikolay Davydenko    2    1    50%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]4      Guillermo Garcia-Lopez    2    1    50%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]11      Novak Djokovic    20    9    45%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]12      Lukas Rosol    7    3    42.86%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]13      Mardy Fish    15    6    40%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]13      Bernard Tomic    5    2    40%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]13      Grigor Dimitrov    5    2    40%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]16      David Ferrer    17    6    35.29%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]17      Sam Querrey    18    6    33.33%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]17      Andy Roddick    12    4    33.33%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]17      Xavier Malisse    9    3    33.33%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]17      Juan Martin Del Potro    9    3    33.33%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]17      Benoit Paire    6    2    33.33%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]17      Mikhail Youzhny    3    1    33.33%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]17      Guillaume Rufin    3    1    33.33%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]17      John Isner    3    1    33.33%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]17      Ryan Sweeting    3    1    33.33%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]26      Marin Cilic    16    5    31.25%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]27      James Ward    10    3    30%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]28      Nicolas Almagro    11    3    27.27%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]29      Andy Murray    40    10    25%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]29      Jo-Wilfried Tsonga    24    6    25%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]29      Kei Nishikori    4    1    25%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]29      Florian Mayer    4    1    25%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]29      Kenny De Schepper    4    1    25%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]29      Ivo Karlovic    4    1    25%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]29      Alejandro Falla    4    1    25%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]29      Lleyton Hewitt    4    1    25%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]29      Gilles Simon    4    1    25%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]29      Ryan Harrison    4    1    25%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]29      Fernando Verdasco    4    1    25%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]29      David Nalbandian    4    1    25%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]29      Juan Monaco    4    1    25%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]42      Roger Federer    21    5    23.81%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]43      Oliver Golding    9    2    22.22%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]44      Fabio Fognini    5    1    20%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]44      Ernests Gulbis    5    1    20%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]46      Richard Gasquet    6    1    16.67%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]47      Janko Tipsarevic    15    2    13.33%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]48      Viktor Troicki    7    0    0%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]48      Milos Raonic    6    0    0%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]48      Lukas Lacko    5    0    0%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]48      Rafael Nadal    4    0    0%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]48      Philipp Kohlschreiber    4    0    0%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]48      Radek Stepanek    4    0    0%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]48      Bjorn Phau    3    0    0%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]48      Thomaz Bellucci    2    0    0%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]48      Jamie Baker    2    0    0%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]48      Marcos Baghdatis    2    0    0%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]48      Albert Ramos    2    0    0%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]48      Kevin Anderson    2    0    0%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]48      Robin Haase    2    0    0%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]48      Josh Goodall    2    0    0%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]48      Ruben Bemelmans    2    0    0%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]48      Juan Carlos Ferrero    1    0    0%[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New]Top 10 | Show All[/FONT]

These two players particularly stand out to me:
47 Janko Tipsarevic 15 challenges with only 2 overturned (13.33% correct)
48 Viktor Troicki 7 challenges with 0 overturned (0% correct)

Troicki certainly doesn't surprise me. That boy has always thought that every close call was wrong that an umpire made, back to when he was playing challengers.

J011yroger · Nov 15, 2012

Hey Cindy.

The ball landed in, and the person called it out. What's the big deal about calling them a liar? They are one.

J

Maui19 · Nov 15, 2012

I've watched a bunch of league matches over the past few months. I was quite surprised at the number of people who got worked up over calls that were actually correct. IOW, the people who got upset about being hooked were wrong a vast majority of the time. Something for all of us to keep in mind as we play.

dizzlmcwizzl · Nov 15, 2012

Depends on who I am playing with ... but if I am going to say anything it would be ....

"Dude, that was in" ....

Usually I say nothing, but if I am sure I have no qualms about saying so.

Sumo · Nov 15, 2012

dizzlmcwizzl said:
Depends on who I am playing with ... but if I am going to say anything it would be ....

"Dude, that was in" ....

Usually I say nothing, but if I am sure I have no qualms about saying so.

This is how I've done it the one or two times I ever have.

Also, I would only ever say anything on sideline calls. Baseline and service line calls are too difficult to see to call someone out. This is also the reason I think it's ridiculous when people say they can see if someone is footfaulting by inches.

Avles · Nov 15, 2012

Sumo said:
This is how I've done it the one or two times I ever have.

Also, I would only ever say anything on sideline calls. Baseline and service line calls are too difficult to see to call someone out. This is also the reason I think it's ridiculous when people say they can see if someone is footfaulting by inches.

Totally agree. If I ever challenged an opponent's call (and tbh I've yet to be in a situation where I felt strongly enough about it to do so) that's how I'd do it-- rather than asking "are you sure," which carries the implication that your opponent actually wasn't sure and might be fudging the call. Better to focus on what actually happened than start questioning people's mentalities and motivations.

And if I'm not certain enough to confidently say "that was in," I don't think I'm certain enough to make an issue out of it.

Angle Queen · Nov 15, 2012

C'mon, gals. Play nice.

If it's social, either keep it to yourself, question it as a joke....or declare it...and accept the consequence (take the point...or lose a friend).

If it's for real, well then, ask for clarification...once...and then just roll with the punches. Hit the ball at "The T"....and it can't be called out...so that, at our recreational level, your opponent will make the subsequent error. That you can then, clearly, call out.

JoelDali · Nov 15, 2012

Spider veins and Mixed Doubles are the enemy of the enlightened man.

Cindysphinx · Nov 16, 2012

Angle Queen said:
C'mon, gals. Play nice.

If it's social, either keep it to yourself, question it as a joke....or declare it...and accept the consequence (take the point...or lose a friend).

If it's for real, well then, ask for clarification...once...and then just roll with the punches. Hit the ball at "The T"....and it can't be called out...so that, at our recreational level, your opponent will make the subsequent error. That you can then, clearly, call out.

I find that opponents will also mistakes on T serves. The problem is the receiver should call that center line because she is looking down it, but the receiver's partner often feels like she should call it because she is closer. This causes the receiver's partner to err on balls that clip the outside of the line in a situation she she could not possibly have seen space.

I tell my partners that I want them only to call the service line when I am receiving, and that I will not be calling the far sideline and center line when they are receiving. It cuts way down on partner disputes where we forfeit a point.

Angle Queen · Nov 16, 2012

Cindysphinx said:
I find that opponents will also mistakes on T serves.

Oops. I should have been more specific. I was suggesting to hit the ball in the middle of the court...during a rally...not necessarily on the serve.

But I'm with you, I only expect my net partner to call the service line and neither the center or sideline. Occasionally, they'll call a particularly egregious call that I am/was hopelessly out of position (or out of focus!) to call.

Still, I've never felt a "question" of my call was an indictment of my integrity. They just saw it differently than I did. I'd be hard pressed, though, to remember the last time a questioned call came up in USTA play by me or an opponent. We must be a little more easy-goin' around here.

Cindysphinx · Nov 16, 2012

Angle Queen said:
Still, I've never felt a "question" of my call was an indictment of my integrity. They just saw it differently than I did. I'd be hard pressed, though, to remember the last time a questioned call came up in USTA play by me or an opponent. We must be a little more easy-goin' around here.

Ironically, the more uncommon it is for people to question a call, the more people take it as an insult because it is out of the ordinary.

I found people questioned calls a lot in ladies 2.5/3.0 (perhaps due to our collective lack of experience). I find hardly anyone questions calls in mixed 7.0 and 8.0. The only time I have seen two guys get into a snit in mixed about line calls was when both were 3.5s. I don't think any of this reflects lack of honesty, necessarily. I think part of it is that the ball is coming faster and it is hard to focus on hitting it when you are calling the line also.

In contrast, my 4.5 partner seemed to call the lines unbelievably generously. Sometimes I was like, "Wow, I can't believe he played that ball!"

sportlerin · Nov 16, 2012

Angle Queen said:
Still, I've never felt a "question" of my call was an indictment of my integrity. They just saw it differently than I did. I'd be hard pressed, though, to remember the last time a questioned call came up in USTA play by me or an opponent. We must be a little more easy-goin' around here.

One thing that irks me is an opponent who will aggressively question out calls of their balls that sail six inches beyond the baseline. Not because I feel my integrity is being challenged, but because imo a real tennis player should feel it in their shot, that a ball is clearly long.

NTexas · Nov 16, 2012

sportlerin said:
, but because imo a real tennis player should feel it in their shot, that a ball is clearly long.

I feel the same way, when i hit it i usually know in or out just by feel of the shot. but i totally think people get way to worked up by line calls and most people make asses of themselves. i mean come on people its a game, we do it for stress relief not added stress by the game or the calls.

Cindysphinx · Nov 16, 2012

I played mixed doubles tonight with a female friend and two guys I didn't know at all. The two guys knew each other.

Early in the match, one guy called a ball out on the far sideline. I was standing on the line. The ball was totally in.

In light of this thread, I waited to see what would happen.

My partner looked at me and said, "Did they call that out?" I said, "Yup."

He raised his eyebrows, shrugged, walked to the baseline and said, "30-15." Then he body-served the guy for a service winner.

JoelDali · Nov 17, 2012

Cindysphinx said:
I played mixed doubles tonight.

Just. Stop.

Focus on you and what Cindy wants.

This tennis thing must come to an end if your true dreams are to come true.

PrimeChoice · Nov 17, 2012

Hey! Guess who it is? Captin Hook!
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/...ISdKfSzxa1iArDDZZuv5KHf2K5Bz7cVf3Z1GOGkfSnYbp

corbind · Nov 19, 2012

Opponents calling balls out that were in becomes a bad deal. The OP is right on how it goes and Cindy is smart in just accepting what happens and move on. The reality is ONE bad call will generally not change who wins. Three? Five? Ten bad calls? Somewhere in there the game dynamic changes and emotions get super-charged and everything becomes aggressive.

To question an opponent on a line call is telling them you think they are wrong and you want the point. There is NO other reason to do such!

I almost always know the opponents I play as they are my friends. If they call a ball out and I see it as in I’ll walk up to the net and say so. I ask each of the three other players on the court what they saw and go from there. If the three of them say it was out and I thought it was in likely I’m wrong.

In fact every couple of sets I hit a serve that gets called in and often gets flubbed for our point. Yet I tell them it was out (usually if it’s a serve down the T on as I have a good look if it’s wide or not but not necessarily if too deep or in). Many times I protest my serve was wide or long and they won’t budge – they say it’s in.

I walk back to the baseline shaking my head wondering how I can be wrong or why are they giving me an unearned point? I don’t like charity and would much prefer to earn all my points. Yet on the converse I’d prefer to call their shots in if it’s questionable because it makes me feel better. I don’t want argument. They get the benefit-of-my-doubt.

Yet, if I were a smart man, I’d just accept what others see and simply play tennis. In the long-run incorrect calls should average out (well in theory) and very seldom change the outcome of who wins. Yet I have not become a smart man yet so I’ll still let opponents know if I think they are wrong.

(This thread was created just 4 days ago yet jc4.0 is "banned" below his/her name?)

woodrow1029 · Nov 19, 2012

corbind said:
(This thread was created just 4 days ago yet jc4.0 is "banned" below his/her name?)

LOL. such a shame. She was such a great contributor to TT.

Maui19 · Nov 19, 2012

corbind said:
(This thread was created just 4 days ago yet jc4.0 is "banned" below his/her name?)

Huh?

corbind · Nov 20, 2012

Maui19 said:
Huh?

I believe I saw the word "banned" under the OP's name when I posed last in this thread 36 hours ago. As of a few minutes ago I see it says "Semi-pro" so I apparently gotta lay off the crack (just kiddin' of course) and stop hallucinating! :shock:

TheCheese · Nov 20, 2012

If it's just a friendly match, who cares?

If it's a competitive match, who cares if they think you think they're a liar. Call someone over to call the lines.

Fusker · Nov 20, 2012

jc4.0 said:
When you clearly see that a ball was in, and your opponent calls it out from an extremely untenable position (completely across the court, where they have no business making a close call; while you are right on top of the ball, down the line from it in fact - and it absolutely hit smack on the line) - what do you do?

Politely ask to see a mark (on clay)? Knowing that the mark indicated will not be the right one, regardless...

Just give up the point, knowing 100% you just got hooked, and try not to let it bother you.

Tell the opponent you disagree, but will allow the call to stand, per the rules.

This is a perfect situation where if I'm the guy out of position, would ask you how you saw the call. Unfortunately, my request is always met with "Sorry, couldn't tell" or "I think it was good."

On the other hand, I've had a couple of these happen to me recently where I hit a little drop volley right on the line (shouldn't have cut it that close, but did) while the opponent is hustling to get to it. Ball lands clearly on the outer half of the line and gets called out. I'm feet away from it as opposed to half a court away. Usually I just shrug it off and squirrel it away that he's going to call them that way.

Bedrock · Nov 20, 2012

jc4.0 said:
When you clearly see that a ball was in, and your opponent calls it out from an extremely untenable position (completely across the court, where they have no business making a close call; while you are right on top of the ball, down the line from it in fact - and it absolutely hit smack on the line) - what do you do?

Politely ask to see a mark (on clay)? Knowing that the mark indicated will not be the right one, regardless...

Just give up the point, knowing 100% you just got hooked, and try not to let it bother you.

Tell the opponent you disagree, but will allow the call to stand, per the rules.

I've got news for you - until we all have "shot spot" or "hawkeye" installed on our courts, this discussion will never end. The end of this scenario never varies, unless you happen to be playing an exceptional "sport".

If you question a call for any reason - you will be perceived to call your opponent a LIAR. Where the h-ll does that come from?

None of us is perfect at making calls. Many times I prefer to play the point over, if my friendly opponent vehemently disagrees with a call I made. But I would never assume they are "calling me a liar".

Today, as you can guess, I played in just such a match. I hit a ball that my partner and I saw clearly on the line, but was called out by one opponent, who was completely across the court from it and could not have possibly properly made the call. Her partner just shrugged his shoulders and said "I dunno, didn't see it".

My partner and I responded calmly, "whatever, it's your call. We thought it was good but we accept your call." The female opponent, however, went absolutely BALLISTIC, ranting and raving on and on about how we were calling her a LIAR, and we should know her better than that, and it's her call, and we have no right to challenge her call, and so on.

Fact is, we weren't challenging her call, no matter that it was marginal; and nobody called anybody a liar! She let this get to her so much that she started playing like cr*p, and lost the match. Afterwards, she stomped off the court, refusing to shake hands - while the rest of us hung out together, having a cold drink and making match plans.

I don't feel like it's wrong to verbally, politely disagree on a call, do you? As long as it's done in a civil and non-accusatory manner, I feel better about saying what I'm feeling, and not holding it in. The call doesn't have to be reversed, we don't have to play it over - I readily accept the call - but I don't have to agree with it, because I simply didn't believe it. Should I pretend that I have changed my mind about this errant call?

To me - there is no reason to get emotional over anything on court - just not worth it, in any way. While the rest of us "moved on", this person lost the set because her ego and insecurity got in the way.

For sure - Tell the opponent you disagree, but will allow the call to stand, per the rules.
But it depends and maybe this is not it.

JoelDali · Nov 21, 2012

Girls on the L train.

All liars.

andfor · Nov 21, 2012

In Chicago Axel's are sometimes known as Rod's.

3fees · Dec 2, 2012

I question the call, then move on to the next point

:mrgreen:

Big_Dangerous · Dec 3, 2012

J011yroger said:
Hey Cindy.

The ball landed in, and the person called it out. What's the big deal about calling them a liar? They are one.

J

Or you may have perceived that it landed in. I have that problem with people in league matches more often than anything else. They hit balls that are relatively close but clearly out and then I signal out and they complain... So annoying dealing with that, and I'm glad I'm taking a nice long break from playing league matches.

yourmailman · Dec 3, 2012

All-righty then!

I played a mixed doubles match not too long ago, and our opponents' line calling was atrocious. Serves that skidded off the line were all called out, most of them late calls to boot. One slice serve that hit the outside line (deuce side) was returned into the net and the receiver moved toward the net as if to acknowledge the point was over and he was positioning himself for the next point, only to have his partner say "No, that was out". He then backed up and claimed the ball was out as well.

Add to that several calls of long on balls that clearly landed on the baseline. One call was made in unison before the ball landed ... just inside the baseline. (This was on a critical point that could have turned the match.) I could see my partner was getting frustrated, so I called her over and told her not to worry about it, we would just continue with our game plan, which had been working pretty good. On the next point, I wound up like I was going to hit a screamer and pulled back on it for a drop shot winner. I secretly thought to myself ... "Let's see them call that one out".

I do not question an opponent's call. It is their call to make, even if it is wrong. If they are unsure, they can ask (but most won't). I also do not let it get me so upset that it affects my game.

Apparently, that is not the easiest thing to do.

After all of what my partner and I perceived as terrible calls throughout the first set and a half on their part with no questioning from us, both my partner and I called a serve out. Our opponents became outraged and clearly stated that the ball was in, even though it was called long by both of us as soon as it hit. We both reiterated that it was indeed just long. I even went so far as to tell them it did hit the singles sideline behind the service line, so it may have looked good from their angle, but it was indeed out.

Our opponent then began serving as hard as he could in obvious anger on first and second serves and wound up double faulting the game away. I thought the anger would subside on my partner's serve, but I was wrong. Ball after ball was struck with immense force, most of them sailing long or being dumped into the net. Some were even hit at us, which is a legal thing to do, but I think it showed the immaturity of our opponents.

We wound up winning the match against a team we probably should have lost to because they couldn't control their anger over one perceived bad call.

If you are the victim of bad line calling, let it go. Adjust your game and get on with playing your best. Chances are, you will end up on the "W" side of the ledger.

Nobody gets the calls right all the time. Do your best and be honest, win or lose. I can't control other peoples' actions, so why waste the energy. Channel it into hitting the next shot, not arguing over a call. I think this is a strategy that will work well for just about everyone (except John McEnroe).

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