Toni Nadal on Rage

Crisstti

Legend
Yep Vernon, precisely. I think we know the reason for that also.

During Puerta's time and before there was a whole nest of Argentines doping, all of whom could be considered as 'high level' players including Guillermo Canas who was caught with masking agent. I played there three years on the trot and I always remember a tournament doctor laughing at me when I asked about South American players doping. His attitude was that they all did, routinely, or certainly the Argentine ones. That was the impression he gave me. South America is a tennis backwater. Federer's never played there for example. The local players do what they want, more or less.

Well, Toni said after.

Federer's never played there because there isn't even a masters there.

He probably wouldn't have, actually.

Despite the fact that he's one of the top two players ever on the surface (arguably the best one), Nadal has also been thriving against dismal clay competition, with *zero* top clay-court specialist around (him excepted). Put him alongside guys like Muster, Brugera, Courier (and to a lesser extent, Costa and Moya) and would he win seven RG's? Very probably not. Maybe he doesn't even tie Borg's record in these conditions.

Lol, Rafa was beating Costa and Moya on clay when he was 15 years old. And in straight sets at that.

Honestly, if hardcourts were universally sped up, there would be less grinding and therefore less injury because of the speed of play. I personally think that's the solution instead of more clay. Of course, that'd make Uncle Toni whine even more...
 

loci

Rookie
The Nadals have to remember that the tour is a business model designed for exposure and the increase of revenue and investment bound by a legal framework that can't be changed on the whim for coaches. I'm going to cut to the chase. Does Toni Nadal have a financial stake in the ATP Tour outside of his nephew showing up at tournaments to collect appearance fees and paychecks? Does he invest his own capital into the Tour? I don't think so. Until he starts pouring all his resources into the coffers of the ATP, he should cut out the nonsense. He's not entitled to make policy for the tour. He's a coach working under the auspices of a player, for goodness sake, doesn't he realize that?
 

Crisstti

Legend
The Nadals have to remember that the tour is a business model designed for exposure and the increase of revenue and investment bound by a legal framework that can't be changed on the whim for coaches. I'm going to cut to the chase. Does Toni Nadal have a financial stake in the ATP Tour outside of his nephew showing up at tournaments to collect appearance fees and paychecks? Does he invest his own capital into the Tour? I don't think so. Until he starts pouring all his resources into the coffers of the ATP, he should cut out the nonsense. He's not entitled to make policy for the tour. He's a coach working under the auspices of a player, for goodness sake, doesn't he realize that?

He's entitled to say what he thinks.
 
N

nikdom

Guest
He's entitled to say what he thinks.

Most of what he says though is on par with suresh's mental level, which is to say, that of an immature teenager trapped in an adult body.

After all the success him and his pupil have had, I don't see a whole lot of respect or appreciation for the game that has given them so much.

It seems like the short-sighted, selfish thinking of the junior league has stayed with both of them. The gamesmanship on court that Nadal displays even today goes hand in hand with Toni's self serving talk. If anything, Rafa may have grown up a little more than his bush league uncle.

If you need any further proof that uncle Toni is the Spanish suresh, here is another statement from the news today

Talking about his rivals, Toni laughingly said: "I hope now Roger Federer and Novak Djokovic will get injured"

I mean what kind of grown up man talks like that? If indeed Rafa has gone through a tough injury, I would expect that someone with any maturity would say " I hope no one has to go through what my nephew did". Not the crap he spewed above, however laughingly.

http://www.tennisearth.com/news/ten...nd-Novak-Djokovic-will-get-injured-478826.htm
 

Razoredge

Banned
He probably wouldn't have, actually.

Despite the fact that he's one of the top two players ever on the surface (arguably the best one), Nadal has also been thriving against dismal clay competition, with *zero* top clay-court specialist around (him excepted). Put him alongside guys like Muster, Brugera, Courier (and to a lesser extent, Costa and Moya) and would he win seven RG's? Very probably not. Maybe he doesn't even tie Borg's record in these conditions.



Sampras on clay never was an issue, as he would never have gotten far enough to play Nadal anyway.
Oh. My. God.

THIS GUY WAS BEATING THE HELL OUT OF SEVERAL PEOPLE YOU MENTIONED AS A TEENAGER.

THIS GUY DEMOLISHED THE REST OF THE FIELD ON HIS WAY TO THE TITLE AT THE VERY FIRST FRENCH OPEN HE PLAYED AS A TEENAGER. HE DIDN'T LOSE ANOTHER UNTIL 4 YEAR LATERS AND THAT WAS JUST A FLUKE.

HE IS THE CLAY COURT KING AND HE WOULD MAKE EVERY OTHER CLAY COURT SPECIALIST IN HISTORY LOOK LIKE A GRASS COURT SPECIALIST
 

edmondsm

Legend
Exactly. And there should definitely be a grass masters.

While I agree 100%, I just don't see it ever happening. In a money driven world tournament directors are never going to convert to a surface that is many times more expensive to maintain, and much more fragile. A lot of these big hardcourt venues are able to host other events like concerts and such. Any such event on a grass surface would completely ruin it.
 

vive le beau jeu !

Talk Tennis Guru
Oh. My. God.

THIS GUY WAS BEATING THE HELL OUT OF SEVERAL PEOPLE YOU MENTIONED AS A TEENAGER.

THIS GUY DEMOLISHED THE REST OF THE FIELD ON HIS WAY TO THE TITLE AT THE VERY FIRST FRENCH OPEN HE PLAYED AS A TEENAGER. HE DIDN'T LOSE ANOTHER UNTIL 4 YEAR LATERS AND THAT WAS JUST A FLUKE.

HE IS THE CLAY COURT KING AND HE WOULD MAKE EVERY OTHER CLAY COURT SPECIALIST IN HISTORY LOOK LIKE A GRASS COURT SPECIALIST
16677461091531960_4wzeRXvL_c.jpg
 

Crisstti

Legend
Most of what he says though is on par with suresh's mental level, which is to say, that of an immature teenager trapped in an adult body.

No, it really isn't.

I mean what kind of grown up man talks like that? If indeed Rafa has gone through a tough injury, I would expect that someone with any maturity would say " I hope no one has to go through what my nephew did". Not the crap he spewed above, however laughingly.

http://www.tennisearth.com/news/ten...nd-Novak-Djokovic-will-get-injured-478826.htm

I'd like to see the actual source for that.
 

6-1 6-3 6-0

Banned

Mainad

Bionic Poster
South America is a tennis backwater.

A backwater? This is the continent that has produced players like Maria Bueno, Gustavo Kuerten (Brazil), Guillermo Vilas, Gabriela Sabatini, Guillermo Coria, David Nalbandian, Juan Martin Del Potro (Argentina), Marcelo Rios, Fernando Gonzalez (Chile), all GS winners or finalists, many former world #1s and holders of many other big titles. Alao many other lesser players too but well-known on the men's and women's tours.

Backwater seems a bit harsh, don't you think?
 
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SwankPeRFection

Hall of Fame
Blah blah, my nephew can only play well on clay, blah blah blah, we need more clay tournaments so he can win more, blah blah blah.

Did I miss something or is that basically what the article said? lol
 
M

monfed

Guest
Blah blah, my nephew can only play well on clay, blah blah blah, we need more clay tournaments so he can win more, blah blah blah.

Did I miss something or is that basically what the article said? lol

Nope, you got it. :lol:
 

Crisstti

Legend
Blah blah, my nephew can only play well on clay, blah blah blah, we need more clay tournaments so he can win more, blah blah blah.

Did I miss something or is that basically what the article said? lol

To think of how much Rafa would win (and how much Fed would not) if there were less hard courts is hard on ****s, I know. It's all you can see in this argument because of that.
 

tistrapukcipeht

Professional
Clay is for grinders.

If any type of surface needed more tournaments there is not a doubt in my mind that it'd have to be GRASS and, yes, more of them BLUE CLAY .

I particularly don't care about the Miami, so if they switched that one for a blue clay here in US would be awesome, the beginning of clay season here in US then going to Monaco....

It's funny how the Nadal clan only want what is best for them and not for everybody, if it was for them they'd play on mug and on clay all year long.
 

Crisstti

Legend
Clay is for grinders.

If any type of surface needed more tournaments there is not a doubt in my mind that it'd have to be GRASS and, yes, more of them BLUE CLAY .

I particularly don't care about the Miami, so if they switched that one for a blue clay here in US would be awesome, the beginning of clay season here in US then going to Monaco....

It's funny how the Nadal clan only want what is best for them and not for everybody, if it was for them they'd play on mug and on clay all year long.

Sure, hard courts are what is best for everybody... not.
 

Towser83

G.O.A.T.
Exactly. It's hard for a lot of people (Nadal haters) here, but the surface distribution is obviously not fair (and good on Toni for saying it).

I'm not sure that is what he's saying. It's not like he is saying more grass, which is the only surface that there definitely is too little of, he's just talking about clay. If he's saying he would have just clay if up to him, in a way that means "well obviously if I wanted to do what was best for Rafa, then I would have all clay but that would just be a ridiculous thing, so of course I wouldn't really want that, just a fairer mix" then fair enough. But if he actually means that he really would make it all clay if given the option then he's a fool for expressing that view because it makes him look greedy and scared of challenge, which his nephew isn't.

I can argue that the distribution not being even isn't fair. I don't think players just decide to develop their game for clay or whatever surface, but certainly especially for a surface that isn't the dominant one. If a player could just decide to develop a game more suitable to a surface, surely everyone would pick hard court. Surely Nadal couldn't just have won 7 Wimbledons had he just decided to mould his game for it.

I don't think Nadal moulded his game intentionally for clay. For that matter, he's on record around 2002 saying he liked better grass and carpet than clay.

I think it's a mix. I mean everyone has different levels of natural talent, so some people must have a talent for playing a certain way which translates to one surface more than another one. I do think Nadal's talent fits clay the best. But I also feel Toni probably groomed him as a clay player even knowing being a good HC player was the best bet for success. I have never liked Toni and we've all heard he is super hard on Nadal. I kind of feel Toni at first didn't believe Nadal was as talented as he is and thought "you can just be a clay player" only later trying to get him to be an all courter. I think Nadal could have been moulded as an all court player from much earlier on (toni made him left handed so who knows what else he could have done) and though he may have not been totally dominant on clay, overall he might have made up for it or gone further. Nadal is better than just a clay court player so could have developed a game for HC early on I think.

Honestly, if hardcourts were universally sped up, there would be less grinding and therefore less injury because of the speed of play. I personally think that's the solution instead of more clay. Of course, that'd make Uncle Toni whine even more...

I agree there needs to be more fast HCs, instead of just slow. I wouldn't mind a bit more clay though as long as you first had a good place to put it (only place I can think of is making IW/Miami clay) and making more grass as well. If you made IW/Miami clay, then make one of them faster like Madrid, remove Madrid, move RG earlier and have 2 or 3 grass masters, maybe one after Wimbledon. Not really do-able though..

If you need any further proof that uncle Toni is the Spanish suresh, here is another statement from the news today

I mean what kind of grown up man talks like that? If indeed Rafa has gone through a tough injury, I would expect that someone with any maturity would say " I hope no one has to go through what my nephew did". Not the crap he spewed above, however laughingly.

http://www.tennisearth.com/news/ten...nd-Novak-Djokovic-will-get-injured-478826.htm

If he said that, he's an idiot really.

To think of how much Rafa would win (and how much Fed would not) if there were less hard courts is hard on ****s, I know. It's all you can see in this argument because of that.

That is true. Although if there had been an equal amount of HC, Clay AND grass, I think Federer would still be doing fine. Possibly better, because he had less people able to beat him on grass than HC for a few years. But a lot of times people talk about less HC, people just think of replacing it with clay. For me, I'm not sorry to say I'm pleased there is much more HC than clay because HC is a better substitute for the vastly underused grass. Grass should be fast so the only way to somewhat compensate for so little grass is fast HC, though these days the HC is super slow too. More clay means nearly everything slow. So no more clay unless there is more grass too ;)
 

SwankPeRFection

Hall of Fame
Oh. My. God.

THIS GUY WAS BEATING THE HELL OUT OF SEVERAL PEOPLE YOU MENTIONED AS A TEENAGER.

THIS GUY DEMOLISHED THE REST OF THE FIELD ON HIS WAY TO THE TITLE AT THE VERY FIRST FRENCH OPEN HE PLAYED AS A TEENAGER. HE DIDN'T LOSE ANOTHER UNTIL 4 YEAR LATERS AND THAT WAS JUST A FLUKE.

HE IS THE CLAY COURT KING AND HE WOULD MAKE EVERY OTHER CLAY COURT SPECIALIST IN HISTORY LOOK LIKE A GRASS COURT SPECIALIST

Unless it's BLUE. :p
 

Clarky21

Banned
I'm not sure that is what he's saying. It's not like he is saying more grass, which is the only surface that there definitely is too little of, he's just talking about clay. If he's saying he would have just clay if up to him, in a way that means "well obviously if I wanted to do what was best for Rafa, then I would have all clay but that would just be a ridiculous thing, so of course I wouldn't really want that, just a fairer mix" then fair enough. But if he actually means that he really would make it all clay if given the option then he's a fool for expressing that view because it makes him look greedy and scared of challenge, which his nephew isn't.



I think it's a mix. I mean everyone has different levels of natural talent, so some people must have a talent for playing a certain way which translates to one surface more than another one. I do think Nadal's talent fits clay the best. But I also feel Toni probably groomed him as a clay player even knowing being a good HC player was the best bet for success. I have never liked Toni and we've all heard he is super hard on Nadal. I kind of feel Toni at first didn't believe Nadal was as talented as he is and thought "you can just be a clay player" only later trying to get him to be an all courter. I think Nadal could have been moulded as an all court player from much earlier on (toni made him left handed so who knows what else he could have done) and though he may have not been totally dominant on clay, overall he might have made up for it or gone further. Nadal is better than just a clay court player so could have developed a game for HC early on I think.



I agree there needs to be more fast HCs, instead of just slow. I wouldn't mind a bit more clay though as long as you first had a good place to put it (only place I can think of is making IW/Miami clay) and making more grass as well. If you made IW/Miami clay, then make one of them faster like Madrid, remove Madrid, move RG earlier and have 2 or 3 grass masters, maybe one after Wimbledon. Not really do-able though..



If he said that, he's an idiot really.



That is true. Although if there had been an equal amount of HC, Clay AND grass, I think Federer would still be doing fine. Possibly better, because he had less people able to beat him on grass than HC for a few years. But a lot of times people talk about less HC, people just think of replacing it with clay. For me, I'm not sorry to say I'm pleased there is much more HC than clay because HC is a better substitute for the vastly underused grass. Grass should be fast so the only way to somewhat compensate for so little grass is fast HC, though these days the HC is super slow too. More clay means nearly everything slow. So no more clay unless there is more grass too ;)


Sorry,but no. Hardcourts play nothing like grass. Especially because hardcourts so slow these days the ball practically stops when it makes contact. It's like tennis in slow motion. Hardcourt is also harder on the body than grass is. They are absolutely nothing alike at all.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
speed up the existing hardcourts, maybe remove 1 HC masters for a grass court one and bring back carpet at the end of the season ...the no of claycourt tourneys are fine as they are ...

Players today have to play mainly on fast surfaces ? Toni, either you are plain clueless or a stupid liar !
 

Towser83

G.O.A.T.
Sorry,but no. Hardcourts play nothing like grass. Especially because hardcourts so slow these days the ball practically stops when it makes contact. It's like tennis in slow motion. Hardcourt is also harder on the body than grass is. They are absolutely nothing alike at all.

Hardcourts are closer to grass than clay though. You can make a HC that is fast and low bouncing.

If this isn't so, how comes so many players do well on Grass/HC and not too many on Grass/clay or Clay/HC? Most clay courters have traditionally sucked on HC and Grass, but grass players can usually play well on HC.

I agree than HCs are slow today and shouldn't be (unless you bring back more grass) but it's still faster and lower bouncing than clay and there are a couple of fast HCs out there.
 

Clarky21

Banned
Hardcourts are closer to grass than clay though. You can make a HC that is fast and low bouncing.

If this isn't so, how comes so many players do well on Grass/HC and not too many on Grass/clay or Clay/HC? Most clay courters have traditionally sucked on HC and Grass, but grass players can usually play well on HC.

I agree than HCs are slow today and shouldn't be (unless you bring back more grass) but it's still faster and lower bouncing than clay and there are a couple of fast HCs out there.



Then why does a hardcourt specialist like Cvac not do better on grass?


Maybe lower bouncing,but some of the hardcourts out there like the AO and Miami are just as slow as clay.
 

Towser83

G.O.A.T.
Then why does a hardcourt specialist like Cvac not do better on grass?


Maybe lower bouncing,but some of the hardcourts out there like the AO and Miami are just as slow as clay.

Djokovic is a rare one I guess. Though it's becoming less rare for players to do well on HC/clay mainly because grass tennis has died out a lot. But looking at players like Sampras, McEnroe, Connors, Edberg, Federer I feel most players suited to grass at least, find HC a better surface than Clay. If you don't like grass that much like Novak maybe it's different.

I agree some of the HC are as slow or almost as slow as clay (funny a lot of Nadal fans deny this and say HC is nothing like clay :lol: ) but they can make them fast. Cinci is fast, the US Open is usually fairly fast but not so the last couple of years maybe. Overall are you saying HC is closer to Clay than grass?

Actually the good thing about HC, is the bounce and speed can be altered a lot. I just wish they would actually do it so there would be a point of having so much HC
 
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merlinpinpin

Hall of Fame
Lol, Rafa was beating Costa and Moya on clay when he was 15 years old. And in straight sets at that.

You mean a teenager Nadal was 1-1 against a declining Moya on clay, both wins in straights? Your point?

And although Costa is a (much) lesser player than guys like Muster, Brugera, or even Ferrero, you making such a fuss about one measly win (Nadal is 1-0 vs him career-wise) would be like saying that Rafa's clay-GOAT status must be asterisked because he never beat on clay a guy like Rosol, whom history showed he had no chance at all to beat whatsoever. It *does* look silly when I put it this way, doesn't it? :roll:
 

merlinpinpin

Hall of Fame
Oh. My. God.

THIS GUY WAS BEATING THE HELL OUT OF SEVERAL PEOPLE YOU MENTIONED AS A TEENAGER.

THIS GUY DEMOLISHED THE REST OF THE FIELD ON HIS WAY TO THE TITLE AT THE VERY FIRST FRENCH OPEN HE PLAYED AS A TEENAGER. HE DIDN'T LOSE ANOTHER UNTIL 4 YEAR LATERS AND THAT WAS JUST A FLUKE.

HE IS THE CLAY COURT KING AND HE WOULD MAKE EVERY OTHER CLAY COURT SPECIALIST IN HISTORY LOOK LIKE A GRASS COURT SPECIALIST

Ouch! This must have hurt big time, no?

Don't worry, you'll probably thank me for it when you grow up some. :)

THIS GUY DEMOLISHED THE REST OF THE FIELD ON HIS WAY TO THE TITLE AT THE VERY FIRST FRENCH OPEN HE PLAYED AS A TEENAGER.

You mean when, as a teenager, he outlasted and tired out in the final a fully-fit man who was later found out to be doping? Are you really sure you want to go there? I sense more caps lock coming...
 

Gizo

Hall of Fame
i was on about the tour in general not just the world tour finals..

anyway it dosnt matter what you think is good/bad to play on..the pro's lobbied to have carpet removed from the tour and it was...thats that.

maybe it'll come back..i doubt it, clay/grass/hardcourt are enough surfaces.

I was on about the tour in general which is why I mentioned the Paris the Masters and the other indoor events.

Before you were saying that the players lobbied to get rid of carpet because they felt the surface was unsafe, but that was completely untrue. They lobbied to get rid of carpet, because many of the top modern day players wanted all the major European indoor events in the fall to be on a similar surface, and didn't want to have to adapt between indoor hard and indoor carpet.

Bercy being held on a completely difference surface to Madrid and the YEC didn't sit well with them, so the surfaces adapted to suit the players, rather than the players adapting to handle the different surfaces. Tournaments like Basel and Moscow had no choice but to switch to hard courts as well, as there was no point of them keeping carpet when the 3 biggest events of the fall were all on the hard courts.

And mostly slow hard courts and clay on the tour, with a tiny dose of grass is definitely not enough surfaces, considering that we used to have fast hard courts, slow hard courts, clay, grass and carpet.
 

Gizo

Hall of Fame
Far and away the biggest factor in the chance of courts was because rebound ace is the worst surface ever invented in terms of maintenance issues. They had to re-lay the courts pretty much annually because of the insane issues they had. My club (in Melb at the time) had those courts and they were most expensive mistake they ever made. Anything which was dropped on the court, or someone wearing hard-soled dress shoes or someone throwing a racquet etc would damage the surface. Air and moisture would get in and it was basically unrepairable. You couldn't fix a small patch of the court like you can grass/clay with and level of playing consistency so only Flinders Park as it was known then could afford to re-lay the courts each year. All the clubs which got them badly regretted ever getting them put down.

They heated up like crazy under the Aussie sun - I grant you that - but as for a notable increase in injuries being directly related to the surface, I call rubbish. I played on rebound ace courts for years without issue - they were less injury-causing than harder hard courts imo. I think the real reason the Aussie Open suffered from player complaints was the compounded issues of it often being extremely hot, the harsh sun conditions (amongst the lowest ozone level in the world in Australia - which wreaks havok for even tanned people) and the fact that it was one of the first tournaments of the year - many players were not fully match-fit yet and more injury prone. In fact non-acute injuries in the later rounds at the Aussie Open are still almost an annual happening. From memory moreso than at any of the other majors.

There were other factors at work I agree, but still I really don't think the number of injuries suffered on the rebound ace during the Australian summer, and ankle injuries in particular, was a coincidence. Players like Roddick, Moya, Serena, Clijsters, Henin, Sabatini etc suffered injuries on the surface and complained about it at some point. Serena won the Australian Open 3 times on Rebound Ace, but was delighted to see the back of it, talking about how she still felt pain in her feet for a while after the tournament was over. Akiko Morigami suffered a particularly nasty injury on the surface in 2006.

I remember the medical expert Andreas Bisaz saying that it was dangerous and should be scrapped. If a surface cannot handle intense heat and becomes dangerous to play under it, it has no place on the tour or at big tennis events.

For sure... but match length and being injury prone are bigger factors in injury incidences than the surface.

Of course but a long match on hard courts will always be worse on the body than a long match on clay courts. Even players like Davenport who were more comfortable on hard courts than the natural surfaces said that there was too much hard court tennis, and that it wasn't a coincidence that injuries were becoming more frequent and careers shorter as hard court events became more prevalent.

So the simpler, cheaper and more practical solution would be to speed up the hard court tournaments that are already out there, not replace them with tournaments which would ensure even more running about - even if clay is softer overall.

Speeding the hard courts would have the additional bonus over the "more clay courts" suggestion of making the tennis which was played and the options for having success more varied - and entertaining.

Well I personally don't think that there should be any more red clay events on the calendar. The amount we have now is perfectly fine. However I wouldn't mind if some of the American hard court events switched to har-tru (many har-tru courts are faster than the hard courts used on tour nowadays as well as being softer). Also even though this will never happen either I do think that most of the indoor events should switch (or switch back) to carpet to increase variety on the tour, and ease the hard court domination slightly.

And I agree that many of the existing hard court tournaments, especially the US Open, need to speed up their surfaces quite significantly. Slow hard courts are the worst possible surface on the tour for players' bodies, so for the sake of safety and also surface variety, a better balance between fast hard courts and slow ones is badly needed.

The tour is mostly slow hard courts and clay nowadays which is wrong, and quite boring as well.
 

SQA333

Hall of Fame
Simple. Let's increase the number of super-fast hard court events. The rallies will inevitably be shorter, and so will the matches. Players won't have to toil as hard as they are now.

Oh wait.... that would make Nadal even more vulnerable to losses than he is now, which would bring up another complaint from Toni.
 

namelessone

Legend
You mean a teenager Nadal was 1-1 against a declining Moya on clay, both wins in straights? Your point?

You really don't see his point?

A 15-16 year old(Nadal in this case) beating RG finalists or winners is an event no matter how you spin it(oh his opponent was old, they didn't have a good day, etc.). Nadal was beating RG champs at a very young age, took on and beat a more experienced claycourter than him in Coria twice in 2005(Nadal had just three 250 events to his name by this date whereas Coria was a RG finalist and clay MS winner) and won RG in his first run. Who knows what he would've done in RG2004 if he wasn't injured for that event.

No matter how some of you try to spin this, Nadal would've been GOAT or co-GOAT of clay in basically any era. The guy has mastery of this surface.

Heck, his only loss in RG was when he was physically hampered and he missed another RG early on due to injury. The only guys from the much lauded 90's that could maybe dent Nadal would be Muster(lefty,great stamina and grit) and Kuerten(good BH for high balls) but even then I would give Nadal victory 7-8 out of 10 times.
 

merlinpinpin

Hall of Fame
You really don't see his point?

Of course I do. (And of course Moya was expected to win both matches, I think he was still #7 or 8 when he got that loss.) ;)

No matter how some of you try to spin this, Nadal would've been GOAT or co-GOAT of clay in basically any era. The guy has mastery of this surface.

You're getting riled up for nothing, I'm not disputing this point. However, I'm disputing the fact that he would have done even better in the 90's. That is just silly.

Heck, his only loss in RG was when he was physically hampered and he missed another RG early on due to injury. The only guys from the much lauded 90's that could maybe dent Nadal would be Muster(lefty,great stamina and grit) and Kuerten(good BH for high balls) but even then I would give Nadal victory 7-8 out of 10 times.

Even counting these two only (and I'll add Courier and Brugera to the list, and even Norman had a very good year on clay before he got injured), you're basically saying the same thing I am with your 70/80% win ratio--against these guys, Nadal would very probably not have won 7 RG's, the way he did vs a field in which Federer was the main threat on clay because there wasn't a single top claycourter left except from Nadal (the only one left, Coria, lost it just as Nadal came into his own).
 

Clarky21

Banned
You mean a teenager Nadal was 1-1 against a declining Moya on clay, both wins in straights? Your point?

And although Costa is a (much) lesser player than guys like Muster, Brugera, or even Ferrero, you making such a fuss about one measly win (Nadal is 1-0 vs him career-wise) would be like saying that Rafa's clay-GOAT status must be asterisked because he never beat on clay a guy like Rosol, whom history showed he had no chance at all to beat whatsoever. It *does* look silly when I put it this way, doesn't it? :roll:



How about Fed's win at Wimby against an old and declining Sampras? Fed had no rival at all on grass for years,and his only competition there turned out to be a one dimensional dirtballer that you like to crap on. What does that say for all of Fed's Wimbledon titles?
 

Crisstti

Legend
Simple. Let's increase the number of super-fast hard court events. The rallies will inevitably be shorter, and so will the matches. Players won't have to toil as hard as they are now.

Oh wait.... that would make Nadal even more vulnerable to losses than he is now, which would bring up another complaint from Toni.

The surface distribution would still be much unbalanced, in favour of hard courts. But lets just ignore that, right?.

Of course I do. (And of course Moya was expected to win both matches, I think he was still #7 or 8 when he got that loss.) ;)

You're getting riled up for nothing, I'm not disputing this point. However, I'm disputing the fact that he would have done even better in the 90's. That is just silly.

Even counting these two only (and I'll add Courier and Brugera to the list, and even Norman had a very good year on clay before he got injured), you're basically saying the same thing I am with your 70/80% win ratio--against these guys, Nadal would very probably not have won 7 RG's, the way he did vs a field in which Federer was the main threat on clay because there wasn't a single top claycourter left except from Nadal (the only one left, Coria, lost it just as Nadal came into his own).

He probably would have. Those guys would probably not have won any RG titles if Nadal had been playing then. Just like if he hadn't been around now Fed would have a few, Novak at least one and maybe someone else'd have one as well.

And as Namelessone pointed out, Nadal was getting the best of him, though he was much less experienced.
 

Crisstti

Legend
I'm not sure that is what he's saying. It's not like he is saying more grass, which is the only surface that there definitely is too little of, he's just talking about clay. If he's saying he would have just clay if up to him, in a way that means "well obviously if I wanted to do what was best for Rafa, then I would have all clay but that would just be a ridiculous thing, so of course I wouldn't really want that, just a fairer mix" then fair enough. But if he actually means that he really would make it all clay if given the option then he's a fool for expressing that view because it makes him look greedy and scared of challenge, which his nephew isn't.

Well, I'm guessing that’s what he meant… wouldn't make much sense otherwise.

I think it's a mix. I mean everyone has different levels of natural talent, so some people must have a talent for playing a certain way which translates to one surface more than another one. I do think Nadal's talent fits clay the best. But I also feel Toni probably groomed him as a clay player even knowing being a good HC player was the best bet for success. I have never liked Toni and we've all heard he is super hard on Nadal. I kind of feel Toni at first didn't believe Nadal was as talented as he is and thought "you can just be a clay player" only later trying to get him to be an all courter. I think Nadal could have been moulded as an all court player from much earlier on (toni made him left handed so who knows what else he could have done) and though he may have not been totally dominant on clay, overall he might have made up for it or gone further. Nadal is better than just a clay court player so could have developed a game for HC early on I think.

That is a good point, and it could be a mix. Being that Rafa was by 2002 saying he preferred to play on grass and carpet I doubt though that Toni groomed him much to be a clay courter. Plus, Rafa’s love of Wimbledon comes in big part from Toni.

I agree there needs to be more fast HCs, instead of just slow. I wouldn't mind a bit more clay though as long as you first had a good place to put it (only place I can think of is making IW/Miami clay) and making more grass as well. If you made IW/Miami clay, then make one of them faster like Madrid, remove Madrid, move RG earlier and have 2 or 3 grass masters, maybe one after Wimbledon. Not really do-able though.


That sounds pretty good. Why wouldn’t it be doable?.

I remember someone recently said how it was just about how hard courts are cheaper and you can have other events on the surface. And while that seems true, I don’t quite understand how this has happened in a sport allegedly so fond of tradition as tennis. Football is still played almost only on grass, even with the problems that happen when there are concerts held in the stadiums and with how much more expensive it must be. And there is apparently good quality artificial grass available.

That is true. Although if there had been an equal amount of HC, Clay AND grass, I think Federer would still be doing fine. Possibly better, because he had less people able to beat him on grass than HC for a few years. But a lot of times people talk about less HC, people just think of replacing it with clay. For me, I'm not sorry to say I'm pleased there is much more HC than clay because HC is a better substitute for the vastly underused grass. Grass should be fast so the only way to somewhat compensate for so little grass is fast HC, though these days the HC is super slow too. More clay means nearly everything slow. So no more clay unless there is more grass too ;)

Of course he’d still be doing fine :). There should be more clay and grass, yep.
 

Towser83

G.O.A.T.
It's hard to make big changes, a huge overhaul of the calendar would require multiple events all agree to changes which is unlikely, sadly.

To be honest after thinking about it, I'm not sure it's a case of needing more clay- it just seems that way because so much hc, if you took some away to replace with grass, it would be fairly even. For instance clay has a 3rd of the masters (3 out of 9) but hc has the other 6. If grass had 3, then clay doesn't need anymore since it has a perfect 1 third share.

My best idea of how a more fair calendar could work is like this(though I haven't worked out the dates)

AO as it is, followed by a couple of HC 500s like Rotterdan and Dubai.

Then straight to IW on clay (or another venue on clay) which would take place either the same place in the calendar or maybe a week later. IW clay would be a faster clay event than the other masters, maybe even on har-tru if enough clay courters welcome the idea.

Then next we have some clay 500s, before MC and Rome with maybe a week between each.

RG would be next but moved to a week or two earlier.

After RG since Wimbledon is moving to a week or twolater, hopefully you could have a week off before 2 Grass masters and a week off afterwards, then Wimbledon.

After Wimbledon another grass masters.

After this a couple of weeks off before Miami (sped up to a medium/fast pace to ease into cinci better) and Cinci, then the US Open.

After the US Open some time off then a few 500s followed by Paris indoors and the WTF. Between the USO and Paris there could be a few weeks which players could elect not to play if they needed a break. If not there could be a clay and hc swing running at the same time.This would mean no asian swing though, unless you had one with some 500s after Australia.

Though if possible you could get 4 clay masters with one on har-tru and 4 HC masters with 1 indoors.
 

NamRanger

G.O.A.T.
You really don't see his point?

A 15-16 year old(Nadal in this case) beating RG finalists or winners is an event no matter how you spin it(oh his opponent was old, they didn't have a good day, etc.). Nadal was beating RG champs at a very young age, took on and beat a more experienced claycourter than him in Coria twice in 2005(Nadal had just three 250 events to his name by this date whereas Coria was a RG finalist and clay MS winner) and won RG in his first run. Who knows what he would've done in RG2004 if he wasn't injured for that event.

No matter how some of you try to spin this, Nadal would've been GOAT or co-GOAT of clay in basically any era. The guy has mastery of this surface.

Heck, his only loss in RG was when he was physically hampered and he missed another RG early on due to injury. The only guys from the much lauded 90's that could maybe dent Nadal would be Muster(lefty,great stamina and grit) and Kuerten(good BH for high balls) but even then I would give Nadal victory 7-8 out of 10 times.



No. Nadal was clearly outplayed by Soderling. I'm not going to argue this at length with you, but it was pretty painfully obvious that Soderling simply was on a completely different level and Nadal had 0 answers to it. Even if there was an injury, there was nothing that could have even demonstrated that Nadal was even remotely injured, and all this whole talk about him being injured at RG only surfaced AFTER he skipped Wimbledon.
 

PhrygianDominant

Hall of Fame
No. Nadal was clearly outplayed by Soderling. I'm not going to argue this at length with you, but it was pretty painfully obvious that Soderling simply was on a completely different level and Nadal had 0 answers to it. Even if there was an injury, there was nothing that could have even demonstrated that Nadal was even remotely injured, and all this whole talk about him being injured at RG only surfaced AFTER he skipped Wimbledon.

quoted for truth
 

merlinpinpin

Hall of Fame
No. Nadal was clearly outplayed by Soderling. I'm not going to argue this at length with you, but it was pretty painfully obvious that Soderling simply was on a completely different level and Nadal had 0 answers to it. Even if there was an injury, there was nothing that could have even demonstrated that Nadal was even remotely injured, and all this whole talk about him being injured at RG only surfaced AFTER he skipped Wimbledon.

Of course, but you'll never get them to agree to that. As far as they're concerned, Nadal's career statistics are 583 wins/122 losses due to injury. They can't conceive he can lose a match unless he's at death door and playing on half a knee only.

The Söderling and Rosol matches were very similar in that respect: both times, he was blown off the court without showing any sign of injury and while fighting to the very end, and both times, a couple of weeks later, he mysteriously "acquired" a retroactive knee injury explaining the loss.

Of course, there is at least one other posible explanation (which also takes the timing and circumstances of these losses into account), but I'm not sure the VB will want to go there, so I guess the "always injured warrior fighting through endless waves of blinding pain to win his matches" is a safer place for them.
 

merlinpinpin

Hall of Fame
He probably would have. Those guys would probably not have won any RG titles if Nadal had been playing then. Just like if he hadn't been around now Fed would have a few, Novak at least one and maybe someone else'd have one as well.

And as Namelessone pointed out, Nadal was getting the best of him, though he was much less experienced.

Drat, just lost a long, detailed answer (don't ever touch Ctrl-W when writing a long post and have your kids stay away from these, people :(). I'll try to find the time to rewrite it later.
 

vive le beau jeu !

Talk Tennis Guru
a religious matter

Of course, but you'll never get them to agree to that. As far as they're concerned, Nadal's career statistics are 583 wins/122 losses due to injury. They can't conceive he can lose a match unless he's at death door and playing on half a knee only.
in the mighty rusty peak injured golden bull to believe you have !

GoldenCalfWorshipers.gif
 

Crisstti

Legend
Drat, just lost a long, detailed answer (don't ever touch Ctrl-W when writing a long post and have your kids stay away from these, people :(). I'll try to find the time to rewrite it later.

My cat erased a long post I was writing the other day when he walked on the keyboard (control z just wouldn't fix it). Maybe that's what he pressed.
 

Crisstti

Legend
Your post makes a lot of sense Towser :). I like it.

No. Nadal was clearly outplayed by Soderling. I'm not going to argue this at length with you, but it was pretty painfully obvious that Soderling simply was on a completely different level and Nadal had 0 answers to it. Even if there was an injury, there was nothing that could have even demonstrated that Nadal was even remotely injured, and all this whole talk about him being injured at RG only surfaced AFTER he skipped Wimbledon.

Sure, he was outplayed because he was injured. I can see though why some Fed fans hate the idea.
 
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