Apparently, Sampras still thinks he's the GOAT!!!

THUNDERVOLLEY · Dec 30, 2012

Prisoner of Birth said:
What a dumb logic. "They are supporting their stance so their stance must be wrong!"

Obviously reasoning escaped you, since the OP's premise was based on unsubstantiated BS, yet he had an agenda to press. Without concrete evidence, this is yet another Fed-fanboy whine-a-thon about how "great" their false "god" is...the guy who could not win the Grand Slam.

fed_rulz · Dec 30, 2012

90's Clay said:
There was some uncertainty at times in the Fed-Nadal rivalry in though the result was never usually in doubt.. Fed had his chances vs. Nadal over the years, but he mentally folded like laundry.

Of course, Roddick had his chances as well but you knew Fed was always going to win more times then not since he was so much better the Roddick

if the result was never in doubt, where does the element of uncertainty come from?

fed_rulz · Dec 30, 2012

90's Clay said:
Its good.. But this has also been a very WEAK clay era (almost no depth whatsoever) as well. There was two times the depth on clay during Pete's time.. Thats a fact

Hell the last great clay court player (outside of nadal) I saw was Kuerten.. And that almost 10 years ago

I thought you said earlier in the thread that one can't compare across eras? whatever happened to it?

THUNDERVOLLEY · Dec 30, 2012

Prisoner of Birth said:
At Roland Garros, from ages 25-31

Federer
Best Result - Champion
34 wins, 5 losses
1 Championship
4 finals
5 semifinals
6 quarterfinals

Sampras
Best Result - 3rd round
5 wins, 6 losses
0 Championships
0 finals
0 semifinals
0 quarterfinals

PS - :lol:

...a fluke title only won because he did not have to face Nadal in the final that year. Speaks volumes about how Federer needed luck to give him his one and only shot at the FO title.

90's Clay · Dec 30, 2012

fed_rulz said:
if the result was never in doubt, where does the element of uncertainty come from?

Fed's lack of mental toughness caused that.. In contrast, with the Fed-Roddick "rivalry", Roddick just didn't have enough talent to compete with Federer

timnz · Dec 30, 2012

Uncertainty

90's Clay said:
Was Fed-Roddick a rivalry? Rivalries should bring an element of uncertainty

When they meet off clay no one is certain who will win. At the moment Federer is leading the non-clay head to head but there isn't much in it.

90's Clay · Dec 30, 2012

fed_rulz said:
I thought you said earlier in the thread that one can't compare across eras? whatever happened to it?

I don't think you can choose any type of "hands down" GOAT. But certain eras produce more talent then others on certain surfaces.

fed_rulz · Dec 30, 2012

THUNDERVOLLEY said:
Obviously reasoning escaped you, since the OP's premise was based on unsubstantiated BS, yet he had an agenda to press. Without concrete evidence, this is yet another Fed-fanboy whine-a-thon about how "great" their false "god" is...the guy who could not win the Grand Slam.

talk about agenda.... why do you feel the need to remind everyone that Federer hasn't won the Grand Slam in every thread about Federer? Insecure much? If the Grand Slam is the holy grail of tennis achievements, surely you don't have to bring it up pretty much in every GOAT debate (using your own logic...)

btw, show me where in the OP I sang praises of how "great" my false "god" is? We're discussing whether Sampras is right in his supposed claims or not, and where he stands in relation to Federer. I don't see anyone proclaiming Federer as GOAT here; you felt slighted that your true "god" Laver was shortchanged because... Sampras felt he was GOAT, and others here felt he wasn't???

mistik · Dec 30, 2012

Winning most majors doesnt make you goat.Sampras for sure is more explosive player than Fed on faster surfaces.Fed dominated weakest generation the men tennis ever seen with the likes of Hewitt, Roddick.When a strong rival came,he burst on the tears.That says it all.

Povl Carstensen · Dec 30, 2012

90's Clay said:
There was two times the depth on clay during Pete's time.. Thats a fact

Even if that is true, (and a fact, he), Petes RG results are much more than two times worse than Federers.

mistik · Dec 30, 2012

Povl Carstensen said:
Even if that is true, (and a fact, he), Petes RG results are much more than two times worse than Federers.

Clay was slower in 90s as well.

Prisoner of Birth · Dec 30, 2012

THUNDERVOLLEY said:
...a fluke title only won because he did not have to face Nadal in the final that year. Speaks volumes about how Federer needed luck to give him his one and only shot at the FO title.

You win a Grand Slam by being the best player in the draw.

If Federer wasn't the best player at the 2009 Roland Garros, who is? Answer this question or shut up.

fed_rulz · Dec 30, 2012

90's Clay said:
I don't think you can choose any type of "hands down" GOAT. But certain eras produce more talent then others on certain surfaces.

if two players from different eras cannot be compared (that is according to you), you see it convenient to compare two groups of players across eras and slam one as being weak? GameSampras, give it up. your hypocrisy has been exposed.

pringles · Dec 30, 2012

THUNDERVOLLEY said:
...a fluke title only won because he did not have to face Nadal in the final that year. Speaks volumes about how Federer needed luck to give him his one and only shot at the FO title.

You can take away Federer's 2009 FO away from him but a gazillion finals is still better than a handful of humiliating 1st round losses that Sampras suffered to complete journeymen at the FO.

Povl Carstensen · Dec 30, 2012

mistik said:
Fed dominated weakest generation the men tennis ever seen with the likes of Hewitt, Roddick.When a strong rival came,he burst on the tears.That says it all.

If Federer had not dominated it, it would be considered strong, it goes both ways.

Prisoner of Birth · Dec 30, 2012

fed_rulz said:
if the result was never in doubt, where does the element of uncertainty come from?

I thought you said earlier in the thread that one can't compare across eras? whatever happened to it?

:lol: OWNAGE!

timnz · Dec 30, 2012

Objective comparison between Sampras and Nadal using Masters 1000 events and greater

If we just look at the events where you can score 1000 points or greater...if we compare the two using the current ATP points system. (Note that i have put 1300 points for Sampras WTF wins because every one of them he won whilst losing 1 round robin match hence 1500 points - 200 points = 1300 points).

Sampras = (14 Slams x 2000) + (5 WTF x 1300) + (4 Slam Finals x 1200) + (11 Masters 1000 x 1000) = 50300

Nadal = (11 Slams x 2000) + (0 WTF x 1400) + (5 Slam Finals x 1200) + (21 Masters 1000's x 1000) = 49000

So very close - Sampras just edging out Nadal by just 1300 points. Hence, highly likely that Nadal will edge Sampras out this year.

Note: You may argue with the points I have given the various events, but they are the ATP points system not my own.

Prisoner of Birth · Dec 30, 2012

mistik said:
Winning most majors doesnt make you goat.Sampras for sure is more explosive player than Fed on faster surfaces.Fed dominated weakest generation the men tennis ever seen with the likes of Hewitt, Roddick.When a strong rival came,he burst on the tears.That says it all.

Actually, Federer won 13 Grand Slam titles since the "strong rival" came.

Povl Carstensen · Dec 30, 2012

mistik said:
Clay was slower in 90s as well.

Are you saying Sampras is a stronger clay player than Federer?

mistik · Dec 30, 2012

Povl Carstensen said:
If Federer had not dominated it, it would be considered strong, it goes both ways.

Thats nothing to do with Fed.Hewitt,Roddick type of players can only be a rival in a transition era.They have no business of being N01 under normal circumstances.

90's Clay · Dec 30, 2012

Povl Carstensen said:
Even if that is true, (and a fact, he), Petes RG results are much more than two times worse than Federers.

Fed's walk to the finals a lot of those years were WAYY easier then Petes.

Round Opponent Ranking Score
R128 Luis Horna (PER) 88 L 6-7(6), 2-6, 6-7(3)

Round Opponent Ranking Score
R128 Kristof Vliegen (BEL) 110 W 6-1, 6-2, 6-1 Stats
R64 Nicolas Kiefer (GER) 34 W 6-3, 6-4, 7-6(6)

Round Opponent Ranking Score
R128 Dudi Sela (ISR) 264 W 6-1, 6-4, 6-0 Stats
R64 Nicolas Almagro (ESP) 76 W 6-3, 7-6(0), 6-2 Stats
R32 Fernando Gonzalez (CHI) 26 W 7-6(9), 7-5, 6-2 Stats
R16 Carlos Moya (ESP) 15 W 6-1, 6-4, 6-3 Stats
Q Victor Hanescu (ROU) 90 W 6-2, 7-6(3), 6-3

R128 Diego Hartfield (ARG) 157 W 7-5, 7-6(2), 6-2 Stats
R64 Alejandro Falla (COL) 139 W 6-1, 6-4, 6-3 Stats
R32 Nicolas Massu (CHI) 35 W 6-1, 6-2, 6-7(4), 7-5 Stats
R16 Tomas Berdych (CZE) 20 W 6-3, 6-2, 6-3 Stats
Q Mario Ancic (CRO) 12 W 6-4, 6-3, 6-4 Stats
S David Nalbandian (ARG) 3 W 3-6, 6-4, 5-2 RET

Round Opponent Ranking Score
R128 Michael Russell (USA) 68 W 6-4, 6-2, 6-4 Stats
R64 Thierry Ascione (FRA) 168 W 6-1, 6-2, 7-6(8) Stats
R32 Potito Starace (ITA) 57 W 6-2, 6-3, 6-0 Stats
R16 Mikhail Youzhny (RUS) 15 W 7-6(3), 6-4, 6-4 Stats
Q Tommy Robredo (ESP) 9 W 7-5, 1-6, 6-1, 6-2 Stats
S Nikolay Davydenko (RUS) 4 W 7-5, 7-6(5), 7-6(7)

R128 Sam Querrey (USA) 40 W 6-4, 6-4, 6-3 Stats
R64 Albert Montanes (ESP) 60 W 6-7(5), 6-1, 6-0, 6-4 Stats
R32 Mario Ancic (CRO) 46 W 6-3, 6-4, 6-2 Stats
R16 Julien Benneteau (FRA) 55 W 6-4, 7-5, 7-5 Stats
Q Fernando Gonzalez (CHI) 25 W 2-6, 6-2, 6-3, 6-4 Stats
S Gael Monfils (FRA) 59 W 6-2, 5-7, 6-3, 7-5

If those were Pete's routes to the final of the French Open over a 4-5 year period.. Id like his chances at a French Open title too.

forzamilan90 · Dec 30, 2012

Prisoner of Birth said:
You win a Grand Slam by being the best player in the draw.

If Federer wasn't the best player at the 2009 Roland Garros, who is? Answer this question or shut up.

you're way too nice to that troll THUNDERVOLLEY, shut your f***** blasphemous mouth would have been more appropriate.

pringles · Dec 30, 2012

mistik said:
Clay was slower in 90s as well.

Federer has reached 3 Monte Carlo finals in a row on the slowest possible clay. Why couldn't Sampras do it?

Clay depth again?

I guess so if even guys ranked below 100th could take Sampras out on clay. It was that tough.

Prisoner of Birth · Dec 30, 2012

timnz said:
If we just look at the events where you can score 1000 points or greater...if we compare the two using the current ATP points system. (Note that i have put 1300 points for Sampras WTF wins because every one of them he won whilst losing 1 round robin match hence 1500 points - 200 points = 1300 points).

Sampras = (14 Slams x 2000) + (5 WTF x 1300) + (4 Slam Finals x 1200) + (11 Masters 1000 x 1000) = 50300

Nadal = (11 Slams x 2000) + (0 WTF x 1400) + (5 Slam Finals x 1200) + (21 Masters 1000's x 1) = 49000

So very close - Sampras just edging out Nadal by just 1300 points. Hence, highly likely that Nadal will edge Sampras out this year.

Note: You may argue with the points I have given the various events, but they are the ATP points system not my own.

Nadal is well on his way to surpassing Sampras. If he gets to 14 Grand Slams, like I think he will, I'd say he's surpassed him. If he gets to 15, it becomes almost indisputable.

fed_rulz · Dec 30, 2012

THUNDERVOLLEY said:
...a fluke title only won because he did not have to face Nadal in the final that year. Speaks volumes about how Federer needed luck to give him his one and only shot at the FO title.

yet, Sampras could not make use of his luck the 13 years he competed at the FO without Nadal. your point?

mistik · Dec 30, 2012

Povl Carstensen said:
Are you saying Sampras is a stronger clay player than Federer?

We didnt see Sampras playing in todays clay which is clearly faster.İn 90s player like Soderling couldnt even dream to reach RG final.

Prisoner of Birth · Dec 30, 2012

90's Clay said:
Fed's walk to the finals a lot of those years were WAYY easier then Petes.

Round Opponent Ranking Score
R128 Luis Horna (PER) 88 L 6-7(6), 2-6, 6-7(3)

Round Opponent Ranking Score
R128 Kristof Vliegen (BEL) 110 W 6-1, 6-2, 6-1 Stats
R64 Nicolas Kiefer (GER) 34 W 6-3, 6-4, 7-6(6)

Round Opponent Ranking Score
R128 Dudi Sela (ISR) 264 W 6-1, 6-4, 6-0 Stats
R64 Nicolas Almagro (ESP) 76 W 6-3, 7-6(0), 6-2 Stats
R32 Fernando Gonzalez (CHI) 26 W 7-6(9), 7-5, 6-2 Stats
R16 Carlos Moya (ESP) 15 W 6-1, 6-4, 6-3 Stats
Q Victor Hanescu (ROU) 90 W 6-2, 7-6(3), 6-3

R128 Diego Hartfield (ARG) 157 W 7-5, 7-6(2), 6-2 Stats
R64 Alejandro Falla (COL) 139 W 6-1, 6-4, 6-3 Stats
R32 Nicolas Massu (CHI) 35 W 6-1, 6-2, 6-7(4), 7-5 Stats
R16 Tomas Berdych (CZE) 20 W 6-3, 6-2, 6-3 Stats
Q Mario Ancic (CRO) 12 W 6-4, 6-3, 6-4 Stats
S David Nalbandian (ARG) 3 W 3-6, 6-4, 5-2 RET

Round Opponent Ranking Score
R128 Michael Russell (USA) 68 W 6-4, 6-2, 6-4 Stats
R64 Thierry Ascione (FRA) 168 W 6-1, 6-2, 7-6(8) Stats
R32 Potito Starace (ITA) 57 W 6-2, 6-3, 6-0 Stats
R16 Mikhail Youzhny (RUS) 15 W 7-6(3), 6-4, 6-4 Stats
Q Tommy Robredo (ESP) 9 W 7-5, 1-6, 6-1, 6-2 Stats
S Nikolay Davydenko (RUS) 4 W 7-5, 7-6(5), 7-6(7)

R128 Sam Querrey (USA) 40 W 6-4, 6-4, 6-3 Stats
R64 Albert Montanes (ESP) 60 W 6-7(5), 6-1, 6-0, 6-4 Stats
R32 Mario Ancic (CRO) 46 W 6-3, 6-4, 6-2 Stats
R16 Julien Benneteau (FRA) 55 W 6-4, 7-5, 7-5 Stats
Q Fernando Gonzalez (CHI) 25 W 2-6, 6-2, 6-3, 6-4 Stats
S Gael Monfils (FRA) 59 W 6-2, 5-7, 6-3, 7-5

If those were Pete's routes to the final of the French Open over a 4-5 year period.. Id like his chances at a French Open title too.

Sampras had 5 wins and 6 losses since 1996 at RG. Don't make me laugh.

Povl Carstensen · Dec 30, 2012

90's Clay said:
Fed's walk to the finals a lot of those years were WAYY easier then Petes.

Round Opponent Ranking Score
R128 Luis Horna (PER) 88 L 6-7(6), 2-6, 6-7(3)

Round Opponent Ranking Score
R128 Kristof Vliegen (BEL) 110 W 6-1, 6-2, 6-1 Stats
R64 Nicolas Kiefer (GER) 34 W 6-3, 6-4, 7-6(6)

Round Opponent Ranking Score
R128 Dudi Sela (ISR) 264 W 6-1, 6-4, 6-0 Stats
R64 Nicolas Almagro (ESP) 76 W 6-3, 7-6(0), 6-2 Stats
R32 Fernando Gonzalez (CHI) 26 W 7-6(9), 7-5, 6-2 Stats
R16 Carlos Moya (ESP) 15 W 6-1, 6-4, 6-3 Stats
Q Victor Hanescu (ROU) 90 W 6-2, 7-6(3), 6-3

R128 Diego Hartfield (ARG) 157 W 7-5, 7-6(2), 6-2 Stats
R64 Alejandro Falla (COL) 139 W 6-1, 6-4, 6-3 Stats
R32 Nicolas Massu (CHI) 35 W 6-1, 6-2, 6-7(4), 7-5 Stats
R16 Tomas Berdych (CZE) 20 W 6-3, 6-2, 6-3 Stats
Q Mario Ancic (CRO) 12 W 6-4, 6-3, 6-4 Stats
S David Nalbandian (ARG) 3 W 3-6, 6-4, 5-2 RET

Round Opponent Ranking Score
R128 Michael Russell (USA) 68 W 6-4, 6-2, 6-4 Stats
R64 Thierry Ascione (FRA) 168 W 6-1, 6-2, 7-6(8) Stats
R32 Potito Starace (ITA) 57 W 6-2, 6-3, 6-0 Stats
R16 Mikhail Youzhny (RUS) 15 W 7-6(3), 6-4, 6-4 Stats
Q Tommy Robredo (ESP) 9 W 7-5, 1-6, 6-1, 6-2 Stats
S Nikolay Davydenko (RUS) 4 W 7-5, 7-6(5), 7-6(7)

R128 Sam Querrey (USA) 40 W 6-4, 6-4, 6-3 Stats
R64 Albert Montanes (ESP) 60 W 6-7(5), 6-1, 6-0, 6-4 Stats
R32 Mario Ancic (CRO) 46 W 6-3, 6-4, 6-2 Stats
R16 Julien Benneteau (FRA) 55 W 6-4, 7-5, 7-5 Stats
Q Fernando Gonzalez (CHI) 25 W 2-6, 6-2, 6-3, 6-4 Stats
S Gael Monfils (FRA) 59 W 6-2, 5-7, 6-3, 7-5

If those were Pete's routes to the final of the French Open over a 4-5 year period.. Id like his chances at a French Open title too.

But Pete did not go anywhere.

Phoenix1983 · Dec 30, 2012

pringles said:
There is no single record of Sampras that makes people think that no-one will ever break it.

Six consecutive years ending as No 1 in the Open Era?

Also your argument is a bit misleading. Maybe Nadal's single-surface dominance will "never be broken", but that doesn't mean he gets to rank above Sampras overall, even if the latter has no "unbreakable" records. You cannot achieve the vast majority of your numbers on one surface and expect to be ranked above guys who dominated on multiple surfaces like Federer, Laver, Sampras and Borg.

fed_rulz · Dec 30, 2012

90's Clay said:
Fed's lack of mental toughness caused that.. In contrast, with the Fed-Roddick "rivalry", Roddick just didn't have enough talent to compete with Federer

so, Federer gets points because he's mentally weak, but with a wealth of talent, but Roddick gets dinged because does not have similar talent? despite the result not being in doubt? wow, you sure are generous

Povl Carstensen · Dec 30, 2012

mistik said:
We didnt see Sampras playing in todays clay which is clearly faster.İn 90s player like Soderling couldnt even dream to reach RG final.

I can understand why you did not answer my question.

mistik · Dec 30, 2012

pringles said:
Federer has reached 3 Monte Carlo finals in a row on the slowest possible clay. Why couldn't Sampras do it?

Clay depth again?

I guess so if even guys ranked below 100th could take Sampras out on clay. It was that tough.

Even Monte Carlo isnt what i used to be.

fed_rulz · Dec 30, 2012

mistik said:
We didnt see Sampras playing in todays clay which is clearly faster.İn 90s player like Soderling couldnt even dream to reach RG final.

so soderling would reach the finals of Wimbledon in the 90s on fast grass? apparently, the speed of the surface seems to matter....

pringles · Dec 30, 2012

90's Clay said:
Fed's walk to the finals a lot of those years were WAYY easier then Petes.

Round Opponent Ranking Score
R128 Luis Horna (PER) 88 L 6-7(6), 2-6, 6-7(3)

Round Opponent Ranking Score
R128 Kristof Vliegen (BEL) 110 W 6-1, 6-2, 6-1 Stats
R64 Nicolas Kiefer (GER) 34 W 6-3, 6-4, 7-6(6)

Round Opponent Ranking Score
R128 Dudi Sela (ISR) 264 W 6-1, 6-4, 6-0 Stats
R64 Nicolas Almagro (ESP) 76 W 6-3, 7-6(0), 6-2 Stats
R32 Fernando Gonzalez (CHI) 26 W 7-6(9), 7-5, 6-2 Stats
R16 Carlos Moya (ESP) 15 W 6-1, 6-4, 6-3 Stats
Q Victor Hanescu (ROU) 90 W 6-2, 7-6(3), 6-3

R128 Diego Hartfield (ARG) 157 W 7-5, 7-6(2), 6-2 Stats
R64 Alejandro Falla (COL) 139 W 6-1, 6-4, 6-3 Stats
R32 Nicolas Massu (CHI) 35 W 6-1, 6-2, 6-7(4), 7-5 Stats
R16 Tomas Berdych (CZE) 20 W 6-3, 6-2, 6-3 Stats
Q Mario Ancic (CRO) 12 W 6-4, 6-3, 6-4 Stats
S David Nalbandian (ARG) 3 W 3-6, 6-4, 5-2 RET

Round Opponent Ranking Score
R128 Michael Russell (USA) 68 W 6-4, 6-2, 6-4 Stats
R64 Thierry Ascione (FRA) 168 W 6-1, 6-2, 7-6(8) Stats
R32 Potito Starace (ITA) 57 W 6-2, 6-3, 6-0 Stats
R16 Mikhail Youzhny (RUS) 15 W 7-6(3), 6-4, 6-4 Stats
Q Tommy Robredo (ESP) 9 W 7-5, 1-6, 6-1, 6-2 Stats
S Nikolay Davydenko (RUS) 4 W 7-5, 7-6(5), 7-6(7)

R128 Sam Querrey (USA) 40 W 6-4, 6-4, 6-3 Stats
R64 Albert Montanes (ESP) 60 W 6-7(5), 6-1, 6-0, 6-4 Stats
R32 Mario Ancic (CRO) 46 W 6-3, 6-4, 6-2 Stats
R16 Julien Benneteau (FRA) 55 W 6-4, 7-5, 7-5 Stats
Q Fernando Gonzalez (CHI) 25 W 2-6, 6-2, 6-3, 6-4 Stats
S Gael Monfils (FRA) 59 W 6-2, 5-7, 6-3, 7-5

If those were Pete's routes to the final of the French Open over a 4-5 year period.. Id like his chances at a French Open title too.

In 2004 Sampras is not beating Kuerten. If he managed Kuerten (the last time Guga was GOATing) he would then face Nalbandian, Gaudio and Coria. Good luck.
In 2005 Sampras gets humiliated by Nadal in the SF (if he somehow manages to beat Moya in the QF or even Hanescu)
In 2006 Sampras loses to Nalbandian
In 2007 to Robredo or Davydenko. Davydenko from that FO would own Sampras. Or wait, this is the period when Sampras started losing to complete mugs. Make that Michael Russell, then.
2008 - Montanes
2009 - anyone, really. Haas was playing fantastic. Monfils wasn't easy to beat. Del Potro was in great form. Soderling needless to say.
2010 - Soderling. I don't even bother to check the rest. Probably someone in the 1st or 2nd round would be good enough.
2011 - Djokovic
2012 - Djokovic

Povl Carstensen · Dec 30, 2012

mistik said:
Thats nothing to do with Fed.Hewitt,Roddick type of players can only be a rival in a transition era.They have no business of being N01 under normal circumstances.

It is relative between Fed and them. Without him, it would be a strong era with multiple slam winners. I think we have been over this.

Phoenix1983 · Dec 30, 2012

Prisoner of Birth said:
Nadal is well on his way to surpassing Sampras. If he gets to 14 Grand Slams, like I think he will, I'd say he's surpassed him. If he gets to 15, it becomes almost indisputable.

I doubt Nadal will reach 14 slams - at the moment he can barely get back on tour. At the moment people should be concerned about him surpassing Borg.

If he does reach 14 slams, it depends how they are distributed - I will NOT consider him greater than Sampras if 10 of those slams are at the FO.

mistik · Dec 30, 2012

Phoenix1983 said:
Six consecutive years ending as No 1 in the Open Era?

Also your argument is a bit misleading. Maybe Nadal's single-surface dominance will "never be broken", but that doesn't mean he gets to rank above Sampras overall, even if the latter has no "unbreakable" records. You cannot achieve the vast majority of your numbers on one surface and expect to be ranked above guys who dominated on multiple surfaces like Federer, Laver, Sampras and Borg.

Nadal managed to win career slam.Thats his strong card towards Sampras. He has at least 2 majors in every surface.Sampras NONE on clay.

pringles · Dec 30, 2012

mistik said:
Even Monte Carlo isnt what i used to be.

What, they use older bricks to make clay? What kind of an arguement is that?

MC is as slow as a surface can be.

fed_rulz · Dec 30, 2012

Phoenix1983 said:
I doubt Nadal will reach 14 slams - at the moment he can barely get back on tour. At the moment people should be concerned about him surpassing Borg.

If he does reach 14 slams, it depends how they are distributed - I will NOT consider him greater than Sampras if 10 of those slams are at the FO.

Sampras has 2 slams on slower surfaces, and 12 on faster. are you ok with that distribution?

Deleted member 77403 · Dec 30, 2012

Towser83 said:
Well competition is different and we can never know how Sampras would do vs today's guys or how Federer would do in the 90s. Grass HAS slowed, and so has some HC. Very few serve and volley players. Also way more emphasis is placed on the masters and olympics.

Well Federer let Roddick get ONE slam, Hewitt never got one after Fed won his first and Safin got 1 afterwards. The fact that there were so few slams won by other players was an argument for Federer playing weak players, but now restricting your rivals slam count is a plus? Gimme a break. By the standard Samptard argument, the fact that Nadal has won 11 slams proves fed had tougher competition than Sampras because agassi didn't win that much til pete was past it - thus sampras had a weaker rival. Make up your minds.

I do agree with this. Federer said the same. No-one is the greatest because you need records there to shoot for, no-one should forget the records that came before.

Sampras did beat up on a lot of players from the previous generation. To be honest Pete is better than guys like Becker anyway, because he is on a level few players are. So is Federer and he'd beat people like Becker a lot especially if they were a few years past their prime. Thing is all the guys like Rafter, Courier, Sampras, retired before Federer got a chance to beat up on them. Only Agassi stuck around.

Well Sampras won his last few slams (probably last 4) in a weak period. Federer kept making RG finals- good odds that one year Nadal is going to slip up.

Since djokovic peaked in 2011 he is only 3-2 vs Federer in slams and one of his wins was from match point down, and this is against a 30 year old Federer.

I do agree though, Sampras didn't suck on clay. He just wasn't anyway near as good as he was on other surfaces and was a decent clay player but not world class. But he wasn't a clay bum like some people like to make out.

Good post. Well balanced in all arguments. Man, this thread has gotten really ugly. I am happy with these tennis icons being the greatest of their eras, since that is proven fact, but I don't understand why there is such intense fighting over the GOAT. Does it really matter that much? Maybe I am saying that because I am big fan of Federer and Sampras, and Borg, and also admire Nadal, Agassi and Laver.

mistik · Dec 30, 2012

fed_rulz said:
so soderling would reach the finals of Wimbledon in the 90s on fast grass? apparently, the speed of the surface seems to matter....

Not really since he is a tall player but no serve and volley style he would have difficulty there as well with a low bounce.Maybe he would do better in Us open.

pringles · Dec 30, 2012

Povl Carstensen said:
But Pete did not go anywhere.

What makes him even think that the same Sampras who couldn't even beat Blanco or Schaller was suddenly going to make FO finals facing different competition?

If 1997-2002 Sampras faced Benneteau in the 1st round of the FO he would've lost. Heck, I could even scroll through the first top 100 players in the rankings currently and every single one of them would be capable of beating 1997-2002 Sampras at the French Open.

90's Clay · Dec 30, 2012

pringles said:
In 2004 Sampras is not beating Kuerten. If he managed Kuerten (the last time Guga was GOATing) he would then face Nalbandian, Gaudio and Coria. Good luck.
In 2005 Sampras gets humiliated by Nadal in the SF (if he somehow manages to beat Moya in the QF or even Hanescu)
In 2006 Sampras loses to Nalbandian
In 2007 to Robredo or Davydenko. Davydenko from that FO would own Sampras. Or wait, this is the period when Sampras started losing to complete mugs. Make that Michael Russell, then.
2008 - Montanes
2009 - anyone, really. Haas was playing fantastic. Monfils wasn't easy to beat. Del Potro was in great form. Soderling needless to say.
2010 - Soderling. I don't even bother to check the rest. Probably someone in the 1st or 2nd round would be good enough.
2011 - Djokovic
2012 - Djokovic

2006- Nalbandian got injured, and 1996 if we transport Pete ahead 10 years later that was the Sampras that took out Bruguera and Courier back to back. Yet he couldn't beat an injured Nalbandian? Huh??
2007- Davydenko and Robredo? Seriously??
2003-Horna? 1993 Sampras lost to a peak Bruguera
2004- Pete would face plastic hipped Guga- (He had to play against close to peak Courier in 94 which is>>>>>>Injured Kuerten
2009- 1999 Lost to Medvedev>>>>>>Haas. Soderling is just a hardcourt ball basher.. I wouldn't call him a great clay court player. Dude was PATHETIC in the finals of the french that year. (Nadal injured which was the only reason Soderling won)

pringles · Dec 30, 2012

mistik said:
Not really since he is a tall player but no serve and volley style he would have difficulty there as well with a low bounce.Maybe he would do better in Us open.

What makes you think Soderling would play the exact same way in the 90's?

Phoenix1983 · Dec 30, 2012

fed_rulz said:
Sampras has 2 slams on slower surfaces, and 12 on faster. are you ok with that distribution?

The point is he has 7 grass slams, 7 HC slams and 5 YECs on carpet. Yes he has nothing on clay which is a weakness.

Nadal could theoretically get 14 slams of which 10 were at the FO. Then he would have 10 clay slams, 2 grass and 2 hard. No YECs.

I just don't think a guy can focus so much on one surface - even if he has won on others - and rack up numbers which supposedly allow him to surpass greats like Sampras and Borg.

I'm sure you would agree that if Nadal reached 17 slams, with 13 at the FO, that he wouldn't be greater than Federer.

fed_rulz · Dec 30, 2012

90's Clay said:
2006- Nalbandian got injured, and 1996 if we transport Pete ahead 10 years later that was the Sampras that took out Bruguera and Courier back to back.
2007- Davydenko and Robredo? Seriously??
2003-Horna? 1993 Sampras lost to a peak Bruguera
2004- Pete would face plastic hipped Guga- (He had to play against close to peak Courier in 94 which is>>>>>>Injured Kuerten
2009- 1999 Lost to Medvedev>>>>>>Haas

how did you conclude Medvedev >>>>>> Haas, when they both are from different eras?

mistik · Dec 30, 2012

Povl Carstensen said:
It is relative between Fed and them. Without him, it would be a strong era with multiple slam winners. I think we have been over this.

No it wouldnt be a strong era without Fed.İt would be a big joke like WTA without Serena.

pringles · Dec 30, 2012

mistik said:
We didnt see Sampras playing in todays clay which is clearly faster.İn 90s player like Soderling couldnt even dream to reach RG final.

Yet Courier who was an aggressive baseliner (and wasn't known for his great defence) managed to win 2 and barely missed out on a 3rd.

In the 90's.

fed_rulz · Dec 30, 2012

Phoenix1983 said:
The point is he has 7 grass slams, 7 HC slams and 5 YECs on carpet. Yes he has nothing on clay which is a weakness.

Nadal could theoretically get 14 slams of which 10 were at the FO. Then he would have 10 clay slams, 2 grass and 2 hard. No YECs.

I just don't think a guy can focus so much on one surface - even if he has won on others - and rack up numbers which supposedly allow him to surpass greats like Sampras and Borg.

I'm sure you would agree that if Nadal reached 17 slams, with 13 at the FO, that he wouldn't be greater than Federer.

no, I would gladly concede the debate in favor of Nadal (assuming their h2h is still in Nadal's favor -- Federer cannot run away from it, if it's the tiebreaker b/n the two).

Towser83 · Dec 30, 2012

Hitman said:
Good post. Well balanced in all arguments. Man, this thread has gotten really ugly. I am happy with these tennis icons being the greatest of their eras, since that is proven fact, but I don't understand why there is such intense fighting over the GOAT. Does it really matter that much? Maybe I am saying that because I am big fan of Federer and Sampras, and Borg, and also admire Nadal, Agassi and Laver.

thanks.I don't know what it is either. The more you learn about tennis the more you realise there are several players all great in their own way. i love what Federer has achieved and I don't need it to be proven he is the GOAT,I only want his achievements to be respected. A few people get so bent out of shape that doing this would rob their favourite of bragging rights so they mock instead. People do this about Sampras, Nadal, Borg and even Laver too. But on the other hand some people only look at what's being done today. A 6 hour final? yeah that muct mean tennis is getting better etc..

Apparently, Sampras still thinks he's the GOAT!!!

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