How would you react to this request?

Cindysphinx · Feb 28, 2013

I am co-captaining a ladies 40+ team. We started off with a full roster, including five singles players.

Registration fees in our league are about $40. Matches cost $18 each. Players pre-pay for four matches when they register. When the season ends, those who played more than four matches get a bill; those who played less get a refund.

Once the season schedule was released, one singles player dropped off the team because it conflicted with work.

Another singles player got injured.

Another singles player's husband started traveling a lot and she can't get a sitter.

That leaves us with two die-hard singles players who will each probably play nine matches. Without them, we would be defaulting courts at $36 a pop (default cost spread among all players on the team). Trouble is, they hadn't anticipated racking up court fees of $18 x 9.

My co-captain and I feel badly that they are paying so much for being willing to play to avoid defaults. We are looking for a way to make it up to them. We could simply pay some of their court costs, but then again, we're not made of money either and have our own court costs to pay.

Here's the idea I want to run past you folks: When it comes time for the end-of-season reconciliation, some folks will be owed a refund. We captains could suggest that players voluntarily donate some of their refund to offset the court costs of these two singles players. After all, the reason these two ladies are playing so much is because other people are not available or won't play singles.

If you were one of those players, how would you feel about this request? Would you kick in a few bucks, or would you consider the request inappropriate?

dizzlmcwizzl · Feb 28, 2013

first off it is only money so I would not mind .... but there are many others that would disagree.

However, putting an e-mail like that out to the squad might encourage a couple of your other players to make singles a go.

spot · Feb 28, 2013

Wow. In atlanta we don't pay per match fees. All that is collected up front and the team pays them equally. But that is a conversation for before the season- not now.

It does seem very extreme to have the singles pay almost $200 in court fees because no one else wants to play doubles. I'd say that it would be very tricky for the players who get squashed on playtime to be the ones to pay that. I'd say that pick the number you want to supplement and work it out equally among the players. Say its $10 per person. The people getting the refund would have it come out of that money. The others would have to pay $10 or else volunteer to play singles.

OHBH · Feb 28, 2013

The two singles get five extra matches and pay for five extra matches. Seems fair to me.

Why does the rest of the team have to eat the cost if they don't play? If you know they can't play all matches in advance, why can't you notify your opponents and book two fewer courts for those matches?

JoelDali · Feb 28, 2013

Suresh and I will GOAT them at the end of the season.

OrangePower · Feb 28, 2013

I think you ask the singles players the question: "Ideally, how many matches would you want to play". And of course the expectation is that they will answer honestly.

If they say "as many as possible", or similar, then they should of course pay for every match they play.

But on the other hand if their preference is to say only play 6 at most, and they are only going to play more because of pressure from the team to avoid defaults, then I would ask them to pay for 6, and then do as you suggest - ask the others on the team who are due refunds to consider chipping in. I would not have a problem myself chipping in under these circumstances.

For future seasons, I would set the expectation that any refunds of the up-front fees for 4 matches are completely at the discretion of the captain, as long as the captain guarantees that everyone who makes themselves available will get 4 matches.

Topaz · Feb 28, 2013

I really wish MOCO would not handle fees this way. Its such a headache for captains to do all the refund/owing at the end of the season, and my understanding is that captains end up putting a lot up front themselves. I'm still waiting on a refund from last fall because my schedule didn't allow the four prepaid matches.

I like your idea of bring it up...like someone else said, it may inspire someone else to step and play some singles! But honestly, I can also see people say (quite rightfully) that they shouldn't have to pay for other peoples' matches. Honestly, I wouldn't want to...I'm strapped myself and have enough issue budgeting my own tennis.

Any hope to just adding some singles players?

J011yroger · Feb 28, 2013

You play, you pay. You don't play, you don't pay.

This is recreational, you know, for fun. Fun costs money.

The singles players aren't heroic characters sacrificing their time for those less fortunate. They are playing a tennis match.

If someone asked me for money to reimburse someone who played more matches than I did, I would tell them to go poop in their hat.

J

Cindysphinx · Feb 28, 2013

Topaz said:
I really wish MOCO would not handle fees this way. Its such a headache for captains to do all the refund/owing at the end of the season, and my understanding is that captains end up putting a lot up front themselves. I'm still waiting on a refund from last fall because my schedule didn't allow the four prepaid matches.

I like your idea of bring it up...like someone else said, it may inspire someone else to step and play some singles! But honestly, I can also see people say (quite rightfully) that they shouldn't have to pay for other peoples' matches. Honestly, I wouldn't want to...I'm strapped myself and have enough issue budgeting my own tennis.

Any hope to just adding some singles players?

Nah, it is too late to add anyone. And you know how hard it is to find singles players over age 40.

Regarding the court fees system we have here. . . . Players hate it, captains love it. It is ridiculous to ask captains to front over $1000 and then collect it up later. That really discouraged people from captaining.

What I don't care for is Virginia's system of collecting money at every match from every player. That s a huge pain in the behind for captains.

Cindysphinx · Feb 28, 2013

OHBH said:
The two singles get five extra matches and pay for five extra matches. Seems fair to me.

Why does the rest of the team have to eat the cost if they don't play? If you know they can't play all matches in advance, why can't you notify your opponents and book two fewer courts for those matches?

The league pays for blocks of indoor courts at the beginning of the season. If teams do not use their courts, they must still pay for them because te league lready bought them.

Angle Queen · Feb 28, 2013

Quick Question before I answer/give my opinion.

Do the doubles players also pay $18 each per match (for $36 per court) or is the "court" fee of $18 divided by the both them?

Cindysphinx · Feb 28, 2013

Doubles payers also pay $18 per match per person. So $72 per court.

If you default a court, you owe all of the costs for that court for all players. That is $36 for defaulting singles and $72 for defaulting doubles.

Our policy is that a player who causes a default must pay the entire cost by herself.

If we default a court because we didn't ave enough available payers, we share the cost as a team.

Angle Queen · Feb 28, 2013

The way I see it, (almost) everyone on the team is on the hook for at least another $18. I'd put it to them this way:

(A) you can play a singles match and pay the $18 OR
(B) you can "hire" someone else to play it for you (and pay "their" $18 ) OR
(C) accept that there will be some "team" defaults, which must also be divided up monetarily...AND you've lost the ability, as a team, to potentially win that "line" -- making winning the "match" that much more difficult.

For me personally, I'd probably choose these options in the order I've presented them, none of which would bother me. It's part of being part of a TEAM.

Dave M · Feb 28, 2013

Are league matches always that expensive over there?Who gets the money and what do they do with it?
Thinking about it is it paid to your area tennis ass?

Overdrive · Feb 28, 2013

See, this is why I'm not playing league tennis. Have to pay for matches that you aren't even going to play and too much drama.

Being a nomadic singles player in tournaments sounds a lot better.

sureshs · Feb 28, 2013

Dave M said:
Are league matches always that expensive over there?Who gets the money and what do they do with it?
Thinking about it is it paid to your area tennis ass?

hehehe.............

No, Cindy gets the money.

oops.........

Cindysphinx · Feb 28, 2013

Dave M said:
Are league matches always that expensive over there?Who gets the money and what do they do with it?
Thinking about it is it paid to your area tennis ass?

We (MD near DC) have no public courts available for league play. We have a large league. We play almost all league matches indoors. The league purchases unusued court time from county indoor facilities and also from swanky private clubs; the $18 pays for court time.

The $18 is actually a blended rate. The league did not want to charge per court, as it would make singles twice as expensive as doubles. So it is $18 per person per two-hour timed match.

If we did not do it this way, we would have a very short and weather-interrupted season in the warmer months and nothing in the winter. Because we are able to purchase this huge amount of indoor time, we have year-round league tennis in every conceivable format.

JoelDali · Feb 28, 2013

In NYC we pay $38 per match for USTA GOATed Glory(tm).

It's actually going up to $42 this year.

Good times.

Mike Y · Feb 28, 2013

My god you guys pay a lot to play matches. All we have is a $26 flat fee to join a team, then we have to pay whatever fee it is to play matches at our home facility, but for the large majority of facilities that I am aware of in my area, there are no extra fees for court time other than the flat membership fee, which we have already paid in most cases. After hearing what other people pay, I consider myself lucky to be playing tennis in my area.

Anyway, players should pay whatever the costs are to play. Some may want to play 9 singles matches and will pay the appropriate amount. If they don't want to pay/play that much, they can decline. Even if they are the designated singles players, you can't force them to play every match. Someone else can step up and play singles if need be if the team doesn't want to pay the default cost.

dcdoorknob · Feb 28, 2013

Back to the original question...

I wouldn't be offended or anything at being asked. I'm not sure if I'd actually donate or not (more likely I would volunteer to play some singles myself during the season instead), but I don't know why people should be offended at being asked. They're free to decline if they wish.

jmnk · Feb 28, 2013

first off, if I was playing doubles, it would seem very unfair to me that I'm paying as much as a single player while actually 'using' only half the court the single player is using. But maybe I just do not see the appeal of doubles....

on the side note. Basically the issue is over unexpected extra $100 or so for additional matches those single players were not counting on. Do people really live so paycheck-to-paycheck that they cannot afford extra $100 over 4 to 6 months? It just seems crazy....

MeHere2PlayTennis · Feb 28, 2013

I think that the players that are receiving the refund should consider pitching in for the singles' players costs. After all they already spent the money, so its not as if they were putting out more than they already were.

Having captained before, I know that finding singles players is tough especially in the 40s. It seems that there are a smaller amount of players willing to play singles.

omega4 · Feb 28, 2013

Personally, I think those players who had to back out of playing on your team are the ones who should be subsidizing the costs of the 2 hardcore singles players.

Failure to enforce this will only lead to more players "dropping out" for a variety of reasons in the future.

If people have ANY doubts about their ability to participate on a tennis team where money is involved, then people should NOT sign up. This includes injuries as well, as some people are simply more injury-prone then others.

If I'm due a refund, then I expect a refund in full.

Cindysphinx said:
I am co-captaining a ladies 40+ team. We started off with a full roster, including five singles players.

Registration fees in our league are about $40. Matches cost $18 each. Players pre-pay for four matches when they register. When the season ends, those who played more than four matches get a bill; those who played less get a refund.

Once the season schedule was released, one singles player dropped off the team because it conflicted with work.

Another singles player got injured.

Another singles player's husband started traveling a lot and she can't get a sitter.

That leaves us with two die-hard singles players who will each probably play nine matches. Without them, we would be defaulting courts at $36 a pop (default cost spread among all players on the team). Trouble is, they hadn't anticipated racking up court fees of $18 x 9.

My co-captain and I feel badly that they are paying so much for being willing to play to avoid defaults. We are looking for a way to make it up to them. We could simply pay some of their court costs, but then again, we're not made of money either and have our own court costs to pay.

Here's the idea I want to run past you folks: When it comes time for the end-of-season reconciliation, some folks will be owed a refund. We captains could suggest that players voluntarily donate some of their refund to offset the court costs of these two singles players. After all, the reason these two ladies are playing so much is because other people are not available or won't play singles.

If you were one of those players, how would you feel about this request? Would you kick in a few bucks, or would you consider the request inappropriate?

floridatennisdude · Mar 1, 2013

J011yroger said:
You play, you pay. You don't play, you don't pay.

This is recreational, you know, for fun. Fun costs money.

The singles players aren't heroic characters sacrificing their time for those less fortunate. They are playing a tennis match.

If someone asked me for money to reimburse someone who played more matches than I did, I would tell them to go poop in their hat.

J

Alert: GOAT post

spot · Mar 1, 2013

jmnk said:
Basically the issue is over unexpected extra $100 or so for additional matches those single players were not counting on. Do people really live so paycheck-to-paycheck that they cannot afford extra $100 over 4 to 6 months? It just seems crazy....

In Atlanta we go off of team dues that everyone pays equally rather than having people pay per match they play. Right now our team dues are like $45 per season. (The women get coaching and they are at around $80) If Team dues went up to $250 there would be a mass exodus from the team.

Govnor · Mar 1, 2013

everyone should pay the same, at the start. Tough call now.

Mauvaise · Mar 1, 2013

We sure have it good where I am. It's $30 to register for a team and court & ball costs and how they are paid are at the discretion of the captains. Some do a pay as you play method. Some have the entire team pay equally. Since I play everyone equally, I divide the costs for the whole team. The home team is solely responsible for the court fees and balls. For my 3.0 team of 12, it worked out to $44/person for the season. 15 matches total for the season (7 home), everyone is playing from 9-11 matches each.

Edit: As for being asked to subsidize someone's court time? I don't think I'd be too happy with the person that asked. However, if it was couched in the terms of "either we can pay $X for a defaulted court or we can pay $Y (if $Y is less than $X) to avoid defaulting" it would be a much easier pill to swallow.

goober · Mar 1, 2013

Overdrive said:
See, this is why I'm not playing league tennis. Have to pay for matches that you aren't even going to play and too much drama.

Being a nomadic singles player in tournaments sounds a lot better.

Tournament tennis you pay $30-50+ and you could end up only playing one match if you lose in the first round. For the same amount of money I get 6-10 matches in leagues.

hcelizondo · Mar 1, 2013

I'll side with Omega in this one. The one who backed out should pay at least some of the money... I would refund them only 50% of the 4 matches they paid in advance. The remaining 505 would be allocated to pay part of the fee of the hard core singles players (6 matches right) and the rest will be covered by the singles players. In this scenario the harcore players will pay for ~2 extra matches which now it seems fair to me

cknobman · Mar 1, 2013

I dont like the idea of trying to make people pay up front for a "per match" cost because it then creates an obligation to let them play a set amount of times and you never know what can happen throughout the course of a season.

Our team gets the season court costs up front, add ball costs, and then divides the total by the number of players on the team. That way everyone pays equally and no refunds have to be paid out at end of season.

blakesq · Mar 1, 2013

If the singles players don't want to play so much, have some of your doubles players play singles. problem solved.

Cindysphinx · Mar 1, 2013

OK, we have a solution.

My co-captain doesn't want to raise the issue with the team. She believes it might not be received well by everyone and would thus be more trouble than it is worth. (In reading the divergence of opinion on this thread, I tend to agree).

She is going to pay for an extra two matches, and I will do the same. That will offset the cost of two matches for each singles player.

It isn't fair to us, but I guess paying $36 to get rid of a potential hassle is a bargain.

ronray43 · Mar 1, 2013

Wow . . . a bit pricey! Colorado's registration fees are around $23 per person per league; court costs are $7 per person, even for singles matches. Same court costs regardless of whether indoors or outdoors.

Angle Queen · Mar 1, 2013

Cindysphinx said:
She is going to pay for an extra two matches, and I will do the same. That will offset the cost of two matches for each singles player.

Magnanimous of you two. Hats off.

But I would think you could subtly, casually bring-it up in conversations with your teammates. You might be pleasantly surprised that a few of them step up too. I certainly would, even if it was only a 10-spot...or picking up your bar/munchy tab afterwards.

dennis10is · Mar 3, 2013

J011yroger said:
You play, you pay. You don't play, you don't pay.

This is recreational, you know, for fun. Fun costs money.

The singles players aren't heroic characters sacrificing their time for those less fortunate. They are playing a tennis match.

If someone asked me for money to reimburse someone who played more matches than I did, I would tell them to go poop in their hat.

J

Silly Jolly,
How easily you've minimized the additional yet countless amount of blood, sweat, and tears that singles players have made so that they could help their teamates in the Holiest of quests.

As captain of a men's 1.0 team, our singles players have free room and board at the doubles players' expense. They have first dibs for the amorous attention of our wives and offsprings.

It is the least that we can do to support our valiant singles players.

One time, one of our doubles player step in front of a bullet for our fifth reserve singles.

Now, I know that it resembles the oldest profession but think of the Seven Samurai instead for a comparison.

Spokewench · Mar 5, 2013

That was a very nice decision on your part, but I would have asked my teammates what they thought - and asked if some would help pitch in. For those that don't want to, that is fine; for the others, they feel like they are actually part of a team and are willing to pitch in. If the request is not mandatory, then no one should get too mad.

Sakkijarvi · Mar 6, 2013

In one state where I play USTA, you only pay when you are the visiting team. In another, you pay for each match. Smart money is pick all the home matches you can when you only pay for the road matches

Overdrive · Mar 6, 2013

goober said:
Tournament tennis you pay $30-50+ and you could end up only playing one match if you lose in the first round. For the same amount of money I get 6-10 matches in leagues.

Here at most tournaments, I am guaranteed 3-4 matches. Depending on the tournament type as well, I won't lose in the first round.

Sure, but all of this politics in leagues is turning me off.

Overdrive · Mar 6, 2013

Cindysphinx said:
I am co-captaining a ladies 40+ team. We started off with a full roster, including five singles players.

Registration fees in our league are about $40. Matches cost $18 each. Players pre-pay for four matches when they register. When the season ends, those who played more than four matches get a bill; those who played less get a refund.

Once the season schedule was released, one singles player dropped off the team because it conflicted with work.

Another singles player got injured.

Another singles player's husband started traveling a lot and she can't get a sitter.

That leaves us with two die-hard singles players who will each probably play nine matches. Without them, we would be defaulting courts at $36 a pop (default cost spread among all players on the team). Trouble is, they hadn't anticipated racking up court fees of $18 x 9.

My co-captain and I feel badly that they are paying so much for being willing to play to avoid defaults. We are looking for a way to make it up to them. We could simply pay some of their court costs, but then again, we're not made of money either and have our own court costs to pay.

Here's the idea I want to run past you folks: When it comes time for the end-of-season reconciliation, some folks will be owed a refund. We captains could suggest that players voluntarily donate some of their refund to offset the court costs of these two singles players. After all, the reason these two ladies are playing so much is because other people are not available or won't play singles.

If you were one of those players, how would you feel about this request? Would you kick in a few bucks, or would you consider the request inappropriate?

Okay, If I do the math:

18*4= 72+ 40= $112?

Here, I'm looking at the league prices and your team's prices are 60% more than the prices in the local league...

Cindysphinx · Mar 6, 2013

Yes, tennis in the DC Metro area is more expensive than some other places.

I remain dumbfounded that folks are surprised that tennis in major metro areas and colder climates have higher prices for tennis. Like, duh.

Overdrive · Mar 6, 2013

I'm not surprised actually. I've lived in Virginia Beach for a few years and it was expensive there. Compared to Texas, shacks in Virginia Beach were 150K+...

Anyways, it's one in 50,000 reasons why I'm a Texan.

OrangePower · Mar 6, 2013

It's not just about the general priceyness of an area; it also depends on weather - indoor courts cost a lot more.

Here in Norcal, we have some of the most expensive real estate costs outside of NYC, but tennis is relatively cheap unless you insist on playing at a fancy club or indoors. Because our good weather allows for outdoor play year round, and there are plenty of decent public facilities.

How would you react to this request?

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