Would you considered to be a **** if you called foot faults

RetroSpin · May 1, 2013

I was playing in a club tourney doubles match against a father and son team. Son was high school age. The son was stepping two or three feet into the court and serving bombs. I politely mentioned to the dad that his son was footfaulting and could he please ask him to tone it donw, and the guy almost came across the net at me. "He had never heard of such a thing, blah blah blah." The dad pouted the entire match, refused to shake my hand after we won and tried to give the impression I was a dick.

I didn't know him and didn't really care. If the match had been close, I probably would have asked for the head pro to come over. I had to bite back telling the dad after the match he was really setting a great example for his son.

RetroSpin · May 1, 2013

I think you have to make a distinction between the two basic kinds of double faults. Some people might nudge the line when they step up with their back foot, or turn their front foot and get on the line, or maybe inch up a hair before jumping. Nobody is going to call those.

A fair number of people however set up right on the line, then take a step with their front foot, kind of like they're hitting an overhead. Often they take quite a big step then jump forward, so they're halfway to the service line. That's just cheating in my book, no different than jobbing you on line calls. Actually, these are the same people who often do job you on line calls.

asimple · May 1, 2013

gameboy said:
If you have ANY shift with your feet the chances are you are foot faulting. I know you don't feel it, but every person who foot faults believe they don't foot fault either.

If you move your feet, have another person watch you during matches to make sure you don't do it (observing just during practices may not reveal it).

I have no shift in my front foot, and my back foot is always behind my front as my shoulders are turned. I do not follow through with my foot until well after the ball is hit. I am very consistent with this motion and there is zero chance of my back foot faulting or front foot moving. There is the chance that I would line up to serve improperly, but this too would also be rare as I am very specific about where I stand.

I have played in places where foot faults were called and have never been called. I also had someone check this recently and said I didn't foot fault (they also had a foot fault issue).

sovertennis · May 1, 2013

Cindysphinx said:
Please. If my partner is FFing (or grunting, or returning obvious faults, or calling lines badly), please do not drag me into it. Complain to her directly.

I'm not about to take your side or get involved or scold my partner or call her out. All you'll get out of me is a shrug and maybe some WTF hands.

Cindy: If, after I courteously mentioned to you/your partner to please be more cognizant of the rules regarding foot faulting, you gave me the "WTF hands" in response, I'd consider them a very good target for the next short lob/easy volley that came my way. With an attitude like yours, it's no wonder your "tennis infrastructure is collapsing."

spot · May 1, 2013

sovertennis said:
Cindy: If, after I courteously mentioned to you/your partner to please be more cognizant of the rules regarding foot faulting, you gave me the "WTF hands" in response, I'd consider them a very good target for the next short lob/easy volley that came my way.

Who looks back from the net to see if their partner is footfaulting?! Why on earth would you tell the partner of the person? Telling the person who isn't ever going to see it and expecting a response other than a shrug of the shoulders seems pretty odd. I think my response would probably be "I didn't see any footfault".

Cindysphinx · May 1, 2013

I will tell you a time when I pretty much gave my opponents the WTF hands.

I was playing with a partner who is a grunter (I told the story here, so some may remember it). Bottom line: In the middle of the second set, my partner was serving and I was at net. She hit some shot, with her usual loud grunt.

After the point, the opponents looked at me and said, "Come on" or some such. I said something like "Pardon?" They then complained that my partner was grunting too loud.

Really? You expect me to walk back to my partner and say, "Hey, could you hold it down? Our opponents want me to tell you to be more quiet." What am I, the Grunt Police?

Nope. Not gonna happen. If you have a problem with my partner, talk to my partner. If you have to walk to the net and beckon her closer to make your point, do it.

tennis tom · May 1, 2013

The code says it's everyone's duty to help with the calls and I would include helping to remedy a chronic cheater who's ff'ing. I wouldn't want to be associated partnering with a cheater. If the other side had a legitimate claim, I would help them to rectify the perp. Three on one might help, but I have seen "players" who would deny it even if an army pointed it out to them and had video taped evidence--they have huge egos or something wrong in their kielbasa.

TXdad · May 1, 2013

A foot fault is a foot fault, period. Nothing to be dragged in to, to ignore the obvious is simply cheating. I have never called a foot fault but it is all too common.

Cindysphinx · May 1, 2013

tennis tom said:
The code says it's everyone's duty to help with the calls and I would include helping to remedy a chronic cheater who's ff'ing. I wouldn't want to be associated partnering with a cheater. If the other side had a legitimate claim, I would help them to rectify the perp. Three on one might help, but I have seen "players" who would deny it even if an army pointed it out to them and had video taped evidence--they have huge egos or something wrong in their kielbasa.

How exactly would you determine whether your partner was FFing? You could turn around and watch them serve and risk a blast to the face, I guess. Or you could play two back and play the role of linesperson instead of doubles partner.

Nah.

If my opponents tell me that my partner is FFing, I will tell them to tell her. If she wants to argue the point, she can.

If my opponents begin calling FFs on my partner after warning her, I will stay out of it. If she asks my opinion, I will tell her to back the heck up from the line and don't worry about it.

I play with a partner who is a huge, huge FFer. I see her FF whenever I am on the sidelines. Really blatant -- huge step into the court and then she hits the ball. I cannot for the life of me understand why no one calls her on this because you should be able to see it from Mars, but they do not.

Still, I have never seen her FF *during* one of our matches. This is because I am at the net watching the returner and trying to pick off the return.

Arafel · May 1, 2013

Foot faults are a pet peeve of mine. I see so many people doing it, but I never call it. It's not worth it in a rec match. Sometimes in some of the opens, the ref who flips the coin informs me and my opponent that he or she will be checking in periodically, and will call foot faults if they see them. I've gotten called a couple of times, but it's pretty infrequent. I think actually the officials should be more aggressive in calling foot faults.

dizzlmcwizzl · May 1, 2013

Occasionally I will for fault ... When I do I slightly turn my front foot and it ends up being on the base line but not extending over the baseline. I have never had one called on me in any of the 50+officiated matches I have played.

However, in one match a singles opponent warned me that I was foot faulting when he was down in the match. It was obvious to me that his was an attempt at gamesmanship .... I did not let it bother me in terms of the match outcome but it did really **** me off.

There has got to be a better way.

I Heart Thomas Muster · May 1, 2013

If it's accidental and not giving my opponent an advantage I would stay quiet. I used to play a serve and volleyer with long arms and a 29 inch racquet who was 2+ feet inside the baseline by the time the serve was actually struck.

Then again I never said anything to him either.

Joeyg · May 1, 2013

I actually play dubs with someone who foot faults with both feet and serves and volleys on every point. He almost always hits his first volley from inside the service line as his foot faulting gets him into the court by 3-4 feet. At the 4.5 level that is a huge advantage!

I have always said that if I played a USTA match against him, I would start calling them.

Relinquis · May 1, 2013

I Heart Thomas Muster said:
If it's accidental and not giving my opponent an advantage I would stay quiet. I used to play a serve and volleyer with long arms and a 29 inch racquet who was 2+ feet inside the baseline by the time the serve was actually struck.

Then again I never said anything to him either.

but was he touching the ground? if not, it's a valid serve.

Torres · May 1, 2013

Cindysphinx said:
Please. If my partner is FFing (or grunting, or returning obvious faults, or calling lines badly), please do not drag me into it. Complain to her directly.

That's a real cop out. NOBODY should be fault faulting. It's really not difficult to avoid fault faulting. Haven't these players ever been taught properly?

Cindysphinx · May 1, 2013

^ Some of you need to alpha dog up a little. If any player is violating a rule or doing something improper, you need to raise it with that player and not expect others to intercede on your behalf.

Geez, what are you afraid of?

kylebarendrick · May 1, 2013

Cindy, I once had an opponent say to me (after he and his partner had just won the 1st set), "just so you know, your partner is foot faulting". My response? "So is yours".

It wasn't mentioned again.

The only times I've brought it up during a match are when the guy on the other side is acting like a true jerk. In one case my opponent was hitting balls at us after points were over, yelling during our serves and overheads, etc. I couldn't help myself but to send him over the edge by calling his footfaults. Nothing good came of it but it made me feel better.

Mighty Matteo · May 1, 2013

One should never call foot faults on the opponent. It doesn't make for good tennis. Anyways, footfaults should be called on by oneself, rather than the opponent because the opponent does not have a good viewpoint.

mmk · May 1, 2013

Mighty Matteo said:
One should never call foot faults on the opponent. It doesn't make for good tennis. Anyways, footfaults should be called on by oneself, rather than the opponent because the opponent does not have a good viewpoint.

Unless the foot fault is crossing the center line. I used to play against a guy who would walk a foot or two between the time he started his service motion to when he actually hit the ball. Sometimes he lined up for serves like one would for doubles, but usually he started right by the center line, ending up a couple feet over. Kind of hard to miss. I never called him on it, as I'm pretty sure it wasn't intentional, and it didn't give him any kind of real advantage.

dcdoorknob · May 1, 2013

Mighty Matteo said:
One should never call foot faults on the opponent. It doesn't make for good tennis. Anyways, footfaults should be called on by oneself, rather than the opponent because the opponent does not have a good viewpoint.

Well assuming the server is actually looking up at the ball they are in the process of hitting for a serve, I'd say the server's viewpoint for his own footfaults is pretty bad too!

tennisbuck · May 1, 2013

well since i play in junior matches if someone is really doing it i will just go get a ref and then my opponent starts standing about 6 inches behind the line

so that is obviously effective. However if its practice i won't call it, unless its with a friend and i will just let them know they should work on not doing it so they don't get penalized during a usta match.

TomT · May 1, 2013

Torres said:
....on your opponents during a competitive dubs match?

Just curious as I hate these guys who continually step over the lines.

Opponent's footfaulting isn't a problem for me. I really don't think it confers any advantage, and is actually indicative of lesser ability.
Pronounced grunting, screaming, screaching, groaining when hitting the ball can be a problem.
Continually making bad calls can be a problem.
Not showing up on time and not calling can be a problem.
Not showing up at all and not calling is definitely a problem.
Not bringing new balls to the match can be a problem.
But footfaulting isn't a problem.

Of course, you've got to draw the line somewhere, and I have no objection to the rule being consistently enforced. At my level though I don't see it as ever being an issue.

Torres · May 2, 2013

Cindysphinx said:
^ Some of you need to alpha dog up a little. If any player is violating a rule or doing something improper, you need to raise it with that player and not expect others to intercede on your behalf.

Geez, what are you afraid of?

Personally, I don't have an issue in raising it. I challenged someone the other day mid way through his service action. Thus leading to this thread.

Its still a cop out what you're doing though if you're aware of it and just turn a blind eye. It reflects just as badly on you.

Cindysphinx · May 2, 2013

Torres said:
Personally, I don't have an issue in raising it. I challenged someone the other day mid way through his service action. Thus leading to this thread.

Its still a cop out what you're doing though if you're aware of it and just turn a blind eye. It reflects just as badly on you.

How could I be aware of whether my partner is foot faulting?

How does my partner's jacked up serve motion (or grunting or any other rules violation) reflect badly on me?

If I ever have a problem with an opponent's sportsmanship or anything else, I hold it against the person doing it.

tennis tom · May 2, 2013

Cindysphinx said:
How exactly would you determine whether your partner was FFing? You could turn around and watch them serve and risk a blast to the face, I guess. Or you could play two back and play the role of linesperson instead of doubles partner.

...I play with a partner who is a huge, huge FFer. I see her FF whenever I am on the sidelines. Really blatant -- huge step into the court and then she hits the ball. I cannot for the life of me understand why no one calls her on this because you should be able to see it from Mars, but they do not.

Still, I have never seen her FF *during* one of our matches. This is because I am at the net watching the returner and trying to pick off the return.

Vic Seixas used to watch his partner serve, when asked if he wasn't worried about getting hit by the ball he said, "No, if he knew where the ball was going, he could get out of the way."

You know your partner is a chronic ff'er, so when your opponents make an issue out of it, why don't you believe they could be correct and not gaming? Circumstantial evidence is convictable. If the three of you try to knock some sense into her maybe she will mend her evil ways.

If she's so egotistical and won't fix it when confronted by everyone on the court, I wouldn't want to be on the court with that person. Hitting against a wall or signing up for a singles tournament would be preferable.

If your team ever makes it to playoffs, where they have roving officials who will call ff's, it will come back to bite you all. I've seen teams lose in playoff's because of one player who was so bull headed he even argued with the umpire and claimed it was "only a technical violation!". He lost the argument, the match, and his team was out of the playoffs because of it--he was a lawyer no less.

tennis_ocd · May 2, 2013

sovertennis said:
Cindy: If, after I courteously mentioned to you/your partner to please be more cognizant of the rules regarding foot faulting, you gave me the "WTF hands" in response, I'd consider them a very good target for the next short lob/easy volley that came my way. With an attitude like yours, it's no wonder your "tennis infrastructure is collapsing."

No, telling others and your partner that they're foot faulting is the way to collapse infrastructure.

I'll admit to not being the alpha dog on enforcement (and glad such people do exist) but to go to a FFers *partner* with the issue is almost as wimpy as whining about it on here the next day.

spot · May 2, 2013

Torres said:
That's a real cop out. NOBODY should be fault faulting. It's really not difficult to avoid fault faulting. Haven't these players ever been taught properly?

I'd say that for the vast majority of league players the answer is no. Most of us picked up tennis later in life and we didn't have coaches teaching us serves. People developed serves on their own and they were focused on getting the ball in. They didn't have someone staring at their feet telling them if they touched the line.

BabblingPsychopath · May 2, 2013

Maybe things are different in other areas, EVERY doubles match I watch pretty much EVERY player foot faults some, if not most of the time. At first I thought it was just an us-old-guys thing, but I watched all 4 teaching pros at our club, who all played college tennis, and they also foot fault very very often.

Because of that it seems pointless to even bother about it.

Clive Walker · May 2, 2013

I've never understood why FF are not enforced in rec tennis, but they are not, and it seems to be a sore point among those who wander into court in the process of serving. To me it's a rule of tennis, and are we not supposed to play to the rules of tennis?

spot · May 2, 2013

I've never understood why FF are not enforced in rec tennis

It is because so many rec players do not get coaching where footfaulting issues could be worked out. In general the people with the best serves don't footfault because they had extensive coaching so it makes it easy for me to not care. I'd rather play tennis and watch the ball to return it rather than watch the opponents feet and hope they touch the line.

vandre · May 2, 2013

the way i see it, it's like calling lines: unless you're absolutely positive it was out, it was in. the problem with foot faults is being absolutely sure from the other end of the court. personally, i just hit with buddies these days for exercise, so the more balls i hit, the better for me. if i were playing in a more competitive situation, i'd still give the benefit of the doubt. if i did suspect something, i'd talk to a captain or try to hunt down a roving official or some other third party to watch the feet. i've got enough to do returning serve to worry about without adding "watch server's foot" to the list.

OrangePower · May 2, 2013

Clive Walker said:
I've never understood why FF are not enforced in rec tennis, but they are not, and it seems to be a sore point among those who wander into court in the process of serving. To me it's a rule of tennis, and are we not supposed to play to the rules of tennis?

Because I don't think there is any practical way to enforce them. Who is going to make the call? The receiver(s) is too far away to see, and is typically focusing on the ball toss and contact, not the server's feet.

There is a reason the rules in general have each person making calls for things on their side of the net (line calls, double bounce, touching the net, etc). But foot fault is not something you can realistically expect the server to call on himself - not a question of honesty; much of the time server is not even aware.

tennis tom · May 2, 2013

BabblingPsychopath said:
...I watched all 4 teaching pros at our club, who all played college tennis, and they also foot fault very very often.

My condolences, the blind leading the blind. But, that might explain why they aren't on the World Tour or stockbrokers by now.

Cindysphinx · May 2, 2013

tennis tom said:
You know your partner is a chronic ff'er, so when your opponents make an issue out of it, why don't you believe they could be correct and not gaming? Circumstantial evidence is convictable. If the three of you try to knock some sense into her maybe she will mend her evil ways.

I do not play league or social matches to "knock sense" into my partners. The Code is quite clear about how FFs are to be handled. Opponents can warn, then they can call it. I do not intend to introduce additional drama into the situation by ganging up with my opponents against my partner. FFing is my partner's problem to solve. When it is my serve, it will be my FFs will be my problem to solve.

I just do not think I can be any clearer about this. If you have an issue with my partner, take it up with my partner. Even if I know my partner is a chronic FF'er, I do not know if she FF'd on that last serve -- especially if the opponents warned her before calling it. Maybe she moved back. Maybe her feet left the ground. Maybe she served underhand. Unless I saw it, I don't know.

If your team ever makes it to playoffs, where they have roving officials who will call ff's, it will come back to bite you all. I've seen teams lose in playoff's because of one player who was so bull headed he even argued with the umpire and claimed it was "only a technical violation!". He lost the argument, the match, and his team was out of the playoffs because of it--he was a lawyer no less.

: shrug :

If the official sees my partner FF, the official will tell *her,* not me.

LuckyR · May 2, 2013

tennis tom said:
If your team ever makes it to playoffs, where they have roving officials who will call ff's, it will come back to bite you all. I've seen teams lose in playoff's because of one player who was so bull headed he even argued with the umpire and claimed it was "only a technical violation!". He lost the argument, the match, and his team was out of the playoffs because of it--he was a lawyer no less.

What part of that suprised you?

NLBwell · May 3, 2013

tennis tom said:
If your team ever makes it to playoffs, where they have roving officials who will call ff's, it will come back to bite you all. I've seen teams lose in playoff's because of one player who was so bull headed he even argued with the umpire and claimed it was "only a technical violation!". He lost the argument, the match, and his team was out of the playoffs because of it--he was a lawyer no less.

Yes, and hitting your shot out or into the net is also "only a technical violation."
Humans can be quite amazing sometimes.

Orange · May 4, 2013

I play 3.0 tennis, which will be obvious from my stories.

I once told an opponent after the warmup that she had been foot faulting. She had a beginner's serve that she would hit by stepping her right foot into the court and poking at the ball with her racket. Most of her serves went into the net during the warmup. She then changed her serve entirely for the match as a result of my comment, hitting up at the ball instead of down, which made her serves more likely to go in and harder to return. I truly did her a favor by telling her.

I told another opponent that she foot faulted when making tosses that crossed the center line from the ad court, which she would hit by taking several quick steps to get to the ball, and then jumping to hit it. As a result, she crossed the center line frequently. She couldn't understand how that would be a foot fault because, she said, "but I jumped up to hit it!" It was very distracting but I didn't call it because she just couldn't believe that her actions constituted foot faults.

I think I am going to give up on telling other players about their foot faults!

dizzlmcwizzl · May 5, 2013

Orange said:
I think I am going to give up on telling other players about their foot faults!

I would not give up ... at the 3.0 level it should be about learning this stuff and improving. You are doing the tennis community a favor. And from your explanations it does not seem like you had conflict as a result.

Unfortunately ... in 10 years when most of those players are 3.5's and a couple are 4.0's they wont believe you at all when you point out they foot fault ...... there will be conflict.

omega4 · May 5, 2013

Maybe things would be less contentious if foot faults resulted in a "play over" instead of a "fault".

ttwarrior1 · May 6, 2013

U could mention it to him in a nice way and say if you continue, officials and other opponents will call it on him or her every time, and they should try to fix their serve

spot · May 6, 2013

omega4 said:
Maybe things would be less contentious if foot faults resulted in a "play over" instead of a "fault".

And what happens if the server simply chooses not to move back and correct the issue?

omega4 · May 6, 2013

spot said:
And what happens if the server simply chooses not to move back and correct the issue?

Good question. Maybe the solution is to do what they do in Mens D1 tennis with regards to lets. Allow the point to continue as if the let or foot fault never happened in the first place.

mmk · May 6, 2013

omega4 said:
Good question. Maybe the solution is to do what they do in Mens D1 tennis with regards to lets. Allow the point to continue as if the let or foot fault never happened in the first place.

So in that case how much into the court would you allow a foot fault? And the reason Men's Div I tennis mad the change with lets is that there was widespread cheating - calling lets whenever you couldn't return a serve. That is a cop-out, not a solution.

omega4 · May 6, 2013

mmk said:
So in that case how much into the court would you allow a foot fault? And the reason Men's Div I tennis mad the change with lets is that there was widespread cheating - calling lets whenever you couldn't return a serve. That is a cop-out, not a solution.

The challenge is for a player to clearly determine that his opponent has committed a foot fault. One step over the baseline is tough to see from the other side of the court. But two or three steps may be enough to clearly call a foot fault.

As I see it, most foot fault arguments revolve around both players claiming that a foot fault fraction was or was not committed, with the alleged foot-faulter claiming that the opponent can't see what happened clearly.

spot · May 6, 2013

Good question. Maybe the solution is to do what they do in Mens D1 tennis with regards to lets. Allow the point to continue as if the let or foot fault never happened in the first place.

That is even more ridiculous. Why should anyone bother to try and stop footfaulting then? Player can build their serve around getting the biggest footfault advantage they can and the person on the other side of the court has absolutely no recourse.

I think the rules are pretty much correct at this point. Don't call footfaults unless it is truly egregious. If you get called for a footfault don't be a jerk and just move back.

sureshs · May 6, 2013

In a club environment, FFs are clearly visible to anyone passing by. I make it a point to point them out. So when these guys play a league match and complain that someone was calling a FF on them, they have no credibility.

tennis tom · May 6, 2013

omega4 said:
The challenge is for a player to clearly determine that his opponent has committed a foot fault. One step over the baseline is tough to see from the other side of the court.

It's a matter of vision, I can see the foot-fault, I'm not guessing they are doing it. People's vision varies, some are better then others. For those who wish to improve there's without surgery, I would recommend practicing/focusing on the ball--it will be the best thing you can do to improve your game. The role of VISION is very underestimated as a key part of playing good tennis, if not the most important part. For those with further interest in the topic of vision improvement, read books by world renowned vision therapist Dr. Roberto Kaplan, he is a follower of the Blake method. You can go to a vision therapist and they will give you fun exercises to improve your vision. The eyes have muscles too that can be toned like any other muscle in the body.

tennis_ocd · May 6, 2013

spot said:
If you get called for a footfault don't be a jerk and just move back.

If FFing it is likely due to a "flaw" in service motion; not that you're starting too close. It's why those that do it don't usually have a serve worth getting all exercised over it.

dcdoorknob · May 6, 2013

ttwarrior1 said:
U could mention it to him in a nice way and say if you continue, officials and other opponents will call it on him or her every time, and they should try to fix their serve

What's this, a sensible post from ttwarrior?

I'm so confused.

Cindysphinx · May 6, 2013

tennis_ocd said:
If FFing it is likely due to a "flaw" in service motion; not that you're starting too close. It's why those that do it don't usually have a serve worth getting all exercised over it.

Yes. But no one is going to cure their serve deficiencies by changing their motion/toss during a match. Easier, I think, is just move back some.

Sometimes I struggle in matches to serve to the ad court because my serves are flying long or wide. I could, of course, tweak my service motion at love-40. Or I could just move wider, secure in the knowledge that moving a few feet to the left will allow geometry to fix the problem.

Would you considered to be a **** if you called foot faults

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