Rosewall > Laver

kiki · May 8, 2013

TMF said:
1980

At a glance: The US was the dominant power in tennis at the start of the 1980s, with Australia a very distant second. Great Britain and Czechoslovakia had a number of solid players, but the rest of Europe as a whole was severely lacking in talent compared to the front runners.

1990

At a glance: While tennis in America remained excellent, there was real growth across western Europe, particularly in France, Spain and Germany. Sweden and Italy, too, started producing top players and, for the first time, tennis in the Soviet Union was starting to develop.

2000

At a glance: America was not the only tennis superpower in 2000, with both France and Spain boasting impressive talent. The Soviet Union was now 15 separate countries, but that didn't stop Russia continuing to rise up the tennis rankings and, for the first time, the likes of China, Thailand and South Korea were being represented in the game's elite.

2010

At a glance: Russia and Spain carried the tennis torch at the end of 2010, with the USA a distant third at best. France, Germany and Italy were all there or thereabouts, and smaller nations like the Czech Republic, Switzerland, Serbia and Belgium were producing elite players. China, too, continued to improve, and nations such as Kazakhstan, Uzbekestan and Latvia were also joining the party. 34 nations were represented in the women's top 100 and 37 countries in the men's ranking, more than ever before.

1980´s...Australia second and Britain solid??? in which planet did it happen???

forzamilan90 · May 8, 2013

WhAt? TMF is banned? What did he do?

kiki · May 8, 2013

forzamilan90 said:
WhAt? TMF is banned? What did he do?

didn´t pass his geography and history exam...

forzamilan90 · May 8, 2013

kiki said:
didn´t pass his geography and history exam...

Should have asked me for tutoring

BobbyOne · May 9, 2013

Dear Moderator,

I don't know why TMF has been banned.

I would say that he has not insulted anyone too much. Other posters have done more insults.

TMF is stubborn sometimes but not really nasty.

Let's give him a new chance!

mightyrick · May 9, 2013

BobbyOne said:
Dear Moderator,

I don't know why TMF has been banned.

I would say that he has not insulted anyone too much. Other posters have done more insults.

TMF is stubborn sometimes but not really nasty.

Let's give him a new chance!

When mods do things, you can be sure there's a good reason.

I honestly wish everyone would stop with the personal attacks and heated exchange when people disagree.

I think the mods are very tolerant here. If I were a mod, I'd have banned a lot more people, I'm sure of it.

BobbyOne · May 9, 2013

mightyrick said:
When mods do things, you can be sure there's a good reason.

I honestly wish everyone would stop with the personal attacks and heated exchange when people disagree.

I think the mods are very tolerant here. If I were a mod, I'd have banned a lot more people, I'm sure of it.

mightyrick, You probably are right regarding bans.

TMF · May 10, 2013

kiki said:
1980´s...Australia second and Britain solid??? in which planet did it happen???

My point still stand. Australia would never dominated tennis like they did in the 60s given that tennis has evolves.

NatF · May 10, 2013

TMF said:
My point still stand. Australia would never dominated tennis like they did in the 60s given that tennis has evolves.

America dominated tennis in the 90's, Couier, Sampras, Chang, Agassi etc...Spain is fairly dominant now compared to most other nations.

forzamilan90 · May 10, 2013

TMF said:
My point still stand. Australia would never dominated tennis like they did in the 60s given that tennis has evolves.

yes! the man is back!

Mustard · May 10, 2013

TMF said:
My point still stand. Australia would never dominated tennis like they did in the 60s given that tennis has evolves.

Complete nonsense. Australia dominated in the 1960s because they were that dominant at the time, not because other countries were handicapped in some way. And don't forget the vital point is that what was the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia in the 1960s, is now Russia, Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Belarus, Moldova, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kazahstan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Serbia, Croatia, Kosovo, Montenegro, FYR Macedonia, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Slovenia, Czech Republic and Slovakia. What was 3 countries in the 1960s is now 24 countries.

TMF · May 12, 2013

Mustard said:
Complete nonsense. Australia dominated in the 1960s because they were that dominant at the time, not because other countries were handicapped in some way. And don't forget the vital point is that what was the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia in the 1960s, is now Russia, Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Belarus, Moldova, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kazahstan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Serbia, Croatia, Kosovo, Montenegro, FYR Macedonia, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Slovenia, Czech Republic and Slovakia. What was 3 countries in the 1960s is now 24 countries.

You just don't get it, do you? Tennis doesn't stood still but evolves. Sure, the Soviet Union was split up into many countries, but their more number of players combined, more facilities to access. The market is much bigger which attracts wider audiences, encourages young talent to play tennis. Don't forget many old-timers in here argue that it's a money driven business, which was non-existent during the 60s(the establishment of the ATP is the beginning of a rapid growth). There's NO WAY Australian can dominate the sport had the they face the modern ATP. They would be just another country like one in Europe.

kiki · May 12, 2013

1970´s countries as opposed to today.

Italy: Panatta,Barazutti,Bertolucci,Zugarelli
India: Vijay Amritraj and Krishan
Czeckoslovakia: kodes,Smid,Lendl ( other than Berdych?)
Netherlands: Okker
SAF: kriek,Curren,Hewitt,Mc Millan,Drisdale,Moore
Mexico:Ramirez
N Zealand

arun,Lewis
Romania:Nastase, Tiriac
Hungary: Taroczy,Gulyas
Poland:Fibak
Egypt:El Shaffei
Isarel:Glickestein
Ecuador:Andres Gomez, Viver ( world´s best junior in 1979)
Peru: Ycaza,Arraya
USA:Connors,Mc Enroe,Smith,Ashe,Gerulaitis,Lutz,Gottfried,Tanner,Stockton,Dibbs,Solomon,Mayer,Riessen,Gorman,Richey...
Sweden:Borg ( not counting their 80´s players)
Paraguay: Pecci

Spain,France and Argentina had also a few top ten players which almost all posters here know of, such as Gimeno,Orantes,Higueras,Noah,Proisy,Vilas,Clerc...

yugoslavia had no Djokovic but a stronger team with Pilic and Franulovic.Germany had Pinner,Meiler,Bungert,Ghering before Becker and later on Stich left their mark in the 80´s...

Is tennis more international now?????

End of debate.

kiki · May 12, 2013

and forgot Britain ( LLoyd,Cox,Taylor,Mottram opposed to the lonely Murray) and, of course, Australia, with Rosewall,Laver,Newcombe,Roche,Alexander,Dent,Edmondson before Cash arrived in the early 80´s...

BobbyOne · May 12, 2013

kiki said:
and forgot Britain ( LLoyd,Cox,Taylor,Mottram opposed to the lonely Murray) and, of course, Australia, with Rosewall,Laver,Newcombe,Roche,Alexander,Dent,Edmondson before Cash arrived in the early 80´s...

kiki, Marvellous answer to The Mighty Federer.

At the Australians you also could have mentioned Bowrey, Ruffels, Stone, Carmichael, Case, and Masters...

kiki · May 12, 2013

BobbyOne said:
kiki, Marvellous answer to The Mighty Federer.

At the Australians you also could have mentioned Bowrey, Ruffels, Stone, Carmichael, Case, and Masters...

Thanks

Also consider four aussies who reached the AO finals: Crealy in 1970, Mal Anderson in 1972 ( he also won the US title 15 yrs before), Marks, runner up in 1978 and, the talented Kim Warwick, who lost the 81 finals.

I think it was Ted Tingling who said, after Kim beat Clerc and Noah at the 1982 US Open ( lost to Lendl in the quarters) something like: " I feel like I was at an Art Gallery looking Kim play that well"

BobbyOne · May 12, 2013

kiki said:
Thanks

Also consider four aussies who reached the AO finals: Crealy in 1970, Mal Anderson in 1972 ( he also won the US title 15 yrs before), Marks, runner up in 1978 and, the talented Kim Warwick, who lost the 81 finals.

I think it was Ted Tingling who said, after Kim beat Clerc and Noah at the 1982 US Open ( lost to Lendl in the quarters) something like: " I feel like I was at an Art Gallery looking Kim play that well"

You are right. There were more Aussie tennis players then than grains of sand at the Copa Cabana...

I possess a video showing the second set of the 1979 Brisbane tournament, the QF encounter Rosewall vs. Warwick. Rosewall won that match 6-3,6-4 and reached his last ATP SF at 45...

Mustard · May 12, 2013

Mal Anderson had the tournament of his life at the 1959 Wembley Pro. A brilliant 5-set win over Pancho Segura in the final.

BobbyOne · May 12, 2013

Mustard said:
Mal Anderson had the tournament of his life at the 1959 Wembley Pro. A brilliant 5-set win over Pancho Segura in the final.

Yes and he had beaten Sedgman and Rosewall before the final. And still a few posters doubt Anderson's strength...

Chopin · May 12, 2013

God save the Queen.

kiki · May 12, 2013

BobbyOne said:
You are right. There were more Aussie tennis players then than grains of sand at the Copa Cabana...

I possess a video showing the second set of the 1979 Brisbane tournament, the QF encounter Rosewall vs. Warwick. Rosewall won that match 6-3,6-4 and reached his last ATP SF at 45...

Absolutely
Remember seeing Rosewall' s name in the list of 79 GP semis
A few years later I watched him demolish opposition at a senior event
Of course he was by far the oldest guy in field
Yes Australia is BY FAR the best in titles per capita in general sports and not only in tennis
They had akso top class car racers, golfers,cycle and bike racers,swimmers,golfers,athlets except soccer where the greatest title per capita country is another of my faves: Uruguayç

hoodjem · May 13, 2013

kiki said:
Yes Australia is BY FAR the best in titles per capita in general sports and not only in tennis
They had also top class car racers, golfers, cycle and bike racers, swimmers, golfers, athletes except soccer where the greatest title per capita country is another of my faves: Uruguay

It's the culture.

Or maybe a way off that prison-island.

BobbyOne · May 13, 2013

kiki said:
Absolutely
Remember seeing Rosewall' s name in the list of 79 GP semis
A few years later I watched him demolish opposition at a senior event
Of course he was by far the oldest guy in field
Yes Australia is BY FAR the best in titles per capita in general sports and not only in tennis
They had akso top class car racers, golfers,cycle and bike racers,swimmers,golfers,athlets except soccer where the greatest title per capita country is another of my faves: Uruguayç

kiki, Gonzalez shared with Rosewall the honour of reaching a SF at 45. Two old giants.

It was curious: Rosewall won the junior veteran title (35 plus) of 1979 when being almost 45. Muscles defeated players like Laver, Riessen, Drysdale and Okker. Okker had reached the Wimbledon QFs a few months earlier...

TMF · May 13, 2013

kiki said:
1970´s countries as opposed to today.

Italy: Panatta,Barazutti,Bertolucci,Zugarelli
India: Vijay Amritraj and Krishan
Czeckoslovakia: kodes,Smid,Lendl ( other than Berdych?)
Netherlands: Okker
SAF: kriek,Curren,Hewitt,Mc Millan,Drisdale,Moore
Mexico:Ramirez
N Zealandarun,Lewis
Romania:Nastase, Tiriac
Hungary: Taroczy,Gulyas
Poland:Fibak
Egypt:El Shaffei
Isarel:Glickestein
Ecuador:Andres Gomez, Viver ( world´s best junior in 1979)
Peru: Ycaza,Arraya
USA:Connors,Mc Enroe,Smith,Ashe,Gerulaitis,Lutz,Gottfried,Tanner,Stockton,Dibbs,Solomon,Mayer,Riessen,Gorman,Richey...
Sweden:Borg ( not counting their 80´s players)
Paraguay: Pecci

Spain,France and Argentina had also a few top ten players which almost all posters here know of, such as Gimeno,Orantes,Higueras,Noah,Proisy,Vilas,Clerc...

yugoslavia had no Djokovic but a stronger team with Pilic and Franulovic.Germany had Pinner,Meiler,Bungert,Ghering before Becker and later on Stich left their mark in the 80´s...

Is tennis more international now?????

End of debate.

Yes, tennis and other sports are play more across the globe. As I've mentioned above...better marketing, more facilities, money driven, and of course greater number of athletes pursuing the game. Trying to argue sports in 70s is more global is like trying to argue the population in the 70s is greater than the present day.

Your list above prove nothing. Any generation has top players coming from certain countries(randomly), but that doesn't anything about the size of the pool.

The Celtics dominated basketball in the 60s just like the Australian dominated tennis. However, you put that Celtics of the 60s and compete against the NBA today, they win nothing.

BobbyOne · May 13, 2013

TMF said:
Yes, tennis and other sports are play more across the globe. As I've mentioned above...better marketing, more facilities, money driven, and of course greater number of athletes pursuing the game. Trying to argue sports in 70s is more global is like trying to argue the population in the 70s is greater than the present day.

Your list above prove nothing. Any generation has top players coming from certain countries(randomly), but that doesn't anything about the size of the pool.

The Celtics dominated basketball in the 60s just like the Australian dominated tennis. However, you put that Celtics of the 60s and compete against the NBA today, they win nothing.

Mighty Federer, In the competition " ignorant posters" you have good chances to gain the first prize.

kiki · May 13, 2013

hoodjem said:
It's the culture.

Or maybe a way off that prison-island.

Or maybe the neighbourhood of sharks
That makes them fast torpedos as it also happens with SAF swimmers who almost exclusively run short distances

kiki · May 13, 2013

TMF said:
Yes, tennis and other sports are play more across the globe. As I've mentioned above...better marketing, more facilities, money driven, and of course greater number of athletes pursuing the game. Trying to argue sports in 70s is more global is like trying to argue the population in the 70s is greater than the present day.

Your list above prove nothing. Any generation has top players coming from certain countries(randomly), but that doesn't anything about the size of the pool.

The Celtics dominated basketball in the 60s just like the Australian dominated tennis. However, you put that Celtics of the 60s and compete against the NBA today, they win nothing.

Bird,Mc Hale,Parish and Walton is the greatest front line ever assembled
It happened in 86 and the team was Boston

mightyrick · May 13, 2013

kiki said:
Bird,Mc Hale,Parish and Walton is the greatest front line ever assembled
It happened in 86 and the team was Boston

I dunno. 95 Bulls were pretty good, too. Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Harper, Kerr.

kiki · May 13, 2013

I meant inside game
No team could have contained it and they played in the Golden Era of NBA when teams had great and decissive front courts
Houston had two of the most talented big men ever PLAYING TOGETHER that yr and got steamrolled by those Celtics Fab Four in the final play off
Houston had beaten the mighty LAL in semis and that LA team had Jabbar,Worthy, Lucas and AC Green in their front court

forzamilan90 · May 13, 2013

kiki said:
Bird,Mc Hale,Parish and Walton is the greatest front line ever assembled
It happened in 86 and the team was Boston

That frontline is incredible. Bird's the man, underrated too.

kiki · May 13, 2013

forzamilan90 said:
That frontline is incredible. Bird's the man, underrated too.

Bird is an aoll timer, but Mc Hale was the real factor as well as the year Bill Walton had...

forzamilan90 · May 13, 2013

kiki said:
Bird is an aoll timer, but Mc Hale was the real factor as well as the year Bill Walton had...

did you ever see Chamberlain play?

kiki · May 13, 2013

forzamilan90 said:
did you ever see Chamberlain play?

Hey man¡¡ I am not that old¡¡ ask Bobbyone

But I certainly saw the best ever english football team.1978-1980 Nottingham Forrest

BobbyOne · May 13, 2013

kiki said:
Hey man¡¡ I am not that old¡¡ ask Bobbyone

But I certainly saw the best ever english football team.1978-1980 Nottingham Forrest

kiki, I might be older than you (not much though) but I'm not an expert in basketball...

kiki · May 13, 2013

Shilton,Andersin,Burns,Mills,Jardine,Bowyer,Gray,Birtles,Francis,Woodcock and Robertson with Sir Brian Clough in the bench
Few teams have played a better football in history

TMF · May 14, 2013

kiki said:
Bird,Mc Hale,Parish and Walton is the greatest front line ever assembled
It happened in 86 and the team was Boston

You can argue the 87 Lakers are better than the Celtics because they beat them in the final with the same rosters.

Walton was a shadow of himself by the time he join the Celtics. His best years were in Portland and after that he suffered nagging injuries. He became a supporting role by playing backup center for Robert Parish. The only three trios that year was Bird, McHale and Parish.

kiki · May 14, 2013

TMF said:
You can argue the 87 Lakers are better than the Celtics because they beat them in the final with the same rosters.

Walton was a shadow of himself by the time he join the Celtics. His best years were in Portland and after that he suffered nagging injuries. He became a supporting role by playing backup center for Robert Parish. The only three trios that year was Bird, McHale and Parish.

The big red was instrumental in the 86 title.

His text book defense on Olajuwon carried the Celts to final victory

As I said, and I don´t think we will ever see such a front line, Mc Hale was the key.

Bird would keep on his numbers - all time great numbers-, Parish is one of the most underrated centers, but he was a superb player.Walton, well, when I think about post up moves, I just cannot think of any player better than hi.

Kevin would fight with a Barkley, a Cartwright, a Lucas, a Sampson ( much taller than him), a Bowie, Cooper,Nance,Carr,Vandenveghe and so on...he was just as much dependable on one side of the court as he was in the other.One of the greatest players to understand the concept of number 4.

..and Ainge,Dennis Johnson and Jerry Sichting added up a valuable back court.johnson and Ainge were terrific defenders and knew how to clutch up a match.

The 86 Celtics and the 85 Lakers are the greatest teams ever assembled in the NBA...and, still, I just cannot froget the Sixers with Cheeks, Toney,Erving,Mc Adoo and Mo Malone rounded up in the bench with guys like Bobby Jones,Chuck Barkley,Earl Cureton, Leo Rautins and Leon Wood...those were times...

BobbyOne · May 14, 2013

kiki said:
Hey man¡¡ I am not that old¡¡ ask Bobbyone

But I certainly saw the best ever english football team.1978-1980 Nottingham Forrest

kiki, A friend of mine has seen Chamberlain playing and told me that Wilt was probably the greatest rebounder, with a strong body, 7'1" high.

It is said that Chamberlain slept with 20 000 women...

In comparison, Nastase lived rather abstinently with his only 2500 women.

kiki · May 15, 2013

BobbyOne said:
kiki, A friend of mine has seen Chamberlain playing and told me that Wilt was probably the greatest rebounder, with a strong body, 7'1" high.

It is said that Chamberlain slept with 20 000 women...

In comparison, Nastase lived rather abstinently with his only 2500 women.

you old dirty mind¡¡¡

Vitas Gerulaitis ranks in the top tier as far as those records are concerned.

and the most important thing, remember, is if they didn´t fel asleep after the first five minutes...

BTW, never watched the great Chamberlin vs Russell duels...

BobbyOne · May 15, 2013

kiki said:
you old dirty mind¡¡¡

Vitas Gerulaitis ranks in the top tier as far as those records are concerned.

and the most important thing, remember, is if they didn´t fel asleep after the first five minutes...

BTW, never watched the great Chamberlin vs Russell duels...

kiki, I'm just reporting not doing...

hoodjem · May 15, 2013

forzamilan90 said:
did you ever see Chamberlain play?

Chamberlain ≈ Gonzales

Srinivas · Jun 25, 2015

Prisoner of Birth said:
In the Open Era :
Rosewall has 4 Grand Slams
Laver has 5 (including the calendar year Grand Slam)

Pro Slams :
Rosewall has 15
Laver has 8

So Rosewall has 19 Majors compared to Laver's 13.

It's obvious Rosewall is far more successful. And these are some ways in which he is statistically better :

Dominance - Rosewall won 9 consecutive Pro Slams that he participated in. Laver only ever managed 4 Pro Slams in a row and 4 Open Era Grand Slams in a row. His 4 in a row against amateurs isn't comparable.

Longevity - Rosewall won his first Major in 1957 and his last Major in 1972. That's 15 years apart. Laver won his first in 1964 and his last in 1969. Just 5 years apart.

Versatility - Rosewall has 5 Grasscourt Majors, 5 Claycourt Majors, 5 Indoorcourt Majors, 4 Woodcourt Majors. That's 5-5-5-4. Very balanced, showing he was a versatile player. Laver has 8 Grasscourt Majors, 1 Claycourt Major, 4 Indoorcourt Majors, 1 Woodcourt Major. That's 8-1-4-1. Very lopsided and grass/indoor heavy, showing he was more of a fastcourt player and not as versatile.

I think Rosewall is head and shoulders above Laver, in almost every way. I don't even see it as debatable, statistically.

During the course of time some players whose records are irrelevant are underrated and some players whose records still considered important are overrated that is the main difference between Overrated Laver and underrated Rosewall.

Srinivas · Jun 25, 2015

Rosewall won majors from 1953 to 1972
Laver won majors from 1960 to 1969
Gonzales won majors from 1948 to 1961
I don't understand why people overrate Laver.

KG1965 · Jun 25, 2015

Srinivas said:
Rosewall won majors from 1953 to 1972
Laver won majors from 1960 to 1969
Gonzales won majors from 1948 to 1961
I don't understand why people overrate Laver.

2 Grand Slam, only 2 GS !

Rosewall > Laver

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