Clay Court GOAT
- Thread starter timnz
- Start date
kiki
Banned
Wasn´t Bill Tilden who said Kozeluh may have been the greatest player he ever saw?
timnz, Thanks for mentioning the great Karel Kozeluh.
I believe that Cochet and Lacoste were a bit stronger on clay though.
Cochet as a pro was weaker than as an amateur.
You are right but I think Tilden erred.
Bobby - you are possibly right about Cochet and Lacoste - but do you have any direct evidence that that was the case? Tilden only dominated Kozeluh off clay. On clay it was a different story. Tilden played Cochet and Lacoste hard on clay when he was a amateur - their matches were very close. I know that is a far from perfect comparison.....but it suggests to me that Kozeluh wasn't any weaker on clay than the great Frenchmen.
timnz, I do know that amateur Tilden once won a match against Kozeluh on clay, probably in 1930. Therefore I think that Cochet and Lacoste were stronger than Karel on clay.
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Kozeluh
According to Tilden's own 1931 records of their tour together Tilden lead the clay head to head - Tilden 19, Kozeluh 11
I feel that is enough wins on Kozeluh's end to show he was competitive at the top end on clay. Tilden sometimes beat the frenchmen on clay in the late 20's as well.
Anyway, we will never know....though I wonder what Kozeluh's head to head on clay with Cochet was (in the Pro's) - as you say Cochet wasnt' as good in the Pro's - but why was that?
According to Tilden's own 1931 records of their tour together Tilden lead the clay head to head - Tilden 19, Kozeluh 11
I feel that is enough wins on Kozeluh's end to show he was competitive at the top end on clay. Tilden sometimes beat the frenchmen on clay in the late 20's as well.
Anyway, we will never know....though I wonder what Kozeluh's head to head on clay with Cochet was (in the Pro's) - as you say Cochet wasnt' as good in the Pro's - but why was that?
timnz, That 19:11 score also is a hint that the amateurs were (slightly) better than Kozeluh.
Cochet decreased because of his age. I believe as pros Cochet and Kozeluh did not meet too often.
borg number one
Legend
Pictures of Karel Kozeluh..
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Pictures of Karel Kozeluh..
borg number one, Thanks for these pictures. A great player.
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
kiki, It's time to put you on my ignore list. Calling Nüsslein a journeyman is a bad sacrilege. That guy was a steady No.3 or 4 for 7 years, beat Tilden about 200times, beat Vines in the 1934 US Pro and won the 1939 British Pro when Budge was in the draw! (He also gave Budge a fantastic battle at Wembley).
I would never call Jan Kodes a journeyman...
Kozeluh should be in your list.
kiki
Banned
Oh¡ It just slided...Nusslein had a good pro record.Not a journeyman.
of course, Kodes is the polar opposite to a journeyman....
kiki, It would be odd to have you on an ignore list...
kiki
Banned
Flash O'Groove
Hall of Fame
Interestingly, 25 out of 40 members of this list played before the open era.
Yes, but boyish opinions of some young posters make me both laughing and make me sad by their stubborness. A very strange year must have been 1983. ;-)
Flash, It should be a sign that tennis has not improved through the decades...
kiki
Banned
Gimeno above Kodes????
kiki
Banned
By 1983 good music was almost dying...
wasn´t that the year pope John Paul was shot down by a bulgarian?
forzamilan90
Legend
is this what you are referring to ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_Paul_II_assassination_attempt
kiki, Gimeno was awesome on clay. F.i. he was best claycourter in 1966 beating both Laver and Rosewall in the two big claycourt events of the pros. I rank him No. 7 together with Segura, both better than Kodes.
kiki
Banned
Check the records Gimeno vs Kodes.I heard Andres saying that, of all the top players he was facing, Kodes was the one he´d try to avoid.
Kodes won Madrid over a field that had Borg,Nastase,Vilas,Panatta and Orantes ALL AT THEIR PEAK, as well as guys such as Dibbs,Fibak,Ramirez,Fillol...
kiki
Banned
Thanks, that was it.Sorry for my mistake, it was 1981 and not 1983.I think Reagan also suffered the same year an attack from a Jodie Foster crazy fan ( I can admit one to be crazy, and hate reagan or both, but to be in love with Jodie Foster is out of my understanding)
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
1. Nadal
2. Borg
3. Rosewall
4. Wilding
5. Cochet
6. Lendl
7. Wilander
8. Lacoste
9. Kuerten
10. Laver
11. Borotra
12. Drobny
13. Vilas
14. Bruguera
15. Pietrangeli
16. Courier
17. Muster
18. Gimeno
19. Federer
20. Kodes
21. von Cramm
22. Santana
23. Nusslein
25. Nastase
26. Trabert
27. Orantes
28. Panatta
29. Kozeluh
30. Agassi
31. Connors
32. Tilden
33. Frank Parker
34. Roche
35. Sven Davidson
36. Jack Crawford
37. Segura
38. Fred Perry
39. J.E. Patty
40. Decugis
41. Emerson
2. Borg
3. Rosewall
4. Wilding
5. Cochet
6. Lendl
7. Wilander
8. Lacoste
9. Kuerten
10. Laver
11. Borotra
12. Drobny
13. Vilas
14. Bruguera
15. Pietrangeli
16. Courier
17. Muster
18. Gimeno
19. Federer
20. Kodes
21. von Cramm
22. Santana
23. Nusslein
25. Nastase
26. Trabert
27. Orantes
28. Panatta
29. Kozeluh
30. Agassi
31. Connors
32. Tilden
33. Frank Parker
34. Roche
35. Sven Davidson
36. Jack Crawford
37. Segura
38. Fred Perry
39. J.E. Patty
40. Decugis
41. Emerson
forzamilan90
Legend
Pretty sure the top 3 is settled. I don't see any other trio other than that. Nadal, Borg, Rosewall. Simple.
granddog29
Banned
Agreed and the order is settled too. Nadal clearly 1st, Borg clearly 2nd, Rosewall clearly 3rd.
There seems to be a notable absentee from your list.
Yes, the guy who OWNED Davidson and Trabert on clay, and had a 15 to 7 edge on Rosewall on clay in the fifties, and won the 1962 Italian clay tour against Segura, Trabert, Rosewall, Gimeno and others.
Does the name "Hoad" ring a bell?
Sorry to introduce a note of reality into the discussion.
Phoenix1983
G.O.A.T.
Yes, it appears next to the word "overrated" in the dictionary.
NatF
Bionic Poster
LOL well played.
kiki, Santana was a genius on the court but he was NOT a true top player: never in the top Five, only twice in the top Ten.
Nusslein & Kozeluh
I would vote for Kozeluh and Nusslein being swapped. Reason: Kozeluh had 10 major clay Pro championships (6 Bristol Cups, 1 World Pro at Deauville, 2 US Pro's on clay or Har-Tru and a French Pro) whereas Nusslein had 4 Major Pro championships on clay (World Pro Championships 1933, 1 US Pro & 2 French Pro's). I don't think there head to head is relevant at all (I dont' know what there head to head was) because Kozeluh was 15 years older. I do appreciate the competition in the Professional ranks was tougher in the 1930's than the 1920's (in the 20's Kozeluh won most of his Bristol Cups).
I would vote for Kozeluh and Nusslein being swapped. Reason: Kozeluh had 10 major clay Pro championships (6 Bristol Cups, 1 World Pro at Deauville, 2 US Pro's on clay or Har-Tru and a French Pro) whereas Nusslein had 4 Major Pro championships on clay (World Pro Championships 1933, 1 US Pro & 2 French Pro's). I don't think there head to head is relevant at all (I dont' know what there head to head was) because Kozeluh was 15 years older. I do appreciate the competition in the Professional ranks was tougher in the 1930's than the 1920's (in the 20's Kozeluh won most of his Bristol Cups).
timnz, I contradict.
Nüsslein won nine pro majors on clay: he also won the 1936 World Championships at Paris plus four times the British pro at Southport (1936 to 1939). But more important, Kozeluh was never the No. 1 on clay (I rank him No.3 for several years) while Nüsslein was possibly best claycourter in five or six years!
As you rightly write, the pro competition in the 1920s was weaker than in the 1930s.
Nüsslein had to deal with Budge, Vines, Tilden and Cochet; Kozeluh had to deal with Richards (not strong on clay) and Najuch...
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Probably
You are possibly right. (Though please could you list the 9 clay majors?) The Southport Pro was probably at least the equal of the Bristol Cup. That would put them on a even footing. However, I haven't seen a convincing argument that Kozeluh was a lesser player on clay than the French Amateur Players of the late 1920's. (Tilden lead him on clay in 1931 - but it was reasonably close - however Tilden, on ocassion, also beat the French players in the 1925-1930 period on clay). Hence Kozeluh possibly could have been the number 1 on clay during that period.
You are possibly right. (Though please could you list the 9 clay majors?) The Southport Pro was probably at least the equal of the Bristol Cup. That would put them on a even footing. However, I haven't seen a convincing argument that Kozeluh was a lesser player on clay than the French Amateur Players of the late 1920's. (Tilden lead him on clay in 1931 - but it was reasonably close - however Tilden, on ocassion, also beat the French players in the 1925-1930 period on clay). Hence Kozeluh possibly could have been the number 1 on clay during that period.
kiki
Banned
between 1963 and 1967, Santana was clearly having the second best record at ams slams behind Emerson.Maybe only Stolle could challenge that second place, but absolutely nobody else.I am talking about amateurs.
Who could beat Emerson at his peak on his own grass courts at a DC F like he did in 1965? and Newcombe?
Santana was a genius, but overall I think Gimeno was a tad better tennis player (I have talked about this very same topic, Santana vs Gimeno, with Spanish friends so many times, it was a kind of hot topic with sometimes strong defenders of each one).
I am not Spanish but I've lived in Spain many years in different periods and I understand and even speak Spanish quite well ( I believe
).
Who was better: Orantes, Gimeno or Santana? An Endless debate with Spanish friends....
I am not Spanish but I've lived in Spain many years in different periods and I understand and even speak Spanish quite well ( I believe
).Who was better: Orantes, Gimeno or Santana? An Endless debate with Spanish friends....
kiki
Banned
Santana was a genius, but overall I think Gimeno was a tad better tennis player (I have talked about this very same topic, Santana vs Gimeno, with Spanish friends so many times, it was a kind of hot topic with sometimes strong defenders of each one).
I am not Spanish but I've lived in Spain many years in different periods and I understand and even speak Spanish quite well ( I believe
Who was better: Orantes, Gimeno or Santana? An Endless debate with Spanish friends....
Orantes lived under the great shadwo of santana.he was a nice, shy, young prodigy who was almost beating Emerson at 18¡¡¡ and sincehe beat Santana in 1969 he took the torch.But it was a heavy burden, specially in DC play, which was the major competition in the eyes of the spanish press and fans.
I understood that Santana was jealous and never really helped him, while Gimeno, a genle guy, took Orantes under his wing when Orantes first turned pr
rantes came from the south of the country and very young moved to Barcelona and was adopted by a family and became a ball boy in his club.Same for Santana;another poor kid who was employeed as a ball picker .On the other hand, but Gimeno´s father was a tennis coach ( or a club´s employee I don´t remember properly right now) so he always lived as a youngster under a tennis atmosphere.At the end the historical rivalry between Madrid and Barcelona came also to tennis.Santana came from Madrid and Gimeno from Barcelona.orantes, and later Higueras, came from the south of Spain but they moved to Barcelona, which has always been the tennis capital of the country and, possibly, the city with the greatest private clubs in Europe ( at least not grass )
timnz,
World Championships 1933 and 1936, French Pro 37 and 38, US Pro 1934, British Pro 1936 to 1939.
I still refuse that Kozeluh was equal to Cochet and Lacoste in the 1920s.
I know that amateur Tilden defeated Kozeluh in an unofficial match in 1930.
Santana was a genius, but overall I think Gimeno was a tad better tennis player (I have talked about this very same topic, Santana vs Gimeno, with Spanish friends so many times, it was a kind of hot topic with sometimes strong defenders of each one).
I am not Spanish but I've lived in Spain many years in different periods and I understand and even speak Spanish quite well ( I believe
Who was better: Orantes, Gimeno or Santana? An Endless debate with Spanish friends....
mattennis, Gimeno was best claycourter in 1966, Santana was never the world's best claycourter. He probably would not have been able to beat prime Laver and Rosewall in a row on clay...
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Orantes lived under the great shadwo of santana.he was a nice, shy, young prodigy who was almost beating Emerson at 18¡¡¡ and sincehe beat Santana in 1969 he took the torch.But it was a heavy burden, specially in DC play, which was the major competition in the eyes of the spanish press and fans.
I understood that Santana was jealous and never really helped him, while Gimeno, a genle guy, took Orantes under his wing when Orantes first turned pr
At the end the historical rivalry between Madrid and Barcelona came also to tennis.Santana came from Madrid and Gimeno from Barcelona.orantes, and later Higueras, came from the south of Spain but they moved to Barcelona, which has always been the tennis capital of the country and, possibly, the city with the greatest private clubs in Europe ( at least not grass )
kiki, thanks for this background information.
Gimeno's father was a tennis coach. He played in the 1949 Wembley pro tournament.
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hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
1. Nadal
2. Borg
3. Rosewall
4. Wilding
5. Cochet
6. Lendl
7. Wilander
8. Lacoste
9. Kuerten
10. Laver
11. Borotra
12. Drobny
13. Vilas
14. Bruguera
15. Pietrangeli
16. Courier
17. Muster
18. Gimeno
19. Federer
20. Kodes
21. von Cramm
22. Kozeluh
23. Orantes
25. Nastase
26. Trabert
27. Santana
28. Panatta
29. Nusslein
30. Agassi
31. Connors
32. Tilden
33. Frank Parker
34. Roche
35. Sven Davidson
36. Jack Crawford
37. Segura
38. Fred Perry
39. J.E. Patty
40. Decugis
41. Hoad
42. Emerson
2. Borg
3. Rosewall
4. Wilding
5. Cochet
6. Lendl
7. Wilander
8. Lacoste
9. Kuerten
10. Laver
11. Borotra
12. Drobny
13. Vilas
14. Bruguera
15. Pietrangeli
16. Courier
17. Muster
18. Gimeno
19. Federer
20. Kodes
21. von Cramm
22. Kozeluh
23. Orantes
25. Nastase
26. Trabert
27. Santana
28. Panatta
29. Nusslein
30. Agassi
31. Connors
32. Tilden
33. Frank Parker
34. Roche
35. Sven Davidson
36. Jack Crawford
37. Segura
38. Fred Perry
39. J.E. Patty
40. Decugis
41. Hoad
42. Emerson
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hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
When was har-tru invented?
It seems that the first har-tru court was constructed in 1931, but courts of this type did not become widespread and popular until the 1940s.
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kiki
Banned
I love the cohesiveness of this ranking
Pietrangeli, 2 RG, at 15
Santana, 2 RG, 27
and whom did Santana beat in the TWO finals he won at RG?
oh¡¡ yes¡¡¡
Nice to see Hoad on the list.
To quote Toto Brugnon, the Musketeers and Tilden would have won only a few games against Hoad at Roland Garros.
And the greatest clay match ever?
Try 1957 The Hague final, a close marathon in five sets between Hoad and Rosewall.
