Does a shaped string really affect spin?
- Thread starter HunterST
- Start date
illuminotti
New User
YES. And I am speaking from experience.
cengland7211
New User
string one up with some Volkl Cyclone and see for yourself!
Say Chi Sin Lo
G.O.A.T.
I don't think so. Because whatever surface you have, they get flattened out after ~30minutes of hitting.
I'm a long time user of Head RIP Control, and the ripple/edges are rounded out after ~30minutes of hitting.
I'm a long time user of Head RIP Control, and the ripple/edges are rounded out after ~30minutes of hitting.
Roger Wawrinka
Professional
XFactorer
Hall of Fame
Anecdotes aren't evidence.
Prime someone to think that Cyclone gives more spin, and he'll perceive that he's getting more spin whether or not the data shows more RPMs or not. Marketing.
(And I play with Cyclone)
fgs
Hall of Fame
talking about shaped/structured polys i can confirm that generally they do produce some more spin than the regular round ones, but as with everything in life there also are exceptions.
first and foremost, the spin is still produced by your stroking mechanics. the string itself might add, again! restricting to polys!, max. 10% more rotation at the best!!! you get usually more spin by changing from a closed (18mains) pattern to an open pattern (16mains or probably even less with these new sticks that came out, of which i have so far played none!). therefore i dare say you get considerably more spin with a 16mains stick strung with a regular round poly than with a 18mains stick with a shaped one.
another issue already addressed is the wearing down of the shape. if you are not a stringbreaker you will find yourself with a initially shaped poly that has worn out after 3-5 hitting hours and still plenty to go without the spin support you are expecting.
first and foremost, the spin is still produced by your stroking mechanics. the string itself might add, again! restricting to polys!, max. 10% more rotation at the best!!! you get usually more spin by changing from a closed (18mains) pattern to an open pattern (16mains or probably even less with these new sticks that came out, of which i have so far played none!). therefore i dare say you get considerably more spin with a 16mains stick strung with a regular round poly than with a 18mains stick with a shaped one.
another issue already addressed is the wearing down of the shape. if you are not a stringbreaker you will find yourself with a initially shaped poly that has worn out after 3-5 hitting hours and still plenty to go without the spin support you are expecting.
MikeHitsHard93
Hall of Fame
When I switched mid-match from full multi to full poly, my opponent (later on) commented on the dramatic increase in spin. I don't believe in snap-back, but I do believe in higher coefficient of friction and string pocketing!
Not marketing at all.
ChicagoJack
Hall of Fame
Hi Hunter -
Cool. Somebody asking for real evidence around here, that's refreshing. Yes there is real evidence. But the answer is sometimes string texture matters with regards to spin production, and sometimes matters not. The answer depends on whether or not the mains are sliding and snapping back. I'll provide a quickie explanation. See links below for more detail.
1. There are two kinds of friction at play here. There is ball -> string friction ie, ball "bite", and there is string -> string friction. What you want for spin is high ball-string friction, and low inter-string friction.
2. However, if the mains are not sliding and snapping back, then ball to string friction makes no difference with regard to optimizing spin production. That's because balls decompress to about 40-60% of the original volume upon impact, and the typical impact angles in tennis strokes. What this means, is that every time you hit the ball, the ball bites the string bed by a factor of 100%. The ball comes to a complete stop upon impact, and the friction forces go to dead nuts zero every time. In the sport of Table Tennis however, where the ball does not compress, the bat does not flex appreciably, there are rules stipulating the thickness of rubbers, and the contact angles are much more extreme, ball bite is of tantamount importance, and sticky, tacky rubbers are the revolutionary game changer. In the sport of tennis, the racquet flexes, the ball compresses, the string bed deflects. Hi speed video even reveals the ball ball wrinkles and bunches up, and starts to pour through the string bed like waffle batter! Getting the ball to "bite" is not something to be obtained by careful string or racquet selection, it's going to happen no matter what.
3. Impacts occur within time frames of 3-6 milliseconds. If the mains are sliding and snapping back, then shaped or textured strings are of incremental value, in the last fractional milliseconds as the ball exits the string bed, as it must "re-bite" so to speak. See Quote 4.
Quote 1: Friction is important to spin, but not in the sense that most people think it is. In the past, two assumptions were the foundation for the conventional wisdom that (1) a rough string surface creates more spin by increasing the string's bite, grab and push on the ball, and (2) that inter-string motion would lessen that grabbing and thus should be minimized. So, to gain maximum spin, the goal was to use a string with both a high ball-string friction and a high string-string friction to create a rigid surface parallel to the stringbed. As so formulated, both of these assumptions have proven incorrect.
-- http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/COF.php
Quote 2 : String manufacturers have always marketed tennis strings according to their ability to grip the ball via sticky coatings, rough/grabby surfaces, or "biting" shapes. The underlying theory is that greater friction between the string and the ball will cause more spin. This was universally accepted as true until it was demonstrated that for all impacts less than 50 degrees away from perpendicular, the strings will bite the ball to the maximum extent possible, no matter the texture, shape, or material of the string. This is important because when biting occurs, friction ceases. This result assumes that the stringbed is laterally rigid — i.e., the strings do not move sideways, or, if they do, they do not snap back into position. This was the situation in the pre-polyester string days. As we will see below, polyester changed everything.
-- http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/stringballfriction.php
Quote 3: String-To-String Friction (Static) If the strings don't move sideways, all strings produce about the same spin. If they do move, it is the movement and stretching of the mains that determines the different spin outcomes between string types. And whether or not the strings move is in part determined by the magnitude of the friction between strings — the lower the static friction, the easier it is to initiate string movement, and the lower the sliding friction, the easier it is to maintain the string's movement. The result is greater spin (assuming the strings snap back while the ball is still on them).
-- http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/COF.php
Quote 4: "In summary, the ball impacts, slides, bites and friction ceases. As the ball slides, it also pushes the main string in the direction of its motion. It will push the string farther and store more energy the more friction there is between the ball and the string and the less friction there is between the strings. Upon snapback, the string begins to slide against the ball in the opposite direction, reactivating the friction force. At this point, the greater the friction between ball and string, the more the ball will be slowed parallel to the the stringbed, the spin will be increased, and the angle of rebound will be increased. That being the case, the greatest spin should be generated from strings with high string-to-ball friction and low string-to-string friction. Do such strings exist? Yes. The way to find these strings is to look up the strings in Table 2 with the String Friction Tool."
-- http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/stringballfriction.php
[..]
Links:
Spin and String Movement
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/stringmovement.php
Spin and Material
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/spinexperiment.php
Spin and Static Friction
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/COF.php
Spin and Sliding Friction
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/slidingCOF.php
Spin and String Pattern
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/spinexperiment.php
Spin and String Snap-back
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/stringmovementPart2.php
Spin and String Stiffness
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/spinandstiffness.php
Spin and String Lubrication
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/spinandlube.php
Spin and Impact Location
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/location.php
String Friction Tool
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/COFreporter.php
-Jack
Last edited:
BLX_Andy
Professional
Same here. RPM Blast and 4G Rough rounded out after a few days of hitting :???:
djNEiGht
Legend
Chicago had that ready at the hip...
In my recreational experience, I see more fuzz ripped off the ball with textured strings and get a bit more kick on the ball. I find myself hitting with higher trajectory too or the ball sits up for the opponent.
Smooth strings I get a bit more power though. Sometimes the same amount of spin if my RHS is fast that day.
In my recreational experience, I see more fuzz ripped off the ball with textured strings and get a bit more kick on the ball. I find myself hitting with higher trajectory too or the ball sits up for the opponent.
Smooth strings I get a bit more power though. Sometimes the same amount of spin if my RHS is fast that day.
I always doubted that string shapes really affect spin, but after trying out Volkl V-Torque, I changed my mind.
The shape of V-Torque (hollowed out sides) reduces the friction between the strings and really allows the strings to slide and snap to enhance spin.
Because of the enhanced slipperiness it is also easier to string.
The shape of V-Torque (hollowed out sides) reduces the friction between the strings and really allows the strings to slide and snap to enhance spin.
Because of the enhanced slipperiness it is also easier to string.
The short answer-- Not really. What I have found is that textured strings produce a slightly different launch angle. I have also found that textured strings often produce a launch angle that is much more inconsistent than round strings. In other words the launch angle can vary dramatically depending upon racquet head speed.
What that means is that if you are hitting the ball the same every time in a baseline rally, you might get some extra spin from the textured string for a few minutes until the edges get knocked off in the area of the stringbed where you make contact. Typically about 15 minutes. This makes it worse, because if you hit outside that rounded area, the launch angle is different.
Your confidence in being able to swing freely is what dictates the amount of spin that you create. If a string produces a consistent launch angle that varies in a predictable way based on your racquet head speed and swing path, you will produce more spin because of your confidence in hitting out.
I have found that the friction in the crosses is the single most important factor in producing spin after confidence in the launch angle.
YMMV.
What that means is that if you are hitting the ball the same every time in a baseline rally, you might get some extra spin from the textured string for a few minutes until the edges get knocked off in the area of the stringbed where you make contact. Typically about 15 minutes. This makes it worse, because if you hit outside that rounded area, the launch angle is different.
Your confidence in being able to swing freely is what dictates the amount of spin that you create. If a string produces a consistent launch angle that varies in a predictable way based on your racquet head speed and swing path, you will produce more spin because of your confidence in hitting out.
I have found that the friction in the crosses is the single most important factor in producing spin after confidence in the launch angle.
YMMV.
Ennismt
Rookie
Read C-Jacks post for the current science. My experience is that shape helps with spin. Like the science results, strings that have and hold shape and have low friction are best - Tour Bite has amazing spin.
The shaped strings I have tried all have excellent spin and more spin than the round strings I have tried when fresh. Factors that have eventually detracted from spin provided are loss of shape and increased friction between strings that is expedited by the shape. Soft, shaped strings seem particularly quick to lose their advantage since the ones I have tried lost shape or notched. This is all anecdotal.
To get spin that lasts, I am messing around with poly hybrids of shaped/textured mains and smooth, low friction crosses. Fortunately I already have a bunch of string and my own stringer.
The shaped strings I have tried all have excellent spin and more spin than the round strings I have tried when fresh. Factors that have eventually detracted from spin provided are loss of shape and increased friction between strings that is expedited by the shape. Soft, shaped strings seem particularly quick to lose their advantage since the ones I have tried lost shape or notched. This is all anecdotal.
To get spin that lasts, I am messing around with poly hybrids of shaped/textured mains and smooth, low friction crosses. Fortunately I already have a bunch of string and my own stringer.
oest10
Semi-Pro
The sharp edges round within a few hits, yes. But shaped strings are all about maximising the area of contact, hence the better ballbite. Even after the sharpness of the edges is gone the essential shape is still there( think RPM Blast, is has rounded "edges" to start with), and seeing that the ball kind of curves around and into the "dents" in the string surface, there still is the better ball bite.
I'm not saying it is a major influence, as I have played structured polys but now play Yonex PTP, but it's very simply true that there's better bite. Whether or not you can utilize it to the full extent is down to your technique.
I'm not saying it is a major influence, as I have played structured polys but now play Yonex PTP, but it's very simply true that there's better bite. Whether or not you can utilize it to the full extent is down to your technique.
fgs
Hall of Fame
kyhacker,
how do you come to the conclusion that while shaped strings get worn off and change their profile, round strings are immune to this sort of abrasion in the contact zone?
i currently have a round string in my sticks and i can tell you that the mains are pretty oval after one hour of hitting (besides the notching obviously!).
how do you come to the conclusion that while shaped strings get worn off and change their profile, round strings are immune to this sort of abrasion in the contact zone?
i currently have a round string in my sticks and i can tell you that the mains are pretty oval after one hour of hitting (besides the notching obviously!).
STBite16 at 47 lbs seems to retain it's shape even after 40 hours of play, the sharp edges still there, even at the sweetspot.
However, upon switching to some older rackets with round strings, once you hit for 20 minutes, your play is about the same.
Talking rackets with LuxBB Lite 16 and Dunlop Ice17, and Prince TourneyNylon 15.
If it works IN YOUR MIND, it is indeed, working.
However, upon switching to some older rackets with round strings, once you hit for 20 minutes, your play is about the same.
Talking rackets with LuxBB Lite 16 and Dunlop Ice17, and Prince TourneyNylon 15.
If it works IN YOUR MIND, it is indeed, working.
Most spin is whatever string that allows you to generate the most racquet head speed. For some, shaped is it because of the psychology of feeling that the shape must induce more spin.
But, in reality, racquet head speed is THE end all/be all of generating spin. If you don't have confidence that the ball will go where you want, you will not generate as much spin because you will never commit to maximum racquet head speed.
It is for that reason that I have found round strings to be better. Over the course of 10-15 hours, the predictability is just much better than a shaped string. If I could restring every 8 games like the pros do, I would choose a shaped string every time.
But, in reality, racquet head speed is THE end all/be all of generating spin. If you don't have confidence that the ball will go where you want, you will not generate as much spin because you will never commit to maximum racquet head speed.
It is for that reason that I have found round strings to be better. Over the course of 10-15 hours, the predictability is just much better than a shaped string. If I could restring every 8 games like the pros do, I would choose a shaped string every time.
Hi I'm Ray
Professional
Some shaped strings like Focus Hex & BHB7 wear down quickly, others like Tour Bite & Signum Hextreme keep their shape for a very long time.
