Murray's ranking points: a question?

Mainad · Feb 17, 2014

Murray is down to #7 this week after failing to progress beyond the quarters in Rotterdam. Okay, fair enough.

But why has he not been awarded the 90 points you get for playing the quarter-final in a 500 tournament? He has had nothing to defend this month (he didn't play anywhere in February last year) but his ranking points have stayed unchanged at 4795 which is what they have been since the AO. Shouldn't he now be on 4885?

Anyone know why? Thanks in advance.

batz · Feb 17, 2014

Mainad said:
Murray is down to #7 this week after failing to progress beyond the quarters in Rotterdam. Okay, fair enough.

But why has he not been awarded the 90 points you get for playing the quarter-final in a 500 tournament? He has had nothing to defend this month (he didn't play anywhere in February last year) but his ranking points have stayed unchanged at 4795 which is what they have been since the AO. Shouldn't he now be on 4885?

Anyone know why? Thanks in advance.

He has been awarded the 90 points from Rotterdam - but his MC points have dropped off with an overall zero net effect.

I think he may be getting hit with 'zero pointers' for not playing enough 500 events last year - that would explain why Washington, Basel and Tokyo are all appearing as 'countable' but his 90 MC points are 'non-countable'

He essentially has scope to extend his ranking points total by up to 1900 points via ATP 500 events by the end of the year (assuming he entered and won 4 of them).

Mainad · Feb 17, 2014

batz said:
He has been awarded the 90 points from Rotterdam - but his MC points have dropped off with an overall zero net effect.

I think he may be getting hit with 'zero pointers' for not playing enough 500 events last year - that would explain why Washington, Basel and Tokyo are all appearing as 'countable' but his 90 MC points are 'non-countable'

He essentially has scope to extend his ranking points total by up to 1900 points via ATP 500 events by the end of the year (assuming he entered and won 4 of them).

Well, he didn't play any 500 events last year as he took February off and he was off tour following his surgery for the autumn events. So I guess I see your point. Thanks.

Not sure why you mention Washington and Basel. He's never played either of them has he?

Flint · Feb 17, 2014

Sorry, but what do you mean by he will be getting "zero pointers" for not playing any 500's last year.

If he didn't play any tournaments last feburary where has he lost the other 90 points from that cancels out his rotterdam 90?

Blinkism · Feb 17, 2014

Nothing's going right for the ol' Ostrich of Dunblane, is it?

No worries, chaps - IW-Miami double is ripe for the taking for the Muzz.

clayqueen · Feb 17, 2014

Maybe Murray would have fancied the 2 year ranking system. Lol

The_Begum_of_Bhopal · Feb 17, 2014

what will it take for Murray to get back in the top four in terms of rankings

batz · Feb 17, 2014

Mainad said:
Well, he didn't play any 500 events last year as he took February off and he was off tour following his surgery for the autumn events. So I guess I see your point. Thanks.

Not sure why you mention Washington and Basel. He's never played either of them has he?

He's been slated to play both and withdrew. They are both currently listed as 'zero pointers' in his ranking calculation.

batz · Feb 17, 2014

Blinkism said:
Nothing's going right for the ol' Ostrich of Dunblane, is it?

No worries, chaps - IW-Miami double is ripe for the taking for the Muzz.

You don't see him for 18 months while Murray wins OG, USO and The Big One. Murray gets injured, and up he pops to gloat.

Stay classy Blinky.

batz · Feb 17, 2014

Flint said:
Sorry, but what do you mean by he will be getting "zero pointers" for not playing any 500's last year.

If he didn't play any tournaments last feburary where has he lost the other 90 points from that cancels out his rotterdam 90?

'Zero pointers' are 12 month ranking point penalties imposed by the ATP if a player is a multiple offender for late withdrawals (with late being any time in the 6 week period leading up to the start of the event).

One or more of player's possible ranking point slots are taken up by the penalty(ies). Murray's ranking is made up of, among other things, his best 5 performances at ATP 500 events and Monte Carlo. At the moment 3 of those 'best 5' slots are being taken up by 'zero pointers' - hence last year's Monte Carlo points appearing as non-countable - Murray is only allowed to use 2 of his 'best 5' 500 slots until the zero pointers 'fall off'.

batz · Feb 17, 2014

The_Begum_of_Bhopal said:
what will it take for Murray to get back in the top four in terms of rankings

Win Acapulco, defend his IW/Miami points (or at least come close) - make a few semis on clay.

The_Begum_of_Bhopal · Feb 17, 2014

batz said:
Win Acapulco, defend his IW/Miami points (or at least come close) - make a few semis on clay.

I think the key tournament could be the French open, if he can make it to the semis he should be able to get right back up the rankings

m2nk2 · Feb 17, 2014

It's fine, he was tanking the entire clay season last year so he's got loads of point to collect from there.

batz · Feb 17, 2014

m2nk2 said:
It's fine, he was tanking the entire clay season last year so he's got loads of point to collect from there.

Murray has back surgery and you're still riding that line like Seabiscuit?

Ignore the cortisone injections, ignore the back surgery, he was tanking ah tells ya!:shock:

Russeljones · Feb 17, 2014

The_Begum_of_Bhopal said:
I think the key tournament could be the French open, if he can make it to the semis he should be able to get right back up the rankings

This, and not only this year. He can gain a lot of points by making RG QF or better, which I think his camp should be pushing for.

batz · Feb 17, 2014

Russeljones said:
This, and not only this year. He can gain a lot of points by making RG QF or better, which I think his camp should be pushing for.

FWIW Russel - he has made it known that making the final of RG is one of his main goals for the season. Lendl thinks he can compete on the surface if he's not in pain.

Make of that what you will.

Russeljones · Feb 17, 2014

batz said:
FWIW Russel - he has made it known that making the final of RG is one of his main goals for the season. Lendl thinks he can compete on the surface if he's not in pain.

Make of that what you will.

Don't Murray's early years indicate that he should be a force to contend with on clay? I have no idea why that hasn't materialized.

Mainad · Feb 17, 2014

Russeljones said:
Don't Murray's early years indicate that he should be a force to contend with on clay? I have no idea why that hasn't materialized.

Me neither. IMO I think he just focussed his best efforts on hardcourt and grass in his early years and tended to be a bit neglectful of clay, a surface that didn't suit his game as easily as the other two. Maybe he thought he would be able to catch up on it later at some point. The fact that he found it harder on his back obviously didn't help.

I'm surprised he didn't enter a few of the smaller clay events a bit more often, especially the 250s and nab a few clay titles that way. It might have given him the experience and confidence he needed to go deeper in the bigger clay events.

batz · Feb 17, 2014

Russeljones said:
Don't Murray's early years indicate that he should be a force to contend with on clay? I have no idea why that hasn't materialized.

He won a few clay futures. He really only spent about 20 months training seriously on the surface from the age of 15-17.

He has to think about his movement on clay in a way that he doesn't on grass and hards. This can be overcome by spending a lot of time practising on the surface - but that cost him the health of his back last year when he tried to do just that.

I'm hopelessly biased of course but I think he might yet do some damage on clay before he retires - if the back surgery has been successful.

Russeljones · Feb 17, 2014

batz said:
He won a few clay futures. He really only spent about 20 months training seriously on the surface from the age of 15-17.

He has to think about his movement on clay in a way that he doesn't on grass and hards. This can be overcome by spending a lot of time practising on the surface - but that cost him the health of his back last year when he tried to do just that.

I'm hopelessly biased of course but I think he might yet do some damage on clay before he retires - if the back surgery has been successful.

Well I didn't think he'd win Wimbledon, so there's every hope he can still shock us at RG

Mainad · Feb 17, 2014

Russeljones said:
Well I didn't think he'd win Wimbledon, so there's every hope he can still shock us at RG

I agree. Look at Djokovic. He never won a grasscourt title in his life until he won Wimbledon and he hasn't won any since! Plus there's much more scope for winning a clay tournament than there is on grass. So, however unlikely it may seem, it's obviously not impossible to win your first title on a surface at a Slam. Never say never! :wink:

Russeljones · Feb 17, 2014

Mainad said:
I agree. Look at Djokovic. He never won a grasscourt title in his life until he won Wimbledon and he hasn't won any since! Plus there's much more scope for winning a clay tournament than there is on grass. So, however unlikely it may seem, it's obviously not impossible to win your first title on a surface at a Slam. Never say never! :wink:

Novak would be mediocre on 2007 grass. He benefited from some planet alignment for sure, to win his Wimbledon title. I don't know what Murray needs to change. Movement is not something you can really learn.

Sid_Vicious · Feb 17, 2014

Russeljones said:
Novak would be mediocre on 2007 grass. He benefited from some planet alignment for sure, to win his Wimbledon title. I don't know what Murray needs to change. Movement is not something you can really learn.

What do you mean by "mediocre on 2007 grass"

? The grass wasn't different or anything in 2007. And Djokovic was hardly mediocre even then. He reached the SF at Wimbledon 2007 and lost to Nadal.

As for 2011, I didn't see it as fluke. He put up very impressive performances in the SF and Final rounds to win the event. Defeating the defending champion to win Wimbledon is the best possible way of doing it.

Russeljones · Feb 17, 2014

Sid_Vicious said:
What do you mean by "mediocre on 2007 grass" ? The grass wasn't different or anything in 2007. And Djokovic was hardly mediocre even then. He reached the SF at Wimbledon 2007 and lost to Nadal.

As for 2011, I didn't see it as fluke. He put up very impressive performances in the SF and Final rounds to win the event. Defeating the defending champion to win Wimbledon is the best possible way of doing it.

The grass wasn't 100% rye in 2007. He is remains a suspect mover on grass.

The_Begum_of_Bhopal · Feb 17, 2014

The problem for Murray on clay is that his groundstrokes are inherently ineffective on clay

Mainad · Feb 17, 2014

The_Begum_of_Bhopal said:
The problem for Murray on clay is that his groundstrokes are inherently ineffective on clay

Not always. In 2011 he pushed both Nadal and Djokovic, the top 2 clay courters in the world, in 3 set semi-finals in MC and Rome and went on to make the semis of RG. IMO it's mainly his movement that most often lets him down when playing on clay.

underground · Feb 17, 2014

A player must play at least 4 500 tournaments, if not then 0-point penalties will replace them and are countable until they are taken off.

0-point penalties will be placed at the latest possible times you can play a 500 event. So the latest in the calendar year is Basel, you can't play Valencia at the same time so they put the next one before that (Beijing), and then Washington.

Blinkism · Feb 24, 2014

batz said:
You don't see him for 18 months while Murray wins OG, USO and The Big One. Murray gets injured, and up he pops to gloat.

Stay classy Blinky.

I feel like I've covered at least one of those bases with a vague and, perhaps, begrudging congratulations in regards to the US Open win, but I may be mistaken.

Then again, there's no fun in kicking a man when he's up, is there?

[For the record, I'm glad Murray's feeling better now and back on tour. I only wish him embarrassing losses at the hands of his greatest foes, not by the misfortune of injury.]

Vensai · Feb 24, 2014

His withdrawals cost him points.

mawashi · Feb 24, 2014

Murray is probably the most negative player out there. His problems start and end in the head.

He has all the technique, physic, talent to do well yet...

Hungrier players like Dolgo, Dimi, Delpo and Gubis will push him out of the top 10, hopefully.

Mainad · Feb 24, 2014

mawashi said:
Murray is probably the most negative player out there. His problems start and end in the head.

He has all the technique, physic, talent to do well yet...

...and yet what? Are you trying to say he hasn't done well or something? Where exactly have you been the last 18 months? Have you actually been following any tennis?

mawashi said:
Hungrier players like Dolgo, Dimi, Delpo and Gubis will push him out of the top 10, hopefully.

In what precise way have any of those players been hungrier than Murray? What better results have they achieved to prove this apparently superior hunger of their's?

mawashi · Feb 24, 2014

Mainad said:
...and yet what? Are you trying to say he hasn't done well or something? Where exactly have you been the last 18 months? Have you actually been following any tennis?

In what precise way have any of those players been hungrier than Murray? What better results have they achieved to prove this apparently superior hunger of their's?

Please 1 wimby doesn't make him special. Compared to Nole, Nadal, Fed his achievements at the major are like a broken record.

In what way? These other players are finally getting their act together Murray isn't.

Injury aside, Murry is one of the most negative player out there, I'll go ahead and say that he'll be knocked out of the top 10 soon.

Mainad · Feb 24, 2014

mawashi said:
Please 1 wimby doesn't make him special. Compared to Nole, Nadal, Fed his achievements at the major are like a broken record.

Please yourself. What do you mean by just '1 Wimby' ? What about the US Open and the Olympic Gold Medal? His achievements at the Majors may not YET equal those other 3 but they are light years ahead of any other of those players you seem to think are so special. None of them can hold a candle to the achievements Murray has posted in the last decade and you are just being plain ignorant if you think thsy do.

mawashi said:
In what way? These other players are finally getting their act together Murray isn't.

Like most Murray haters on here you clearly no nothing whatsover about him or his career do you? In what way are players like Delpo and Dimitrov and Dolgo getting their act together? What results have they posted at the Majors lately and tell me in what way they compare to Murray's? Being clearly ignorant of anything about Murray, you don't seem to be aware that he has been slowly recovering from back surgery these last few months, has been struggling to get back into form and yet he still managed to make the quarter-finals of the first Major of the season which was exactly he same as fully-fit Djokovic! How far exactly did these other players you admire so much get to at the Australian Open? Pretty nearly nowhere, that's where. And they're getting their act together and Murray isn't? Don't make me laugh!

mawashi said:
Injury aside, Murry is one of the most negative player out there

If he were that negative, he couldn't have got the results he has achieved could he? Give me one example of any other 'negative' player who has won as much as he has? He has done incomparably better than most of the players you presumably like to think of as 'positive'. Like all Murray haters, you think just because you dislike him he must be a bad player. But the two don't necessarily follow at all. You need to learn and understand this.

mawashi said:
I'll go ahead and say that he'll be knocked out of the top 10 soon.

You can go ahead and say what you like. I and many others on here will be fervently hoping you don't get your wish. And even if that did happen, he would still be 10 times the player of the Delpos, Dolgos, Dimis and other would-be-hopefuls who can, as yet, only dream of the kind of results Murray has been achieving over the last few years!

mawashi · Feb 24, 2014

Of course you're hoping for him to do well, you're a Brit. Who else do you have to root for?

He's got 3 big ones, big whoop. Nadal, Fed, Nole got 3 in 1 year.

I don't hate him I hate his game and on court persona.

10x, haha let's c about that unless he wins 10x majors vs delpo's one he's isn't that much better.

Good, Yes. Great no!

Mainad · Feb 24, 2014

mawashi said:
Of course you're hoping for him to do well, you're a Brit. Who else do you have to root for?

What's that got to do with it? He doesn't only have British supporters.

mawashi said:
He's got 3 big ones, big whoop. Nadal, Fed, Nole got 3 in 1 year.

And exactly how many big ones have any of the rest of the top 10 got? You know, those players you think are worthy of more respect than Murray? Because if you think that no player is worthy of any respect who hasn't achieved what Nadal, Federer and Djokovic have achieved, then that's a hell of a lot of players out there you're not going to be able to respect. But at least Murray has come a lot closer to them than anybody else you care to name!

mawashi said:
I don't hate him I hate his game and on court persona.

Pretty much the same. The outcome is that you disrespect him and his game and are therefore hopelessly biased and irrational when trying to compare him to other players and acknowledge his achievements. Until you learn to do this, whatever your personal likes or dislikes, it will never be possible to have a rational and sensible discussion with you about him.

mawashi said:
10x, haha let's c about that unless he wins 10x majors vs delpo's one he's isn't that much better.

I think 2 Majors, 1 Gold Medal and 9 Masters tournaments pretty much makes him 10x better. After all, how many Masters tournaments has Delpo won? How many other Major finals has he even played in apart from the 2009 USO?

mawashi · Feb 25, 2014

Mainad said:
What's that got to do with it? He doesn't only have British supporters.

And exactly how many big ones have any of the rest of the top 10 got? You know, those players you think are worthy of more respect than Murray? Because if you think that no player is worthy of any respect who hasn't achieved what Nadal, Federer and Djokovic have achieved, then that's a hell of a lot of players out there you're not going to be able to respect. But at least Murray has come a lot closer to them than anybody else you care to name!

Pretty much the same. The outcome is that you disrespect him and his game and are therefore hopelessly biased and irrational when trying to compare him to other players and acknowledge his achievements. Until you learn to do this, whatever your personal likes or dislikes, it will never be possible to have a rational and sensible discussion with you about him.

I think 2 Majors, 1 Gold Medal and 9 Masters tournaments pretty much makes him 10x better. After all, how many Masters tournaments has Delpo won? How many other Major finals has he even played in apart from the 2009 USO?

Well aren't you an overzealous, biased fan girl?

A master is 1000 points a major 2000, do the math 10x really?

You forgot Delpo hurt his wrist soon after his USOpen, his 2010 season was pretty much over? Till today his wrist is still an issue yet he barely makes a peep about it.

You're confusing disrespect with dislike. I never once said he doesn't deserve the respect for his win however, after Wimby the british press made it out like he deserves a knighthood for that?

I get that it feels like the stone age since any brit won the title but a knighthood? Should Nadal, Fed or Nole be saints then... get a grip.

I don't like his game, I don't like his persona and I'll gladly root for almost anyone else other then Tomic but the facts are the other guys are doing the right things to catch up and results/points are facts not fiction.

Gubis and the Dog deserve more derision then praise especially considering the talent they have. But finally they are starting to do the right things.

I'm not going to tell you I like British food cus I don't but, I like guinness.

Murray's got great talent & skill is but the rest of the package kidda ruins the experience.

It's like washing down soggy chips with a good ale, a waste of good ale.

Russeljones · Feb 25, 2014

This guy is a terrible troll. We're done with the "Hopeless two-slam wonder Murray storyline". Concentrate on his hair, teeth, family members etc. Be original!

mawashi · Feb 25, 2014

Russeljones said:
This guy is a terrible troll. We're done with the "Hopeless two-slam wonder Murray storyline". Concentrate on his hair, teeth, family members etc. Be original!

So says the guy who describes everthing in football lingo and call Fabrice Santoro a freak. At least I don't resort to juvenile name calling or shaming of family members.

*Sparkle* · Feb 25, 2014

mawashi said:
Well aren't you an overzealous, biased fan girl?

Do you not see the irony of complaining obsessively about a player being negative, when you are being so obsessively negative about someone who has achieved great things?

Better to obsess about the players you like, than the ones you don't.

mawashi · Feb 25, 2014

*Sparkle* said:
Do you not see the irony of complaining obsessively about a player being negative, when you are being so obsessively negative about someone who has achieved great things?

Better to obsess about the players you like, than the ones you don't.

Best post in this whole Negative thread lol!

Btw I don't obsess about even players I like...

heninfan99 · Feb 25, 2014

You'd hope there would be some wiggle room if the cancellations are due to legitimate illness, injury or operations.

Mainad · Feb 25, 2014

mawashi said:
Well aren't you an overzealous, biased fan girl?

Call me what you like, although I'm probably a bit long in the tooth these days to be termed a 'girl'. Not even the right sex either, but heyho. I joined this forum to defend Murray against unfair criticism and trolls like you. I will continue to do so. lf that upsets you, you shouldn't have invaded this thread to post your weirdly negative thoughts about someone you have the cheek to accuse of being negative!

mawashi said:
A master is 1000 points a major 2000, do the math 10x really?

Oh I see, you can do sums can you? Well, if we're only counting Slams and nothing else matters in your strange, contradictory little world, how about this for a bit of 'math' or whatever you call it. Murray has won TWO Slams and Del Potro has won ONE, so perhaps that makes Murray TWICE as good as Del Potro, the player who is currently achieving better results, apparently!

mawashi said:
You forgot Delpo hurt his wrist soon after his USOpen, his 2010 season was pretty much over? Till today his wrist is still an issue yet he barely makes a peep about it.

You steaming great hypocrite! So it's okay to excuse Del Potro for his wrist injury but just ignore Murray's back problems which were bad enough to cause him to have surgery? You are so laughably biased, it's becoming really funny!

mawashi said:
You're confusing disrespect with dislike. I never once said he doesn't deserve the respect for his win however, after Wimby the british press made it out like he deserves a knighthood for that?

What's it got to do with you the way the British public or press feel about Murray's Wimby win? When Djokovic won Wimbledon, the Serbian press wanted him to become the next President of Serbia! So what??

mawashi said:
I get that it feels like the stone age since any brit won the title but a knighthood? Should Nadal, Fed or Nole be saints then... get a grip.

See above and the only one who's lost the plot and needs to get a grip is you!

mawashi said:
I don't like his game, I don't like his persona and I'll gladly root for almost anyone else other then Tomic but the facts are the other guys are doing the right things to catch up and results/points are facts not fiction.

You don't like him? Really? Well, why didn't you say so? None of us could possibly have guessed!

mawashi said:
Gubis and the Dog deserve more derision then praise especially considering the talent they have. But finally they are starting to do the right things.

And I ask you yet again. What 'right' things have they been doing lately in comparison to Murray? Are you going to answer this time or just ignore the question as usual so you can go off on one of your silly anti-Murray tirades?

mawashi said:
I'm not going to tell you I like British food cus I don't but, I like guinness.

I don't give a rat's *** whether you like British food or not. To coin an appropriate British saying, "What's that got to do with the price of fish"?

mawashi said:
Murray's got great talent & skill is but the rest of the package kidda ruins the experience.

Well, here's some kindly advice. If you can't stand watching him, turn your telly off and go and read a nice book or something. That is if you actually have one to read!

mawashi said:
It's like washing down soggy chips with a good ale, a waste of good ale.

Personally, I like soggy chips and good ale. But neither of them are a fraction of the waste of good time it's been to have to listen to your silly rants and personal issues about one particular tennis player. Why don't you try counselling?

Mainad · Feb 25, 2014

mawashi said:
Best post in this whole Negative thread lol!

I started this thread to clear up a query about Murray's ranking points. You are the one who decided to invade it and turn it negative. Why don't you start your own thread about players you actually like? Then this thread has every chance of returning to the perfectly normal one it was before you decided to divert it into some anti-Murray diatribe!

Flint · Feb 25, 2014

To say "Dolgo, Dimi, Delpo and Gubis" are better or on par with Murray is ludicrous.

Once they match his achievements, then you can argue the point.

Flint · Feb 25, 2014

I'm still not sure how these zero pointers work.

Will the points Murray gains at Acapulco count towards his rankings?

*Sparkle* · Feb 25, 2014

If he wins enough points, he can replace the ones from the Davis Cup. Essentially, he won't get any points benefit unless he wins more than 95 points this week, and he'll only gain the difference.

batz · Feb 25, 2014

Flint said:
I'm still not sure how these zero pointers work.

Will the points Murray gains at Acapulco count towards his rankings?

I'll have another bash at explaining mate.

Andy has 4 slots in his ranking for ATP500 events (one of which is invariably Monte Carlo - just to make things that extra bit confusing).

3 of those slots are currently used by penalties (zero pointers) so Andy only has 1 slot available for use by a 500 event. At the moment, that 1 slot is being used by the DC points and equates to 90 points. Should Andy say, make final in Acapulco, he would win 300 points - and they would replace the 90 points from the DC - raising his ranking point total by 210 points. If Andy loses in R1 in Acapulco, he'll get zero points - and the DC points would stay where they are.

decrepitude · Feb 26, 2014

That's right - except that the DC points are 95 not 90. 5 points don't make much difference, though!

He is not just counting 3 zeros for the 500s - he has one for RG and two for Shanghai and Bercy. If he can manage to stay in one piece this year he will replace all the zeros with scores eventually.

Antonio Puente · Feb 26, 2014

Blinkism said:
Then again, there's no fun in kicking a man when he's up, is there?

You just have to be more creative.

Winning 30 slams has never stopped anyone on this forum from attempting to kick Nadal and Fed.

Murray's ranking points: a question?

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