Dealing with cheating juniors tennis
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Maximagq
Banned
I would say, if the call is close and the opponent doesn't have a reputation, just question the call. If the opponent does have a reputation, hook back, preferably on an important point. After the 2nd questionable call, regardless of whether the player has a reputation or not, hook back THEN call the line judge.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
I detest vindictive/dishonest line-calling. This is a terrible way to instill sportsmanship and morals. Cheating does not justify cheating
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Deleted member 120290
Guest
As entertaining as it is, I cannot stand to watch Junior tennis because of rampant cheating. Anything remotely close to the line is automatically called out. It is also why I stopped playing in Korean tournaments. The middle aged/senior guys take it to another level. It is an art form.
mightyrick
Legend
Calling line balls OUT is a standard part of juniors tennis. Like it or not. It is a part of that faction of the sport. In general, every player should call every ball out if they see it land on the line. It isn't a failing of morals. It is a failing of the guidelines.
It reminds me of sports like water polo. You aren't supposed to be making any intentional contact with other players. But under the water, away from the official's eyes, players are kicking, knee-ing, elbowing, and punching each other. It is a standard part of water polo.
In water polo, if you don't physically defend yourself using these tactics, you are going to get demolished.
It reminds me of sports like water polo. You aren't supposed to be making any intentional contact with other players. But under the water, away from the official's eyes, players are kicking, knee-ing, elbowing, and punching each other. It is a standard part of water polo.
In water polo, if you don't physically defend yourself using these tactics, you are going to get demolished.
arche3
Banned
Spoken like someone who played a lot of tourneys. When I was in juniors and high school through college I had no issues hooking back if that stopped the cheaters. And it always did.
I also have accountants that minimize my income tax exposure, but some people would call that cheating too.
arche3
Banned
It does seem to be a failing of the system. I guess the kids adapt till the higher tourneys where they have line judges.
What is interesting is the author of the book tennis parents bible is an authority on junior tennis. And he says that hooking back is absolutely the right way to deal with this situation if it escalates after calling a line person and they line person leaves. What does that tell you?
I'm trying to decide how my son should deal with these situations.
newpball
Legend
Two wrongs do not make a right and it can be worse one right makes a wrong. How does Kid A know Kid B makes an intentional bad call or even if his call is bad? Right, he often doesn't. So the retaliation will spin things completely out of control.
What parents should teach their children is to stay honest and stand above the idea one's opponent makes a bad call. Tennis is a great sport but in perspective it is just another bloody recreational game for almost everybody.
:grin:
newpball
Legend
Well spoken!
Parents who do not understand this are doomed to pass on their own immorality to their children.
Yes!
Parents who do not understand this are doomed to pass on their own immorality to their children.
Topspin Shot
Legend
How can you know?
Maximagq
Banned
Yes, don't let your son stand for those cheaters. Tell him not to get mad, get even. It always stops the cheating. Best of luck to him on his progress!
onehandbh
G.O.A.T.
I think everyone probably misses a call occasionally, but if there is a pattern,
the kid either has bad vision or is cheating.
When I played jr tournaments in an early round, I usually just called for a line
judge. When the line judge came out, I found that it usually affected the
cheater mentally and he lost his concentration a little bit.
You could also bring a high speed camera and took some footage and show it to the
tournament officials and then post on youtube & TW!
I remember a little while back one of the parents on TW posted a video on youtube that
was supposed to be a kid making a bad call against his son. But then when people viewed the
video, it turned out the call was correct. Hilarious.
the kid either has bad vision or is cheating.
When I played jr tournaments in an early round, I usually just called for a line
judge. When the line judge came out, I found that it usually affected the
cheater mentally and he lost his concentration a little bit.
You could also bring a high speed camera and took some footage and show it to the
tournament officials and then post on youtube & TW!
I remember a little while back one of the parents on TW posted a video on youtube that
was supposed to be a kid making a bad call against his son. But then when people viewed the
video, it turned out the call was correct. Hilarious.
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arche3
Banned
Maybe it's some sort of idealized view of the world. Or its propaganda of some absolute morality. What gets me is some people are adamant they are 100% correct. While the situation is much more out of the absolute. I have been blatantly cheated when a junior. Balls a foot in are called out to make you lose focus. Some kids do this as a tactic. What do you do then? You stop them if your a fighter. You cave and lose if you can't bear to stand up for yourself.
dsb
Rookie
This was a big problem for me when I played Jrs... My Dad absolutely forbade me from 'getting even', and told me in no uncertain terms that if he saw me making a bad call on purpose, no matter what the circumstances, he would pull me from the match.
Even when confronted with the 'when in doubt, call it out' policy of 'everyone' else, and even when coaches and other parents explained the efficacy of retaliating with bad calls, he still wouldn't let me.
It messed with my head... I probably lost more matches because of the emotional effect than the actual bad calls... and I think it made me a bit paranoid that the other guys were calling everything out...
dominikk1985
Legend
don't get involved as a parent, this is your kids game and not yours.
mikeler
Moderator
That's what it comes down to. Showing the cheater you will fight back.
I guess I was lucky in juniors because I only played 1 blatant cheater. It was so unnecessary because the kid double bageled me and didn't need to cheat. After about the 3rd bad call, I called a blatantly in 2nd serve of his out. We exchanged pleasantries for a few minutes after that but the cheating stopped.
GoaLaSSo
Semi-Pro
That is great in an ideal world, but in real competitive junior tennis you can't just lie down and take it.
It is good to give people the benefit of the doubt if it is close and it has only happened a couple of times. If it is blatant cheating, you need to call a judge over immediately or do something about it.
It is good to question them the first or second time because then they will at least think about it before they cheat again. If they are cheating you out of important points, you have to do a little cheating back unless an official is able to come quickly.
Often the officials take far too long to head over, and the cheater may have already gotten games off of his calls. Tennis is a game of inches. Close matches can be decided by a few points, which is why cheating is so rampant in the juniors.
spaceman_spiff
Hall of Fame
Unless your kid has a real shot at being a pro or tennis is the only way he/she can get a college education and escape poverty, then it's just a game and winning a match in a tournament/highschool league isn't all that important in the grand scheme of things.
As such, teaching your kid to fight cheating with cheating is at best teaching him/her that, if other people are doing something, then it's ok to do it yourself regardless of what the rules say. At worse, it's teaching your kid that, if he/she doesn't like the way things are going, then it's ok to ignore the rules. If you push those teachings too much, then there's a chance that mentality will spill over into aspects of life that are regulated by laws that carry serious penalties.
From a tennis perspective, you're better off teaching your kid to not let a bad call bother him/her (though call for an official if it gets really bad). First of all, there's the very real chance that the ball was actually out and your kid didn't see it clearly. Secondly, any kid who can maintain focus and not let a bad call wind him/her up probably won't get wound up too much by other things that are out of his/her control; i.e., your kid will maintain focus and be less of an emotional basket case throughout the course of a match.
As such, teaching your kid to fight cheating with cheating is at best teaching him/her that, if other people are doing something, then it's ok to do it yourself regardless of what the rules say. At worse, it's teaching your kid that, if he/she doesn't like the way things are going, then it's ok to ignore the rules. If you push those teachings too much, then there's a chance that mentality will spill over into aspects of life that are regulated by laws that carry serious penalties.
From a tennis perspective, you're better off teaching your kid to not let a bad call bother him/her (though call for an official if it gets really bad). First of all, there's the very real chance that the ball was actually out and your kid didn't see it clearly. Secondly, any kid who can maintain focus and not let a bad call wind him/her up probably won't get wound up too much by other things that are out of his/her control; i.e., your kid will maintain focus and be less of an emotional basket case throughout the course of a match.
MyTennisTools
Rookie
Kids (and most adults) see with their hearts, not their brains. I have a video that shows my hitting partner calling a baseline ball out that was six inches in. He was only five feet away, looking directly at it from further down the baseline. He says he still see the ball as out (in his mind) when the video showed it was actually way in. I've been hitting with him for 15 years and he's an honorable and proud guy and would never knowingly cheat.
That being said, I hate to admit but I guess there really are conscious cheaters out there, and in twenty years, I've only done on purposeful bad call. Not proud, but I did it. It does make the opponent think twice.
I think most people go by the rule that if they didn't see it clearly in, it must be out, when the correct way to call it is if you didn't see it clearly out, it must be in.
Eventually we'll have instant replay at the amateur level, and that should take care of it.
That being said, I hate to admit but I guess there really are conscious cheaters out there, and in twenty years, I've only done on purposeful bad call. Not proud, but I did it. It does make the opponent think twice.
I think most people go by the rule that if they didn't see it clearly in, it must be out, when the correct way to call it is if you didn't see it clearly out, it must be in.
Eventually we'll have instant replay at the amateur level, and that should take care of it.
spaceman_spiff
Hall of Fame
BTW, this is just one more reason to build more clay courts.
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I think the issue is much like fair dealing in business. Reputation is important, and fair dealing is our morality. Still, if competitors move into a niche lowering the standards, some form of enforcement is necessary, or retaliation, else you lose the market eventually.
My memory was that a reputation for honest line calling had value in the juniors. It was worth keeping. Nonetheless everyone knew that some kids crossed the line regularly, and that retaliation was necessary IF the tournament did not provide a referee promptly on request.
I've long wondered why they don't simply require one parent of each player to serve as a chair umpire for a match in which their child is not playing. Two chairs per match, and let the grownups overrule bad calls and fill out a form after the match about the level of compliance they saw from each of the opponents. Is that so difficult? Apparently.
My memory was that a reputation for honest line calling had value in the juniors. It was worth keeping. Nonetheless everyone knew that some kids crossed the line regularly, and that retaliation was necessary IF the tournament did not provide a referee promptly on request.
I've long wondered why they don't simply require one parent of each player to serve as a chair umpire for a match in which their child is not playing. Two chairs per match, and let the grownups overrule bad calls and fill out a form after the match about the level of compliance they saw from each of the opponents. Is that so difficult? Apparently.
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robok9
Semi-Pro
I remember at my high school district match this past year there was a match going on the the #5 championship. It was one of my teammates who was a really nice guy, and he happened to be pretty good at tennis too against a stuck up jerk who was undefeated during the whole season. My friend was up 6-1 3-0 and it was the last match of the day, so everyone was watching it. He hit a passing shot that was in by like 5 feet on each side and the other kid called it out. The person winning just asked "that was out?" and the other kid said it was. Everyone started booing him, and his dad (the coach) took away the point. He then went on to smash his racquet the next point after missing a shot. It was funny
goran_ace
Hall of Fame
It does happen quite a bit in junior golf. Usually scoring is set up where you pass cards so no one keeps score for themselves (ideally everyone in the group individually keeps track of scores for the entire group), but you can still shave strokes by being dishonest. There are other ways to cheat too like moving your ball, taking a walk in the rough and 'finding' the ball hidden in your pocket, etc.
goran_ace
Hall of Fame
Yeah having a reputation for cheating was a good way to avoid making any friends. I know some kids will insist they are there to win and not to make friends, but the competitive tennis community is not that big. Everyone knows each other through someone else. The kids that enjoy competing are the ones who stick around and hang out between matches. The kid that sits by himself and doesn't talk to anyone probably isn't going to enjoy playing week in and week out.
Ugh TCF that stinks. I looked at my son's draw and I already don't want to go. His first match is w/ the most notorious cheater in our area. Last match, boy crossed over w.o asking and looked for a ball mark in clay for 15 minutes. ridiculous. He cried, used profanity, it was completely insane. He did a similar thing to my son's doubles partners. Fortunately, this is not the norm here, I really couldn't take it if it were. I am going to email the director and tell him to have the official on hand at 8. So sad and pathetic. My dad's good friend who played college tennis, and he totally recommends hooking back which shocked me coming from him. I still can't bring myself to suggest this to my son. However, we are having the conversation of completely ignoring "are you sure", not allowing the other kid over to your side of the court etc...Last time my son beat the cheater by being so calm it unnerved the kid, but I can't be a 100% sure my son will be that calm again.
Rattler
Hall of Fame
Um they can refuse to continue to play until the umpire arrives....and if the umpire tells them they must play, they can ask to speak to the referee....and the referee must be contacted and available to all players, in person or via telephone. All of this can be done while refusing to continue to play. Only the Referee can reverse Penalties top default players.
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newpball
Legend
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GoaLaSSo
Semi-Pro
Well it depends what kind of tournament you are at. If you are at smaller USTA tournaments you can refuse to play I guess, but you could end up waiting forever since there is such a small number of officials at each tournament.
At some of my high school matches the cheating was worse than USTA. There wasnt a lot we could do about cheating for those, especially since there aren't officials at the matches all the time.
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newpball
Legend
When I see the local soccer club there are referees, linesmen, and coaches galore. They are parents and other people who just love the sport and love to help, and no they do not want to be payed for it, and yes they generally try to do that work with the best intentions and they try to honest.
Not with tennis apparently, no in tennis parents want referees for children to be payed. What's next, get an IRS tax credit for their work?
These attitudes show why tennis is not very popular. Of course a parent should not umpire a match with their own child but to suggest that an umpire will deliberately make wrong calls because some player might reach their child somewhere later in the bracket is far fetched. Seriously you would not know of any local people who would volunteer and lead a match with honor?
:grin:
Not with tennis apparently, no in tennis parents want referees for children to be payed. What's next, get an IRS tax credit for their work?
These attitudes show why tennis is not very popular. Of course a parent should not umpire a match with their own child but to suggest that an umpire will deliberately make wrong calls because some player might reach their child somewhere later in the bracket is far fetched. Seriously you would not know of any local people who would volunteer and lead a match with honor?
:grin:
arche3
Banned
I volunteer and coach the kids football team. This is 5 days a week and travel. August thru october. The league hires referees for all the games thru team fees. The team is responsible for raising money for all gear. That's new helmets and pads every 4 or 5 years. Uniforms every year. For grades 3 thru 8. 20 to 40 players per age bracket. We do fine with money and volunteers. We don't go building a new football clubhouse every couple years. We use the money for the gear kids need.
I would gladly volunteer to ref juniors tourneys my son is in. but the usta is an insular organization. Outside people have no say in it. They don't think there is a cheating problem. While top pros like Lansdorp has stated in articles there is a massive usta juniors cheating problem.
The usta could easily afford refs at every juniors match. It's not a lack of volunteers or money. They don't even address the issue.
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newpball
Legend
Well then, next time you vote against the idiots who perpetuate the problem!
But you see that's often not what people do, as they tend to vote for 'popular socialites' and then they prefer to complain afterwards and then rinse and repeat.
:grin:
We've been lucky. So far my son has only run across one blatant cheater in 1 1/2 years of playing tournaments. Because our section is rather "clean", the kid developed a reputation very quickly and has not played tournaments for the past 6 months. Not sure why, but could be related to the cheating as he's had grievances filed against him and his parents.
Also, over zealous parents need to realize the difference in mistakes and cheating. Two bad calls and you want your kid to cheat back?!? Really? There needs to be a pattern or strategy before it's really cheating. Kids make a couple bad calls a set with no ill intentions all the time. Now, 6 inches in called out on key points as a strategy is different. File a grievance, but don't get involved as a parent while the match is going on.
Also, over zealous parents need to realize the difference in mistakes and cheating. Two bad calls and you want your kid to cheat back?!? Really? There needs to be a pattern or strategy before it's really cheating. Kids make a couple bad calls a set with no ill intentions all the time. Now, 6 inches in called out on key points as a strategy is different. File a grievance, but don't get involved as a parent while the match is going on.
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I have volunteered at many junior tournaments and would have agreed with you but my last experience this year was very unpleasant. I was at the front desk scheduling the matches. It was a hot day, and a long match ended. The winner was scheduled to play a match at a time which was the minimum required time plus about 15 more minutes away. The father comes over and asks us to postpone the match because the opponent had finished earlier and had more rest time. The TD and another official are missing (I think both had their kids playing another tournament at the same time or had a family emergency). So I call the referee, and she double checks the rules, and declares that the minimum time between matches is being met, and postponement requires the opponent to agree to it. The opponent had taken off for food and could not be reached by phone. Meanwhile the father is wasting precious time not taking the kid to lunch. He keeps repeating his demand, and calls the referee "young woman" (she is old) and asks her to use common sense. She doesn't budge and shows him the rules again. Then he turns on me and tells me that he will hold me personally liable for any medical condition of his son. I don't budge and ask him to file a complaint with the USTA if he doesn't like it. He senses some weakness on our part because we were discussing among ourselves that the TD and another official cannot both be absent at the same time. He overhears that, and then threatens me again with a lawsuit if something happens to his son and points his finger at me.
Eventually, both kids arrived refreshed well before the time, and I asked the mother (who was totally quiet) if she wanted me to ask the opponent to agree to postpone. She says everything is fine. The father seemed to have disappeared.
Later I had a talk with the TD and in the club newsletter, he deliberately spelt by name as "Super" and told everyone it was not an autocorrect but a tribute to me handling the situation.
But now I think I will limit my volunteering to the adult and open tourneys and not junior ones.
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