albertobra
Hall of Fame
Wouldn't it make more sense that the WTF were made each year on a different surface? Rotating hard, grass and clay.
ATP Finals, why only on hard?
- Thread starter albertobra
- Start date
VolleyHelena
Semi-Pro
No
Tommy Haas
Hall of Fame
Isn't the contract for the WTF for ten years at a time? Wasn't it in Shangai before London?
bluetrain4
G.O.A.T.
It's fine. My theory is that tennis is singular sport. It's not three sports (representing the three surfaces). The idea that play has to be equalized across the surfaces is ridiculous. It's up to the player to adjust. If a player prefers a certain surface and has problems on others, that's the player's problem, not something that has to be "dealt with" by the tour. Besides, the medium-fast hard courts that they play on now is a fairly neutral surface. It's not lightening fast indoor carpet which the Masters (YEC) used to be played on.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
Because you just can't mess up a tournament that's being played every year.
Besides, HC is the most neutral surface.
Besides, HC is the most neutral surface.
PMChambers
Hall of Fame
It used to be carpet but that got ripped up leaving HC.
Could be played at Albert Hall on wood. Now that would get the forums going.
Could be played at Albert Hall on wood. Now that would get the forums going.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
I think a rotation to different surfaces would be a way to mix things up and maybe get more interest into the tourney. I typically shut off tennis after the USO until Jan since a) its hard to find on TV and b) so many players are shutting down and prepping for next year.
albertobra
Hall of Fame
Good point!
You are not the first one to say that the WTF is a hidden gem, and doesn't get too much attention in general.A mix of surfaces could add up, in making it a more appetible tournament, media wise.
The event is ment to be a resume of what of best happened in the year.
That is way I believe, that in this particular tournament, it is the tournament that has to adjust to the average of what happend during the year! And which best way to do this if not with at least a rotation of surfaces each year? That would make the WTF much more close to reality, and a much more correct way to interpretate the reason of why the WTF is played.
And absolutely it will add up interest and stamina to the tournament.
Spencer Gore
Legend
It should rotate, but sadly it wouldn't be practical. That's why the end of season competition (in whatever form) will never be part of the top tier of achievements.
KingKyrgios
Professional
Jesus Christ.
There are already so many clay courts and clay like hard courts and now you would like for WTF to be played on clay every few years as well???
They could make it a permanent grass tournament tho.
There are already so many clay courts and clay like hard courts and now you would like for WTF to be played on clay every few years as well???
They could make it a permanent grass tournament tho.
albertobra
Hall of Fame
I agree on the fact that we need a grass court Master 1000. And it could very well be Queens. And Halle and Queens SHOULD be played at different dates!
Really see no reason why WTF has to be indoors.
Spencer Gore
Legend
The weather?
albertobra
Hall of Fame
I meant to say that it can be indoor, but it doesn't have to be a general rule. Clearly, most of the times it will be indoor, since it will be played at latitudes where at november it is much more convenient an indoor tourny, weather wise.
But my idea is also not to stick the ATP final just in London, it could be played in any place on earth.
Tommy Haas
Hall of Fame
Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, the ATP WTF alternated between London and Shanghai. When did it become permanently held in London?
That isn't correct at all. The tournament has been in 14 or 15 venues - check this out
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATP_Finals
albertobra
Hall of Fame
Location Years Surface Stadium Capacity
Tokyo 1970 Carpet Tokyo Metropolitan Gymnasium 6,500
Paris 1971 Stade Pierre de Coubertin 5,000
Barcelona 1972 Palau Blaugrana 5,700
Boston 1973 Boston Garden 14,900
Melbourne 1974 Grass Kooyong Stadium 8,500
Stockholm 1975 Carpet Kungliga tennishallen 6,000
Houston 1976 The Summit 16,300
New York City 1977–1989 Madison Square Garden 18,000
Frankfurt 1990–1995 Festhalle Frankfurt 12,000
Hanover 1996–1999 Carpet (1996)
Indoor Hard (1997–99) Hanover fairground 15,000
Lisbon 2000 Indoor Hard Pavilhão Atlântico 12,000
Sydney 2001 Acer Arena 17,500
Shanghai 2002 SNIEC
Houston 2003–2004 Outdoor Hard Westside Tennis Club 5,240
Shanghai 2005–2008 Carpet (2005)
Indoor Hard (2006–08) Qizhong City Arena 15,000
London 2009–2020 Indoor Hard O2 Arena[13] 20,000
Tokyo 1970 Carpet Tokyo Metropolitan Gymnasium 6,500
Paris 1971 Stade Pierre de Coubertin 5,000
Barcelona 1972 Palau Blaugrana 5,700
Boston 1973 Boston Garden 14,900
Melbourne 1974 Grass Kooyong Stadium 8,500
Stockholm 1975 Carpet Kungliga tennishallen 6,000
Houston 1976 The Summit 16,300
New York City 1977–1989 Madison Square Garden 18,000
Frankfurt 1990–1995 Festhalle Frankfurt 12,000
Hanover 1996–1999 Carpet (1996)Indoor Hard (1997–99) Hanover fairground 15,000
Lisbon 2000 Indoor Hard Pavilhão Atlântico 12,000
Sydney 2001 Acer Arena 17,500
Shanghai 2002 SNIEC
Houston 2003–2004 Outdoor Hard Westside Tennis Club 5,240
Shanghai 2005–2008 Carpet (2005)Indoor Hard (2006–08) Qizhong City Arena 15,000
London 2009–2020 Indoor Hard O2 Arena[13] 20,000
albertobra
Hall of Fame
Because it will be interesting. And it is the only tournament that works on what of better happened throughout the year. And throughout the year, tournaments are played on hard, grass and clay. So, limiting the WTF just to a surface, is ending up with the fact that it is not correcly reppresenting what is in average happening throughout the year.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Indoor hard.
As closer to carpet as it can be in today's broadcasting mess.
As closer to carpet as it can be in today's broadcasting mess.
Justice Underworld
Rookie
Why would they alternate the surface? Indoor hard is good enough.
VolleyHelena
Semi-Pro
Bring back carpet
Problem solved
Problem solved
Mainad
Bionic Poster
The ATP World Tour Finals, under its present designation, has been based at the O2 Arena in London since 2009. It is not permanently based there as the contract is renewable every 3 or 4 years. Their contract currently extends until 2018.
Under its previous designations, the season ending championships have been held at a variety of locations over the years. It was based at the Qizhong Stadium in Shanghai as the Tennis Masters Cup from 2005-2008. To date, its longest stay in any one location was at Madison Square Garden in New York from 1977 to 1989 when it was known as The Masters Grand Prix.
Hawaiian grip
Professional
Bring back carpet, do away with indoor hardcourts altogether and find room and venue for a grass M1000. Rotate the WTF surface every season too, and if it was up to me I'd try to get more green clay events to properly represent the North American claycourt tradition. Not everything has always been hardcourt in the States.
We need more variety. Hardcourt making up more than 60% of the tour is crazy.
We need more variety. Hardcourt making up more than 60% of the tour is crazy.
Tommy Haas
Hall of Fame
Could someone describe what a carpet surface is like? I've never played or even stepped on one before. Is it like AstroTurf used in baseball stadiums or like durable low pile hotel carpeting or something unique to tennis?
Hawaiian grip
Professional
It was usually rubber on a concrete base. Fast and low-bouncing as hell.
Maestroesque
Professional
Delete
Maestroesque
Professional
It’s hard to explain, I’ve played on carpet before but it feels really weird and it felt uncomfortable to me, the courts were fast, I was facing an ace machine at the time, it was uncomfortable for me to move on too even though it’s soft, it’s not AstroTurf.
Tommy Haas
Hall of Fame
Are they anything like the thick black rubber tiles that's locked together with dovetail like joints to protects kids from getting hurt at children's playgrounds? The indoor carpet name sounds like a misnomer if it's not a real carpet and some sort of rubberized surface coating.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
I read somewhere that carpet was discontinued because the players didn't like it, had safety concerns with it etc. It was last used at the 2005 Tennis Masters Cup in Shanghai.
Tommy Haas
Hall of Fame
What was Federer's record on carpet? He loves indoor hard courts. It allows him to be so much more precise without having then weather elements in the way.
Hawaiian grip
Professional
Indoor is not a surface and nobody is advocating to do away with indoor tournaments anyway.
I know some players voiced something along those lines, but I find it hard to believe that it is any tougher on the body than hardcourt.
Shaolin
G.O.A.T.
1. I never called it a surface.
2. You ''indoor isn't a surface'' idiots are really annoying. Call it a condition or environment then. It's clearly different to play indoors than outdoors as highlighted by the fact that Nadal cant win a WTF to save his life but has won everything else.
Hawaiian grip
Professional
1. OK. You were comparing it to surfaces (clay, grass) so you understand some of us may have been misled, right?
2. Do you need to behave like a f'king ***** just because I posted something you don't like? You have some kind personal stuff going on and feel like taking it out on a stranger on the internet? Because otherwise I don't understand what the **** you're on about. It's disgusting to try and discuss something with somebody who calls you an idiot the first chance he gets. I also never denied playing indoors is different to outdoors, but you were making a case against something nobody -or at least nobody who is not agenda-driven- seems to be arguing -that indoors tennis should be done away with. Some of us are advocating for a change of surface, not to make those tournaments outdoors. It's fine to have indoors that time of the year.
albertobra
Hall of Fame
Well the answer is that RG and W reppresent the top tournamentes on clay and grass respectively. They are scheduled in the period of year when season is played on these surfaces and they rappresent the highest expression of tennis on these surfaces.
While the WTF is a tournament that exists to allow to compete players that in the season made the better run. So it shouldn't be surface related.
Said that, I have no doubt that it is a fantastic tournament as it is today, and actually love it, but allowing the WTF to be played in other surfaces it will be an equally great tournament.
Shaolin
G.O.A.T.
What's more disgusting, someone who uses an ad hominem attack or someone who puts words in your mouth and lies about what you say? I never called indoors a surface, in fact I called it an environment in my post. Apologies for getting personal, I was annoyed by the fact that you quoted my post but didn't seem to read it.
Tommy Haas
Hall of Fame
I think the WTF should be on an as neutral surface as possible and that's HC. Make the surface medium bouncing and speed. Indoor makes sense since it removes the weather elements and the only thing separating the players are their technical abilities.
It's also because at that time of the year, it's winter in the northern hemisphere and just too cold or snowing outside. For economical reasons, it's not held in South America or Africa and with AO being right around the corner and marking the start of the season, it doesn't make sense to have a WTF end where it begins.
It's also because at that time of the year, it's winter in the northern hemisphere and just too cold or snowing outside. For economical reasons, it's not held in South America or Africa and with AO being right around the corner and marking the start of the season, it doesn't make sense to have a WTF end where it begins.
Roddick85
Hall of Fame
Seems like I'm in the minority here, but save for Paris Indoor, I usually enjoy the indoor swing. I like the indoor atmosphere, feels different than the rest. I would like for the ATP to bring back carpet as a surface, introducing some variety would be nice, having at least 1 MS-1000 on grass as well. Given where the WTF is currently hosted, indoor is the only option due to the weather. I'm not convinced switching surface every year would really increase interest in the event, or would even be feasible (indoor grass event?). The WTF is probably due for a revised formula though. Make it a best of 5 sets event, and get rid of the RR formula where you can lose a match and yet still win the event, make it elimination based and best of 5 sets for every match.
Hawaiian grip
Professional
AGAIN, the fact that I did not understand your post the way you intended doesn't give you a right to insult me.
You seemed to compared clay/grass to indoor, I merely pointed out indoor is not a surface per se. Then you got personal. You didn't mean what I understood you meant? Did I misunderstand it? OK. Sorry about that. It still doesn't justify your getting out of your way to insult me like that. It really puts me off wanting to engage in any kind of discussion.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
It would, but it isn't.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Not sure if Bo5 for every match would be practical given the event only lasts a week and they play every day but certainly agree for the final.
As a matter of interest, I wonder how many players have won the event after losing in the round-robin? I may look into that and see how often that has happened (I'm sure some stats whizzo can get there before me).
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