2019 Rome FINAL: Novak Djokovic (1) vs Rafael Nadal (2)

[Rickenbacker4003]

Djokovic isnt afraid of playing Rafa at any surface, he surely wont tank at FO.

He did last two years losing to Thiem and Cecchinato knowing that’s Rafa was on fire and waiting for him. Get your head out your ass kid.

 

[tudwell]

Well, after this match I think the Roland Garros favorites are clear:

3. Thiem
2. Djokovic
1. Nadal
0. Fognini

 

[Deleted member 77403]

@Hitman Who is now your favorite for RG?

Nadal, then Djokovic, then Thiem, then Federer

I said if Nadal wins here and beats Djokovic, his chances go up. He needed the win here today.

 

[RF-18]

It is because he didn't want to give up mentally, he wanted to be beaten physically. When you are mentally switched on, you do whatever it takes to stay that way, and Novak needs this mindset of going out to win every match no matter what if he wants to win RG again. Losing physically here was easy to accept and rationalize - the schedule, the double duty, the night to day sessions, the six hour matches, the less time to recover etc. It is almost a way to give yourself mental therapy that that is what it is taking to beat you out there, and that isn't going to be the case every single time.

Absolutely agree, and the reasons you mention in the end is spot on.

As you said earlier in the thread, I see this as the glass being half full. Djokovic has alot to take from this week, but also the 2nd set clutch today. That is of high value what he managed to do there. Novak from a year ago would have lost that 2nd set 6-2 or something.

Hoping he has a good draw in RG, and doesn't complicate too much. Exciting times ahead.

 

[weakera]

Ultimately Novak did succumb, which really showed the mental issues that Rafa has, that he let that set slip. Should have converted at that 0-40 game and finished it there IMO. But the mental game is part of the sport, how many time we have seen mental blocks wreck havoc on the players in key moments.

Rafa didn't choke in that game though. He played a bad return and then Nole shut the door with two big serves. Seems kind of crazy to call that a choke just to serve your narrative.

 

[Pablo1989]

I love this passion

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1130156533172645888

 

[Jonas78]

He did last two years losing to Thiem and Cecchinato knowing that’s Rafa was on fire and waiting for him. Get your head out your ass kid.

Ill remember you said that

 

[Deleted member 77403]

He did last two years losing to Thiem and Cecchinato knowing that’s Rafa was on fire and waiting for him. Get your head out your ass kid.

He wasn't beating Thiem the last two years there at RG based on their respective forms. Thiem could only have been stopped by Nadal.

 

[OhYes]

Good draw or not, it’s not his natural surface. He will struggle more against the same opposition because it’s not hard court. Nadal if he plays like he did this week in Rome will swim through the Paris draw heading into another final fresh and ready for execution day. Since 2005, you see things happen. You trust it.

Novak has played on clay since he was a kid. Problem is in Nadal who is much better player on clay than in other surfaces.
One more thing we forgot - court condition. Novak was really appalled by Rome courts which he stressed out several times at this tournament. If RG is in better condition, Novak will perform better.

 

[Rickenbacker4003]

Just good draw in RG, I ask nothing more from that Slam. Novak has played too much in short time for age he is in right now.

Well then talk to Vajda about that. Because I’m beginning to think Rafa purposely didn’t push himself in MC, Barcelona and Madrid to not get burnt out for Paris. All of a sudden he shows up to Rome handing out bagels and breadsticks to everyone including Djokovic? He was sandbagging the clay season to save himself for Paris it looks like.

 

[TennisFan3]

I love this passion

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1130156533172645888

That's what makes these legends play year after year. Good to see.

 

[Rickenbacker4003]

He wasn't beating Thiem the last two years there at RG based on their respective forms. Thiem could only have been stopped by Nadal.

Thiem in 2017 wasn’t anywhere near the Thiem of 2018 and especially not 2019. Djoko saw the loss to Thiem as the lesser of losing to Nadal in a slam.

 

[uscwang]

Gotta give to Novak for fighting in second set. Should take it easy on drop shots, lost so many points there.

It only showed how badly he wanted to finish the points. With a full tank, Novak will be a different player.

 

[Rickenbacker4003]

Ill remember you said that

Good, I hope you remember when it happens again.

 

[StrongRule]

Nadal, then Djokovic, then Thiem, then Federer

I said if Nadal wins here and beats Djokovic, his chances go up. He needed the win here today.

Yes, but I don't know how much this match tells us. Djokovic was far from his best, especially in the first set. I'd say his level in this match was pretty much the same as in Rome 2018 against Nadal. Nadal on the other hand started great but then his mental problems returned.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Absolutely agree, and the reasons you mention in the end is spot on.

As you said earlier in the thread, I see this as the glass being half full. Djokovic has alot to take from this week, but also the 2nd set clutch today. That is of high value what he managed to do there. Novak from a year ago would have lost that 2nd set 6-2 or something.

Hoping he has a good draw in RG, and doesn't complicate too much. Exciting times ahead.

Yes, as I said, I am totally content with this week. Overall I think fans of the big three should be satisfied. The only one who didn't really perform well was Thiem, but he had a great Barcelona and Madrid run.

 

[Rickenbacker4003]

It only showed how badly he wanted to finish the points. With a full tank, Novak will be a different player.

That’s his fault. He needed to dismiss his opponents better. He didn’t and that’s his problem.

 

[Jonas78]

Good, I hope you remember when it happens again.

And i hope you stick around when they meet

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Rafa didn't choke in that game though. He played a bad return and then Nole shut the door with two big serves. Seems kind of crazy to call that a choke just to serve your narrative.

You don't have to agree. That bad return allowed Djokovic to open up and go for big serves. You see it differently, fine.

 

[Grampa]

That was the most one sided three set final ever.

Fed vs Kuerten Hamburg Quarter Final 2002: 6-0,1-6,6-2

 

[Rickenbacker4003]

Novak has played on clay since he was a kid. Problem is in Nadal who is much better player on clay than in other surfaces.
One more thing we forgot - court condition. Novak was really appalled by Rome courts which he stressed out several times at this tournament. If RG is in better condition, Novak will perform better.

He beat Novak last year in Rome as well. He’s beaten Novak in all the clay events they faced each other. Stop grasping at straws.

 

[Rickenbacker4003]

And i hope you stick around when they meet

I’ve been here a lot longer than you. Still here.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Thiem in 2017 wasn’t anywhere near the Thiem of 2018 and especially not 2019. Djoko saw the loss to Thiem as the lesser of losing to Nadal in a slam.

I don't know if I agree. Novak has the elbow injury at that point also, and tapped out to Berdych in Wimbledon and shut his season down. I think Thiem was the better player, he had beaten Nadal in Rome heading in also, and despite Novak beating Thiem in Rome, he got blitzed by Zverev in the final. If Zverev can beat Djokovic in Rome, then why not Thiem in Paris.

 

[icedevil0289]

Nadal, then Djokovic, then Thiem, then Federer

I said if Nadal wins here and beats Djokovic, his chances go up. He needed the win here today.

interesting, idk what that says about the clay court competition that fed is still considered in the mix given all the factors. i think i just read something about bookies having him as 5th behind tsitsipas.

 

[La Grande]

WTFFF just seen that Nadal bagelled Djokovic... how?!?!

 

[Rickenbacker4003]

The clay argument will always favor Rafa. Anything otherwise is just denial and desperation for something different. This year looks to be more of the same. Grass? That’s a different story.

 

[weakera]

You don't have to agree. That bad return allowed Djokovic to open up and go for big serves. You see it differently, fine.

That return on 0-40 told us all we need to know lol

 

[icedevil0289]

I don't know if I agree. Novak has the elbow injury at that point also, and tapped out to Berdych in Wimbledon and shut his season down. I think Thiem was the better player, he had beaten Nadal in Rome heading in also, and despite Novak beating Thiem in Rome, he got blitzed by Zverev in the final. If Zverev can beat Djokovic in Rome, then why not Thiem in Paris.

its hilarious to me how the clay prince still has zero clay court masters yet zverev has 2.

 

[Rickenbacker4003]

Fed won’t even make the QF of the French.

 

[weakera]

WTFFF just seen that Nadal bagelled Djokovic... how?!?!

Pretty easily was how

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Yes, but I don't know how much this match tells us. Djokovic was far from his best, especially in the first set. I'd say his level in this match was pretty much the same as in Rome 2018 against Nadal. Nadal on the other hand started great but then his mental problems returned.

It tells us that Nadal is the better player against the field, and in case you forgot, there are another 126 players in the draw you need to get through. That plays an important part also. We saw how Nadal did this week and we also saw how Djokovic did.

 

[StrongRule]

You don't have to agree. That bad return allowed Djokovic to open up and go for big serves. You see it differently, fine.

Once Nadal missed that second serve return I already had a feeling he will lose this game and set. And he did. Djokovic's first serve is really good, so when he has a second serve you need to take your chances.

 

[Rickenbacker4003]

WTFFF just seen that Nadal bagelled Djokovic... how?!?!

If you ask how Rafa can bagel anyone on the dirt you don’t watch tennis enough.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Once Nadal missed that second serve return I already had a feeling he will lose this game and set. And he did. Djokovic's first serve is really good, so when he has a second serve you need to take your chances.

Well these things do happen. Nadal didn't take his chances in that second set.

 

[icedevil0289]

Yes, as I said, I am totally content with this week. Overall I think fans of the big three should be satisfied. The only one who didn't really perform well was Thiem, but he had a great Barcelona and Madrid run.

part of me would have still liked to see where fed was at against nadal, assuming he got past tsitsipas ofc which still would have been an uphill battle. but i mean at this point, despite the scars of their clay court matches, that loss wouldn't have bothered me, i think it would have been interesting to see how his approach.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

I've heard though on Twitter probsvlt
To be honest thay kind of worries me I just hope he doesn't think engaging in grinding rallies is helpful at this age though of


interesting, idk what that says about the clay court competition that fed is still considered in the mix given all the factors. i think i just read something about bookies having him as 5th behind tsitsipas.

Federer wants the longer rallies. He said it will help in the slower HC conditions of USO. He specifically spoke about his loss to Millman and the heavy conditions and that he felt his body was not ready to grind.

 

[I Am Finnish]

Even though losing a set to this version of Djokovic is not really a good sign hmm

 

[icedevil0289]

Fed won’t even make the QF of the French.

i think a lot depends on the draw and how he is feeling physically but i think even fed said that if he makes the 2nd week, he considers it a success. most people aren't expecting much from him

 

[Jonas78]

I’ve been here a lot longer than you. Still here.

Sure. I just dont see why Djokovic should have a reputation of tanking matches. The loss to Cecchinato was more because of bad form imo, he had been in bad form for the most of 2018...

 

[StrongRule]

It tells us that Nadal is the better player against the field, and in case you forgot, there are another 126 players in the draw you need to get through. That plays an important part also. We saw how Nadal did this week and we also saw how Djokovic did.

I already said it earlier that the worst scenario for Nadal would be to win Rome but lose in RG. This title was important, but it also puts pressure on him because now more people will expect him to do well in RG. I still think if he wants to win he needs somebody to take Djokovic out before the final. The last time I was relatively confident in him beating Djokovic was in RG 2012, though even then there was a moment when it looked like he might get into trouble. (I guess it was hard for him to wait until the next day knowing that Djokovic is up with a break in the fourth set)

 

[icedevil0289]

Federer wants the longer rallies. He said it will help in the slower HC conditions of USO. He specifically spoke about his loss to Millman and the heavy conditions and that he felt his body was not ready to grind.

lol that comment was a mess, i meant to edit and then you replied. i guess my fear in general is this stubborn idea of his that he has to match his opponents and not doing what has worked for him in 2017.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

part of me would have still liked to see where fed was at against nadal, assuming he got past tsitsipas ofc which still would have been an uphill battle. but i mean at this point, despite the scars of their clay court matches, that loss wouldn't have bothered me, i think it would have been interesting to see how his approach.

Federer probably would have wanted it, but the double duty was tough on him That Coric match was a bit too much, especially for a near 38 year old. It would be crazy if they play a semi at RG.

 

[I Am Finnish]

Realistically, yes. If Novak had to play fresh Delpo in final I think he would lose that, probably in straights.
Grabbing set from Nadal in this condition, shows that Nadal still has demons facing Djokovic.

True that

 

[icedevil0289]

Federer probably would have wanted it, but the double duty was tough on him That Coric match was a bit too much, especially for a near 38 year old. It would be crazy if they play a semi at RG.

lol imagine the paris crowd. i think that might be the one time that I'd be calm about a fedal match (haha me calm). it would just be me hoping he gets more games than he did back in 2008.

 

[StrongRule]

Well these things do happen. Nadal didn't take his chances in that second set.

What I don't like is that in this matchup it happens really often with Nadal. It is clearly a mental block. It is sad given how good Nadal used to be mentally when he was young. For example, IMO Djokovic was clearly the better player in Madrid 2009, Nadal just won most of the big points then. But in the last few years it is the other way around.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

I already said it earlier that the worst scenario for Nadal would be to win Rome but lose in RG. This title was important, but it also puts pressure on him because now more people will expect him to do well in RG. I still think if he wants to win he needs somebody to take Djokovic out before the final. The last time I was relatively confident in him beating Djokovic was in RG 2012, though even then there was a moment when it looked like he might get into trouble. (I guess it was hard for him to wait until the next day knowing that Djokovic is up with a break in the fourth set)

Nadal honestly needed the win here. Winning can never be a bad thing and he cannot think how would this impact me if I then lose RG? Nadal says he plays in the here and now, and every title is important. Yes, RG is special, but Nadal is the ultimate momentum player, so a win can only help him gain traction in Paris. He can beat Djokovic there, he has done it 6 times, so lets wait and see how the draw and the weather plays out.

lol that comment was a mess, i meant to edit and then you replied. i guess my fear in general is this stubborn idea of his that he has to match his opponents and not doing what has worked for him in 2017.

Keep in mind that nobody loves tennis more than Federer, and just the sheer joy of going out there and competing is a drug to him. He is not being stupid either, he cleverly pulled out here, when he needed to. He is being risk averse here and that will help him.

 

[I Am Finnish]

Djokovic: "For the Roland Garros Nadal is the number one favorite and then you have everyone else" #ibi19

True that

 

[Grampa]

Didn't watch the match but was keeping a look on the score since 4-4 in the second set. After going through this thread and watching @Yoeri Tennis II's highlights (excellent, as usual) I confess that I really don't know who is the favourite out of Djokodal. Novak was tired here; Rafa did take advantage of that but does seem to choke against him in tight situations. RG will finally be watchable after so many years. Hope the prince of clay at least makes the semis, the genius still hasn't been close to even one master on clay while the insufferable ''let's go" has 2. A travesty, by all means.

 

[I Am Finnish]

Djokovic: "I'm glad I did to the third set considering how went the first, even if it ended in a similar way. I always respect the win of my opponent, I don't want to talk about how schedule influenced the match" #ibi19

 

[Deleted member 77403]

lol imagine the paris crowd. i think that might be the one time that I'd be calm about a fedal match (haha me calm). it would just be me hoping he gets more games than he did back in 2008.

Long way to go to that yet, and Nadal isn't in 2008 form and he won't be for this RG either.

What I don't like is that in this matchup it happens really often with Nadal. It is clearly a mental block. It is sad given how good Nadal used to be mentally when he was young. For example, IMO Djokovic was clearly the better player in Madrid 2009, Nadal just won most of the big points then. But in the last few years it is the other way around.

The only way to erase mental blocks is by facing that player. Federer had to do it against Nadal at AO 2017, there is no reason why Nadal cannot do it against Djokovic.