4.5/5.0 vs. ex D1

[ChaelAZ]

Tim is known on the TT forums and I think might post around here as well, but always a great example to study for players trying to improve to those next levels from 3.5 or 4.0 up. This was a really good match overall, but also shows the difference between a 4.5/5.0 player and D1. Comments on YT have some good insights too so worth visiting for reading.

Some things I observed include:

• JR has a HUGE serve and gets free points as well as starting Tim on the defense often.
• JR was not over hitting and was able to manage his strokes with excellent shot tolerance. This is, he had both the fitness level to stay in point and not hit late at all (even with a higher take back and loop on his forehand).
  
• Tim is just an outstanding mover (like crazy good). I thought he could use that to move in and take a few balls earlier. Very tough when JR hit a lot of higher, deeper balls consistently though.
• Watching this reinforces my belief the #1 improvement lower level players can make is fitness and footwork. Both Tim and JR move so well, and early, they are able to execute and control ground strokes very well. Most lower level players hit on an off-foot, moving backwards, late, leaning, etc.

An observations you have?

 

[IowaGuy]

• Most lower level players hit on an off-foot, moving backwards, late, leaning, etc.

Great hitting and athleticism!

Let's watch a rematch, when they're both in their 40's, 50's, or 60's, to make it more applicable to the majority of rec/club players.

Much easier to get free points on your big serve when you're 20 years old with a fresh shoulder than when you're middle-aged

 

[IowaGuy]

double post

 

[tennis_balla]

My observation is JR didn’t play at 100%, because in that first game you can see balls he should of attacked on early but didn’t. The 26 shot rally is a good example.
Good video overall though, both good players and I agree and keep saying it on here that footwork and movement is the key. If someone wants to play at higher levels, they have to be able to move well because the ball speed increases the higher you go.

 

[Limpinhitter]

Tim is known on the TT forums and I think might post around here as well, but always a great example to study for players trying to improve to those next levels from 3.5 or 4.0 up. This was a really good match overall, but also shows the difference between a 4.5/5.0 player and D1. Comments on YT have some good insights too so worth visiting for reading.

Some things I observed include:

• JR has a HUGE serve and gets free points as well as starting Tim on the defense often.
• JR was not over hitting and was able to manage his strokes with excellent shot tolerance. This is, he had both the fitness level to stay in point and not hit late at all (even with a higher take back and loop on his forehand).
  
• Tim is just an outstanding mover (like crazy good). I thought he could use that to move in and take a few balls earlier. Very tough when JR hit a lot of higher, deeper balls consistently though.
• Watching this reinforces my belief the #1 improvement lower level players can make is fitness and footwork. Both Tim and JR move so well, and early, they are able to execute and control ground strokes very well. Most lower level players hit on an off-foot, moving backwards, late, leaning, etc.

An observations you have?

Excellent observations. I would add that the quality and consistency of footwork and shot preparation is the biggest difference between all levels of play starting at the top of the pro level.

 

[kimguroo]

My observation is JR didn’t play at 100%, because in that first game you can see balls he should of attacked on early but didn’t. The 26 shot rally is a good example.
Good video overall though, both good players and I agree and keep saying it on here that footwork and movement is the key. If someone wants to play at higher levels, they have to be able to move well because the ball speed increases the higher you go.

Exactly what I thought. Looks like JR can play better but rarely showed his ability except serves.

 

[WildVolley]

Didn't watch all of it, but incredibly long points. Tim is extremely consistent from the baseline and changes direction on the ball well.

Looks like he could get more aggressive with his volleys as he had some possible put-aways at net in the first game which he floated deep.

 

[SinjinCooper]

You're in for a long day any time you're completely overwhelmed by your opponent's second serves.

I like that JR has a little Lendl in him. Two times in the first two games, had an easy sitter with Tim at the net, and a trivial passing shot. Both times, chose instead to fire it at Tim's crank.

Good share, AZ.

 

[Alexrb]

My observation is JR didn’t play at 100%, because in that first game you can see balls he should of attacked on early but didn’t. The 26 shot rally is a good example.
Good video overall though, both good players and I agree and keep saying it on here that footwork and movement is the key. If someone wants to play at higher levels, they have to be able to move well because the ball speed increases the higher you go.

This, from my experience the better player usually plays worse than they would playing a player of equal caliber. I'm a 4.0/4.5 (somewhere between there) and my D3 friend looks totally different playing me in a practice set than when he plays his brother who is a similar level. Not saying you can't still learn things from watching it, but if I was the 4.5 in that video I would just realize the D1 guy probably has more gears.

 

[ChaelAZ]

This, from my experience the better player usually plays worse than they would playing a player of equal caliber.

Very true. I have the opportunity to hit with some pretty good players, from jr's, top high school, college, and some ex-pros/coaches currently, and in my experience, while I am pushing myself to keep up with pace and consistency, they are playing down and usually around 70% of what they would play if in a true competitive match that challenges them. In the Tim and JR case, I think Tim do amazingly well to keep JR moving, but that is a big ask to push him.

Dat footwork doh. Getting ready to turn 50 and I feel it watching them (and remembering a time) run around like crazy. Motivation to keep pushing.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Tim is known on the TT forums and I think might post around here as well, but always a great example to study for players trying to improve to those next levels from 3.5 or 4.0 up. This was a really good match overall, but also shows the difference between a 4.5/5.0 player and D1. Comments on YT have some good insights too so worth visiting for reading.

Some things I observed include:

• JR has a HUGE serve and gets free points as well as starting Tim on the defense often.
• JR was not over hitting and was able to manage his strokes with excellent shot tolerance. This is, he had both the fitness level to stay in point and not hit late at all (even with a higher take back and loop on his forehand).
  
• Tim is just an outstanding mover (like crazy good). I thought he could use that to move in and take a few balls earlier. Very tough when JR hit a lot of higher, deeper balls consistently though.
• Watching this reinforces my belief the #1 improvement lower level players can make is fitness and footwork. Both Tim and JR move so well, and early, they are able to execute and control ground strokes very well. Most lower level players hit on an off-foot, moving backwards, late, leaning, etc.

An observations you have?

@SinjinCooper liking the peg attempt ... who could have guessed that?

I have an observation. 20 and fast beats 50 with better footwork and better strokes and $zillions in lessons and a better house and a trophy wife.

 

[Power Player]

My observation. I have similar movement to the 4.5 guy. He is a bit faster but we move the same. The main thing I see is stuff I saw in myself when I watched my vids. His balance is off and he is allowing the better player to push him backwards. Easier said than done, but he needs to be able to come into the court from a weight transfer perspective. In this vid, he is getting to the ball but he's robbing himself of power.

This is all easy to say when watching a match. Much harder to do when you are not used to seeing the ball coming at you. Or you are hungover and partied a bit hard the night before..stuff like that. It is just something that I hate about my game and really worked to fix. It is a constant thing to work on.

Second thing is he has to jump on that second serve more. Has to come downhill on it instead of letting it rise up.

Again, easier said than done. But it's stuff to work on that can get your game up a half level.

 

[ChaelAZ]

I have an observation. 20 and fast beats 50 with better footwork and better strokes and $zillions in lessons and a better house and a trophy wife.

Jealousy will NOT improve your game! lol.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Jealousy will NOT improve your game! lol.

20 envy

 

[StringingIrvine]

Both great players!
One thing I noticed was Tim's return position after a shot. For a majority of the shots he seemed to return directly to the middle of the court. He'd hit a strong forehand cross court shot and would return to the middle of the court instead of slightly right of middle. His foot speed is fast enough to get the balls, but I think he could be saving a lot of energy and perhaps giving himself more time if he returned to the correct position.

 

[ChaelAZ]

20 envy

Hell, I'll take 50 with better footwork and better strokes and $zillions in lessons and a better house and a trophy wife....forget 20.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Hell, I'll take 50 with better footwork and better strokes and $zillions in lessons and a better house and a trophy wife....forget 20.

My wife is perfect ... she knows I post here.

That reminds me of a thread I was going to create, but forgot. OT ... but it's your thread and you followed me OT

If you could play one match with/as the following, which one do you choose?

- Agassi 20/10 vision
- Isner height and serve
- Federer FH
- McEnroe s&v
- Wawrinka bh (I know you pick this one),

Or add your own. I think I go with 20/10 vision ... after years of contacts and two Lasik surgeries, I would like to know if my 40+ year excuse was true.

 

[ChaelAZ]

My wife is perfect ... she knows I post here.

That reminds me of a thread I was going to create, but forgot. OT ... but it's your thread and you followed me OT

If you could play one match with/as the following, which one do you choose?

- Agassi 20/10 vision
- Isner height and serve
- Federer FH
- McEnroe s&v
- Wawrinka bh (I know you pick this one),

Or add your own. I think I go with 20/10 vision ... after years of contacts and two Lasik surgeries, I would like to know if my 40+ year excuse was true.

I might have to agree on the Agassi pick, as my vision is getting pretty bad and I notice I am having depth perception issues at times. Tie that in with mediocre footwork and I am suprirse I contact the balls as often as I do.

And "hello" to Mrs. BBP.

 

[Bluefan75]

For those of us who don't know these guys, can you let us know who is who?

 

[FiReFTW]

Must be annoying to play a guy like JR. He hits the ball consistently back and deep most of the time, but with little pace, and he is fast and moves around like a cheetah. Almost impossible to blow him off court unless ur hitting crazy angles and even then not always.

 

[J011yroger]

I like blue shirt guy's BH.

J

 

[SinjinCooper]

For those of us who don't know these guys, can you let us know who is who?

They keep score graphically as they play, so it's easy to tell as you watch.

 

[RetroSpin]

My observation is JR didn’t play at 100%, because in that first game you can see balls he should of attacked on early but didn’t. The 26 shot rally is a good example.
Good video overall though, both good players and I agree and keep saying it on here that footwork and movement is the key. If someone wants to play at higher levels, they have to be able to move well because the ball speed increases the higher you go.

Same impression here. He was carrying the other guy, not that the other guy isn't a really good player. He was basically feeding him rally balls to stretch out the points.

 

[skuludo]

Tim is known on the TT forums and I think might post around here as well, but always a great example to study for players trying to improve to those next levels from 3.5 or 4.0 up. This was a really good match overall, but also shows the difference between a 4.5/5.0 player and D1. Comments on YT have some good insights too so worth visiting for reading.

Some things I observed include:

• JR has a HUGE serve and gets free points as well as starting Tim on the defense often.
• JR was not over hitting and was able to manage his strokes with excellent shot tolerance. This is, he had both the fitness level to stay in point and not hit late at all (even with a higher take back and loop on his forehand).
  
• Tim is just an outstanding mover (like crazy good). I thought he could use that to move in and take a few balls earlier. Very tough when JR hit a lot of higher, deeper balls consistently though.
• Watching this reinforces my belief the #1 improvement lower level players can make is fitness and footwork. Both Tim and JR move so well, and early, they are able to execute and control ground strokes very well. Most lower level players hit on an off-foot, moving backwards, late, leaning, etc.

An observations you have?

Tim can improve his one foot pivots on both his forehand and backhand. After hitting a forehand or backhand his back feet needs to move in front of the other. This should improve his recovery in and out of the shot, so he can move back to a court position where he can intersect his opponents next shot. He can lighten the outside foot by distributing weight to both feet in a 50-50 or 60-40 weight distribution during load up of the forehand or backhand. Right now he is moving across the baseline. He can instead choose a V pattern (does not need to be as steep as the letter V) where he stands back a bit further and move in on each shot and recover to a court position in the middle of where he can intersect his opponents next possible shots. This should give him more time, so he doesn't feel as rushed. Right now his racket take back on every shot is late. As the ball crosses the net the racket should already be back already and Tim should start executing the forward swing. You can see that this is what Federer does for his ground strokes. Also, Tim should stop dropping his racket too far below the ball during the take back phase, which is robbing him of a lot of court penetration right now. He can still get the spin by moving the forearm quickly, but he needs to combine that with a driving swing.

Tim needs to make sure he hits further out to the side for has forehand, and the ideal contact point should be 1 1/2 racket away from him. The backhand should be one racket away from him. To improve his accuracy he can make use of his shoulders to do the aiming where the shoulder points to the target he is aiming for. If he chooses this aiming method than he just needs to make sure he delays the opening of his shoulders a bit. These shots should be pretty accurate because the racket path doesn't suddenly change from opening his shoulders, which can throw off his aim.


As for JR he has similar issues as well on his ground strokes. I think he just needs to be aware of how to distribute the weight of his feet on his one foot pivot shots. When done correctly the racket path for him should fall into place as well. With his current take back he can hit like Chung just by swinging in a circle from that position and do the pivots properly. This applies to both forehand and backhand.

 

[tennis_balla]

Same impression here. He was carrying the other guy, not that the other guy isn't a really good player. He was basically feeding him rally balls to stretch out the points.

Yea, that 26 shot rally should of been over in like 5. He knew the difference in level, and knew the other guy couldn't hurt him. You can clearly see it in the second game where he's down like 0-40 on the other guys serve and once he starts making his returns its back to deuce in no time.
I'm not knocking anyone here, the reason I am typing this all out is to let others know the difference in level and to not think just because you're a 4.5 that you can hang with a D1 player, much less a pro and get a game off them.

 

[Curious]

You can clearly see it in the second game where he's down like 0-40 on the other guys serve and once he starts making his returns its back to deuce in no time.

But that same game went to deuce 7 or 8 times and JR eventually lost it.

 

[vex]

Hell, I'll take 50 with better footwork and better strokes and $zillions in lessons and a better house and a trophy wife....forget 20.

Wut. Hellz no

37, gimme 20 back

 

[rchjr2091]

JR made it known - stand close to the net if you want to !
That video was great tennis to watch !

 

[mcs1970]

Great video. JR's serve is dominant. When you have a serve that good that gives you a lot of confidence. You know you can take some chances and still win a ton of games. Whenever you watch two really good players but where one is clearly better, it's usually not due to too many things that the weaker guy is doing worse. It's usually because the better player has one or two things that he does at such a superior level, that he can impose his will on the game. You can see this all the way to the top. You can even be in the top 20 in the world and the top 5 can make you look pedestrian.

 

[pabletion]

Now this is one of the nicest posts Ive seen in a while.....

Didnt know who they were and didnt pay much attention to the OP or descriptionv so:

First points: didnt know who was who, that is, who was D1 and who was 4.5. Then it starts to sink in because, Tim is going for morev while JR is just consistent as FK (cant remember if he even missed a shot).

Movement: JR is more natural, anticipates better, while Tim seems to lose his balance more, although fast and athletic, hes late on many balls that dont really get away from JR.

Serve: thats a given. JR much more fluid. Faster with seemingly less effort. Very nice trophy pose and rhythm. Tims serve is jerkier, not as loose and his turn is not as wide.

Overall groundstrokes: JR is just on automatic. Accelerating with plenty of height and margin, not really complicating himself just opening up the court. You dont see any fancy dtl flat winners, just him owning the center of the court.

Although Tim has plenty of game, he doesnt have that great control over thw ball that JR has. He seems hes reacting more than setting pace. This is JR's fault of course.

Just CONSISTENCY is key. I mean, its clear JR wasnt hitting all out and maybe thats his success, he didnt need to and it paid off to just not miss, whilr still being aggresive enough. He knew that if Tim eventually went for a more aggresive shot, he could either force an error or be fast enough to run down most balls, giving him an extra shot. He surprised Tim plenty of times at net with a textbook crosscourt shot that just dips down.

I then saw thw 1st video, what a difference. Tim was waaaay too eager to get on the offensive, go for too much on everything.

Yeah, sometimes it seems theyre little differences but its key to be used to that pace all the timev have the fitness to endure it and have the match experience to be used to those pressure situations.

Fun video! Tell Tim well done!

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I then saw thw 1st video, what a difference. Tim was waaaay too eager to get on the offensive, go for too much on everything.

In my opinion, when I'm up against a clearly superior player, going for long rallies does not favor me. It's highly likely I'm going to lose the point. Rather, my best chance [not necessarily a good chance, mind you] is to go for it and take risks. So I'd characterize Tim's play as near-optimal from a strategy standpoint.

 

[RVAtennisaddict]

Very consistent but the balls seemed very slow and loopy. Maybe it was just the video but nothing like the d1 teams I watch and have hit w (and they were taking it easy on me).

 

[atp2015]

In my opinion, when I'm up against a clearly superior player, going for long rallies does not favor me. It's highly likely I'm going to lose the point. Rather, my best chance [not necessarily a good chance, mind you] is to go for it and take risks. So I'd characterize Tim's play as near-optimal from a strategy standpoint.

I'm the exact opposite. I try to be in the rally as long as possible and go for safe targets. Against weaker players, try to keep the point short and finish playing as soon as I can.
That's why the scores look very similar (with difdent player winning) against both though result was never in doubt.

 

[WhiskeyEE]

Observation #1: The 2 handed backhand is a generally hideous stroke, especially when hit by amateurs.
Observation #2: I like the one guy's liquidmetal prestige. And he has a nice serve.

 

[StringSnapper]

2:52 great exampe of the 'supertop' topspin lasso forehand. he's drawn wide, the opponent doesn't rush in, and he buys himself some time with the extra height of the forehand.

 

[skuludo]

Observation #1: The 2 handed backhand is a generally hideous stroke, especially when hit by amateurs.
Observation #2: I like the one guy's liquidmetal prestige. And he has a nice serve.

Doesn't observation #2 look more like a Yonex RDIS 100? The butt capp is all green where as Head is grey. Also the four corners have stripes, of grey on JR's racket compared to Head's straight silver.

 

[WhiskeyEE]

Doesn't observation #2 look more like a Yonex RDIS 100? The butt capp is all green where as Head is grey. Also the four corners have stripes, of grey on JR's racket compared to Head's straight silver.

Yep you are correct. It's definitely a yonex considering the square shape of the frame.

 

[Chadillac]

Very consistent but the balls seemed very slow and loopy. Maybe it was just the video but nothing like the d1 teams I watch and have hit w (and they were taking it easy on me).

Constant pressure with threat. The 4.5 was rarely in position for offense.

 

[user92626]

I prefer JR's movement and anticipation and his "manner" of hitting the shots over the other guy. In my mind that's also how I play! It seems to take less energy than Tim. However, IMO, JR makes two critical mistakes. He's backing up too much. Fear? Clearly he can return serves standing close to the baseline but then he retreats so far behind the baseline. It gives up too much time.

#2 He doesn't accelerate his swings. No intensity. To certain people, that's a consistent, non-pressuring, pushy stroke. On both wings.

It's very hard to play from way behind the baseline + non accelerating strokes but clearly he's making up by being very athletic and anticipating.

 

[ChaelAZ]

I prefer JR's movement and anticipation and his "manner" of hitting the shots over the other guy. In my mind that's also how I play! It seems to take less energy than Tim. However, IMO, JR makes two critical mistakes. He's backing up too much. Fear? Clearly he can return serves standing close to the baseline but then he retreats so far behind the baseline. It gives up too much time.

Great observation and this is something I notice of others and especially in my game when I feel pressured. The idea that "I" need more time directly effects my ability to take time away from the opponent, which is usually a key factor in being able to beat higher level players. It is especially interesting in this match because as you mention, Tim is such an athlete and can move so well with decent early prep, you would think he would move in quicker, but I agree that it is probably that thought and feeling of needing more time that keeps him back.

Good stuff.

 

[SinjinCooper]

It's very hard to play from way behind the baseline + non accelerating strokes but clearly he's making up by being very athletic and anticipating.

Depth, spin, placement, consistency.

He's playing a very Wilander game.

 

[esprits4s]

There are a lot of glowing comments in this thread, but this video (and the reaction here) confuses me somewhat. Both players are very good. However, Tim doesn't look like a D1 player to me, and junior appears to be taking things easy on Tim (aside from his serve). Maybe this is just his playing style, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Jr has a whole other gear not on display in this match.

 

[SinjinCooper]

There are a lot of glowing comments in this thread, but this video (and the reaction here) confuses me somewhat. Both players are very good. However, Tim doesn't look like a D1 player to me, and junior appears to be taking things easy on Tim (aside from his serve). Maybe this is just his playing style, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Jr has a whole other gear not on display in this match.

Tim isn't a D1 player. (At least, I assume not. He certainly doesn't play like one. I assume he's the titular 4.5.) And your observation mirrors most of the others above. So your confusion confuses me.

 

[esprits4s]

Tim isn't a D1 player. (At least, I assume not. He certainly doesn't play like one. I assume he's the titular 4.5.) And your observation mirrors most of the others above. So your confusion confuses me.

Ah, my confusion is resolved.

 

[navigator]

Very consistent but the balls seemed very slow and loopy. Maybe it was just the video but nothing like the d1 teams I watch and have hit w (and they were taking it easy on me).

I got the impression from the "Former" in the video title that this guy played D1 tennis somewhere some time ago. I can't tell very well from the video but JR could be in his late-20s or maybe even 30s. Nevertheless, clearly he wasn't playing D1 tennis at the time of the video. My video interpretation skills aren't great but he looks to be a prototypical 5.0 player which is more-or-less what you'd expect from an under-35 former middling D1 player (there's a wide spectrum of D1 tennis, obviously) that was still playing some tennis. I think.

By the way, if you're in Richmond and interested in playing, let me know. I'm there a few times a year and love to play on the (free!) har tru courts at the Belmont Rec Center.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

The far court guy (blue shirt) hits his FH with 3.0 pace.
I literally know 3.0 guys who hit harder.
This really goes to show, the softer you hit, the higher your rank will go.

In tennis, there is no trophy for hitting hard.
Just for getting the ball in and winning points.

 

[Curious]

Is there something weird about Tim's forehand? Like too cramped up, a little stiff, extreme elbow bend.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

Looks like the 4.5 struggles getting depth on his shots when rallying with the D1 guy. This is a tell tale sign when the opponent is just better than you. However, the D1 guy is just better than me too, so I can’t say anything.

 

[MarinaHighTennis]

I got the impression from the "Former" in the video title that this guy played D1 tennis somewhere some time ago. I can't tell very well from the video but JR could be in his late-20s or maybe even 30s. Nevertheless, clearly he wasn't playing D1 tennis at the time of the video. My video interpretation skills aren't great but he looks to be a prototypical 5.0 player which is more-or-less what you'd expect from an under-35 former middling D1 player (there's a wide spectrum of D1 tennis, obviously) that was still playing some tennis. I think.

By the way, if you're in Richmond and interested in playing, let me know. I'm there a few times a year and love to play on the (free!) har tru courts at the Belmont Rec Center.

JR was the bench for uclas team until he quit and played club instead. Took the club to nationals and plays 5.0 leagues ATM. Nicknamed "OP Jr"

Tim is a losing 4.5 when it comes to real usta matches (pretty bad record) but he wins/does well in a lot of practice matches like this

 

[MotoboXer]

What racquet is JR's? He's kind of choked up on the handle for such a nice serve.