Again, ppppplease do NOT use poly on cross for gut hybrids

[PaulC]

Again, please do NOT use poly on cross for gut hybrids IF...

Again, please do NOT use poly on cross for gut hybrids IF.....

1. You're a big hitter who plays almost everyday
2. You usually string at a high tension (60lb+)
2. You cannot afford to restring every other week or less and seek for a long lasting combo that last for months

Even a cheap synthetic or multi as cross will do the same job and last much longer if you simply want to save a few bucks and get the same feel out of the gut main.

I showed one of these poly cross on gut folks these alternative combo and they like it right away after a few hits, wondering why the hell they waste $$ on their Luxilon crosses which last only a couple of weeks.

~ simply poor fellas misinformed by the pro-shop $$ seeking maniac stringer kids

Also, I showed them the poly main / gut cross combos that pros like Federer and Roddick use, they are amazed how much more comfortable than they thought it could be.

 

[Chopin]

Federer uses gut mains and poly crosses. A fair amount of pros use gut mains and poly crosses.

 

[Masamusou]

Again, pplease do NOT use poly on cross for gut hybrids

Even a cheap synthetic or multi as cross will do the same job and last much longer if you simply want to save a few bucks and get the same feel out of the gut main.

I showed one of these poly cross on gut folks these alternative combo and they like it right away after a few hits, wondering why the hell they waste $$ on their Luxilon crosses which last only a couple of weeks.

~ simply poor fellas misinformed by the pro-shop maniac stringer kids

Chopin is right that some pros do use gut mains and poly crosses, but they also have the advantage of being able to restring every day or 2. I use synthetic mains and poly crosses personally. Similar feel to poly mains and synthetic crosses. I get the same amount of playable life out of this set up. The poly mains/synthetic cross setup has lost elasticity and pop after about a week or two, my synthetic main/poly cross set up snaps in about the same time. So when the decision for me is use a set up I like better and replace it every two weeks when it snaps or use a set up I like less and cut the strings out every two weeks, it doesn't really make any sense for me to use the poly in the mains. The mains/crosses is a personal feel thing. I prefer the poly crosses personally; I know plenty of other people that can't stand the poly in the crosses. From a pure economic view, I get zero benefit from putting the poly in the mains, so I will stick with what I use. One key thing that a lot of people don't realize is that, get this... Just because the strings aren't broken, doesn't mean they are good to use... Things like tension loss, elasticity loss, etc. factor in to the decision of what to use.

 

[ChicagoJack]

PaulC -
uhmmm... I don't mean to be rude, but who elected you to be judge, jury, and excecutioner on what we should be using? I could be mis-understanding your premise or tone but seems like you are just declaring that your preference is the only rational choice. Anybody who chooses otherwise is just some poor, ill informed fella?
-Jack

 

[darkblue]

hello...fed uses VS Touch on the mains....

 

[LafayetteHitter]

We need to email Federer and let him know to stop using that combo then!

 

[PaulC]

just my expression of frustration here.....

If I offended anybody, I apologize cos it's not my intent.

I am no judge/expert and will not claim to be one.... I'm simply offering advice and warnings to those who haven't tried the alternatives.

It's just my expression of frustration as a weekend club assistant after witnessing some unnecessary waste of money (which often they don't have much) simply because they follow (or mislead by) their peer's choices or may be some star pros are doing that.

1. I said IF you enjoy the soft feel of the gut and simply wanted to save money by putting a non-gut string as cross, then poly may not be the answer.
-- It saws thru the mains and break the gut even faster, synthetic or multi may be a better choice AND should preserve the soft feel better.

2. My questions: What exactly are you trying to achieve or enhance by using poly on cross??

-- More Feel? (whole gut or multi on cross may do better)
-- More Power? (whole gut should also do better)
-- More Spin? (I'd argue poly on main do better as the main don't move and rip thru the ball firmer, assume you're using 17/18 gauge......then again maybe it's just me)

-- To make it last longer? (No doubt.....all poly or poly on main is the better choice)

So.....what thing(s) can't a cheaper synthetic/multi do on a gut main BUT have to be with the stiffer poly?

Alright, I gotta to be careful in citing Pro player names next time, I will take Federer out ....

(but even he uses the bluish Luxilon on main back then when he was using the black/yellow Pro Staff 90 at one point ........ I know many of you won't believe, just as when I said Sharapova actually had been using Prince Topspin plus 16 for quite some time, nobody would believe since she' not using it anymore now

Alright, back to the topic: All I am saying and questioning after I tried myself and witness a lot of unnecessary "quick snaps" is: why poly on gut main??

What can't the good old prince syn or OG sheep micro do on your expensive gut main but have to be this almighty poly ?

Then again, maybe it's just me......

So for those who are highly educated in tennis stringing, feel feel to inform/enlighten/educate me....

I know half a dozen of certified racquet stringers are also sharing my same questions.

Thanks in Advance for your inputs.

 

[ipod-upod]

I am not so educated on tennis stringing, and have only been using gut mains with poly crosses for a few of months, but I do notice that the mains do not move around so much (as if the poly holds them better?). That in itself would tend to extend the life of the gut.

 

[vinnier6]

hello...fed uses VS Touch on the mains....

vs is gut....no?

 

[Sixpointone]

Vinnier6, you are correct. Federer uses Babolat VS Natural Gut.

 

[mellofelow]

I am no judge/expert and will not claim to be one....

1. I said IF you enjoy the soft feel of the gut

Soft feel of gut??? Now I really question your expertise.

Unless you're talking about the soft feeling of my love-handles, then yes, my gut is pretty soft.:mrgreen:

 

[PaulC]

So gut is supposed to be stiff??

 

[Jasser]

I think the main problem with gut mains/poly crosses is that poly strings lose tension so much faster than gut. Federer switches to a new racquet at every ball change, so it's not an issue for him.

I really like the setup, actually. Back when I ordered my HPS 6.1 I had them put on a VS/ALU-Rough combo just for fun. I loved it for about 7-8 hours. After that it was total mush, and I had to cut it out.

My favorite now is Klip Legend/Gosen OG-Sheep. Plays great all the way from the first hit to when it finally breaks. Besides being cheaper it's also much easier to string, which is a nice bonus.

If money was not an issue (and if I had someone else to thread the crosses for me) I'd probably switch back. It did play nicely, and the strings NEVER moved.

Jason

 

[PaulC]

Thank you Jason.....

This answered/countered ipod-upod and Masamusou's points regarding the tension loss issues.

(also thanks both gentlemen for some serious and thoughtful discussions even though we may disagree

Poly actually lost tension relatively faster than guts.

But wow.....your set up actually last long enough that it become mushy and you have to cut it?

Uh.....what can I say, good for you

Again......I guess all these are all depending on different tensions, gauges and string surfaces combinations

Let's say we use a 15L gut main and a 18 poly like Klip K-Broom (I haven't try this yet), I suspect it may actually last long enough til it become mushy for me that I will have to cut it, given that I'd usually string it low at 55-57lbs on mid-sized frames.

 

[tedmeister]

What can't the good old prince syn or OG sheep micro do on your expensive gut main but have to be this almighty poly ?

This would waste a good half set of gut, especially in the case of the PSG. This would deaden the gut and take away its punch/power. The most expensive string around will just play similar to an Nxt max M/lightning xx Xs combo. If you are one of the guys who hate gut's power, then the nat gut/Gosen combination will work for you. The reason polys are installed in the crosses with gut is to keep some of natural gut's power while achieving the control that can only be had with the better polys we have today. Most synthetics just don't snap back fast enough and thus prevents the natural gut from working efficiently. The decreased need to readjust strings between points is just an added bonus.

 

[aidenous]

Ok, now I'm confused. I read so many good things about gut/alu rough that I wanted to give it a try. I just received it but haven't strung it yet. I got Klip legend 17 and ALU Rough. I have tried vs with Babolat excel and loved it. It lasted 3 months. So, is everyone now saying this is a waste of money and won't last a week?

 

[Masamusou]

I'm a bit confused here. How does that counter my point? Jason just stated that poly loses tension faster than gut (which is true), so if you put the poly in the mains, after about 5 hours you will likely have mains that are a much lower tension and lower elasticity than you started with. If you aren't affected by the tension loss and can play with a racquet no matter what the strings feel like then by all means, you get an economic benefit from the poly mains, but I can tell when the strings have lost their playability (once the strings lose tension, the elasticity is so much lower that it almost doesn't matter what strings are in there because some of the properties that you wanted in the string initially are for the most part gone). Not sure how that counters my "playable life" argument. So, as I said before, if a set up loses so much tension that it basically becomes unplayable to me in the same amount of time as something that I feel plays better, and breaks in the same amount of time (costing the same amount), I don't see any arguments in favor of the poly mains. Sure, the strings would probably last longer with poly mains, but after about a week or two I wouldn't use the racquets anyway because the strings would feel like crap. I would just cut the strings out and have it restrung, so it doesn't make any sense for me to use the poly mains when I prefer the feel that I get from the poly in the crosses. Hey, if you want your racquet that you originally strung at 60 lbs to be around 40 lbs with only a percentage of the initial elasticity, go for it, but I prefer to play with strings that still have the properties I originally bought them for.

 

[fantom]

I recently bought a racquet that had Bab. VS Team 17 guage in the mains and Lux BBALU in the crosses. I absolutely loved it.

The feel was much better than any setup I've tried in the past.

The gut mains NEVER moved. The ALU locked them in. This was the case until the gut finally broke.

This combo lasted much longer than any other that I've tried. I usually break a string once every 3-4 weeks. I easily got 2 months out of the gut-poly combo.

 

[PaulC]

Masamusou, I guess we can only agree that the acceptable level of tension loss differs between different players.

Let's say I do poly main with gut X at 54-57lb, and it only loss 1 1/2 lb or at most 2lb over 2 months time, that seems to be nothing to me, and playability don't suffer too much for me, as I prefer lower tension on mid/mid+ frames with 18 main patterns anyway. (Head/Dunlop)

But for you, if you usually do 60-65+lb on a open pattern frame, and it lost 3-4lb (using same percentage) over the same time, I guess it will become pretty unplayable for you.

But then even when you put poly on cross, you are also subjected to same the higher tension loss of poly, and very often, I find that a decent synthetic cross will keep tension better.

So I speculate lower tension loss may not be the main reason you like it.

I guess Tedmeister and Fantom's points regarding Control/Power/Feel that the better poly nowdays offers kinda answer my questions.....

But then at least one thing my personal experience suggest otherwise, the gut mains move just the same on poly cross .... again, maybe because I usually string at lower tensions. (but the poly won't move much if put as main at the same tension)

Maybe because the Luxilon BB Original poly I used 2 years+ ago was not as good as the ALU Rough etc. nowadays?

 

[PaulC]

Disclaimer I added at the 1st thread

Again, please do NOT use poly on cross for gut hybrids IF.....

1. You're a big hitter who plays almost everyday
2. You usually string at a high tension (60lb+)
2. You cannot afford to restring every other week or less and seek for a long lasting combo that last for months

 

[Masamusou]

Masamusou, I guess we can only agree that the acceptable level of tension loss differs between different players.

Let's say I do poly main with gut X at 54-57lb, and it only loss 1 1/2 lb or at most 2lb over 2 months time, that seems to be nothing to me, and playability don't suffer too much for me, as I prefer lower tension on mid/mid+ frames with 18 main patterns anyway. (Head/Dunlop)

But for you, if you usually do 60-65+lb on a open pattern frame, and it lost 3-4lb (using same percentage) over the same time, I guess it will become pretty unplayable for you.

But then even when you put poly on cross, you are also subjected to same the higher tension loss of poly, and very often, I find that a decent synthetic cross will keep tension better.

So I speculate lower tension loss may not be the main reason you like it.

I guess Tedmeister and Fantom's points regarding Control/Power/Feel that the better poly nowdays offers kinda answer my questions.....

But then at least one thing my personal experience suggest otherwise, the gut mains move just the same on poly cross .... again, maybe because I usually string at lower tensions. (but the poly won't move much if put as main at the same tension)

Maybe because the Luxilon BB Original poly I used 2 years+ ago was not as good as the ALU Rough etc. nowadays?

The biggest problem with that argument is that strings lose WAY more tension than 1-2 pounds over 2 months. Strings will generally lose 5-10% of the "strung" tension within the first 24 hours. After that is slows down a little, but if you string at 55 or so (around what I strung at in my old MW200G 90's and now string in my Tour 90's) the tension will be less than 50 after a day without playing. The tension loss stabilizes after that and it drops slowly from then on, but in fact, the tension does drop surprisingly quickly. Just buy a stringmeter and test for youself if you don't believe me. The stringmeter is by no means a perfect test for tension, but using it on a consistent basis will let you determine (fairly accurately) the amount of tension loss over time. Some people use the general rule that once the strings lose 20% of the initial tension, they cut and restring. Other people don't notice that big of a drop. I would easily notice a drop like that, therefore, since I have to change the strings by then anyway, I figure that I might as well use something that (to me) plays better and more consistently. Notice, the feel difference is based on my personal tests back to back using 2 C-10's, same weight, balance, swingweight, everything identical except that one had poly mains and synthetic crosses, while the other had synthetic mains and poly crosses. The mains provide (roughly) 60-80% of the feel of the racquet. If you set the racquet up to be strung at 55lbs. When you finish stringing the mains will probably be somewhere around 52-55lbs, but the crosses will be more like 40-45, so a percentage tension loss in the crosses correlates to a smaller tension loss by lbs than it would in the mains. I agree on the string movement, I get plenty of string movement with my poly crosses, it doesn't bother me, strings move, it just happens.

 

[ChicagoJack]

PaulC- After you've clarified your intentions a bit more, I see you are just aiming to save people a buck or two if possible. Fair 'nuff, that's a noble cause, and we're square. No offense meant and non taken.

1. From where I sit, theres a few things pushing the hybrid craze. One group experimenting with the Poly/Gut combination are doing so because they are hardcore poly fans who are getting hip to the harshness of it. There are simply no multiflament nylons that will be easier on the arm than natural gut. So they do have a very strong argument here.

2. Then there are the hardcore gut fans, who want to something not so expensive as a full gut job, and will last a bit longer. Generally speaking, poly will last longer the Multifil nylons, so they make a pretty strong case as well. Your point about poly sawing thru the gut mains, however is a factor worth considering.

3. Then there are folks like me who are not clearly devoted to any particular kind of string, who see good and bad qualities to each, and are thinking, why not try both?

4. In terms of saving a few bucks, you can get prepakaged Hybrid/Polys (Klip-Xplosive for example) for $20.00 I'm currently spending $14.50 for X1-Biphase, and restringing once a week. I love that stuff, but fiqure out per month, then per year cost and it adds up quick. So If I can get pre-packaged Poly/Gut for a little bit more, that has my attention. When I've had a few more weeks or months with Klip X-plosive , I'll feel confindent enough to chime in with my two cents on it, in terms of durabilty and playability trade offs. Right now, I can tell you.. its working pretty good.

5. Regarding your example in post # 19. I don't have time to lay out all the documentation for you, but I can asssure you, that any string that lasts for two months is going to experience WAY more than tension loss than a couple pounds over that time period.

Best regards to you, and take care
-Jack

 

[PaulC]

Masamusou and ChicagoJack,

Thanks for your inputs, I think the reason that I experience less tension loss than you guys do is that I hit with less spin (and/or power, plus I only hit 2-3 times a week

I agree the Kilp X-plosive Combo is a good one although I tried it with poly as main.

Best regards, and have a good one everybody!

 

[ChicagoJack]

Back atcha paul, have a great weekend out there in sunny LA
-Jack

 

[monologuist]

Again, please do NOT use poly on cross for gut hybrids IF.....

1. You're a big hitter who plays almost everyday
2. You usually string at a high tension (60lb+)
2. You cannot afford to restring every other week or less and seek for a long lasting combo that last for months

Even a cheap synthetic or multi as cross will do the same job and last much longer if you simply want to save a few bucks and get the same feel out of the gut main.

I showed one of these poly cross on gut folks these alternative combo and they like it right away after a few hits, wondering why the hell they waste $$ on their Luxilon crosses which last only a couple of weeks.

~ simply poor fellas misinformed by the pro-shop $$ seeking maniac stringer kids

Also, I showed them the poly main / gut cross combos that pros like Federer and Roddick use, they are amazed how much more comfortable than they thought it could be.

??????????
What are you talking about?

The reason I ever use poly crosses with gut, and probably most people, is not simply to save money. It is to :
a) Temper the power of the gut
b) Reduce stringmovement from the gut mains, which improves spin and stringbed consistency and durability as well.

If you use a poly that holds tension well like Signum Pro Plasma, this can be a great hybrid, not only for the pros.

I've never heard of people using poly crosses with gut mains in order to save money. If you were going to do that, most people know to use a soft and cheap synthetic gut as a cross.

 

[PaulC]

Precisely...

Precisely. That's the exact point of the original thread.

The big-hitting poor kid I mentioned was misled by the stringer into believing that the $$ gut/poly combo will do good and last longer for him.

He didn't doubt it a single bit, and spent all his hard-earn part-time job money for 3 consecutive string-jobs (all different brands and strings sold by the stringer) in a month, and thought that it's normal and a good one for him.

I would not argue any further about the feel/spin/power issues, as shown above, there are so many variables.

But for a guy like him who seek for a more durable combo, gut/poly failed badly for him.

Now, of course per my introduction, he's using a poly/syn combo and is having good results without any noticable lost of comforts and power as of this afternoon. (we will see how long the new combo last for him this time)

 

[joe1987]

Don't we all wanna be federer? So just let us be. Some things are done without a reason and some fantastic feeling after hitting that green fuzzy ball is worth all that money.

 

[monologuist]

4. In terms of saving a few bucks, you can get prepakaged Hybrid/Polys (Klip-Xplosive for example) for $20.00 I'm currently spending $14.50 for X1-Biphase, and restringing once a week. I love that stuff, but fiqure out per month, then per year cost and it adds up quick. So If I can get pre-packaged Poly/Gut for a little bit more, that has my attention. When I've had a few more weeks or months with Klip X-plosive , I'll feel confindent enough to chime in with my two cents on it, in terms of durabilty and playability trade offs. Right now, I can tell you.. its working pretty good.


Klip X-PLosive is a really great hybrid, either way youy decide to hybrid it. It should be cheaper though, to just get a full pack of Legend gut, and a full pack of K-Boom (for 2 hybrid jobs) than getting the X-Plosive hybrid set.

 

[ace of spades]

Though it wasant gut, i tried to switch my setup around, M>X, X>M. Broke in about 20 minutes but what did i expect?

 

[PaulC]

Ace,

I assume you broke the Main?

If so, try the extreme, go with Hurricane 16.....
(if this don't hurt your arm

But if you broke the cross (that happens with poly mains too).......try OG Sheep Micro 16/17

 

[rfederer32291]

Ok, now I'm confused. I read so many good things about gut/alu rough that I wanted to give it a try. I just received it but haven't strung it yet. I got Klip legend 17 and ALU Rough. I have tried vs with Babolat excel and loved it. It lasted 3 months. So, is everyone now saying this is a waste of money and won't last a week?

its just that fact that durability sucks with gut main/alu crosses

 

[volleyman]

its just that fact that durability sucks with gut main/alu crosses

Not neccessarily. I've been keeping track of how much play I get out of various string set ups, and the last gut mains/poly crosses hybrid I used (BDE Rallye 15L/Klip Kboom 16) in a 16x19 pattern 100 in2 head did pretty well. Here's a general longevity comparison, from longest lasting to shortest lived. I've noted where I used string savers, which seems to improve string durabilty for me.

BDE Rallye Gut 15L/Gosen OG Sheep Micro 16 (string savers)
Tie Between:
a) BDE Rallye Gut 15L/Klip K-Boom 16
b) Laserfibre Laserlite 17L
c) Yonex 850 Super Tour Pro Spin 16
Head FXP 17
Gosen Polyon Comfort 17/Technifbre E-matrix 17
Gamma Revelation 17
Tie Between:
a) Yonex 880 Ti Soft 16L
b) Technifbre E-matrix 17/Gosen Polyon Comfort 17
Laserfibre Classic Syn Gut 17

Note that I didn't use string savers with the BDE Rallye Gut 15L/Klip K-Boom 16 hybrid, and it still did as well as the Yonex 850 Super Tour Pro Spin 16. It cost more, but for me, played better.

I would assume that using the K-boom in the mains would have made the strings last longer before breaking, but I would suspect that the combo would lose playability well before it reached breaking, meaning it's playable life would likely be close to that of the gut/poly hybrid.

And, remember to take all of this with a grain salt. This how things worked for me with one particular racquet. Different people will get different results even with the same racquet, so add in the racquet factor, and things get even murkier. Consider this just another data point.

 

[rfederer32291]

but placing the string savers for me would be diffrerent because i probably have a different sweetspot than you and i probably hit the ball differently from you, so it wont always work. i would have to try out myself to see what would happen.