Anyone else get annoyed by bum commentators criticizing the pros?

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Fedfan34

Guest
Watching Federer v Sock, and these two bum commentators whose names I can't even be bothered to google are harping on Sock being too passive, too whimpy, needs to take it to Federer etc. its like, Jack give them the racket, maybe they'd like to try?
 
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Fedfan34

Guest
They just criticized Sock for hitting an "Unforced error off his forehand" off a Federer return...no...Federer hit a great backhand return that moved Sock and forced the error. Smh
 

killerboi2

Hall of Fame
Guy is supposed to be a millionaire pro and he is playing that bad? Any mentally sane person should be criticizing him.
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
Guy is supposed to be a millionaire pro and he is playing that bad? Any mentally sane person should be criticizing him.

Exactly. And many of the commentators are hardly bums. Boris, Mats, J-Mac, Courier and Fred Stolle are all tennis commentators and between them, they have 24 majors.

Anyway, if a player is playing like crap on the pro tour, why shouldn't a commentator tell it like it is?
 

Red Rick

Bionic Poster
Oh and on criticizing players. They don't do it quite enough. If only there were a sports channel that made satire out of flaming sports players while they're playing live. Would be fun.
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
Watching Federer v Sock, and these two bum commentators whose names I can't even be bothered to google are harping on Sock being too passive, too whimpy, needs to take it to Federer etc. its like, Jack give them the racket, maybe they'd like to try?
I've had steam coming out of my ears recently with some of the new British clowns on Tennis TV which is probably who you are hearing. They are trying to sound smart or something by being critical and then usually the fools get proven wrong in the match they are covering. If you don't know what you are doing, stick to the positive. If you know what you are doing stick to the positive. If player A hits a hard ball deep and player B doesn't get it back in play it doesn't means player B stinks. Now if player A hits an absolute sitter then you have to call it. These British clowns have no idea.
 
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Fedfan34

Guest
What else would they talk about? They're not paid to sit silently with their thumbs up their butts.
Its not so much criticism as the arrogant and often times wrong nature of what they're calling that irritates.
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
I'm more annoyed by them gasping and jizzing all over and overrating certain players
Robbie's article picking his favorites for 2017 is going to be laughably wrong. That said he's usually fine, but when you have that kind of thinking underpinning your commentary then of course you might overrate some players form. The real story is their struggle to get back to form (Djokovic). Some very interesting commentary could be done.
 

Gazelle

G.O.A.T.
I've had steam coming out of my ears recently with some of the new British clowns on Tennis TV which is probably who you are hearing. They are trying to sound smart or something by being critical and then usually the fools get proven wrong in the match they are covering. If you don't know what you are doing, stick to the positive. If you know what you are doing stick to the positive. If player A hits a hard ball deep and player B doesn't get it back in play it doesn't means player B stinks. Now if player A hits an absolute sitter then you have to call it. These British clowns have no idea.

Those clowns' only purpose is to make the notion of supporting sir Andy Murray sound not ridiculous. They have actually been quite succesful in doing this, already 1 or 2 guys on this forum have fallen for the hype.
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
Those clowns' only purpose is to make the notion of supporting sir Andy Murray sound not ridiculous. They have actually been quite succesful in doing this, already 1 or 2 guys on this forum have fallen for the hype.
I don't think I've had the pleasure of hearing the infamous Sky commentators too much. These guys aren't on normal TV I'm talking about. They just give some extra court coverage away from the main courts.

Rio commentary killed me with Thiem. They gave absolutely not credit to Thiem for several matches and then stated all of the opponents were playing quite poorly. One of them was a former pro, but evidently fell in line with the newbie and didn't know much about clay.

Its sad. Some of these guys have been quite good. There was a Scottish commentator on last year who also did US Open. Very good stuff, but not a former pro, he brought a lot without over stepping the bounds. Now I'm hearing some of the worst commentary with the worst British accents known to mankind. The ignorant chavs have invaded tennis commentary.:eek:
 

JMR

Hall of Fame
its like, Jack give them the racket, maybe they'd like to try?

Asking "Can you do better?" is never a relevant response to professional criticism in any field -- sports, literature, music, movies, food, politics, etc. The critic's personal capacity as a performer in the field doesn't matter. The qualities that count are a thorough understanding of the field, a reasonably fair and unbiased outlook, and the ability to make and express accurate, insightful judgments.
 
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Fedfan34

Guest
Asking "Can you do better?" is never a relevant response to professional criticism in any field -- sports, literature, music, movies, food, politics, etc. The critic's personal capacity as a performer in the field doesn't matter. The qualities that count are a thorough understanding of the field, a reasonably fair and unbiased outlook, and the ability to make and express accurate, insightful judgments.
And seeing as they have none of those qualities, the next reasonable request is "Can you do better?"

Edit: I disagree with your premise. The most thorough understanding of a field is given by the capacity to perform in it. Understanding is not a passive process of study, its an active one of learning through doing. This is why Sampras's commentary in a slam finals match is worth infinitely more than yours or mine, however astute a student of the game we may be.
 

StanTheMan

Hall of Fame
Yes, that's the most annoying thing there is

not that i'm expecting them to pick up the racket or anything, but come on, you gotta acknowledge how hard it is to play at this level, specially against the GOAT, and sometimes they talk like it's easy to play and all the players are stupid.
 

Candide

Hall of Fame
Yep, McEnroe could use a tall glass of humility. You'd think he never made a mistake in his career. But the worst of all was Wally Masur when he was on the mike in Oz. My god talk about condescending. The guy was a journeyman with 3 titles to adorn his whole career. He talks like he was Sampras and everyone playing is a chump. In fairness to Courier he has a high degree of respect for all the players.

I also can't stand the fawning that some people go into for Federer. When he does something amazing fine but when they're drooling over how he walks and bounces the ball it's just uncomfortable for everyone. Bruce McAvaney is a typical culprit.
 

JonnyMac

Hall of Fame
I've had steam coming out of my ears recently with some of the new British clowns on Tennis TV which is probably who you are hearing. They are trying to sound smart or something by being critical and then usually the fools get proven wrong in the match they are covering. If you don't know what you are doing, stick to the positive. If you know what you are doing stick to the positive. If player A hits a hard ball deep and player B doesn't get it back in play it doesn't means player B stinks. Now if player A hits an absolute sitter then you have to call it. These British clowns have no idea.


All Brits are CLOWNS:mad: !

You called it Meles ! - I HATE!:mad: clowning Brits !

Clown-british.jpg


Above, a RUBBISH ! :mad: clown Brit Bin Man Fan.
 
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JMR

Hall of Fame
And seeing as they have none of those qualities, the next reasonable request is "Can you do better?"

No, if the critic lacks either the knowledge or the temperament to be a good critic, then the reasonable response is either, "You're fired" (if you are running the media outlet), or "I will ignore you" (if you're a fan). The critic's personal skills in the field remain irrelevant.

Edit: I disagree with your premise. The most thorough understanding of a field is given by the capacity to perform in it. Understanding is not a passive process of study, its an active one of learning through doing.

Now you are trying to change the argument by asserting that a critic can't have developed the necessary understanding of a field without having participated in it as a performer at a very high level. Although that claim would require a field-by-field analysis to be comprehensively refuted, I think it's safe to declare that it's generally wrong. There have been lots of excellent critics and experts in many fields, including tennis, who have never been professional performers in those fields. You are confusing the type of learning necessary to understand tennis with the type of learning necessary to play tennis. It's true that you can't acquire actual tennis skills from reading books and watching matches on TV, but that doesn't mean you can't develop a deep awareness of what the players are doing.

The reason that televised sports originally introduced former athletes as "color commentators" alongside the play-by-play announcers was not that the broadcast professionals didn't know what they were talking about. The belief was that fans would enjoy the different -- not better or wiser -- behind-the-scenes perspective that the ex-jocks could provide. Apparently some fans now have arrived at the conclusion that only former athletes have the right or the ability to comment negatively on the work of current athletes, but that's just not correct.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
I won't have that ! Anyone from TTW could just pick up a racket and win a slam !

Especially against The Bum Murray - Anyone could beat him !

I'm defo going deep at Wimbledon this year !

How do you enter Wimbledon BTW ?

Knowing someone who knows someone who knows someone who is a distant relative of a member of the AELTC may be your best bet! ;)
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Yep, McEnroe could use a tall glass of humility. You'd think he never made a mistake in his career. But the worst of all was Wally Masur when he was on the mike in Oz. My god talk about condescending. The guy was a journeyman with 3 titles to adorn his whole career. He talks like he was Sampras and everyone playing is a chump. In fairness to Courier he has a high degree of respect for all the players.

I also can't stand the fawning that some people go into for Federer. When he does something amazing fine but when they're drooling over how he walks and bounces the ball it's just uncomfortable for everyone. Bruce McAvaney is a typical culprit.

I still smile at the guy who hosted the Hopman Cup this year. He could never make any mention of Federer without preceding it with 'The Great'. He practically swooned and almost genuflected to him when interviewing him after a match! ;)
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
I don't think I've had the pleasure of hearing the infamous Sky commentators too much. These guys aren't on normal TV I'm talking about. They just give some extra court coverage away from the main courts.

Rio commentary killed me with Thiem. They gave absolutely not credit to Thiem for several matches and then stated all of the opponents were playing quite poorly. One of them was a former pro, but evidently fell in line with the newbie and didn't know much about clay.

Its sad. Some of these guys have been quite good. There was a Scottish commentator on last year who also did US Open. Very good stuff, but not a former pro, he brought a lot without over stepping the bounds. Now I'm hearing some of the worst commentary with the worst British accents known to mankind. The ignorant chavs have invaded tennis commentary.:eek:

Names please, names!!! :eek:;)
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Those clowns' only purpose is to make the notion of supporting sir Andy Murray sound not ridiculous. They have actually been quite succesful in doing this, already 1 or 2 guys on this forum have fallen for the hype.

Personally, I haven't fallen for any of this hype. I already knew that the notion of supporting Sir Andy, knighted or unknighted, was far from being ridiculous. :cool::)
 
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Fedfan34

Guest
No, if the critic lacks either the knowledge or the temperament to be a good critic, then the reasonable response is either, "You're fired" (if you are running the media outlet), or "I will ignore you" (if you're a fan). The critic's personal skills in the field remain irrelevant.



Now you are trying to change the argument by asserting that a critic can't have developed the necessary understanding of a field without having participated in it as a performer at a very high level. Although that claim would require a field-by-field analysis to be comprehensively refuted, I think it's safe to declare that it's generally wrong. There have been lots of excellent critics and experts in many fields, including tennis, who have never been professional performers in those fields. You are confusing the type of learning necessary to understand tennis with the type of learning necessary to play tennis. It's true that you can't acquire actual tennis skills from reading books and watching matches on TV, but that doesn't mean you can't develop a deep awareness of what the players are doing.

The reason that televised sports originally introduced former athletes as "color commentators" alongside the play-by-play announcers was not that the broadcast professionals didn't know what they were talking about. The belief was that fans would enjoy the different -- not better or wiser -- behind-the-scenes perspective that the ex-jocks could provide. Apparently some fans now have arrived at the conclusion that only former athletes have the right or the ability to comment negatively on the work of current athletes, but that's just not correct.


What I said was "The most thorough understanding of a field is given by the capacity to perform in it." I never made a comment about critics being incapable of having developed the necessary understanding of a field without having professionally participated. What I did say was that those who have actually participated in the field and acquired a degree of excellence in it have greater understanding than that of the critic.

Usually what a critic brings is eloquence and an ability to make one's observations salient. What a professional, especially a top professional, brings is the highest degree of understanding proven through experience. Bud Collins or even Brad Gilbert may be great communicators and eloquently describe the qualities needed to win a grand slam final, but Pete Sampras, whatever his communicative abilities are, inherently understands these qualities to a far greater degree because he embodies them. He won 14 times. Neither Gilbert nor Collins would dispute this.

If you combine an excellent former professional with great communicative skills you have the zenith of commentary. I think Andre Agassi offered one of the best commentaries in recent years during the Federer - Roddick US Open match of 2007. He described the unique challenges Federer poses, some of the ways Roddick could improve his backhand, and gave perspective on the dynamics of competitive matchplay. A non-professional, and even a non-all time great would not have been able to offer such illumination. Agassi's unique experience having played Federer, having unique hand eye coordination and ball striking abilities on both wings, and his breadth of experience winning high level grand slam matches gave his commentary extra weight.

This is a side point, but what I particularly enjoyed about Agassi's commentary was that he offered incredibly insightful, salient points without a hint or taste of criticism. For example, when talking about Roddick's backhand, he didn't deride it as weak, but instead offered suggestions on improvement, talking about the common strands in all great two handed backhands. Or when discussing Fed, he didn't gush, he offered very clear reasons as to why he was such a unique talent. The discussion about how Federer times the ball was eye opening. All in all, great great commentary.
 
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Meles

Bionic Poster
I still smile at the guy who hosted the Hopman Cup this year. He could never make any mention of Federer without preceding it with 'The Great'. He practically swooned and almost genuflected to him when interviewing him after a match! ;)
LULZ who was that? I believe that was a former pro... no. Roger Rasheed was commentating.:eek: Baby Fed's former coach.:D
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
And seeing as they have none of those qualities, the next reasonable request is "Can you do better?"

Edit: I disagree with your premise. The most thorough understanding of a field is given by the capacity to perform in it. Understanding is not a passive process of study, its an active one of learning through doing. This is why Sampras's commentary in a slam finals match is worth infinitely more than yours or mine, however astute a student of the game we may be.
So this then applies to coaching?
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
LULZ who was that? I believe that was a former pro... no. Roger Rasheed was commentating.:eek: Baby Fed's former coach.:D

Here's a vid of him interviewing "The Great Roger Federer" just after he and Bencic lost in the semis. He thanks "the Great Roger Federer" for deigning to make his presence known in lil' ol' Perth and then bids farewell to " the Great Roger Federer and Belinda Bencic!" :D

 
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Meles

Bionic Poster
In some respects, yes. Notice how Novak's results improved drastically in slams after hiring Boris as his coach.
Vallverdu may be one of the best and he is different. Bresnik with Thiem.:confused: I think their is a case for what you say, but one size does not fit all in commentary or coaching. Many commies are former pros, and they are not all good. Jimmy Connors sort of stands out as a top player who maybe was not the ultimate coach or commentator.
 
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Fedfan34

Guest
Vallverdu may be one of the best and he is different. Bresnik with Thiem.:confused: I think their is a case for what you say, but one size does not fit all in commentary or coaching. Many commies are former pros, and they are not all good. Jimmy Connors sort of stands out as a top player who maybe was not the ultimate coach or commentator.
I agree, what I said was that you get the best of the best when you have a great pro who has the ability to communicate his insights.
 

stringertom

Bionic Poster
I won't have that ! Anyone from TTW could just pick up a racket and win a slam !

Especially against The Bum Murray - Anyone could beat him !

I'm defo going deep at Wimbledon this year !

How do you enter Wimbledon BTW ?
You stand in a queue on Church Road.
 
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