D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
just go to a local junior academy... the college bound teens can all beat 3.5's
the good ones will beat 4.5's
Are males ranked 3.5 to 4.0 weaker than a WTA player?
- Thread starter flargosa
- Start date
the good ones will beat 4.5's
robbo1970
Hall of Fame
I think some people have completely misunderstood the OP's question.
I believe what the OP is raising, is the fact that pro's use racquets that weigh a certain amount because they have both the fitness, stamina, speed and ability to use that racquet to it's full potential.
Whereas a decent recreational player cannot be expected to have those attributes at the same level. Therefore, rather than male recreational players using 12oz+ racquets, would something proportionately lighter, in line with their strength, speed and fitness, actually be more appropriate and compliment them better than wielding a heavy racquet (by modern standards). I think there's a firm argument to say yes.
To someone who is less fit, less strong, less fast and with a lesser ability to a pro who uses a 12oz+ stick, using something around 11-11.5oz will probably feel the same. What I mean is, if a reasonable recreational player is using a 12oz+ stick, that is about the same as pro using a 14oz+ stick......which to my knowledge, none of the current pro's do.
I think that's what the OP is getting at anyway.
I believe what the OP is raising, is the fact that pro's use racquets that weigh a certain amount because they have both the fitness, stamina, speed and ability to use that racquet to it's full potential.
Whereas a decent recreational player cannot be expected to have those attributes at the same level. Therefore, rather than male recreational players using 12oz+ racquets, would something proportionately lighter, in line with their strength, speed and fitness, actually be more appropriate and compliment them better than wielding a heavy racquet (by modern standards). I think there's a firm argument to say yes.
To someone who is less fit, less strong, less fast and with a lesser ability to a pro who uses a 12oz+ stick, using something around 11-11.5oz will probably feel the same. What I mean is, if a reasonable recreational player is using a 12oz+ stick, that is about the same as pro using a 14oz+ stick......which to my knowledge, none of the current pro's do.
I think that's what the OP is getting at anyway.
prjacobs
Hall of Fame
I think that ratings can be very subjective. As can opinions here on the forum [emoji4]. Last year I played in a 5.0 league and made the playoffs. I would've never normally joined such a high level league, because I'm not a legit 5.0 player. However I'd beaten other players in that 5.0 league so I jumped in at that level. So, a 30-4 record in his 4.0 league is what it is.
Back to the original post about strength and racquet weight. As a much younger man, I ran 36 miles a week and bench pressed 300 lbs, when I weighed 165. My point is - I was very strong and fit. I also played a lot of golf. One day at the driving range, I was hitting my 3 wood off the grass. My typical distance was 220-230 yards. As I was hitting, the 75 year old pro came over next to me and started hitting. I started leaning into my shots and hitting them as good and as long as I could. I wanted to see how good this old pro was. He just kept taking these easy looking swings and was outhitting me by easily 25 yards. My obvious point is that tennis isn't about strength in the sense of muscling the ball. Great technique and relaxation translates into racquet head speed.
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gplracer
Hall of Fame
You are absolutely correct but..... strength does play a factor. Being stronger does help you hit the ball harder to a certain point. My son is 14 years old and 6'2". He can hit his first serve well over 100mph. That said he has not yet grown all the way into his body. He will hit the ball harder as he becomes stronger and more fit. After a certain point it is technique and not being stronger.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
let's ignore consistency for a moment...
the multiplicative factor here is the actual skill level (timing, technique, etc...)
if you have a man that let's has 100 units of "tennis strength"
then you have a girl that has has 60 units of "tennis strength"
but due to bad timing & technique, the man can only harness 50% of his "tennis strength"
and the girl due to good timing & technique, can harness 90% of her "tennis strength"
that's how a girl is now "stronger" (in tennis terms) than a man.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
gplracer
Hall of Fame
I agree 100%. I am just saying that my son does not have the fitnes/strength to drive himself a foot off the ground when serving like Federer. Granted his technique is not as good either. But even if it was it would not happen. He is like a big puppy that is not quite 100% developed because he is not an adult. Has has grown the 6'2" at 14 years old. I do agree with your example.
One of my good tennis buds has a son of 15 who just turned 6'7". Dad is 6', mom is 5'8", so the genes came from somewhere. Little bro at 14 is 5'9". Growth spurts have the older kid playing likea 4.5 one day, then like a bad 4.0 the next. His brother plays like a mid 4.0 every day, no growth spurt in sight.
Both went to Cuba last year to play for the US National Junior Baseball Team, but the older has since dropped baseball in favor of tennis, No.3 for Berkeley High.
macattack
Professional
Don't worry about. Not really your fault. You wind these guys up and they just go for days without looking back.
Power Player
Bionic Poster
Sweet video. Almost surreal setting.
I played a lower ranked WTA player, not famous, but she had points. What I dealt with was what Andy did, except he saw it at an even higher level. They hit the ball into deep corners and it's just tough to really get control back once that happens. I hit a few winners, but they were low % and so essentially, they were worthless points. Andy is a much better player than me and you could see he was out of his groove, making bad decisions like crashing net behind a soft approach..etc.
Recently played a D1 girl. She did not have the same laser depth into the corners, but her stamina and fitness was incredible and she got everything back with depth and good spin. I would equate her to a very good 5.0 male. As for racquets, she used a stock APD. I wouldn't put too much stock into what weight a good female player uses. The weight of a frame is pretty personal. The benefit of a heavier frame for me is easier power and better feel, but too heavy and I lose RHS. Too light and I expend too much energy. Everyone is different there.
Tommy Haas
Hall of Fame
Let's flip the question around. Would a male college player be able to beat the Williams sisters. McEnroe once said any player worth his salt could and that was during the sisters prime.
Back to the original question, I think Radwanska would bagel most of us on the court, but we would easily beat her in arm wrestling.
Back to the original question, I think Radwanska would bagel most of us on the court, but we would easily beat her in arm wrestling.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
n8dawg6
Legend
doesnt matter!i wonder how heavy her shots are, her arms doesn't look that muscular.
Moveforwardalways
Hall of Fame
Serena is 5'9" and 156 lbs. She could not out bench most guys.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
Doubles
Legend
Having consistently worked out for the past 5 years, and seeing all different sorts of people in and out of the gym, I wouldn't be surprised if she could out bench any average joe on the street.
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
What do you think she squats/deadlifts? Couple girls at my gym deadlift 225+ and don't look enormous.
One of my friends from high school is a competitive body builder, looks normal in street clothes and she deadlifts 315+. But I'm sure Serena doesn't train like that.
J
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
definitely out bench the average skinny-jean-wearing-joe...
J011yroger
Talk Tennis Guru
I have no idea what you are trying to say. There's absolutely nothing subjective about a ranking based on the match results - and the player in question got his 4.5 ranking based exactly on that, match results. Sure, it is theoretically possible to play against 3.0 players in 4.0 league (or as in your example perhaps some 3.5 players in 5.0 league) - but beating those players senseless would not earn you a bump to 4.5. You can question his record or play however you want, because your opinion is indeed very subjective, but that has nothing to do with reality/actual ranking.I think that ratings can be very subjective. As can opinions here on the forum. Last year I played in a 5.0 league and made the playoffs. I would've never normally joined such a high level league, because I'm not a legit 5.0 player. However I'd beaten other players in that 5.0 league so I jumped in at that level. So, a 30-4 record in his 4.0 league is what it is.
No, you don't get it.
Playing 'other inflated 4.0 guys' implies that, in your opinion of course, he played folks that rated themselves at 4.0 but were actually way lower than that. Well, the algorithm that bumped him to 4.5 at the end of the season does not care how a given player ranked himself - it only cares about actual result. You can rank yourself 5.0 but if you can't beat 3.5 player the algorithm will fairly quickly re-adjust your ranking to a proper level, and that proper level is then used to calculate rankings of that player's opponent. Which is why a ranking based on match play is fairly accurate, no matter what the initial self-ratings of players were. It is very, very difficult to get bumped to 4.5 if you played only/mostly against 3.0/3.5 players - so the fact that he did get bumped is a pretty good indication that his opponents were mostly solid 4.0.
Doubles
Legend
I'd bet Serena doesn't squat more than 225, but is likely doing higher rep sets which would result in a relatively impressive 1 rep max. With that said, Serena likely doesn't train for pure strength, so it's also likely that she squats less than 100 lbs but does jump squats to improve explosive strength.
Praetorian
Professional
It does to those that truly doesn't understand the mechanics in a tennis stroke. LOL
Praetorian
Professional
Finally another individual that make sense on this forum/topic.
I've had a similar experience except with my little younger brother. I was/am taller, stronger, and more athletic in every measurable way, even if you account for age differences. I was 5 years older than him, and even when I was in High School, he'd be able to out hit me (though I refused to admit it at the time), in ground strokes. The worst thing was he really did make it look so effortless when he did so. When he actually decided to crush the ball, it was truly heavier than my best at the time. While I was working my butt off, teaching pros would constantly say he was a natural. Unfortunately, he started running with the wrong crowd, but that's for another story.
n8dawg6
Legend
im just sayin aga can do whatever she wants cause shes hawt and good at tennis and if she ever needs anything at all i am here for her
Praetorian
Professional
Captain Ron
Professional
Let's all make a pledge right now:
If Aga ever needs advice on how to use a drop weight stringer, calculate MgIR, wonders how she would fair against a lefty male 3.0 with a kick serve or wants an NTRP rating from cell phone video, Talk Tennis will be here for her [emoji48]
Please reply, "I'm here for Aga" so Aga knows we are all here for her!
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prjacobs
Hall of Fame
prjacobs
Hall of Fame
Tommy Haas
Hall of Fame
No way in Hades is she 156 lbs. Maybe she once was when she first appeared on the tour. She must be close to 200 lbs. now.
Devil_dog
Hall of Fame
I've hit with some local female players who play D3 ball and I'm a 4.0/4.5-ish player and most our duels on court are mostly even - maybe 60-40 in their favor. But as you said, the girls are in great shape with stamina forever. I'm old enough to be their dad. Okay shape but I'm pushing really hard to stay on court with them. By the end of our matches or hitting sessions, I'm more wiped out than any match I play against my league guys.
I've also played against a former D1 player and she hit better balls, served harder, volleyed better than any of the guys on court that day.
People who watch these WTA players and think they have a chance to win... are delusional.
Power Player
Bionic Poster
I've been injured far more playing tennis (niggling joint stuff). Never been hurt doing crossfit. Been going 2 years.
Tennis Player
New User
Apparently there are not any women tennis players on Talk Tennis.
n8dawg6
Legend
thats great man, and to be fair i actually LIKE crossfit. i just hurt my back in a big hurry, and that was under the trainer's eye. then went to the PT and found out how many ppl she was treating for crossfit injuries. at the end of the day, she said lay off it for a minute
vancougar
New User
I'm a woman but I don't consider myself a tennis player. But I like to play at tennis and watch a little from time to time.
mad dog1
G.O.A.T.
Andy was helping Bethany get ready for her match. I saw Andy hitting with her at IW last year and he was hanging just fine. In that video, he wasn't going all out.
AMGF
Hall of Fame
The club pro here was the practice partner for a former Top 15 WTA player. She would fly him across the world. She never won a set against him and he was in the top 1000 ATP but didn't go very far. He said the only WTA he feel could beat him was Serena.
Now, the whole thread is based on the premise that WTA use lightweight frames. I don't know know where that comes from, any hard data that has the WTA frames weight listed?
My actual experience is that most of the good club players in my area play with lightweight frames. So for me the whole thread is backwards. Why are fit/strong male players use such lightweight frames when 120lbs women play with 12oz sticks?
Now, the whole thread is based on the premise that WTA use lightweight frames. I don't know know where that comes from, any hard data that has the WTA frames weight listed?
My actual experience is that most of the good club players in my area play with lightweight frames. So for me the whole thread is backwards. Why are fit/strong male players use such lightweight frames when 120lbs women play with 12oz sticks?
Sander001
Hall of Fame
The average WTA player uses an 11oz racquet?
markwillplay
Hall of Fame
If you think Serina Williams weighs 156 lbs well, credibility is simply lost...
Yep. On a bell curve of WTA racquet weights, I would guess the around 11.0 oz, maybe even high 10 oz.
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PMChambers
Hall of Fame
There's an assumption that WTA use 11 oz which may or may not be correct, it would surprise me that they use higher mass as there style of play with long strokes allows for heavier racquets, where as modern ATP style relies on smaller muscles (wrist) and fast acceleration (Note: <4.5 don't use modern ATP style so shouldn't matter).
Regardless, one important point to consider regarding mass is ease of hitting. Increasing mass at the head increases both Swing Weight and Twist Weight, these two are often referred to as plow is the ability of the racquet to hit through a ball. High TW & SW allow a player to hit off centre more without losing control and power. A low level player gets the benefit of a larger and more consistent drop off from sweet spot. Also it allows for a slower swing for similar potential energy, adding a bit more control. There two reasons are key to lower level players playing better, the racquet allows the a larger degree of error giving them a much larger sweet spot and a reduce racquet head speed requirement. Personally i think if the individual is strong enough to wield a 12.3 oz (350g) they would benefit is there timing is not as good.
Another point, though contentious, a heavier racquet is harder to swing as it has more inertia therefore the player needs to compensate with more fluid stroke which although not suited to the modern ATP style is very well suited to pre-2000 style. A heavy racquet will assist in developing a longer, slower, smoother swing. The weird multi hitched swings you see more off in 3.0-3.5 will be smoothed out. Then to develop power player should start bringing in bigger muscle groups, buttocks, torso and legs, to reduce the swing length and increase acceleration.
So in summary a heavier racquet in a lower skill level can assist in mitigating timing issues and help development of a consistent stroke. So those struggling with consistency, try some lead at 3 & 9 and start grinding like Djokovic.
Note: Nadal (low Wt, low SW, low TW) v Djokovic (high Wt, high SW, high TW) v Federer (high Wt, med SW, low TW) Nadal needs hit the ball closer to the sweet spot with high RHS to achieve this he stand further back into court and swing much faster and agressively (He's the physically strongest with the lightest racquet) v Djokovic can miss hit more can swing shorter his racquet allows him to player closer to the baseline, bunt, slap and flick balls back but lacks topspin due to high ineria reducing RHS and change in direction v Federer he has mass to stand close but must hit very centred, he needs good timing but doesn't need the power of Nadal. - The point of this is that a more stable racquet like Djokovic means you don't need the ability of Federer or the physical strength of Nadal. As a armature it should allow more room for error, help get more balls into play, play deeper shots. Federer has recently changed racquet to increase TW to assist stability on his backhand. Club players need more forgiveness than these three and therefore should consider a more forgiving setup relative to their strength.
