Article: Fed best of an era, but not better than Sampras

bruce38

Banned
The difference between Nadal and Federer:

When Federer is not 100% - he still plays FO 08 AND gets to the final! Only to be trounced by Nadal. Surprising but explainable.

When Nadal is not 100% - he withdraws. Had he played Federer in the final with those knees he would have lost 6-0 6-0 6-0 - and H2H would NOT be so skewed.

So once again, Federer gets penalized for being so great despite not being 100%.
 

Rippy

Hall of Fame
How on EARTH would Nadal winning a US Open make him better than Federer, as the OP says?

7 slams and career slam <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 15 slams and career slam
 

fed_is_GOD

Professional
lol..what a funny article... I Hate typing and posting a lot...but these things compel me... WHAT EVER...Now coming to this stupid article.. The way krajicek beat sampras is really not that big a deal..i mean sampras statistics are far moe to over take the loss..he had a BAD DAY and all players have it...lack of concentration, motivation etc etc...But FED even on a bad day was able to take his worst oppponent to a 5 setter( THink about it)...:shock:


Sampras has taken 12 years to reach 14..how many years has fed taken??? 6...Tennis is a growing sport..and mainly in this generation where there is competition to even line up in a super market.. it is so tough to snap a grand slam..and the amount of hard work people are ready to put in is just astonoshing...they would do ANY THING to get a slam..and Fed has kept ALL of them at bay...


And last of all..Sampras has himself told that FED is a special talent and GOAT...Does this author know more about sampras than sampras himself does???
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
How on EARTH would Nadal winning a US Open make him better than Federer, as the OP says?

7 slams and career slam <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 15 slams and career slam

Actually according to our brilliant author Nadal already has USO.He doesn't realize that Fed won it each year since 2004.

Roger Federer: The Best Of an Era, But Not Better Than Pete Sampras
by Amar Panchmatia (Scribe)


A befallen Andy Roddick gazed through teary eyes on Centre Court of Wimbledon on Sunday before looking up at the parade of past champions that had congregated on tennis' biggest stage. He looked at Pete Sampras, the last great American player, and pleaded, "Sorry Pete, I tried to hold him off."

No worries, Andy. You had actually done just fine. Because although numbers will say one thing, Roddick's epic 5-7, 7-6 (8-6), 7-6 (7-5), 3-6, 16-14 loss was the latest evidence to show the assembly of legends that Roger Federer may not be the best player of all time.

Sure, there is the argument that Federer has won 15 Grand Slams, more than any man to walk the planet. But before Sampras broke the old mark in 2000, it as held by one Roy Emerson. While casual fans know the names Bjorn Borg and Rod Laver—and even Jimmy Connors, John McEnroe, and Andre Agassi—Emerson never registered a blip on the radar of tennis greats. So until Sampras took the mark less than a decade ago, holding the Grand Slam record had never meant anything when it comes to deciding who is the best ever.

And while Laver, when asked that very question in the wake of Federer's record-setting victory, wanted to be reserved in his statements, even he suggested that you can only compare players to others in his era and not those before or after him.

But we can certainly compare eras. And when compared to Sampras, Federer's era is far weaker.

Some may attribute the fact that only one man: Rafael Nadal—has beaten Federer in a Grand Slam final as proof that Federer is the most dominating player in history. But over the course of six years, from 2003 to today, the fact that not one other player has been able to even sniff Federer on any surface is truly alarming and more of a testament to the state of men's tennis today.

While Nadal has been glorified as the "kryptonite" to tennis' Superman from Switzerland, the Spaniard is simply the Agassi of this generation. Just as Agassi dominated the slower hardcourts of the Australian Open, Nadal has been a monster on the clay courts of Roland Garros. Both men have career Grand Slams, both are known for being flamboyant and marketable off the court, and both proved to be the biggest rivals for the best players of their respective generations.

Except Sampras beat Agassi like a drum. Sampras burst on to the scene as a 19-year old in 1990 by picking Agassi apart, 6-4, 6-3, 6-2 at the U.S. Open final, his first Slam. The man known as "Pistol Pete" was 6-3 against Agassi in Grand Slams, including 4-1 in finals. Instead of being the one being demoralized, Sampras was doing the demoralizing, as his win over Agassi in the 1995 U.S. Open final sent the latter into a downward spiral that took him to 141st in the world and a free fall into temporary oblivion.

Federer, on the other hand, is 7-13 all-time against Nadal, including 2-6 in Grand Slams and 2-5 in Slam finals. That includes a 6-1, 6-3, 6-0 demolition in the finals of the 2008 French Open finals that was hardly befitting of a player being dubbed "The Best Ever."

How can Federer be the best player to ever pick up a tennis racquet when he is not even the best player of this current decade? How can he think of being the best when he knows that there is another man alive right now that he just cannot beat?

While Sampras had some cupcakes in his era, he had to get past some Grand Slam champions to accumulate his 14 Grand Slams. Other than Agassi, Sampras had to drop two-time U.S. Open champion Patrick Rafter to win his record-setting seventh Wimbledon in 2000. When he first broke through in 1990, Sampras also had to beat Ivan Lendl—who had made eight consecutive U.S. Open finals going into that tournament -- in the quarterfinals.

Two-time French Open champion Jim Courier also showed the strength of American tennis at the time, but Courier was a prop to Sampras whenever the two butted heads. Carlos Moya was a 1998 French Open champion, but he was assaulted by Sampras in the 1997 Australian Open finals. Even German legend Boris Becker—a six-time Grand Slam champion and three-time Wimbledon champion -- was mowed down in four sets at the lawn of the All England Club in 1995.

Federer, on the other hand, has had a blast beating the likes of Marcos Baghdatis, Fernando Gonzalez, Robin Soderling, and a washed-up Mark Philippoussis in Slam finals. The best American player of his generation—Andy Roddick—would be well behind Sampras, Agassi, Courier, and even Michael Chang in the American pecking order if he was born 10 years earlier.

Yet here was Roddick, giving Federer the match of his life, a struggle that Sampras never encountered as he rolled to seven All England Club titles. Outside of one hiccup at the quarterfinals of the 1996 Wimbledon against Dutchman Richard Krajicek, Sampras was 53-1 at Wimbledon over an eight-year span and never lost a final there, a distinction Federer failed to earn after losing to Nadal at the All England Club a year ago.

So celebrate Roger Federer if you must, especially in a sports world that has become so dominated by numbers. Fifteen may be larger than 14, but it's also easy to stockpile Grand Slams when only one man in the world has the tools to even compete with you.

The numbers may say that Roger Federer is the best of all time, but after looking at who he has had to beat, he is simply the best of a poor and washed-up generation.

And if Nadal has even one more say in the U.S. Open this September, Federer may not even be the best of this generation, either.
 

raiden031

Legend
This article is BS. As others have stated, you cannot say that Federer is a worse player than Nadal when Federer has accomplished more than Nadal against the same field of players. The only reason Fed has a losing H2H with Nadal is because of Nadal's clay court domination. So what if Nadal is a better claycourt player, that doesn't mean he's a better overall player. He is not as good as Federer on hard courts. How many consecutive slam SF appearances has Nadal had? Thats what I thought...

Oh and if Sampras was playing in this era, he would have just as bad a H2H against Nadal because Nadal would destroy Sampras on clay as well. Oh wait, I'm wrong, Sampras would not even play Nadal on clay because he would NEVER even make it to a clay court final.
 
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sh@de

Hall of Fame
I stopped reading immediately after I saw that the author wrote that Nadal had a career slam already. ROFLMFAO.
 

Klatu Verata Necktie

Hall of Fame
In general, the article is well thought out and presented. While he does make the mistake of attributing the career grand slam to Nadal, he makes his argument with conviction.

However, an article concerning the "GOAT" issue will always come down to opinion rather than fact, and therefore those who agree will find it fascinating whereas those who disagree will consider it to be rubbish.
 

cknobman

Legend
While Nadal has been glorified as the "kryptonite" to tennis' Superman from Switzerland, the Spaniard is simply the Agassi of this generation. Just as Agassi dominated the slower hardcourts of the Australian Open, Nadal has been a monster on the clay courts of Roland Garros. Both men have career Grand Slams, both are known for being flamboyant and marketable off the court, and both proved to be the biggest rivals for the best players of their respective generations.


This is all we need to read to know that the person who wrote this article is a complete moron. LOL career slam.
 
Ah, yeah here we go again. So Fed is not even player of the decade of of 1 H2H matchup? That's the biggest bullocks I've ever heard.
 

DoubleDeuce

Hall of Fame
No worries, Andy. You had actually done just fine. Because although numbers will say one thing, Roddick's epic 5-7, 7-6 (8-6), 7-6 (7-5), 3-6, 16-14 loss was the latest evidence to show the assembly of legends that Roger Federer may not be the best player of all time.

I stopped reading right there.

If anything it was a credit, to both players.
One keeping his consistency, in serve and rallies in his most important tennis stage in years, the other had to dig it deep, coming back yet again from another desparate situation. And yet, during the record time, none of them ever showed any signs of anger or disrespect.
Weak era argument is a fallacy. And it's like double edged razor. If you argue that winning 15 is because of weak era, how can you argue that winning 14 was not?
 

dh003i

Legend
Ah, yeah here we go again. So Fed is not even player of the decade of of 1 H2H matchup? That's the biggest bullocks I've ever heard.

Yea, it's ridiculous.

Most of Federer's losses to Nadal come on clay, where Nadal is arguably the greatest player ever as a clay-courter (along with Borg). If Sampras faced someone like Nadal on clay so-often, he'd have a poor losing record against them too, even poorer than Federer's record against Nadal.

If Federer wasn't good enough to get to all those clay-court finals against Nadal, then most of his losses against Nadal disappear. So it is pretty ridiculous to penalize him for being good enough to get that far in the tournament and play Nadal in the finals. Sampras wasn't good enough to consistently get far enough in clay-court events to face the best clay-court players of his generation.

Now, I'm not trying to discredit Sampras in any way. He was a great, tremendous player. But he wasn't as good as Federer is on clay, that ought to be pretty self-explanatory; Sampras himself has said so.

If you want to argue for Sampras being the greater player, then by all means go ahead. 6 straight years ending #1, most weeks #1, most Wimbledons aside from Renshaw in the late 1800s, etc. That is of course balanced against Federer's 5 straight Wimbledons (only matched by Borg), 7 straight Wimbledon finals (stands alone), 6 Wimbledon wins (second to Sampras in the post-1900s), 15 slams, and 4 straight years uninterrupted at #1 (week-in week-out).
 

JeMar

Legend
Roger Federer: The Best Of an Era, But Not Better Than Pete Sampras
by Amar Panchmatia (Scribe)


A befallen Andy Roddick gazed through teary eyes on Centre Court of Wimbledon on Sunday before looking up at the parade of past champions that had congregated on tennis' biggest stage. He looked at Pete Sampras, the last great American player, and pleaded, "Sorry Pete, I tried to hold him off."

No worries, Andy. You had actually done just fine. Because although numbers will say one thing, Roddick's epic 5-7, 7-6 (8-6), 7-6 (7-5), 3-6, 16-14 loss was the latest evidence to show the assembly of legends that Roger Federer may not be the best player of all time.

Sure, there is the argument that Federer has won 15 Grand Slams, more than any man to walk the planet. But before Sampras broke the old mark in 2000, it as held by one Roy Emerson. While casual fans know the names Bjorn Borg and Rod Laver—and even Jimmy Connors, John McEnroe, and Andre Agassi—Emerson never registered a blip on the radar of tennis greats. So until Sampras took the mark less than a decade ago, holding the Grand Slam record had never meant anything when it comes to deciding who is the best ever.

And while Laver, when asked that very question in the wake of Federer's record-setting victory, wanted to be reserved in his statements, even he suggested that you can only compare players to others in his era and not those before or after him.

But we can certainly compare eras. And when compared to Sampras, Federer's era is far weaker.

Some may attribute the fact that only one man: Rafael Nadal—has beaten Federer in a Grand Slam final as proof that Federer is the most dominating player in history. But over the course of six years, from 2003 to today, the fact that not one other player has been able to even sniff Federer on any surface is truly alarming and more of a testament to the state of men's tennis today.

While Nadal has been glorified as the "kryptonite" to tennis' Superman from Switzerland, the Spaniard is simply the Agassi of this generation. Just as Agassi dominated the slower hardcourts of the Australian Open, Nadal has been a monster on the clay courts of Roland Garros. Both men have career Grand Slams, both are known for being flamboyant and marketable off the court, and both proved to be the biggest rivals for the best players of their respective generations.

Except Sampras beat Agassi like a drum. Sampras burst on to the scene as a 19-year old in 1990 by picking Agassi apart, 6-4, 6-3, 6-2 at the U.S. Open final, his first Slam. The man known as "Pistol Pete" was 6-3 against Agassi in Grand Slams, including 4-1 in finals. Instead of being the one being demoralized, Sampras was doing the demoralizing, as his win over Agassi in the 1995 U.S. Open final sent the latter into a downward spiral that took him to 141st in the world and a free fall into temporary oblivion.

Federer, on the other hand, is 7-13 all-time against Nadal, including 2-6 in Grand Slams and 2-5 in Slam finals. That includes a 6-1, 6-3, 6-0 demolition in the finals of the 2008 French Open finals that was hardly befitting of a player being dubbed "The Best Ever."

How can Federer be the best player to ever pick up a tennis racquet when he is not even the best player of this current decade? How can he think of being the best when he knows that there is another man alive right now that he just cannot beat?

While Sampras had some cupcakes in his era, he had to get past some Grand Slam champions to accumulate his 14 Grand Slams. Other than Agassi, Sampras had to drop two-time U.S. Open champion Patrick Rafter to win his record-setting seventh Wimbledon in 2000. When he first broke through in 1990, Sampras also had to beat Ivan Lendl—who had made eight consecutive U.S. Open finals going into that tournament -- in the quarterfinals.

Two-time French Open champion Jim Courier also showed the strength of American tennis at the time, but Courier was a prop to Sampras whenever the two butted heads. Carlos Moya was a 1998 French Open champion, but he was assaulted by Sampras in the 1997 Australian Open finals. Even German legend Boris Becker—a six-time Grand Slam champion and three-time Wimbledon champion -- was mowed down in four sets at the lawn of the All England Club in 1995.

Federer, on the other hand, has had a blast beating the likes of Marcos Baghdatis, Fernando Gonzalez, Robin Soderling, and a washed-up Mark Philippoussis in Slam finals. The best American player of his generation—Andy Roddick—would be well behind Sampras, Agassi, Courier, and even Michael Chang in the American pecking order if he was born 10 years earlier.

Yet here was Roddick, giving Federer the match of his life, a struggle that Sampras never encountered as he rolled to seven All England Club titles. Outside of one hiccup at the quarterfinals of the 1996 Wimbledon against Dutchman Richard Krajicek, Sampras was 53-1 at Wimbledon over an eight-year span and never lost a final there, a distinction Federer failed to earn after losing to Nadal at the All England Club a year ago.

So celebrate Roger Federer if you must, especially in a sports world that has become so dominated by numbers. Fifteen may be larger than 14, but it's also easy to stockpile Grand Slams when only one man in the world has the tools to even compete with you.

The numbers may say that Roger Federer is the best of all time, but after looking at who he has had to beat, he is simply the best of a poor and washed-up generation.

And if Nadal has even one more say in the U.S. Open this September, Federer may not even be the best of this generation, either.

Sorry, but just about everything that comes out of the Bleacher Report is written by biased, amateur writers that have very little knowledge of tennis. It's just about the worst place in the internet in which to get your sports' fix.
 

380pistol

Banned
This was written by GameSampras, 380pistol, Cenc, Cesc Fabregas. Samp ****s are so stuck in the past that they don't want to recognize Fed will soon blow by their man's record and leave him as an afterthought in the GOAT discussion.

And the Federphile still can't keep my name out of their stinking mouth!!! Why don't you change your name to "Federphile #1"???

"Fed will blow by Sampras", love the insecurity, you really need him to do that don't you?? Whay are you upset about the article?? Is it cuz there's some actual truth to it??? Burns your soul like ether doesn't it???

Pete an afterthought in the GOAT discussion.... that's where you need him to be to give your boy Roger athe thrown!!!! Now what does that tell you???
 
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cork_screw

Hall of Fame
You can't really do a comparison for what federer can't control. Federer can't control who he plays, he only plays who he's bracketed to play in the next match. There's no time machine to play such players as borg, connors, etc... It's a little dumb to say that you need a dominate era in order to be considered the greatest ever. Lavar honestly did not have a dominant field and he's considered of the greatest. If there's no group of players like borg, sampras, agassi, lendl, etc.. in the future, then can any future player even be considered the greatest because he can't control what the situation is for other players, NO; the article is a bit dumb. You can make the same argument in sports that a Superbowl team can't really call themselves superbowl champs because they played and beat a team who's all star team captain was injured and therefore they don't deserve the title of being true "champs" because they didn't beat a champion caliber team. Or the chicago bulls didn't deserve to be called "champions" because they had an easy playoff field a certain year. You play and beat who is in your field and do what you can. Federer has dominated many former #1's and beat the greatest clay courter of all time on clay. The high quality players that fed beats; roddick, hewitt, djokovic, murray, get there for a reason, guys today are serving faster, and hitting with more spin than previous eras. He should consider that. The fact of the matter is, the writer is a general sports writer, he does not specialize in tennis and does not know the game even to the extent of many of the forum members here. From googling his name, he should stick to cleveland related sports news.
 
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zagor

Bionic Poster
You can't really do a comparison for what federer can't control. Federer can't control who he plays, he only plays who he's bracketed to play in the next match. There's no time machine to play such players as borg, connors, etc... You can make the same argument in sports that a Superbowl team can't really call themselves superbowl champs because they played and beat a team who's all star team captain was injured and therefore they don't deserve the title of being true "champs." Or the chicago bulls didn't deserve to be called "champions" because they had an easy field a certain year. You play and beat who is in your field and do what you can. Federer has dominated many former #1's. And they get there for a reason, guys today are serving faster, and hitting with more spin than previous eras. He should consider that. The fact of the matter is, the writer is a general sports writer, he does not specialize in tennis and does not know the game even to the extent of many of the forum members here.

I'd bet you anything 99% of posters here know that Nadal didn't win a career slam as Agassi.Even casual fans of the sport know Nadal didn't win USO yet.

Agree with the rest of your post.
 

380pistol

Banned
Federer is the luckiest ever in his draws. Nobody ever had easier draws at all 15 slams in history!!

Nah. But he's had some easy draws, and some of his contemporaries haven't benn the strongest. Not to put down Roger but it is what it is. Some take it to the extreme and act like everything was handed to him, and the other extreme, is that Fed would have beaten anyone from any era regardless.
 
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Bud

Bionic Poster
Bingo!

"Federer, on the other hand, is 7-13 all-time against Nadal, including 2-6 in Grand Slams and 2-5 in Slam finals. That includes a 6-1, 6-3, 6-0 demolition in the finals of the 2008 French Open finals that was hardly befitting of a player being dubbed "The Best Ever."

"How can Federer be the best player to ever pick up a tennis racquet when he is not even the best player of this current decade? How can he think of being the best when he knows that there is another man alive right now that he just cannot beat?"


Nail, meet hammer. He hit it squarely on the head.
 
The difference between Nadal and Federer:

When Federer is not 100% - he still plays FO 08 AND gets to the final! Only to be trounced by Nadal. Surprising but explainable.

When Nadal is not 100% - he withdraws. Had he played Federer in the final with those knees he would have lost 6-0 6-0 6-0 - and H2H would NOT be so skewed.

So once again, Federer gets penalized for being so great despite not being 100%.

Really good point. Really good!
 

cknobman

Legend
"Federer, on the other hand, is 7-13 all-time against Nadal, including 2-6 in Grand Slams and 2-5 in Slam finals. That includes a 6-1, 6-3, 6-0 demolition in the finals of the 2008 French Open finals that was hardly befitting of a player being dubbed "The Best Ever."

"How can Federer be the best player to ever pick up a tennis racquet when he is not even the best player of this current decade? How can he think of being the best when he knows that there is another man alive right now that he just cannot beat?"

Nail, meet hammer. He hit it squarely on the head.


Hmm 7-13 means that he can beat him just not the majority of the time. Nadal does have a decisive lead over him but its not utter and total domination espeicially considering that Nadal is arguably the greatest clay courter ever and the majority of his victories are on that surface.

Scew the numbers any way you want but your the one looking through rose colored glasses.

Any great can be beaten when they arent at their very best. Feds loss to Nadal(even if it was a beatdown) was far less shocking than Nadal's loss to Solderling (wasnt even a top 10 player) espeically considering that Nadal is the "king" of clay.
 

mtommer

Hall of Fame
There seems to be two different ways of defining G.O.A.T for most people.

1.) G.O.A.T is based on overall accomplishments over a player's career.

2.)G.O.A.T is based on a head to head player matchup ala boxing. Whoever wins is better than the other player and the winner has to keep winning against all other comers aka the top dog.

Who's right? There is no right. There is only what is important to each person doing the "figuring".

IMO, I don't think Federer is better than Sampras or vice versa. I think if the two played now there would be a heck of a lot of great tennis and you never know who would win. In their only matchup both players played their A level games. They showed both players games were fairly equal at that time.
 

Rippy

Hall of Fame
There seems to be two different ways of defining G.O.A.T for most people.

1.) G.O.A.T is based on overall accomplishments over a player's career.

2.)G.O.A.T is based on a head to head player matchup ala boxing. Whoever wins is better than the other player and the winner has to keep winning against all other comers aka the top dog.

Who's right? There is no right. There is only what is important to each person doing the "figuring".

IMO, I don't think Federer is better than Sampras or vice versa. I think if the two played now there would be a heck of a lot of great tennis and you never know who would win. In their only matchup both players played their A level games. They showed both players games were fairly equal at that time.

The H2H matchup thing is a REALLY bad way of judging GOAT though.

Safin better than Sampras?
Blake better than Nadal?
 

TonyB

Hall of Fame
Federer would be really afraid of Yzaga, Schaller, Delgado or Kucera. Guys Sampras actually lost to at the slams. :-?



Hahhaha. True! And don't forget that powerhouse George Bastl (Wimbledon 2002).


George Who??

Exactly.


There were many times in his career that Sampras lost to virtual NOBODYS, yet Federer has a 100% winning percentage against EVERYONE outside the top 5 in slams over the past 4+ years.

Federer is the best. Period. Get over it.
 
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shawn1122

Professional
This is the problem with being too good. Some idiots will not respect your competition and claim that they all suck and you win because they are pathetic. The easy solution is to just ignore such knuckleheads. And to the author, ever thought that Fed may just be more dominant over his generation than Sampras was???
 
I'm sick of all the people proclaiming that Federer is the undisputed GOAT, and I'm even more sick of the people that try to discredit Federer every step of the way (see ESPN, pretty much all day today).

Federer and Nadal's dominance has hurt the way this era is looked at from a historical standpoint. From Wimbledon 2004-Present, TWO PEOPLE not named Nadal and Federer have won Grand Slam titles. Safin won the 05 AO and Djokovic won the 08 AO. Every other title has been claimed by the #1 and #2 players in the world respectively.

It has taken Federer just 6 calendar years (July 03-July 09) to win 15 Majors. It took Sampras 11 years to win 14, leaving holes for other people to pick up Grand Slam titles. Andre Agassi was indeed a worthy rival and a great champion, but he took a ton of time off and his career was up and down, again leaving a lot of holes for people to pick up GS titles.

I think it's asinine to assume that players like Hewitt, Safin, Roddick, Djokovic, Murray and others would only have 1-2 slams if not for players like Federer and Nadal. Even if Federer was as up and down as Sampras was, or if Nadal's career fell into a few tailspins along the way, their contemporaries would have far more Slam titles, making it look like a much stronger era.

I guess I just don't consider Michael Chang an all time great. Courier was good, but injuries really shortened his stay at the top of tennis, and his best years were behind him once Sampras really came into his own...Rafter was good, but is he really that much better than guys in this generation? Maybe, but he definitely had more chances at slams than guys playing right now. If Lendl was a contemporary of Sampras then let's give credit to Federer for his domination of Andre Agassi. People can't have it both ways.

One thing that I will absolutely admit is the difference in styles of play in the 70s, 80s and 90s that simply isn't there today. In order to win tournaments back then, you had to be able to beat people that played baseline, all court and serve and volley tennis. This was heightened by the fact that certain surfaces rewarded certain playing styles, and you had a lot more specialists. But people who write articles like this don't focus on the style, they focus on the fact that "X player won 3 majors, which is more impressive than Safin's 2". Is that even true? Safin's 2 Slam titles came at the expense of Sampras and Federer...Surely that's worth something, right? Yet Safin is completely overlooked when it comes to the debate of tough competition.

Sampras was a great player, and in terms of Major titles, he did face stiffer competition. In terms of overall depth and talent of the field from 1-100...Who knows. What we do know is that Federer and Nadal haven't given anyone else the chance to win, which hurts the discussion in the end.

In terms of the rivalry, Sampras did indeed do very well against Agassi on fast surfaces, but didn't do as well on slower surfaces, with Agassi winning their only meeting at Roland Garros and both career meetings in Australia. If Sampras had faced Agassi more on clay and slow HCs, who knows what the h2h looks like. I feel the same way about Federer and Nadal's h2h, especially considering that it's 5-4 in favor of Federer and 2-2 in Slams when you take clay out of the equation. Nadal's absolute dominance on clay is evident, but unlike Federer, Nadal has not been the second best player at the US Open over the last 4-5 years, so Federer has never had a shot at Nadal on the surface that many feel favors his game the most. Still, let's keep bringing up the 08 French Open and forget about every other match they've played, which have almost all been close (minus the TMC drubbing in 2007 where Nadal only won 5 games).

Ugh...All that text. Sorry.
 
D

Deleted member 21996

Guest
^^^ this is a good point and i like the idea that Agassi only has a losing record against Sampras because he was better at fast surfaces than Sampras was at slow ones...:)
 
One thing that I will absolutely admit is the difference in styles of play in the 70s, 80s and 90s that simply isn't there today. In order to win tournaments back then, you had to be able to beat people that played baseline, all court and serve and volley tennis. This was heightened by the fact that certain surfaces rewarded certain playing styles, and you had a lot more specialists. But people who write articles like this don't focus on the style, they focus on the fact that "X player won 3 majors, which is more impressive than Safin's 2". Is that even true? Safin's 2 Slam titles came at the expense of Sampras and Federer...Surely that's worth something, right? Yet Safin is completely overlooked when it comes to the debate of tough competition.

I bolded the parts that mean we can't have a GOAT.

If your argument is numbers don't mean everything:

replace X with fed
3 with 15
2 with 14
safin as sampras
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
I'm sick of all the people proclaiming that Federer is the undisputed GOAT, and I'm even more sick of the people that try to discredit Federer every step of the way (see ESPN, pretty much all day today).

Federer and Nadal's dominance has hurt the way this era is looked at from a historical standpoint. From Wimbledon 2004-Present, TWO PEOPLE not named Nadal and Federer have won Grand Slam titles. Safin won the 05 AO and Djokovic won the 08 AO. Every other title has been claimed by the #1 and #2 players in the world respectively.

It has taken Federer just 6 calendar years (July 03-July 09) to win 15 Majors. It took Sampras 11 years to win 14, leaving holes for other people to pick up Grand Slam titles. Andre Agassi was indeed a worthy rival and a great champion, but he took a ton of time off and his career was up and down, again leaving a lot of holes for people to pick up GS titles.

I think it's asinine to assume that players like Hewitt, Safin, Roddick, Djokovic, Murray and others would only have 1-2 slams if not for players like Federer and Nadal. Even if Federer was as up and down as Sampras was, or if Nadal's career fell into a few tailspins along the way, their contemporaries would have far more Slam titles, making it look like a much stronger era.

I guess I just don't consider Michael Chang an all time great. Courier was good, but injuries really shortened his stay at the top of tennis, and his best years were behind him once Sampras really came into his own...Rafter was good, but is he really that much better than guys in this generation? Maybe, but he definitely had more chances at slams than guys playing right now. If Lendl was a contemporary of Sampras then let's give credit to Federer for his domination of Andre Agassi. People can't have it both ways.

One thing that I will absolutely admit is the difference in styles of play in the 70s, 80s and 90s that simply isn't there today. In order to win tournaments back then, you had to be able to beat people that played baseline, all court and serve and volley tennis. This was heightened by the fact that certain surfaces rewarded certain playing styles, and you had a lot more specialists. But people who write articles like this don't focus on the style, they focus on the fact that "X player won 3 majors, which is more impressive than Safin's 2". Is that even true? Safin's 2 Slam titles came at the expense of Sampras and Federer...Surely that's worth something, right? Yet Safin is completely overlooked when it comes to the debate of tough competition.

Sampras was a great player, and in terms of Major titles, he did face stiffer competition. In terms of overall depth and talent of the field from 1-100...Who knows. What we do know is that Federer and Nadal haven't given anyone else the chance to win, which hurts the discussion in the end.

In terms of the rivalry, Sampras did indeed do very well against Agassi on fast surfaces, but didn't do as well on slower surfaces, with Agassi winning their only meeting at Roland Garros and both career meetings in Australia. If Sampras had faced Agassi more on clay and slow HCs, who knows what the h2h looks like. I feel the same way about Federer and Nadal's h2h, especially considering that it's 5-4 in favor of Federer and 2-2 in Slams when you take clay out of the equation. Nadal's absolute dominance on clay is evident, but unlike Federer, Nadal has not been the second best player at the US Open over the last 4-5 years, so Federer has never had a shot at Nadal on the surface that many feel favors his game the most. Still, let's keep bringing up the 08 French Open and forget about every other match they've played, which have almost all been close (minus the TMC drubbing in 2007 where Nadal only won 5 games).

Ugh...All that text. Sorry.

Great post,was really a nice read.It's true that Agassi never lost to Sampras at FO and AO although their one meeting in their prime was under tough circumstances for Pete.

Some of the reason why Sampras was more prone to upsets at slams was that his game is higher risk than Fed's,he was more prone to injuries(you could say that about anyone compared to Fed,the guy's a Wolverine)and it was a different seeding system(32 seeds instead of 16) if I remember well(I think Wimbledon for example changed it's seeding system from 16 to 32 in 2000 or 2001)so all top guys were more prone to upsets in the old seeding system.
 

Speranza

Hall of Fame
I'm sick of all the people proclaiming that Federer is the undisputed GOAT, and I'm even more sick of the people that try to discredit Federer every step of the way (see ESPN, pretty much all day today).

Federer and Nadal's dominance has hurt the way this era is looked at from a historical standpoint. From Wimbledon 2004-Present, TWO PEOPLE not named Nadal and Federer have won Grand Slam titles. Safin won the 05 AO and Djokovic won the 08 AO. Every other title has been claimed by the #1 and #2 players in the world respectively.

It has taken Federer just 6 calendar years (July 03-July 09) to win 15 Majors. It took Sampras 11 years to win 14, leaving holes for other people to pick up Grand Slam titles. Andre Agassi was indeed a worthy rival and a great champion, but he took a ton of time off and his career was up and down, again leaving a lot of holes for people to pick up GS titles.

I think it's asinine to assume that players like Hewitt, Safin, Roddick, Djokovic, Murray and others would only have 1-2 slams if not for players like Federer and Nadal. Even if Federer was as up and down as Sampras was, or if Nadal's career fell into a few tailspins along the way, their contemporaries would have far more Slam titles, making it look like a much stronger era.

I guess I just don't consider Michael Chang an all time great. Courier was good, but injuries really shortened his stay at the top of tennis, and his best years were behind him once Sampras really came into his own...Rafter was good, but is he really that much better than guys in this generation? Maybe, but he definitely had more chances at slams than guys playing right now. If Lendl was a contemporary of Sampras then let's give credit to Federer for his domination of Andre Agassi. People can't have it both ways.

One thing that I will absolutely admit is the difference in styles of play in the 70s, 80s and 90s that simply isn't there today. In order to win tournaments back then, you had to be able to beat people that played baseline, all court and serve and volley tennis. This was heightened by the fact that certain surfaces rewarded certain playing styles, and you had a lot more specialists. But people who write articles like this don't focus on the style, they focus on the fact that "X player won 3 majors, which is more impressive than Safin's 2". Is that even true? Safin's 2 Slam titles came at the expense of Sampras and Federer...Surely that's worth something, right? Yet Safin is completely overlooked when it comes to the debate of tough competition.

Sampras was a great player, and in terms of Major titles, he did face stiffer competition. In terms of overall depth and talent of the field from 1-100...Who knows. What we do know is that Federer and Nadal haven't given anyone else the chance to win, which hurts the discussion in the end.

In terms of the rivalry, Sampras did indeed do very well against Agassi on fast surfaces, but didn't do as well on slower surfaces, with Agassi winning their only meeting at Roland Garros and both career meetings in Australia. If Sampras had faced Agassi more on clay and slow HCs, who knows what the h2h looks like. I feel the same way about Federer and Nadal's h2h, especially considering that it's 5-4 in favor of Federer and 2-2 in Slams when you take clay out of the equation. Nadal's absolute dominance on clay is evident, but unlike Federer, Nadal has not been the second best player at the US Open over the last 4-5 years, so Federer has never had a shot at Nadal on the surface that many feel favors his game the most.Still, let's keep bringing up the 08 French Open and forget about every other match they've played, which have almost all been close (minus the TMC drubbing in 2007 where Nadal only won 5 games).

Ugh...All that text. Sorry.

I wouldn't apologize, very well written.
 
^^^ this is a good point and i like the idea that Agassi only has a losing record against Sampras because he was better at fast surfaces than Sampras was at slow ones...:)

Well, I'm not even saying that it would have been all that different, but it was pretty obvious that Andre was the better clay and Rebound Ace player of the two.

I just feel like there is a back story to every h2h, and taking it as strict numbers (a la Blake > Nadal) isn't the best way to go about it.
 

380pistol

Banned
Well, I'm not even saying that it would have been all that different, but it was pretty obvious that Andre was the better clay and Rebound Ace player of the two.

I just feel like there is a back story to every h2h, and taking it as strict numbers (a la Blake > Nadal) isn't the best way to go about it.

Really?? Very obvious?? The 1995 final was played under trying circumstances for Pete and he still had a set point in the 3rd set, and it took Agassi to come up with an Agassi like return. When asked how he knew Pete was going wide to his forehand he said he didn't, he just gussed.

And are you aware in their 2000 Aus Open SF, Sampras played over 4 sets with a torn hip flexor with kept him out for over a month after the match?? And despit that Sampras may have very well won that match if not for a net cord in the 4th set tie break. Take a away that net cord at Pete would have threee match points at 6-3 in the 4th set tie breaker.

How this is "very obvious" I don't know.

As far as Nadal H2H, it's not good look for Federer that one man, your main rival has been so dominant over you. It's not the be all and end all, but certainly not a good look.

First...... it was Nadal just oens him on clay, but now Nadal has beaten him in 3 different surfaces in slam finals.
Then..... Nadal is boosted by clay regarding their H2H, who cares if H2H doesn't mean that much?? A contradition there. Also Nadal is 3-1 on outdoor hardcourts (his only loss he was 18 and was up 6-2,7-6,4-1), and 1-2 on grass. The 1st grass meeting was Nadal's 4th grass tournament of his life, while Federer was at his peak.

The question many were (and still are) asking, is how is Federer the greatest, when he has such problems with this guy?? I asked someone before what if Sampras accomplished damn near everything but was 1-4 vs Agassi in slam finals?? Wouldn't be a good look for Pete.
 

Rippy

Hall of Fame
Really?? Very obvious?? The 1995 final was played under trying circumstances for Pete and he still had a set point in the 3rd set, and it took Agassi to come up with an Agassi like return. When asked how he knew Pete was going wide to his forehand he said he didn't, he just gussed.

And are you aware in their 2000 Aus Open SF, Sampras played over 4 sets with a torn hip flexor with kept him out for over a month after the match?? And despit that Sampras may have very well won that match if not for a net cord in the 4th set tie break. Take a away that net cord at Pete would have threee match points at 6-3 in the 4th set tie breaker.

How this is "very obvious" I don't know.

As far as Nadal H2H, it's not good look for Federer that one man, your main rival has been so dominant over you. It's not the be all and end all, but certainly not a good look.

First...... it was Nadal just oens him on clay, but now Nadal has beaten him in 3 different surfaces in slam finals.
Then..... Nadal is boosted by clay regarding their H2H, who cares if H2H doesn't mean that much?? A contradition there. Also Nadal is 3-1 on outdoor hardcourts (his only loss he was 18 and was up 6-2,7-6,4-1), and 1-2 on grass. The 1st grass meeting was Nadal's 4th grass tournament of his life, while Federer was at his peak.

The question many were (and still are) asking, is how is Federer the greatest, when he has such problems with this guy?? I asked someone before what if Sampras accomplished damn near everything but was 1-4 vs Agassi in slam finals?? Wouldn't be a good look for Pete.

Yeah, it's a dent in Fed's resume, but a tiny tiny dent IMO. Tennis is largely about matchups, and Fed is just not that great against Nadal. However... he's obviously great against everyone else (15 slams). I doubt Sampras had a winning record over ALL his fellow players.
 
Really?? Very obvious?? The 1995 final was played under trying circumstances for Pete and he still had a set point in the 3rd set, and it took Agassi to come up with an Agassi like return. When asked how he knew Pete was going wide to his forehand he said he didn't, he just gussed.

And are you aware in their 2000 Aus Open SF, Sampras played over 4 sets with a torn hip flexor with kept him out for over a month after the match?? And despit that Sampras may have very well won that match if not for a net cord in the 4th set tie break. Take a away that net cord at Pete would have threee match points at 6-3 in the 4th set tie breaker.

How this is "very obvious" I don't know.

As far as Nadal H2H, it's not good look for Federer that one man, your main rival has been so dominant over you. It's not the be all and end all, but certainly not a good look.

First...... it was Nadal just oens him on clay, but now Nadal has beaten him in 3 different surfaces in slam finals.
Then..... Nadal is boosted by clay regarding their H2H, who cares if H2H doesn't mean that much?? A contradition there. Also Nadal is 3-1 on outdoor hardcourts (his only loss he was 18 and was up 6-2,7-6,4-1), and 1-2 on grass. The 1st grass meeting was Nadal's 4th grass tournament of his life, while Federer was at his peak.

The question many were (and still are) asking, is how is Federer the greatest, when he has such problems with this guy?? I asked someone before what if Sampras accomplished damn near everything but was 1-4 vs Agassi in slam finals?? Wouldn't be a good look for Pete.

These are all fair points. I would say that Sampras was definitely inferior to Agassi on clay (that's hard to argue against), but at the AO, it's a different story, I'll give you that.

My only argument with the Federer/Nadal h2h is that 55% of their matches have been played on one surface. If 11 of their 20 matches had been played at Wimby or the US Open, I think that Federer would probably have an edge. Unfortunately we'll never know.

I agree that it's a knock on Federer to have this record against Nadal, and I think it will do him well to beat Nadal at another couple slams and to improve the h2h against him. IF (big if) Nadal makes the US Open final and they play at Cincy or during the indoor season, those matchups favor Federer, and he's got a shot at getting some wins back. If Nadal has another disappointing HC season and Federer is there in the finals of clay events again, it will be more of the same...
 

Mick

Legend
the reason federer had problem with nadal is he's not used to seeing his winning shots coming back.

with roddick, federer's first winners often were winners.

With nadal, federer's first winners often would come back. He sometimes would have to hit 3 or 4 winners just to win a point and sometimes, some of those winners would come back as a nadal's winner from a crazy defensive position :shock:
 

Rippy

Hall of Fame
These are all fair points. I would say that Sampras was definitely inferior to Agassi on clay (that's hard to argue against), but at the AO, it's a different story, I'll give you that.

My only argument with the Federer/Nadal h2h is that 55% of their matches have been played on one surface. If 11 of their 20 matches had been played at Wimby or the US Open, I think that Federer would probably have an edge. Unfortunately we'll never know.

I agree that it's a knock on Federer to have this record against Nadal, and I think it will do him well to beat Nadal at another couple slams and to improve the h2h against him. IF (big if) Nadal makes the US Open final and they play at Cincy or during the indoor season, those matchups favor Federer, and he's got a shot at getting some wins back. If Nadal has another disappointing HC season and Federer is there in the finals of clay events again, it will be more of the same...

That's why the H2H argument is so crap. It penalises Fed for doing well on clay, and rewards Rafa for not doing well on hardcourts.
 

35ft6

Legend
This guy is terrible. Looks like he went through this message board, took notes on the most common anti-Fed arguments, and wrote an article about it presenting the thoughts as his.
While Nadal has been glorified as the "kryptonite" to tennis' Superman from Switzerland, the Spaniard is simply the Agassi of this generation. Just as Agassi dominated the slower hardcourts of the Australian Open, Nadal has been a monster on the clay courts of Roland Garros. Both men have career Grand Slams, both are known for being flamboyant and marketable off the court...
He can't even get the basics right. Fed is GOAT. He is winning in the most competitive era ever.
 

coloskier

Legend
For federer to be the best of his generation he would have had to beat NAdal at the french. No dice.

For Nadal to be the best of his gen he would had to beat fed at wimbledon. He did.. Case closed.

For Nadal to be the best of his generation at least half of his GS titles would have to be on something other than clay.
 

380pistol

Banned
These are all fair points. I would say that Sampras was definitely inferior to Agassi on clay (that's hard to argue against), but at the AO, it's a different story, I'll give you that.

I tend to agree here. I mean Sampras has played some great matches on clay, but over the long haul, it could get to him. I have no doubt Pete can beat Andre on clay on any given day, but if they were to play a series of matches, I would go with Agassi to come out ahead.


My only argument with the Federer/Nadal h2h is that 55% of their matches have been played on one surface. If 11 of their 20 matches had been played at Wimby or the US Open, I think that Federer would probably have an edge. Unfortunately we'll never know.

I used to bellieve this as well. But some would say Fed's best surface is hard, and if it it isn't he's still put up some outstanding #'s on that surface, yet he is 1-3 vs Nadal on outdoor hard. On grass it's 1-2, with a close 5 setter. The one surface where Fed has been definitively better is indoors. It's said to be carpet in Shaghai (Indoor Taraflex), but those close say it plays and feels more like a hardcourt.

Now one can say if they had played an equal amount of matches on each surface Fed would be ahead. Someone else could say if Nadal played Fed this well as a youngster, if these matches took place when both were in their primes Nadal would come out ahead. But who knows.

I feel ragardless of the circumstance nadal wouls almost always lead Federer H2H, because of the match up issue. Tennis is like boxing where styles make fights. Certain players do well vs others, certain teans do well vs others. It's not a slight vs Federer but Nadal is not a good matchup for him.

I let Fed fans and Nadal fans go at it though. I mean their respective forehands were being discussed. And I said if it were a video game and I had to take one of their forehands for my created player to go through a career, then I'd take Roger's forehand. But if it were a Roger/Rafa H2H match up anywherer I'd take Nadal's. Due match ups and how they play Nadal's forehand effects Fed, more than Fed's effects Nadal, but some will take that to mean Nadal's forehand is better overall which isn;t the case.

Stylistically Nadal is just not a good match up for Roger, but that doesn't mean Nadal is the better player. maybe one day, we'll have to see but not now.

I agree that it's a knock on Federer to have this record against Nadal, and I think it will do him well to beat Nadal at another couple slams and to improve the h2h against him. IF (big if) Nadal makes the US Open final and they play at Cincy or during the indoor season, those matchups favor Federer, and he's got a shot at getting some wins back. If Nadal has another disappointing HC season and Federer is there in the finals of clay events again, it will be more of the same...

Yeah it's not a good look. But like I said it's not the be all and end all. Those who like Roger try to dismiss it as nothing, and those who dislike him try to make seem like everything.

Fed does need to get some of those wins back, and preferrably doing it in slams will help. But then again with Nadal's knees, I don't know how he'll fair this HC summer.
 

Mick

Legend
This guy is terrible. Looks like he went through this message board, took notes on the most common anti-Fed arguments, and wrote an article about it presenting the thoughts as his.He can't even get the basics right. Fed is GOAT. He is winning in the most competitive era ever.

Yep Nadal does not have a career grand slam. not yet anyway.
that's a big error.
 
I tend to agree here. I mean Sampras has played some great matches on clay, but over the long haul, it could get to him. I have no doubt Pete can beat Andre on clay on any given day, but if they were to play a series of matches, I would go with Agassi to come out ahead.


I used to bellieve this as well. But some would say Fed's best surface is hard, and if it it isn't he's still put up some outstanding #'s on that surface, yet he is 1-3 vs Nadal on outdoor hard. On grass it's 1-2, with a close 5 setter. The one surface where Fed has been definitively better is indoors. It's said to be carpet in Shaghai (Indoor Taraflex), but those close say it plays and feels more like a hardcourt.

Now one can say if they had played an equal amount of matches on each surface Fed would be ahead. Someone else could say if Nadal played Fed this well as a youngster, if these matches took place when both were in their primes Nadal would come out ahead. But who knows.

I feel ragardless of the circumstance nadal wouls almost always lead Federer H2H, because of the match up issue. Tennis is like boxing where styles make fights. Certain players do well vs others, certain teans do well vs others. It's not a slight vs Federer but Nadal is not a good matchup for him.

I let Fed fans and Nadal fans go at it though. I mean their respective forehands were being discussed. And I said if it were a video game and I had to take one of their forehands for my created player to go through a career, then I'd take Roger's forehand. But if it were a Roger/Rafa H2H match up anywherer I'd take Nadal's. Due match ups and how they play Nadal's forehand effects Fed, more than Fed's effects Nadal, but some will take that to mean Nadal's forehand is better overall which isn;t the case.

Stylistically Nadal is just not a good match up for Roger, but that doesn't mean Nadal is the better player. maybe one day, we'll have to see but not now.



Yeah it's not a good look. But like I said it's not the be all and end all. Those who like Roger try to dismiss it as nothing, and those who dislike him try to make seem like everything.

Fed does need to get some of those wins back, and preferrably doing it in slams will help. But then again with Nadal's knees, I don't know how he'll fair this HC summer.

Great points...I agree with everything that you're saying. I'm a big Fed fan, but I realize the fact that Federer needs to pick up some wins against Nadal, and especially to do it later in his career (and during what should be Nadal's prime) would make it more impressive. I'll be happy honestly if Federer can beat Nadal in 1-2 more slams, and if he gets to double digit wins against Nadal.

I guess we'll see how it goes, but I'm definitely a lot happier to have these kinds of conversations than a lot of the others that are going on around here.
 

pame

Hall of Fame
"Yet here was Roddick, giving Federer the match of his life, a struggle that Sampras never encountered as he rolled to seven All England Club titles."

Whoa! what happened to 2001 - and a certain 5-setter that Pete Sampras lost to -- umm.. somebody called Roger Federer?
 
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