As I advance, should my 1st and 2nd serve blend together?

[HunterST]

Recently I've been using a slice/topspin serve for my first serve. It has pretty darn good consistency, and it got me thinking about how much of a weapon it would be if that was my SECOND serve.

My flat first serve has also gotten more reliable as of late. I feel like it would put a ton of pressure on my opponents if my first serve was my big, flatter serve and my second serve was my current first.

Also, the topspin slice 1st serve feels WAY more natural than a traditional topspin serve to me. I guess I want to know if it's advisable to switch to this untraditional second serve.

Do 4.5+ players stick to the strict tospin/kick serve for their second serves, or do they begin to blend together?

 

[Dreamer]

Slice serve is actually a common 2nd serve. Being able to mix up both kicks and slice would be great for variation.

 

[Falloutjr]

Recently I've been using a slice/topspin serve for my first serve. It has pretty darn good consistency, and it got me thinking about how much of a weapon it would be if that was my SECOND serve.

My flat first serve has also gotten more reliable as of late. I feel like it would put a ton of pressure on my opponents if my first serve was my big, flatter serve and my second serve was my current first.

Also, the topspin slice 1st serve feels WAY more natural than a traditional topspin serve to me. I guess I want to know if it's advisable to switch to this untraditional second serve.

Do 4.5+ players stick to the strict tospin/kick serve for their second serves, or do they begin to blend together?

At 4.5+ you can't hit all kick serves as second serves. Players will run around the kicking ball and hammer your shot. The most important thing when serving is to 1. Have a big first serve, and 2. Have variety.

You can essentially hit 6 different serves on the second serve. Kicker to the forehand, kicker to the backhand, kicker to the body, slice to the backhand, slice to the body, slice to the forehand. Of all these serves, if your goal is to play 4.5+, I'd recommend you work on the kicker to the backhand and slice to the forehand. The slice serve is effective because it bounces low and pulls your opponent off the court, giving you open court to your right. The kicker to the backhand is useful because this is usually the weaker wing. If your opponent uses a 2HBH, I recommend slicing serves to their backhand as well, and testing the development of their backhand slice. If it's not on par with their other strokes, keep going to the well and see how it works. Also watch them as they stand, look to see if they're loading up on one side. If they're using a forehand grip, serve to the backhand. If they're using a backhand grip, serve to the forehand. You don't want a slice/kick as a first serve past 3.5, honestly. 4.0+ can usually handle a kick serve, and 4.5+ can crank it if it is lands in the right spot.

Good luck in all your ventures

 

[Dreamer]

^ Quality kick serves can be quite fast and the spin can be difficult to work with. As long as you have placement on a kick serve 4.5+ can hit all kick second serves

 

[HunterST]

So what I'm getting is that advanced players don't just have one type of second serve. That is, not every second serve is a topspin, some are slice some are kick etc. I guess that's because they have no trouble getting the serve in the box.

 

[Falloutjr]

So what I'm getting is that advanced players don't just have one type of second serve. That is, not every second serve is a topspin, some are slice some are kick etc. I guess that's because they have no trouble getting the serve in the box.

Yeah, at 4.5, your second serve needs to be a minimum 90% shot.

 

[fuzz nation]

As far as "blending them together" goes, I think it's smart to have about the same service motion for any ball you hit, since a second serve also demands a good deliberate move on the ball. Swing with a full motion so that you can make enough pace, spin, or a combo of the two for every serve you hit.

 

[J011yroger]

It is all the same swing, you just attack the ball at a different angle. You can hit topspin/slice for first and 2nd serves, you just square the first one a little more, and hit it about an even combo of topspin/slice, and the 2nd one you cut a little more and hit a little more topspin than slice.

There are a million ways to do it, just pick one you like.

J

 

[HunterST]

It is all the same swing, you just attack the ball at a different angle. You can hit topspin/slice for first and 2nd serves, you just square the first one a little more, and hit it about an even combo of topspin/slice, and the 2nd one you cut a little more and hit a little more topspin than slice.

There are a million ways to do it, just pick one you like.

J

This concept of the same swing is what kind of confuses me. Every video and instructor says the topspin serve is all about brushing up on the ball and tossing over your head. When I do this, it feels really unnatural.

Is the arm actually traveling vertically on the topspin serve or would tossing the ball over head and swinging at it with a more normal swing create the topspin?

 

[J011yroger]

This concept of the same swing is what kind of confuses me. Every video and instructor says the topspin serve is all about brushing up on the ball and tossing over your head. When I do this, it feels really unnatural.

Is the arm actually traveling vertically on the topspin serve or would tossing the ball over head and swinging at it with a more normal swing create the topspin?

Let me take a shower, finish my beer, and figure out how to put this into words.

J

 

[supineAnimation]

For me, only two things really change between first and second serves:

1. the toss is very close to directly over my head. In regards to the two axes for plotting the location of the toss in relation to the angle of your shoulders - from the center out to the right sideline, for righties (call that sideways), and from the center forward to the net (call that forward) - I focus on getting the toss pretty much right over my head in relation to the sideways direction, and in relation to the forward direction, that varies on how aggressive I want the second serve to be.

2. I use my tossing arm and my stomach muscles to keep my upper body and shoulders closed so my arm and racquet travel upward and out to the right. On my first serve, I keep my upper body relatively closed as well (there are a couple where I allow my upper body to get more square to the net), but not as much as on my second serve and so my arm and racquet swing up and more towards the net in the forward direction.

 

[WildVolley]

This concept of the same swing is what kind of confuses me. Every video and instructor says the topspin serve is all about brushing up on the ball and tossing over your head. When I do this, it feels really unnatural.

Is the arm actually traveling vertically on the topspin serve or would tossing the ball over head and swinging at it with a more normal swing create the topspin?

The analysis I've seen, mostly from John Yandell, shows that there's usually a lot of sidespin on the topspin serves from people like Sampras.

It seems the racket approach angle is usually different on a topspin serve. The server is swinging more across the back of the ball and less forward into it. You could just do this by turning further away from the net. That would mostly seem to just generate slice, but also, the servers get more of a topspin component by taking the ball at a slightly lower height while the racket is still rising and more over the head.

As the arm straightening and pronates up, the ball will be given some topspin. The racket has to have freedom to still be going up quickly at contact, so if you take it at the top of the racket path, you won't get much spin. I still struggle with this. The few times I've done it correctly, I get pro like topspin, but it's still more miss than hit for me.

 

[J011yroger]

Ok, I am back.

This is so tough to put into words, but let me see how I do.

If you are sitting in your office, and you rumple up a paper into a ball and go to throw it into the garbage can, it doesn't matter if the can is to your left, your right, or straight ahead. The throwing motion you use is the same, you just aim in a different direction.

Now, in this office, imagine you have one of those fancy decorative globes that you can spin on either axis.

Now you move your hand in the same forward and out brushing motion but you brush on different parts of the globe to make it rotate in different directions. The motion of your hand is the same, but it is just hitting the globe in different spots, and brushing it in a different direction due to how you line up to it.

Now as you are brushing the globe, you keep moving your hand the same speed. But at first you ever so slightly just barely graze the globe with the tip of your finger. It won't spin much no matter how fast your hand is moving because you are not hitting it solidly enough, so you, keeping your hand moving the same speed, just brush it a little more solidly, and now it starts spinning better, and you brush it a little more solidly and it spins a little better. Sooner or later you will get to the point where the globe spins as fast as it can with that given hand speed.

Now once you find the right amount of brush which translates to the maximum rotational speed, if you continue to hit it more and more solidly, the spin will be slower, but you will actually be hitting the globe so solidly that it will not only want to rotate about its axis, but move entirely in the direction that you are hitting it across the office floor. That is adding pace to the serve.

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Ok, so now, you know where you need to hit the ball to make it go where. You hit the left side of the ball, it goes right. Hit the right side, it goes left. Hit the top, it goes down. Hit the bottom, it goes up.

So before every serve you hit, you decide, first on location, then on spin. Location, how much topspin, how much sidespin.

Now you know where to hit the ball, and which direction your swing should be going as it attacks that location on the ball.

All that is left then is to go out and practice it, and screw up a billion times until you get the hang of it.

As far as where to toss the ball, while you are learning to vary spins and speeds, just toss the thing straight in front of you every time.

Once you get the hang of putting different spins on the ball then you may find that moving the toss gives you a better angle on a certain attack route, and you may decide to change, but personally, I would just keep the same toss for everything.

In addition to not being readable, keeping your toss the same is one variable that you can eliminate. Translation: One less thing that can go wrong.

J

 

[ProgressoR]

from the above, many posters seem to differentiate only topspin serve (I include kicker here) and slice. Dont forget there is a whole range in between ie top/slice.

Top/slice can be an effective first serve as well as second. And a slight change in stroke can add more top or more slice as you prefer. Some of my top/slice serves are almost as fast as my flat serves, and some are as slow as my spinny slice serve, so there is a whole spectrum of serves, not just top or slice....

 

[prattle128]

During doubles, I would just hit the same serve twice. Topspin/slice serve. Maybe a bit more pace on the first, but usually just about the same thing.

 

[J011yroger]

from the above, many posters seem to differentiate only topspin serve (I include kicker here) and slice. Dont forget there is a whole range in between ie top/slice.

Top/slice can be an effective first serve as well as second. And a slight change in stroke can add more top or more slice as you prefer. Some of my top/slice serves are almost as fast as my flat serves, and some are as slow as my spinny slice serve, so there is a whole spectrum of serves, not just top or slice....

Exactly, you can hit basically the same serve for an entire match and just hit one a little faster, little slower, little more spin, little less spin, more top, more slice.

And the thing looks exactly the same every time you swing at it, and it is just changing every time so the other guy can't put a good swing on it.

Awesome for S&V players who just need a sub optimal return. So the returner is always just a little off, and can't quite put a good swing on the ball, and then the server is there to handle the volley.

Or great in dubs too.

J

 

[ProgressoR]

yes I hope to use that in my S and V game.

All i need is to work on the serve.

And then, umm, work on the volley.

 

[J011yroger]

yes I hope to use that in my S and V game.

All i need is to work on the serve.

And then, umm, work on the volley.

Right there with ya!

Serve and volley?

I can't serve or volley...

J

 

[Limpinhitter]

Recently I've been using a slice/topspin serve for my first serve. It has pretty darn good consistency, and it got me thinking about how much of a weapon it would be if that was my SECOND serve.

My flat first serve has also gotten more reliable as of late. I feel like it would put a ton of pressure on my opponents if my first serve was my big, flatter serve and my second serve was my current first.

Also, the topspin slice 1st serve feels WAY more natural than a traditional topspin serve to me. I guess I want to know if it's advisable to switch to this untraditional second serve.

Do 4.5+ players stick to the strict tospin/kick serve for their second serves, or do they begin to blend together?

For the most part, you should use a lot of topspin, and arch, on your first serve, clearing the net by at least 2 feet. You should use even more topspin and arch on your second serve, clearing the net by at least 3 feet. Flat and slice serves are lower pecentage shots which should be used only a few times per set as change-ups, to keep your opponent guessing. Further, even a flat serve shouldn't be completely flat. It should have at least a rolling spin on it to help bring it into the box.