Carnivore Diet?

[WildVolley]

The Carnivore Diet is really hot right now. I've followed a few physicians online who promote a full carnivore diet (mostly beef) or a partial carnivore diet (mostly meat but also with fruit). They both agree that vegetables and nuts can create issues for some people, due to the anti-vitamins in most plants.

It's a fairly extreme elimination diet (probably more so than going vegan), but the advocates of it tend to be pretty ripped guys who obviously lift weights. It seems very effective for dropping weight. I'd guess it is difficult to eat thousands of calories of beef every day. Strangely enough, despite a lack of fiber, a lot of people claim that eating only meat greatly helped with their digestion problems.

Has anyone here tried it? For tennis players, I think there'd be endurance problems until the body adapts to efficiently convert fat for energy.

 

[tennis3]

I stopped eating vegetables years ago. Best thing I ever did.

 

[LOBALOT]

The only vegetables I eat are fermented and distilled at 80 proof minimum.

 

[Rosstour]

I'm not on any diet, but I eat what I like and that happens to be a ton of very fatty muscle and organ meats, and seafood. I could probably eat more fruits than I do. And I can't do without onions, mushrooms and garlic. Or red sauces (great for your prostate).

I stay around 12% BF at 135-140lb. Never counted a calorie or weighed a portion in my life.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Skeptical of the Carnivore Diet

The carnivore diet is the latest fad diet that is particularly pseudoscientific.

sciencebasedmedicine.org

The Carnivore Diet: Can You Have Too Much Meat?

Can you eat too much meat? There are many diets out there to help you lose weight, but is the carnivore diet too good to be true? A Cleveland Clinic dietitian weighs in.

health.clevelandclinic.org

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

For anyone who's been on a Carnivore (Zero Carb) Diet or the beef-only version of this, the Lion Diet, for an extended period of time, what are your BUN/ Creatinine Ratio and LDL cholesterol levels?

A high B/C Ratio (> 20:1) can be a strong indicator that you are not getting sufficient blood flow to your kidneys. This can lead to acute renal failure, congestive heart failure, dehydration or gastro-intestinal bleeding.

Note that cats will nearly always develop kidney issues as they get older. For humans on a Lion/ Carnivore Diet, this can happen a lot sooner.

These diets sound like very extreme fad diets that can result in a myriad of health issues if continued for an extended period of time -- months or years. In addition to CVD, kidney failure and the other issues mentioned, there's a strong risk of liver disease, colon cancer, gout and constipation (from the lack of fiber). With a lack of fruits & veggies, the body will likely receive inadequate vitamins and micronutrients.

In addition to the personal health risks mentioned, a widespread adoption of these diets will undoubtedly lead to an increase in greenhouse gases / climate change.

 

[sherpa]

If we were designed to eat heaps of meat, surely we would have decent K9 teeth like a dog?

 

[WildVolley]

If we were designed to eat heaps of meat, surely we would have decent K9 teeth like a dog?

Designed or not, it appears that hunter-gatherer societies did prefer to eat heaps of meat or fish when they could. Saladino, who is a doctor pushing carnivore + fruit/honey lived with the Hadza (a hunter-gatherer tribe) in Tanzania for a short time. Their preferred foods were meat, honey, and fruit. They'd also dig up tubers when hungry, but these were not a preferred source of calories (apparently these tubers have more fiber and are less palatable than potatoes and yams). He describes them cooking the tuber and then chewing them and teaching him to spit out the fiber.

The Hadza reputedly have very good health, but it is hard to tell how accurate this data is and whether genetics/constant exercise in hunting plays a role.

 

[WildVolley]

For anyone who's been on a Carnivore (Zero Carb) Diet or the beef-only version of this, the Lion Diet, for an extended period of time, what are your BUN/ Creatinine Ratio and LDL cholesterol levels?

A high B/C Ratio (> 20:1) can be a strong indicator that you are not getting sufficient blood flow to your kidneys. This can lead to acute renal failure, congestive heart failure, dehydration or gastro-intestinal bleeding.

Note that cats will nearly always develop kidney issues as they get older. For humans on a Lion/ Carnivore Diet, this can happen a lot sooner.

These diets sound like very extreme fad diets that can result in a myriad of health issues if continued for an extended period of time -- months or years. In addition to CVD, kidney failure and the other issues mentioned, there's a strong risk of liver disease, colon cancer, gout and constipation (from the lack of fiber). With a lack of fruits & veggies, the body will likely receive inadequate vitamins and micronutrients.

In addition to the personal health risks mentioned, a widespread adoption of these diets will undoubtedly lead to an increase in greenhouse gases / climate change.

A pure meat diet seems extreme, but it also hasn't been studied to any great extent. There are enough people going carnivore now that it should be possible to start some preliminary studies. At the moment, it would appear that people eating carnivore would have an "unhealthy user" bias, since most of them adopt the diet due to digestive, auto-immune, or metabolic problems (I wonder how true this is also with diets like vegan). Dr. Shawn Baker is a jacked guy in his mid-50s who advocates for studies on carnivore. In one of his presentations, he jokes that the only thing the carnivore diet cures with certainty is veganism, everything else needs well-designed studies, but the anecdotal evidence is intriguing.

I don't know about the B/C ratio, but I'd guess that the physicians who are eating this way are checking this on their panels. I do know that many have high cholesterol levels. However, most seem to be quite metabolically healthy and have very good blood sugar levels. I assume the operating theory that most believe is high cholesterol isn't an issue in people who do not have issues with blood sugar.

Some of the carnivore eaters do start experiencing issues with electrolytes over time. Baker seems to being doing fine after primarily eating beef for years, but Saladino had issues until he started adding carbs and sugars with fruit and honey, so he's definitely not eating a carnivore only diet, more of his version of a hunter-gatherer diet.

From what I've seen, the physicians eating this way do not seem to have an issue with vitamins or micronutrients, but that may depend on the quality of the meat they're getting or willingness to eat organ meat. It appears that it is easier to get essential nutrients on a carnivore diet than a vegan diet.

I'm not buying the concern over global warming/climate change due to eating more meat. For example, raising beef properly enriches the soil, as in the American west/mid-west where buffalo herds and flood plains created great crop farmlands. On a large scale, raising cattle is probably more expensive, but I don't think that most people would adopt a carnivore diet any more than most people would choose to go vegan.

 

[Crocodile]

I think the problem with any of these diets is the ability to be on them long term. I don’t think you could remain healthy say consuming just meat for 20 years.
I’m pretty sure if you went on the diet for 2 months you would lose weight. Some people have reported that their inflammatory conditions subsided on these diets however I think the bigger problem you face after 2 months is a metabolic one. For example I have seen a lot of people who have reduced their calorie intake significantly by reducing carbohydrates only finding that the body’s metabolism changes, so much that when they re introduce some carbohydrates the body regains all the weight loss and then some more so you end up being heavier.

 

[Crocodile]

My view is that the best diet is one where you have a reasonable balance between the food groups which work for you.
I also think that the best foods are the ones that have the least human interference and chemicals. So if the food you are eating has a list of ingredients and additives ( that you have never heard of ) then there are probably better options.
The exceptions are home made bread but at least then you know what’s in it.

 

[WildVolley]

I think the problem with any of these diets is the ability to be on them long term. I don’t think you could remain healthy say consuming just meat for 20 years.
I’m pretty sure if you went on the diet for 2 months you would lose weight. Some people have reported that their inflammatory conditions subsided on these diets however I think the bigger problem you face after 2 months is a metabolic one. For example I have seen a lot of people who have reduced their calorie intake significantly by reducing carbohydrates only finding that the body’s metabolism changes, so much that when they re introduce some carbohydrates the body regains all the weight loss and then some more so you end up being heavier.

Paul Saladino is one of the "carnivore" type doctors who has reintroduced fruit and honey into his diet which is primarily meat and dairy based. He's very low bodyfat, but he's also extremely active, so hard to say what experiences other people would have.

Shawn Baker is the other doctor who mostly eats steak and seems to be doing well on that diet. Again, he's extremely active and I'm not sure other people could do so well on such a limited diet.

 

[Crocodile]

Paul Saladino is one of the "carnivore" type doctors who has reintroduced fruit and honey into his diet which is primarily meat and dairy based. He's very low bodyfat, but he's also extremely active, so hard to say what experiences other people would have.

Shawn Baker is the other doctor who mostly eats steak and seems to be doing well on that diet. Again, he's extremely active and I'm not sure other people could do so well on such a limited diet.

Yes i have seen this - we have a doctor here at a university in Launceston Tasmania ( Dr Fetke ) who talks about this. He actually is a doctor who has to amputate limbs from people with diabetes issues and he puts it down to excess processed carbohydrates. The governing body here attempted to strike him off from commenting. He definitely has a point - it’s just that we don’t know the long term side effects of a meat diet - particularly Witt bowel health.

 

[WYK]

For anyone who's been on a Carnivore (Zero Carb) Diet or the beef-only version of this, the Lion Diet, for an extended period of time, what are your BUN/ Creatinine Ratio and LDL cholesterol levels?

A high B/C Ratio (> 20:1) can be a strong indicator that you are not getting sufficient blood flow to your kidneys. This can lead to acute renal failure, congestive heart failure, dehydration or gastro-intestinal bleeding.

Note that cats will nearly always develop kidney issues as they get older. For humans on a Lion/ Carnivore Diet, this can happen a lot sooner.

These diets sound like very extreme fad diets that can result in a myriad of health issues if continued for an extended period of time -- months or years. In addition to CVD, kidney failure and the other issues mentioned, there's a strong risk of liver disease, colon cancer, gout and constipation (from the lack of fiber). With a lack of fruits & veggies, the body will likely receive inadequate vitamins and micronutrients.

In addition to the personal health risks mentioned, a widespread adoption of these diets will undoubtedly lead to an increase in greenhouse gases / climate change.

Cats and dogs both get kidney and liver issues. Their diets tend to be rather high in protein, and often cholesterol(especially for canned animal food).

The problem with meat diets is the cholesterol intake can be quite a bit higher than what we've evolved to handle.
Yes, you will get a lot of protein, salts and nutrients, but you will also get a good deal of fat and cholesterol. Fat combined with cholesterol is often what causes problems with your arteries/LDL levels. So, leaner cuts, no frying, no high fat burgers, no lard, no sausage or Pâté(where the cholesterol can be sky high) etc etc, can be rather healthy in small amounts.
But getting it in large amounts means your kidneys and liver have to work harder. So check your LDL before and after to see how it affects you.

As far as tennis is concerned, you'll notice that many pros are vegetarians, or if they eat meat, it is mostly fish. If it is pork or beef, it is in very small amounts. There is a reason nearly all athletes have a 'cheat day' - they avoid junk food most other days. I am not saying we all have to be this way, but if they can live on a non or low meat diet, anyone can. So, it's probably better to consult your doctor or dietician to see how your bloods are and how your diet is handling you.

Most people enjoy these fad diets because it lets them eat what they want to eat. In this case, be aware you are not really dieting. What you are doing is eating.
In other words, if you find a diet that makes you think, 'That sounds great!', it often means it is not a healthy diet.

Eating out? It's gonna get worse -
A typical serving of meat where the USDA judges cholesterol is 3.5 ounce, or about 99 grams. When you go out, most servings will be 2-4X that.
As someone who has worked in the restaurant industry and still works with a wedding catering friend on occasion, be aware that if you go out to eat and have chicken, that often it can taste great brined and simply seasoned and cooked in vegetable oils and covered for part of it's cooking and mixed with corn starch to keep it juicy.
Beef, on the other hand, usually requires more fat than chicken to be palatable when you are dining out. Restaurants will use or mix in cheap high fat cuts with their meat to make them more savoury and easily chewed in dishes where it is sliced or cut like Chinese, Italian, in pastries or pies, or in Stroganoffs or bourguignons - especially if they mainly use cheaper cuts. Also, the lard itself will be used to make the sauces(and geziz does it make the sauces taste great), but it jumps those cholesterol levels sky high if your body has to process it.
If you are having a steak, they can't cheat it with starches like they can chicken(unless you really want the cholesterol wagon a chicken fried steak is), it will be buttered(which has more than twice the cholesterol by weight than beef has), often larded or au jus'd, and it will be a well-marbled cut unless you ask for it to be cooked well done(at which point, you are guaranteed to get the worst/leanest cut of beef they have). If you do ask for well done, you absolute monster, it will be drowned in butter to make it palatable - often times it will be draped in some au jus, too(which means more lard).

Bon chance.

 

[WildVolley]

Cats and dogs both get kidney and liver issues. Their diets tend to be rather high in protein, and often cholesterol(especially for canned animal food).

The problem with meat diets is the cholesterol intake can be quite a bit higher than what we've evolved to handle.
Yes, you will get a lot of protein, salts and nutrients, but you will also get a good deal of fat and cholesterol. Fat combined with cholesterol is often what causes problems with your arteries/LDL levels. So, leaner cuts, no frying, no high fat burgers, no lard, no sausage or Pâté(where the cholesterol can be sky high) etc etc, can be rather healthy in small amounts.
But getting it in large amounts means your kidneys and liver have to work harder. So check your LDL before and after to see how it affects you.

...

When you say that cholesterol intake is higher than we're evolved to handle, do you mean grain fattened meat? Or selectively eating the fatty cuts?

I'd argue that widespread agriculture is a rather recent event and that humans most likely evolved to eat a hunter-gatherer type diet in which the preferred foods were fish (why people lived on coasts) and meat with fruit and tubers depending on the climate.

I've become highly suspicious of the standard establishment promoted healthy diet, but believe the advice to cut out heavily processed food is correct. Research of diet has been heavily influenced by people who are vegetarian for religious reasons.

Doing quality nutritional studies is difficult and a lot of what we 'know' is based on evidence that's rather flimsy and highly confounded. One weird thing is that some of the areas we're told where people live the longest are places with high meat consumption such as Hong Kong and Okinawa.

 

[WYK]

I'm not claiming you need to never have meat. Re-read my previous post.

Basically, when many argue we were heavy meat eaters(and we weren't, we still predominantly ate fruits and veg according to fossil records), we didn't often live long enough to worry about heart disease. Very few other animals alive today are primarily meat eaters, and of those, none live terribly long lives. Of those that do eat meat, the ones that mix in fruits and other sources of protein and nutrients live the longest.
On a mix of fruits, grains and meat, we can do much, much better than middle age.

Foraging didn't mean we were using combines. We have been hunter-foragers since we were not on two legs. There is very little evidence we, or any of our ancestors, ever had a heavy meat diet.
And when we did hunt for meat before wide-spread agriculture, it wasn't cows and pigs literally fattened on corn.
If you want to argue a prehistoric diet, then you sort of need to argue a prehistoric diet - not simply avoiding prosciutto.

Doing quality nutritional studies is difficult and a lot of what we 'know' is based on evidence that's rather flimsy and highly confounded. One weird thing is that some of the areas we're told where people live the longest are places with high meat consumption such as Hong Kong and Okinawa.

My mother was from Okinawa. She just laughed at what you said. Her diet was mainly rice and vegetables and seaweed with some fish here and there. And fish was not at every meal.
I ate, and still eat, many meals with just rice, seaweed and some pickled veg. You would know it as Sushi.

The third most common cause of death in Hong Kong is heart disease. Maybe a meat diet is catching up with them since they are moving away from fish.

You say 'know' as in it isn't scientific. There is a huge amount of scientific evidence that a diet high in cholesterol is not very good for most of us.
One of them being the fact heart disease is the most likely way you are going to die in the U.S.(and it's growing outside of the states now as well).
People are not getting heart disease from fruit.
Just like with tennis, being informed about your diet isn't easy, it takes effort. Claiming you can not put in the effort into your diet will have the same results as not putting effort into your tennis. Both will likely be bad.
Just like with tennis, if you do not have the right tools to determine how to practice, find someone that does have these tools.

Talk to a dietician and to your doctor.

If you do not trust either of these, or science, good luck.

 

[tennis3]

we didn't often live long enough to worry about heart disease.

Why do you say that?

 

[tennis3]

I've become highly suspicious of the standard establishment promoted healthy diet,

What is the "standard establishment promoted healthy diet"? What part(s) of it are suspicious to you and why?

Would you say that "most" people adhere to this diet? Or rather, would you say that people who do adhere to this diet are unhealthy as a result?

 

[WildVolley]

What is the "standard establishment promoted healthy diet"? What part(s) of it are suspicious to you and why?

Would you say that "most" people adhere to this diet? Or rather, would you say that people who do adhere to this diet are unhealthy as a result?

I'm talking about what is primarily promoted by public health authorities in the US. The healthy diet is said to be primarily grain based with multiple servings of fruit and vegetables and lesser quantities of lean meat and lean dairy.

I'm suspicious that grains, even whole grains, are particularly healthy for humans. I'm suspicious about the claims that animal fats are unhealthy and lead to heart disease.

Most Americans, at least that's the population I'm familiar with, don't eat even close to the healthy diet, as processed foods and especially soft drinks and packaged food makes up a high percentage of the calorie count. So I believe the standard promoted healthy diet would greatly improve the health of the population if it were more rigorously followed. I'm just not convinced that it is better than other whole food diets, whether that be paleo or even supplemented vegan diets that control grain portions.

Doing studies on humans is very difficult and most of the health reporting uses highly confounded and questionable evidence. Controlled studies in animal models are easier to perform, but a lot of times we don't seem to get the same results in humans.

 

[tennis3]

Most Americans, at least that's the population I'm familiar with, don't eat even close to the healthy diet, as processed foods and especially soft drinks and packaged food makes up a high percentage of the calorie count. So I believe the standard promoted healthy diet would greatly improve the health of the population if it were more rigorously followed. I'm just not convinced that it is better than other whole food diets, whether that be paleo or even supplemented vegan diets that control grain portions.

I'm pretty sure if people generally followed the guidelines (not necessarily rigorously), they'd be fine. There's no reason to go to extremes. Common sense should be more than good enough. But the "new normal" is very strange to me. It's bizarre to talk to people. If you take a "normal" person living in 2023 and transport him back 50 years, he'll appear "demented" compared to what was "normal" then. But everyone talks as if they eat a very healthy diet. I'm sure it's because everyone is just "smarter" now. That must be it.

But diet alone won't be good enough. If you're basically sedentary, you'll be unhealthy. Conversely, if you are really active, you can get away with eating basically anything (you just burn through it). But when you stop being really active, watch out!

 

[dsp9753]

I personally find these fad diets to be pointless. Unless you have a specific dietary need, what is the point? I feel like this is one of those gym bro type of things that people can go down a rabbit hole to optimize or perfect their diets. I know I personally dont eat enough protein a day so I supplement with protein powder becuase I specifically avoid red meat for health reasons. (Doctors told me red meat is an inflammatory and I have a herniated disc. Avoiding red meat as much as possible might help. I dont cut it out all together but I just dont eat it at home.)

One thing I noticed and read is that what do the top athletes around the world eat etc? And for the most part, they dont follow or restrict any specific type of foods. They just eat whatever they want and dont focus on optimizing Unless there is a specific dietary need. Maybe they will avoid certain feeds on or before game day becuase it makes them play worse but they dont cut out the “junk” all together. They just eat it on other days.

In the NBA PB&J sandwiches are notorious for being the perfect mid game/snack food.

If top athletes eat whatever, and i think it would work for most of us too. The fact that only super gym bro/body builders do this type of extreme diet is a red flag to me.

 

[WildVolley]

I personally find these fad diets to be pointless. Unless you have a specific dietary need, what is the point? I feel like this is one of those gym bro type of things that people can go down a rabbit hole to optimize or perfect their diets. I know I personally dont eat enough protein a day so I supplement with protein powder becuase I specifically avoid red meat for health reasons. (Doctors told me red meat is an inflammatory and I have a herniated disc. Avoiding red meat as much as possible might help. I dont cut it out all together but I just dont eat it at home.)

One thing I noticed and read is that what do the top athletes around the world eat etc? And for the most part, they dont follow or restrict any specific type of foods. They just eat whatever they want and dont focus on optimizing Unless there is a specific dietary need. Maybe they will avoid certain feeds on or before game day becuase it makes them play worse but they dont cut out the “junk” all together. They just eat it on other days.

In the NBA PB&J sandwiches are notorious for being the perfect mid game/snack food.

If top athletes eat whatever, and i think it would work for most of us too. The fact that only super gym bro/body builders do this type of extreme diet is a red flag to me.

The claim that red meat is inflammatory is contested. There are now multiple studies suggesting that simple carbohydrates are more inflammatory than red meat. Generally these studies have looked at red meat consumption and measured bio-markers for inflammation. For example, this study suggests that replacing carbs in the diet with red meat will reduce inflammation. https://jn.nutrition.org/article/S0022-3166(22)09064-2/fulltext

The earlier studies suggesting inflammation often were not correcting for BMI. Being fatter is correlated with more inflammation. Another obvious problem is that since red meat has been demonized, heavy consumers of red meat have more often been people who are not concerned about their health. This generally has been a population that doesn't exercise, smokes, and engages in other behaviors, such as consuming more trans-fats, that will tend to make meat look unhealthy.

Dietary stuff is extremely complex and most the current data is pretty shoddy.