Choking up on the racquet - Yes or No?

[acintya]

I find it pretty interesting as some people say that if they learned tennis strokes again they would never do it with a choked grip again. Can choking up really be so harmful? How did you guys for example learn a kick serve? It is pretty easier with a choked up grip - a lot more control.
I know the contact point is slightly different with a choked up grip but anyways. Are you against it or for?

just a little food for thought

sometimes i think we would play a lot better with shorter handles. Reach is not everything

 

[Raul_SJ]

Seen it advised for volleys... It does seem to give you better feel and more control on volleys.

 

[mbm0912]

I recently watched a video of a pretty high-level server, who was choking up on the racquet more than I've ever seen. I figured I'd give it a try, and found that I can actually hold the racquet looser, and have more control when choking up. I am 6'2 with long arms and a tired shoulder. I will continue this practice.

 

[2nd Serve Ace]

It would be better to just bring the elbow in a little closer to the body on certain shots.

Sent from my LG-LS993 using Tapatalk

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I find it pretty interesting as some people say that if they learned tennis strokes again they would never do it with a choked grip again. Can choking up really be so harmful?

Some people? Can you provide the names of both of these people?

 

[Wise one]

Hold the racquet with some of the grip sticking out behind the base of the hand. Not a whole lot, just a little. Maybe an inch.

 

[acintya]

Some people? Can you provide the names of both of these people?

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...learn-the-serve-how-would-you-proceed.640501/

this is just a continuation of this thread im just curious-how high level players practice - do they also do these drills?do they choked up on the racquet when they began to train: agassi,ivanisevic,sampras,fed..anyone?
im pretty sure ivanisevic started from the baseline
i just cant imagine some of the old players learning this way)
maybe we are overcomplicating things?
there are many online coaches teach this choked up stuff especially for the serve - but no one ever is talking about if they used this drills when they were beginners.time to ask salzenstein or someone similar...


sometimes i think they are inventing some stuff just to make new videos and make minutes

 

[acintya]

I recently watched a video of a pretty high-level server, who was choking up on the racquet more than I've ever seen. I figured I'd give it a try, and found that I can actually hold the racquet looser, and have more control when choking up. I am 6'2 with long arms and a tired shoulder. I will continue this practice.

share the video

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I often employ a short grip with students as part of progression. McCraw and Slazenstein, among others, also do this with serves, volleys and other strokes.

https://tennisevolution.com/dirty-diaper-topspin-kick-serve-1/

.

 

[acintya]

I often employ a short grip with students as part of progression. McCraw and Slazenstein, among others, also do this with serves, volleys and other strokes.

https://tennisevolution.com/dirty-diaper-topspin-kick-serve-1/

.

thanks for this.can you give me some numbers?how long do they employ the short grip?hoe manny days,weeks? once they master the groove,do they train ever with a choked up grip again?i am only interested in serve. it would be helpful if you would give me some numbers.thanks!

 

[mbm0912]

share the video

 

[Wise one]

He gets it!

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

thanks for this.can you give me some numbers?how long do they employ the short grip?hoe manny days,weeks? once they master the groove,do they train ever with a choked up grip again?i am only interested in serve. it would be helpful if you would give me some numbers.thanks!

Varies widely. For some students it's just a 1 day thing. For others, it might be several days or a couple of weeks. With some, it will be something they only do for 3-10 minutes before they start hitting full-grip serves. But they may do this progression for several weeks or a couple of months.

With some very young players, they may be using a short grip (all the time) for several months. Either that or they will use 2 different rackets. They'll use a racket of a length that is suitable for their height (or age). I try to encourage students to use a racket that is not too light or too short for their groundies. The longest & heaviest racket that feels comfortable to them. But, as they are learning the serve, they may be using a shorter racket -- if they have one.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

He gets it!

Look at post #8. He specifically asked mbm to share the video he referenced.

Some very good ideas here but there are also a couple of things he does that made me cringe. He talks about "wrist pronation". However, pronnation is really an action of the forearm; it is not a wrist articulation. Ultimately, the forearm pronates the hand (and the racket)... the wrist is just a joint between the forearm and the hand. Furthermore, the rotation of the hand/racket is a result of both external shoulder rotation as well as forearm pronation. But many coaches refer to this ESR + forearm pronation simply as "pronation".

I also cringe at the mention of "wrist snap".

But these are not really my primary objections to this video. He demonstrates "wrist pronation" and employs more wrist flexion than is necessary. He mentions "wrist snap" and then finishes with an exaggerated bend (flexion) in his wrist after contact. This is one of my major objections to the use of the term "wrist snap" -- it often results in an excessive flexion of the wrist -- which we see here. Some elite players will exhibit a very minor post-contact wrist flexion. Most have a more neutral wrist position after contact.

My other objection is his very low (right) elbow position for hit "trophy". He is correct in saying that the right shoulder will be lower than the left shoulder for the "trophy". This is shoulder tilt. His right elbow should be in line with this shoulder tilt. However, he shows a much lower elbow position for the trophy. He even serves with a very low elbow position -- even lower that Djokovic's low elbow position before he fixed it in 2010.

Novak's low elbow during trophy:

 

[MisterP]

Definitely useful on the serve.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Choking up is fine when learning the serve.

Never seen any experienced player choking up on the serve. It is always advised, at the very least, to hold the end of the grip.
Many, like Sampras will be well off the grip.

That gives you whip like looseness and power.

When I took serve clinics the instructors would always correct me if I was not off the grip.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Preferred trophy elbow position:

@mbm0912​

 

[Raul_SJ]

Preferred trophy elbow position:

@mbm0912​

Is the hitting elbow and hitting shoulder pretty much in line? Hard to tell because of the shoulder tilt.

I was practicing throws. Seemed to get farther distance when raising the hitting elbow to be about even with hitting shoulder.

I suspect that orientation is the best setup for ESR and drop.

I wasn't as low as Djok but a bit low on the throw. Think I got better result when I raised it even. Don't think I could throw ball very far at all with the Djok position.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Is the hitting elbow and hitting shoulder pretty much in line? Hard to tell because of the shoulder tilt...

Are you asking about the hitting elbow for Roger & Pete? I would say that is it "pretty much" in line with the shoulder tilt -- the tilted line described by both shoulders. Maybe not exact, but very close. Novak's elbow, not so close. The elbow in the "bodybuilder's" video is more off the line than Novak's.

While Pete Sampras' right elbow appears to be in line with his shoulder tilt, the elbow appears that it might be pulled back a bit more (a slight lateral deviation from the line). With it pulled back a bit more it would seem that Pete would his shoulder blades squeezed together a bit -- or his pecs/chest is stretched slightly.
.

 

[TnsGuru]

Is the hitting elbow and hitting shoulder pretty much in line? Hard to tell because of the shoulder tilt.

I was practicing throws. Seemed to get farther distance when raising the hitting elbow to be about even with hitting shoulder.

I suspect that orientation is the best setup for ESR and drop.

I wasn't as low as Djok but a bit low on the throw. Think I got better result when I raised it even

I know a few players who try to emulate the trophy pose with a dropped elbow (old Novak serve) rather than tilt the shoulders (lead shoulder higher than throwing side like Sampras/Fed) and I believe without the tilt your hitting shoulder is placed in a vulnerable position and susceptible to injury.

In addition, the shoulders turn is a little more natural with tilted rather than level shoulders through my experience. The cartwheel movement needed to hit up will be almost impossible without it.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Are you asking about the hitting elbow for Roger & Pete? I would say that is it "pretty much" in line with the shoulder tilt -- the tilted line described by both shoulders. Maybe not exact, but very close. Novak's elbow, not so close. The elbow in the "bodybuilder's" video is more off the line than Novak's.

While Pete Sampras' right elbow appears to be in line with his shoulder tilt, the elbow appears that it might be pulled back a bit more (a slight lateral deviation from the line). With it pulled back a bit more it would seem that Pete would his shoulder blades squeezed together a bit -- or his pecs/chest is stretched slightly.
.

I was only referring to the hitting shoulder. The hitting elbow position relative to hitting shoulder position.

The hitting shoulder and hitting elbow should be about in line with each other.

Of course you have to raise the non hitting shoulder to get the tilt. Without the tilt, you cannot throw or serve upwards... I think everyone , including Djok, gets the non hitting shoulder tilted correctly., Djoks problem is dropping hitting elbow below hitting shoulder.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I was only referring to the hitting shoulder. The hitting elbow position relative to hitting shoulder position.

The hitting shoulder and hitting elbow should be about in line with each other.

Of course you have to raise the non hitting shoulder to get the tilt. Without the tilt, you cannot throw or serve upwards... I think everyone gets the non hitting shoulder tilted, even Djok. Djoks problem is dropping hitting elbow below hitting shoulder.

Not sure why you are asking this. If the shoulders are tilted and the elbow is in line with this tilt then the elbow would, by necessity, definitely be below the hitting shoulder. Am I still not understanding the Q?

 

[Raul_SJ]

I know a few players who try to emulate the trophy pose with a dropped elbow (old Novak serve) rather than tilt the shoulders (lead shoulder higher than throwing side like Sampras/Fed) and I believe without the tilt your hitting shoulder is placed in a vulnerable position and susceptible to injury.

.

Djok's non hitting shoulder is tilted up correctly. His problem is dropping the hitting elbow below the hitting shoulder.

Raise that hitting elbow a bit to be in line with the hitting shoulder. From there, just tilt the non hitting shoulder upwards. The degree of tilt will be preference. Kyrgios has less tilt than other guys. Maybe because he is tall.

 

[Curious]

Started doing that on all shots, g’strokes, volleys everything. What’s the benefit of choking down on the handle except power, which is the last thing needed below 5.0 level?
By choking up, control of racket face, stability of racket at impact, hence consistency increase enormously. The racket literally becomes a solid extension of your arm. No wobbling and think about how crucial this is considering how even small movements can cause huge changes in racket face and launching angle.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

@Raul_SJ

Not sure why you are asking this. If the shoulders are tilted and the elbow is in line with this tilt then the elbow would, by necessity, definitely be below the hitting shoulder. Am I still not understanding the Q?

Let me say this another way. If you only reference the right elbow to the right shoulder, they will always be in line -- no matter where the elbow is wrt the shoulder -- because they are attached to each other via the humerus. That is why I prefer to reference the elbow position to both shoulders (that is, the shoulder tilt line).

Looking at Stanimal's right elbow,we could say that it is in line with his right shoulder. But it is definitely not in line with his shoulder tilt (even tho his tilt is minimal compared to most elite servers).

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I know a few players who try to emulate the trophy pose with a dropped elbow (old Novak serve) rather than tilt the shoulders (lead shoulder higher than throwing side like Sampras/Fed) and I believe without the tilt your hitting shoulder is placed in a vulnerable position and susceptible to injury.

In addition, the shoulders turn is a little more natural with tilted rather than level shoulders through my experience. The cartwheel movement needed to hit up will be almost impossible without it.

The low elbow might very well place the hitting shoulder in a vulnerable position and be more susceptible to injury. A high elbow, like seen with Tomic (below) or Wawrinka (above) can certainly lead to shoulder injury. Todd Ellenbecker has gone into great length on this.

With the low elbow, timing & consistency can be significantly trickier.

 

[Raul_SJ]

@Raul_SJ
Let me say this another way. If you only reference the right elbow to the right shoulder, they will always be in line -- no matter where the elbow is wrt the shoulder -- because they are attached to each other via the humerus. That is why I prefer to reference the elbow position to both shoulders (that is, the shoulder tilt line).

Here is an example of a low throwing elbow (elbow not in line relative to the throwing shoulder). Video says optimal elbow angle should be 85 degrees from torso.

I don't see why hitting (or throwing) elbow will always be line with hitting (or throwing) shoulder. The elbow position should be as Jeff demonstrates (throwing elbow about in line with throwing shoulder). If Jeff's throwing elbow position is lower, it will not result in a proper throw.

 

[Curious]

Will have to think about how to phrase the question clearly.In the meantime, some prelim pics.

Pic#1: I think of hitting elbow and hitting shoulder being in line relative to hitting shoulder. Like you were "elbowing the enemy" next to you.

Pic#2: I think of the hitting elbow and hitting shoulder still being ~ in line relative to each other. Only difference is that the front shoulder has raised... Or maybe I'm confused.

The issue is whether the elbow is on the imaginary line that goes between shoulders. Djoker pre 2012 elbow was lower than that line, Wawrinka’s is higher.

 

[WestboroChe]

Seen it advised for volleys... It does seem to give you better feel and more control on volleys.

I do it a lot on volleys. Especially if I’m struggling with control. However being short I am sacrificing even more reach so it’s a trade off.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Here is an example of a low throwing elbow (elbow not in line relative to the throwing shoulder). Video says optimal elbow angle should be 85 degrees from torso.

I don't see why hitting (or throwing) elbow will always be line with hitting (or throwing) shoulder. The elbow position should be as Jeff demonstrates (throwing elbow about in line with throwing shoulder). If Jeff's throwing elbow position is lower, it will not result in a proper throw.

Looks like we've strayed off on a tangent here -- unrelated to the OP. Hope it's ok.

I'm not really sure what you are are trying to get at here, Raul. For one, 85 degrees is very close to 90 degrees. Kinda splitting hairs here. For another thing, pitching a baseball is somewhat different than throwing a racket upward at a steep angle. Typically much more shoulder tilt for an elite tennis serve than for an MLB pitch. The vertical left (leading) arm tends to raise the front shoulder more for the tennis serve. The upward swing, along with this, should result in a greater shoulder tilt.

Then tennis serve, baseball pitch and football forward pass all employ a generous amount of ESR. The forward stride in baseball and in football aid in this ESR. They also employ an uncoiling of the torso. Elite tennis servers will employ an upward leg drive to aid in ESR. The torso uncoiling is often in more of an upward direction (for shoulder-over-shoulder action). The dangling weight of the racket and its downward movement can also be factors in developing greater ESR.

With the shoulders tilted, the right side of the body is no longer vertical -- or even straight. There is something of an arch to the side of the body. We can even see that in the image of the bb pitcher. He has a slight/moderate shoulder tilt -- so his right side is not straight. With the side of body altered in this manner, exactly what part of it do we use as a reference to say that there is an 85 degree angle between his body and his upper arm? Ditto for the tennis server. The side of the body is definitely not straight. This is one reason why I prefer to use the shoulder tilt line. It make more sense to me to use this reference that using the side of the body. We might say that the angle wrt the body is approximately 90 degrees.

Is it really 85 degrees or some other number? Difficult to say?

I don't really like using a single point, the right shoulder, as a reference for the elbow position. Better to use a line reference (like the shoulder tilt line) as a reference.

The elbow position for Jeff Salzenstein in the image that you captured is a bit misleading. He is not showing a shoulder tilt in this instance. However, for his actual serve, he does employ a significant shoulder tilt. So, with that tilt the elbow will be lower than the right shoulder -- but still in line with the shoulder tilt.

Tom Brady's elbow appears a bit low in the image shown. But, if you view actual videos of his forward pass, you'll see that is pretty much in line with the shoulder line. Note also that Brad typically launches his passes 0 degrees (horizontal) to 40+ degrees (for the long bomb). The racket for a tennis serve is moving upward around 60 degrees to 75 degrees for much of its upward swing path.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Looks like we've strayed off on a tangent here -- unrelated to the OP. Hope it's ok.


Is it really 85 degrees or some other number? Difficult to say? I don't really like using a single point, the right shoulder, as a reference for the elbow position. Better to use a line reference (like the shoulder tilt line) as a reference.

The elbow position for Jeff Salzenstein in the image that you captured is a bit misleading. He is not showing a shoulder tilt in this instance. However, for his actual serve, he does employ a shoulder tilt. So, with that tilt the elbow will be lower than the right shoulder -- but still in line with the shoulder tilt.

We can see Jeff stands with level shoulders and no shoulder tilt. Basically just to demonstrate a horizontal throwing motion and "elbow the enemy" move.
The serve is just a horizontal throw with added shoulder tilt to make it go upwards instead of horizontal.

And I think we agree the throwing elbow is in line with throwing shoulder in that level shoulders position.

Then we get to the shoulder tilt, and I guess that is the part I get confused on. When he tilts the front shoulder, IMO the above still holds; nothing has changed with respect to position of throwing elbow relative to throwing shoulder...

But as you mention, maybe it is more useful to reference the line between the two shoulders, the shoulder tilt line, rather than reference just hitting elbow/hitting shoulder... Will have to think about this...

When I was practicing throws, I was not thinking about the tilt of the front shoulder at all. (I suppose shoulders will naturally to get the ball upwards and attempt to hit the fence)... When I found that all my throws were landing a few feet short of the fence, I experimented by raising the throwing elbow higher in relation to throwing shoulder.

After I made that adjustment with position of throwing elbow relative to throwing shoulder, a few throws hit the fence.

 

[Bender]

Volleys, sure. Groundstrokes, no...my pinky barely touches the buttcap. Serve, somewhere inbetween.