Chris Evert an underrated giant.

[ATPballkid]

I completely agree that Graf wins less Slams, but it's ridiculous to speculate that she would have lost all the Slams except for Wimbledon. She had beaten Monica before the stabbing and many of the matches (like the 10-8 in the third FO final) were close.

From 1990 through April 1993 Steffi Graf was limited to winning only 3 of the major singles titles in women's tennis (3 out of 16 played during this time) ... Monica Seles, as a 2-handed teenage phenom, won 11 of these 16 singles titles (including 2 of the 5 in 1990 .. 4 of the 5 in 1991 .. 4 of the 5 in 1992 .. and the only 1 prior to the stabbing in 1993).

Anyone who wants to belittle the knife stabbing -- or brush it aside as if it had no significance -- has all of this to overcome.

No question about it, Monica Seles was easily the best player in women's tennis for the first half of the 1990s.

 

[ATPballkid]

I too love Monica and she is included in my top 10 list of all time greatest players but she's all the way at #10 which is a far cry from where Graf winds up on my list (#3). She probably would have been higher if not for the stabbing though.

Very possibly one of the top 5 women players of all-time along with Evert, Navratilova, Wills Moody and Court ... but now we have seen the #2 player of that era, Steffi Graf, take that spot after the true #1 of the early 1990s was stabbed in the back with a sharp knife by a Steffi Graf fan.

Those who know and remember ... we know how dominant Monica Seles was in those years 1990-1993 and we know the likelihood of her dominance continuing into 1993 and beyond. Anyone who dismisses this is just in denial.

 

[rogerfederer26]

Graf really has some unassailable qualifications including the 22 Slams, at least 4 of each Slam, and the Golden Slam in 1988.

As much as I admire Steffi Graf's accomplishments, I think they need to be viewed with a Big Monica Asterisk.

Another tangent: Monica's assailant was set free because he got what he wanted (Graf at No. 1) and thus would never commit such a crime again.

 

[bluetrain4]

Very possibly one of the top 5 women players of all-time along with Evert, Navratilova, Wills Moody and Court ... but now we have seen the #2 player of that era, Steffi Graf, take that spot after the true #1 of the early 1990s was stabbed in the back with a sharp knife by a Steffi Graf fan.

Those who know and remember ... we know how dominant Monica Seles was in those years 1990-1993 and we know the likelihood of her dominance continuing into 1993 and beyond. Anyone who dismisses this is just in denial.

Are you reading our entire posts? We're giving plently of credit to Seles and agreeing with you that Graf's slams would have been less if the stabbing had not happened.

You're right, Seles was dominating before the stabbing. All we're saying is that Graf was a good enough player that it doesn't make it automatic to assume that Seles wins every non-grass major if the stabbing hadn't happened. Yes, she may have won the majority, but I think Graf would have won a few as well.

You keep pointing out that it was a Graf fan that stabbed Seles, which is true. But, it's not Steffi's fault. I know you're not saying this, but the way you phrase it makes it seem like Graf's status wouldn't questioned as much if a non-Graf fan stabbed Seles.

 

[bluetrain4]

As much as I admire Steffi Graf's accomplishments, I think they need to be viewed with a Big Monica Asterisk.

Another tangent: Monica's assailant was set free because he got what he wanted (Graf at No. 1) and thus would never commit such a crime again.

Read my posts again. I agree with you. I addressed the Seles incident and said that is really does, to some extent, affect Graf's legacy.

I'm just saying, even with the stabbing, Graf was legit credentials. She still won the Slams, she won the Golden Grand Slam before the stabbing. I concluded that Graf wasn't the GOAT, but is still in the top 3.

 

[rogerfederer26]

I'm just saying, even with the stabbing, Graf was legit credentials. .

Steffi Graf won 11 of her grand slam titles after a deranged fan stabbed Monica Seles in April, 1993, when she was, at age 19, the best in the world and, obviously, in her prime. Graf had beaten Seles on Wimbledon grass in 1992, and the younger Seles had not demonstrated (yet) she could win on that surface. But 8 of the 11 slam titles Graf won after the Seles stabbing were on hard courts and clay, and Seles was already consistently dominating those surfaces. Without Seles blocking her path, Graf won titles it is unlikely she would have won if the younger and arguably more gifted Seles had been competing against her.

Allowing for her three Wimbledon titles post-Seles stabbing, Graf would likely have had "only" 16 or 17 slams if Seles had been the roadblock facing her in the draw of every major. And Seles, with years of greatness ahead of her could well have been the one with 22 or so slams, rather than the nine she finished her career with (just one following her return following the stabbing).

bottom line: the deranged german Graf fan altered women's tennis history.

 

[AndrewD]

Are you reading our entire posts?

bluetrain4,

A word of warning. When you see a poster constantly referring to the Seles-Graf incident it is not worth getting into a discussion with them. 'They' (how many of the handles are the same person is anyone's guess) get a sick and perverse thrill from constantly debating that incident (Freud would have a few things to say about why they focus on that one thing) and being given a forum in which to repeat, over and over again, the same key words. You're just feeding their fetish.

 

[FedSampras]

this is what the neurotic grafanatic and his "sockpuppets" is reduced to .........

very sad indeed.

 

[obanaghan]

The truth hurts but Chrissie was consistent and denefited from MN losing early at the US Open in 78 and 80 and Wimbledon in 81. MN should be graded down for her bad losses but it is not fair to say that CE's 18 Slams all were high quality wins only against top players. Some of the FO wins included wins over Jausovec in 83 and Turnbull in 79. I don't think the oponent in 80 at the FO was so great either.

What becomes clear in The Rivals is that many times at key matches MN won; 78 W, 81 US, 81 AO, 84 W, 84 US, 85 W, 85 AO. These were all matches that were close but MN prevailed.

That said CE was denied opportunities to pad her resume by not playing the FO from 76-78. Thanks a lot BJK!! There is no way she would have not won at least two of those maybe all three. Also someone should crunch the numbers and and divided each surface equally and see how MN and CE matched up. Indoors would not be weighted so heavily against CE.

All things said though CE can hold her head high and know that she won them all, beat them all and did it ore consitently week in week out than anybody.

Need I remind people that at age 15 only weeks after Court won the GRAND SLAM in 1970 CE beat her in straight sets. What girl in 1988 beat Graf right after the Olympics? That's right no 15-year-old did. Barely anyone did.

MN certainly revoultionized the sport and showed what a great athlete could accomplis when she put her mind into training. However, GOAT is for the whole career and losses to Pammy and Tracy and Wendy at SLAMS no less AFTER she had won Wimbledon in 1978 and attained true greatness are very telling and should count for a lot to tarnish her claim as GOAT.

 

[grafrules]

The main criteria that all the experts use for considering Graf the GOAT is her feat of surface mastery of winning each Slam at least 4 times which IMO would never have happened if Seles hadn't been stabbed. Sure, Graf would most likely have won all the Wimbledons she wound up with (7), but as for the AO or the French...I doubt it. It's also been said on these boards that Graf's dominance was extended beyond it's normal life span by the absence of Seles and I would have to agree with that so although I give Steffi all due credit for still playing after the Seles incident and I consider her to be one of the very best, I just can't put her as the GOAT and I'm not one of those who is suggesting that Seles was a greater player overall to Graf because the way that things played out that just isn't true.

I do indeed put Navratilova just a hair ahead of Evert in regards to the GOAT discussion only because Evert wasn't able to win one of those Wimbledon or US Open finals against Navratilova in the 80s, but if she had done so she would be the GOAT in my eyes. In reality though, little separates any of the four best women (Evert, Navratilova, Graf and Court) and any of them have a legitimate claim to be considered GOAT. IMO, the GOAT list goes like this for me: Martina, Chris, Steffi and then Margaret Court.

Although I rate Graf #1 all time on my list, your reasoning for not is perfectly valid and I would not try and change your mind. I certainly dont expect people to unaminously pick Graf #1 just because I do, and while I try to be objective in my reasoning, I do expect to a possible personal bias, which is probably true of alot of people. I will give you a few of my own perspective on it is all:

1)Regarding had the stabbing never taken place there are many unknown variables of significance. Biggest of all is injury. One of Seles's benefits prior to the stabbing was having never suffered a significant injury. One cant really predict when players can suffer future injuries which hamper them though. Graf who is the much more natural athlete would suffer some significant injuries which affected her career as she got older. There is no saying Seles too would not have run into injury problem at some point. For example when you look at Seles's shoulder injuries in 1996, would you attribute that to the stabbing? Can you be sure those type of injuries, which are pretty much certain to impact her performance if they did take place, would not have happened without the stabbing?

There are also personal problems, and how a player is able to cope is uncertain. I am not one who is going to make excuses for all Graf's losses at a certain point of her career due to the distractions from her nutty father, but that is an example of a personal problem that arises for a player. While it should not still be an excuse for their unwillingess to commit to tennis 100% so many years later the Williams did suffer with their sisters death. Navratilova suffered for awhile with the emotional effect of defecting, then her relationship with Rita Mae in the early 80s when she went into a brief "slump". For Seles it would be something like her dad's serious illness and eventual death. Things like these are unfortunate but they can arise at any time, and how a player deals is hard to project, but it is also not hard to imagine it impacting their performance in someway.

2)Graf did not retire until after 1999 Wimbledon. I dont find it that inconceivable personally that she could win 2 Frenchs, 2 U.S Opens, 1 Australian Open, which is what she needed to reach 4 of each, given that she would have had 6 and half years to do it. It certainly would not require "dominance" at any of the events per say.

3)It is just my opinion but I am not sure the period of 1990-early 1993 was really Graf's best tennis. To reflect my point I could list the head to heads she had with all the top players not named Seles, and compare them to before that period and after. I dont usually like that kind of over-analysis of each players results, but it would give some possible strong statistical indication to what I felt while watching her play during that time too. Were Sanchez Vicario, an even older Navratilova, Novotna, Sabatini, all just coincidentally much better that time period then any other? Since all of those players fared much better vs Graf head to head during that time then they did before or after this period. Although in Sabatini's case I would agree that was the period of the very best tennis of her career, not so sure on the others though.

Again though I am not trying to alter your opinion, I just thought I would share some of my own thoughts so my reasoning is not out in the dark is all.

 

[CEvertFan]

The truth hurts but Chrissie was consistent and denefited from MN losing early at the US Open in 78 and 80 and Wimbledon in 81. MN should be graded down for her bad losses but it is not fair to say that CE's 18 Slams all were high quality wins only against top players. Some of the FO wins included wins over Jausovec in 83 and Turnbull in 79. I don't think the oponent in 80 at the FO was so great either.

What becomes clear in The Rivals is that many times at key matches MN won; 78 W, 81 US, 81 AO, 84 W, 84 US, 85 W, 85 AO. These were all matches that were close but MN prevailed.

That said CE was denied opportunities to pad her resume by not playing the FO from 76-78. Thanks a lot BJK!! There is no way she would have not won at least two of those maybe all three. Also someone should crunch the numbers and and divided each surface equally and see how MN and CE matched up. Indoors would not be weighted so heavily against CE.

All things said though CE can hold her head high and know that she won them all, beat them all and did it ore consitently week in week out than anybody.

Need I remind people that at age 15 only weeks after Court won the GRAND SLAM in 1970 CE beat her in straight sets. What girl in 1988 beat Graf right after the Olympics? That's right no 15-year-old did. Barely anyone did.

MN certainly revoultionized the sport and showed what a great athlete could accomplis when she put her mind into training. However, GOAT is for the whole career and losses to Pammy and Tracy and Wendy at SLAMS no less AFTER she had won Wimbledon in 1978 and attained true greatness are very telling and should count for a lot to tarnish her claim as GOAT.

Every player undoubtedly has a Slam win against a 'lesser' player, even Graf. Anyone remember her 6-0, 6-0 demolition of Natalia Zvereva in 1988 or her wins over MJ Fernandez or Sukova? Winning a Slam against the likes of a Ruzici or a Turnbull isn't exclusive to Evert.

I do know that Navratilova and Evert played one another far more on the surfaces that favored Martina most (grass, and especially indoors which was Evert's worst surface) than they played anywhere else. Also Navratilova only ever beat Chris on clay (Evert's best surface by far) 3 times in 20 years. I could crunch the exact numbers if you like. I also reference it a bit in an earlier post of mine in this thread.