confused about body position during kick serve

[spacediver]

It's my understanding that you are supposed to toss the ball a bit in front of the baseline during a flat serve. I've noticed that when I don't, my body isn't fully extended during contact and appears to be leaning backwards.

However, in the kick serve, I've read that you're supposed to toss the ball above your head (and therefore not in front of the baseline). I was watching some footage of myself doing some kick serves and noticed that my body looked really unbalanced and leaning backwards during the contact.

How are you supposed to be fully extended at contact when you don't toss ball ahead of baseline during kick serve?

 

[LeeD]

You're not.
Different swingpath, body position, and followthru for the different serves.
Arc your back, swing upwards, followthru out to hitting side.

 

[SuperDuy]

You're not.
Different swingpath, body position, and followthru for the different serves.
Arc your back, swing upwards, followthru out to hitting side.

I think it is about swing path, for kick you want to swing out away from you. Then pronate racquet down. Hit bottom left of the ball brush up side. Arc back. Leg push UP. Today when I was warming up I hit a monster kick above my oponents head, he was only 5'4 but I guess that was some good height. I got a match in 20 minutes though. Im warmed up which is good this time. You play today lee?

 

[GetBetterer]

Well, I've looked at FYB videos to learn the Kick serve, and at first I was confuzzled. When I tried to throw it behind me and to the left, I got the same problem you did, only to see the video again and notice the guy named Frank was hitting it differently.

He tossed the ball up, mainly to the left but still a bit outward. The reason for this was because he wanted to hit the ball behind him AFTER his foot push.

 

[spacediver]

cool thanks for the input and insight all

 

[corners]

Look at Sampras. He hits a kick first and second. His first ball averages 120 mph with 2500 rpm. His second averages 100 mph with 2500 rpm. Both serves have very high topspin component according to analysis done at tennisplayer. net. Yet, if you look at his toss you'll see that both first and second serves tosses are into the court at least 2 feet, the second serve is simply further left.

Federer has a very similar serve, hitting topspin on both first and second. He doesn't throw into the court as much (because he's not coming to net) but again, both the first and second are into the court about the same amount, the second is just further left.

I think it's a mistake to try and hit a kickserve with a toss above the service line rather than into the court. I don't see how you can get any kind of body lean into that kind of toss. It's also well-known that a kick hit from that kind of toss increases risk of shoulder impingement and rotator cuff injury. With a toss to the left you're already putting the rotator cuff at risk. A toss back and left is, I think, asking for big trouble.

 

[MayDay]

Agree with all of the above. If I don't toss in front and let the ball "hang" back at the baseline, all my serves tend to go long, are slower and have less spin - unless I do some weird body contortion to salvage the serve, kinda ugly to watch. A good forward toss is key to starting a good serve.

I also think the general advice of "tossing the ball above your head" for kick serves should really be changed to "toss normally (forward, but slightly left if necessary) and move your head/body under the ball"....

 

[larry10s]

I also think the general advice of "tossing the ball above your head" for kick serves should really be changed to "toss normally (forward, but slightly left if necessary) and move your head/body under the ball"....

great advice

 

[charliefedererer]

You coil your upper body more on the kick serve, but totally uncoil it by the time of impact.

In the first four minutes of this video, Pat Dougherty, the Bolletieri "serve doctor" explains how to get your shoulder and hip rotation to power your first serve.

In the last minute and a half, he explains how the kick or topspin serve invovles more shoulder rotation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixx-MCC7D88

Because the arm is connected to the upper body at the shoulder, and the upper body is thus bringing the shoulder through a different, more "up directed" path through space, you will get that kick serve without having to actually change your swinging motion. It is the path the upper body takes that changes.

 

[Ash_Smith]

^^^ Yup, the toss is still infront, too many recreational or lower team players have the idea that a kick serve toss goes behind and therefore lack any kind of ball speed on their kick serve. The difference in ball position is left of centre - think of a clock face, for a flat serve the contact will be around 12 (i.e. above your head) for a kick serve you're moving it left toward 1130 (ish). Cant find the picture illustration for a kicker in my files yet but the below is for a flat (i'll post the second serve when I can find the file!)

Ash

 

[spacediver]

wow this is great information. I never knew you were supposed to toss into the court at all for a kicker serve. Looking forward to more experimentation next time I'm on the courts!

 

[Ajtat411]

Always toss into the court unless you want additional shoulder and arm issues. Plus, the forward momentum of your body will add pace to your serve.

This also applies to forehand and backhands. If you contact the ball behind your hand, you put a lot more strain on arm compared to hitting in front and or in the same plane as your hand. I notice this when I'm late on my preparation. It's getting better though after I realized this.

 

[corners]

I think it was in one of the FYB kick-serve videos where it was said that you could toss above and to the left for a normal kicker and more into the court for an "aggressive" kick serve. If it's not aggressive it's defensive, and I don't see the point of hitting a defensive serve ever. It's the only shot where you hold all the cards.

Watching Li Na against Serena yesterday it seemed that she was tossing left of where most of the women toss. She was looking for the kick, but her toss appeared to be directly above her - and the result lacked penetration. And serving was the difference in that match.

 

[spacediver]

wow tried it out today and it worked like a charm. No more awkward above the head tosses for me!

 

[GetBetterer]

Congratulations spacedriver, good to hear progress.