LA 5-1 not 4-1 (I know the draw was 64, any other info ?)
Kingston 2-1 not 3-1 (I know it was a 16 draw, Jimbo lost the semi; any other info ?)
+ South Bend 5-1 (t.)
Connors's special events
- Thread starter Carlo Giovanni Colussi
- Start date
Kingston 2-1 not 3-1 (I know it was a 16 draw, Jimbo lost the semi; any other info ?)
+ South Bend 5-1 (t.)
He had plenty of retirements and defaults early as well. It was not age related. This is something I read a long time ago. I'd guess the 70s probably in a magazine or newspaper feature on Connors. Someone stating, maybe another player, that Connors could throw his back out whenever he wanted. It was in the context of talking about how he needed to be mentally primed to really play. And if he knew he wasn't he could employ that trick. Maybe it was Riordan after they broke up. I honestly can't remember, but the part about his back I definitely read. Mind you, that doesn't automatically mean it was true. However, it is undeniable that he had his fair share of defaults and retirements.
While it's true that I think he tried everywhere, I don't know how much importance he was putting on an exhibition match with Agassi. I remember him beating him in one, I believe in Michigan, after the 88 Open match. Then he beat him in that skin games event. Most people weren't going to really remember them. They were going to remember the 2 US Open matches.
It's probably been about 35 year since I read SHORT CIRCUIT. Perhaps I'm remembering wrong, but I remember a lot about the shenanigans and appearance fees on the regular tour. I think most people thought there were certain guarantees with exhibitions and special events. Same would hold true for the challenge matches except CBS specifically advertised them as winner take all.
It's true what you support.
I'm sure that Jimbo was the player with more retirements in the history of tennis.
One day I will insert them in some thread, maybe this.
I suspect if you look at them as the % of all matches played, it's going to be a small portion...but am curious to see when and where, as well as the pattern over his career.
I know he had legitimate back problems...I had not heard the "throwing out his back" story before. Sure, they were exos, but they were big money exos. If you read his book (granted, it's an autobio) you get the impression he was pretty cash hungry. He's not going to risk his career in an exo, I agree w/you, but he played many of them pretty hard, based on observation as a viewer. Even on the Seniors Tour.
I have recovered some old data on the beginnings of Connors and found these feedback:
- Ojai - agree with the 1st post of introduction, then 4-1
- Los Angeles - agree with the 1st post of introduction, then 4-1
- San Diego I didn't find results in 1971
- Southampton - result of 1970 (not 1971) but nevertheless a US restricted tournament, not international.
Foreword: in the overall data I think it is not right to enter the results of the National Championships (only US) and Under 18 Championships.
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South Bend National Collegiate Tennis Championships (IN, USA) june, 14-19 :
1T : Glen Cripe W 6-2 6-3
2T : Fred McNair W 6-2 6-1
3T : Sandy Mayer W 6-3 6-2
QF: Robert McKinley W 6-2 4-6 7-5
DF: Haroon Rahim W 6-4 7-5 6-7 7-6
F : Roscoe Tanner W 6-3 4-6 6-4 6-4
6-0 but only american university tournament
Kingston 2-1 not 3-1 .. you are right, my mistake
I thought of holding another thread to Connors retirements, this thread was created for another reason.
Today I start it.
Depends on what one considers a small %. I have no idea what other top players' % is either. But what I do know is that I counted at least 30 from the ATP site which wasn't even counting almost all special events and exhibitions. I don't find that to be insignificant even in a close to 20 year career. Certainly too many for me to be surprised that he would retire from an exhibition match.
You named your initial post "Connors' unofficial matches", right? You told yourself that these are all matches not included in ATP, WCT etc.
Anyway if you don't count Ojai you have to exclude also Modesto. I count both as a part of the stats of Jimbo
1970
Ojai - Intercollegiate tournament 3-1; if you don't count it you have to exclude also Modesto
LA - Southern California Ch. was a normal tournament active since the 1920s, not restricted to anybody; so + 3-1
San Diego - normal tournament: winner was Haroon Rahim (Pakistani): no info that it was restricted; so + 2-1
Southampton - US Amat. Grass Court; no info that it was restricted; so + 2-1
So what? It's a part of the unofficial matches.
+ New York 0-1
I have no knowledge of this result, do you know from who Jim lost the match?
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Before entering into the merit, I think that it is correct to identify which tournaments should be considered non-sanctioned (let's forget not officials) at the beginning of the 70s... in the absence of ATP
Must be excluded:
- the tournaments of the three main circuits (Grand prix, WCT, IPA/USLTA),
- tournaments under 18.
Others consider themselves "all in", all included, do you agree?
Clarification: the Challengers are not a problem because they are introduced in 1978.
If you agree, it is easier to continue the discussion and get to the conclusion. Even though I have a feeling you're right.
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Clean Air Classic, carpet indoor, loss to Gerulaitis 6-4 4-6 6-3 in R32
To include or exclude matches it depends mostly on what you want to state or present to the public. That's why I don't say me or you are wrong or right.
My personal view if player's stats are concerned is that I include everything except legends' or veteran's matches which are more like demo matches for fun, for the public.
The intercollegiate tournaments (Ojai) and the amateur tournaments (Modesto, Southampton) were very important tournaments for the early development of the players. Tennis-wise they are very similar to the current challengers. The young players have to play official matches (I mean organised matches) in order to learn to compete in a tough match not in a practice match. Winning such amateur matches (challengers) give you enough confidence to think about the pro tour. Thousands players remain/remained at the amateur level, 5-10% more or less have the chance to play vs the lions.
As far as I know the above mentioned tournaments were not restricted "under 18". Players like Borowiak, Rahim who played there were 21-22 years old at that time.
So, if I am talking about a player I would like to enjoy all his/her stats. It's very very rare to see a guy like Jimbo with near 2,000 matches in his career. I admire his huge devotion to the play, something not common in tennis.
But it's up to you to choose the most appropriate approach for your view.
I think that you have shown me a way, I do not know if it is right. But you directed me.
Current Challengers could be equated to:
- Intercollegiate tournaments (type Ojai)
- Amateurs tournaments (like Modesto, Southampton)
The "Under 18 Championships" are excluded from these titles. In fact participating players like Borowiak, Rahim who played there were 21-22 years old at that time... ok.
So, I agree with you that it is correct to insert all the results of a player, but in the calculation of the results they must be divided into two categories:
1) non-sanctioned excluding intercollegiate tournaments and amateurs tournaments
2) Intercollegiate tournaments and Tournaments amateurs.
If it can be corrected,
- my list must be modified;
- the title won to Modesto among non-sanctioned should be removed
- the title won to Modesto must be included in a possible list of intercollegiate + amateur titles (always excluding the "under 18 Championships").
What do you think Ivan?
Ojaj … intercollegiate
South Bend… intercollegiate
Los Angeles…. Non-sanctioned
San Diego… Non-sanctioned
Kingston… Non-sanctioned
Modesto… amateurs
Southampton… intercollegiate
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Possible categorization. Other option is
1. Non-sanctioned pro tournaments
2. Non-sanctioned amateur tournaments (college matches are also amateur)
3. Single matches (exh.)
New York was NOT intercollegiate. Pasarell the winner was 28 years old, Pancho Gonzalez as runner-up was 44 !!! Too old for college guys but who knows.
1970:
Modesto AMATEURS
1R : Rodney Kop W 6-4 7-5
QF: Thomas Brown 8-6 3-6 6-3
SF: William Lloyd Brown 6-3 14-12
F : Robert Potthast 4-6 6-4 6-3
Los Angeles NON-SANCTIONED
+ Sanderly 6-1 6-4
+ Machette 6-4 3-6 6-3
- Fox 7-5 10-8
Southampton AMATEURS
+Fischer 9-7 6-3
+ Bailey 6-0 6-3
- McNair 6-4 8-6
1971:
Ojai Valley Catcher Cup (California, USA) april, 19-25 INTERCOLLEGIATE
1R : Michael Mullan W 6-4 6-4
2R : Sashi Menon W 6-3 7-5
QF: Roscoe Tanner W 4-6 6-2 6-3
SF: Tom Leonard W 6-3 7-6
F : Jeff Borowiak L 6-2 7-5
South Bend National Collegiate Tennis Championships (IN, USA) june, 14-19 INTERCOLLEGIATE
1T : Glen Cripe W 6-2 6-3
2T : Fred McNair W 6-2 6-1
3T : Sandy Mayer W 6-3 6-2
QF: Robert McKinley W 6-2 4-6 7-5
DF: Haroon Rahim W 6-4 7-5 6-7 7-6
F : Roscoe Tanner W 6-3 4-6 6-4 6-4
Los Angeles Southern California Championships (CA, USA) may, 3-9 : NON-SANCTIONED
1T : Steve Tiball W 6-0 6-1
2T : Robert Kreiss W 6-3 6-4
QF: Alex Olmedo W 7-5 6-3
DF: Haroon Rahim W 6-3 6-1
F : Pancho Gonzales L 6-4 4-6 6-1
San Diego South Coast Championships (CA, USA) november, 9-14 ? : NON SANCTIONED
1R : W ?
2R : W ?
QF: Steve Tiball ? W ?
SF: Glen Cripe ? W ?
F : Haroon Rahim L 6-8 6-3 9-7
Kingston Rothmans International (Jamaica) december, 13-16 : NON-SANCTIONED
1R : Matt Tate W 6-4 6-3
QF: Haroon Rahim W 6-4 7-6
SF: Clark Graebner L 6-3 3-6 7-5
1972:
New York NON-SANCTIONED
R32: Gerulaitis L 6-4 4-6 6-3
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Modesto - agree
LA - not sanctioned (South. Cal. ch. was a regular tournament with a history of around 50 years); it was the same tournament like in 1971 which you specify it "non sanctioned"
Southampton - agree
Kalamazoo - NOT; this was a boys' tournament; not the same for me like Modesto and Southampton
Total for 1970 it should be 14-4 non GP.
agree with all. New York is in 1972.
Total for 1971 it should be 25-4 non GP.
Total for 1972: 6-1.
14-4 ?
4-0 Modesto
2-1 Los Angeles
2-1 Southampton
.... ?
1971 25-4?
4-1 Los Angeles
4-1 San Diego
2-1 Kingston
1-0 El paso
3-0 Palm Springs
.... ?
1972 OK
3-0 Nottingham
0-1 New York
3-1 Ocean City
do you also have the matches / opponents, Ivan?
148 or 147 (Included ATP sanctioned and not-sanctioned, not included Amateurs and Intercollegiate)..depends on considering title or 3 exho match Palm Springs 1971
The following titles are to be excluded as comparable to the current Challengers:
+ 1 Amateurs (Modesto 1970)
+ 1 Intercollegiate (South Bend 1971)
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Yep.
SD
Q win to Brian Teacher 6-2 6-4
S win to Jeff Austin 6-2 6-4
F loss to Haroon Rahim 6-8 6-3 9-7
Ojai
R16 win vs Michael Sprengelmeyer 6-1 6-0
Q win vs Terry Neudecker 10-8 8-6
S win vs Douglas Smith 6-4 6-3
F loss to Jeff Austin 3-6 8-6 6-3
LA
R64 win - don't know the opponent and the score; but the draw for sure was 64 as in all years
R32 win vs David Sanderlin 6-1 6-4
R16 win vs Mike Machette 6-4 3-6 6-3
Q loss to Allen Fox 7-5 10-8
For now I have them 149 with the amat and intercollegiate and without Palm Springs.
Currently we don't know if Palm Springs 1971 was a tournament or 3 exo pro set matches.
Great work Ivan.
I do the first 2 years again.
1970:
San Diego South Coast Championships (CA, USA) NON-SANCTIONED
Q win to Brian Teacher 6-2 6-4
S win to Jeff Austin 6-2 6-4
F loss to Haroon Rahim 6-8 6-3 9-7
Ojai INTERCOLLEGIATE
R16 win vs Michael Sprengelmeyer 6-1 6-0
Q win vs Terry Neudecker 10-8 8-6
S win vs Douglas Smith 6-4 6-3
F loss to Jeff Austin 3-6 8-6 6-3
Los Angeles NON-SANCTIONED
R64 win - don't know the opponent and the score; but the draw for sure was 64 as in all years
R32 win vs David Sanderlin 6-1 6-4
R16 win vs Mike Machette 6-4 3-6 6-3
Q loss to Allen Fox 7-5 10-8
Modesto AMATEURS
1R : Rodney Kop W 6-4 7-5
QF: Thomas Brown 8-6 3-6 6-3
SF: William Lloyd Brown 6-3 14-12
F : Robert Potthast 4-6 6-4 6-3
Southampton AMATEURS
+Fischer 9-7 6-3
+ Bailey 6-0 6-3
- McNair 6-4 8-6
1971:
Ojai Valley Catcher Cup (California, USA) april, 19-25 INTERCOLLEGIATE
1R : Michael Mullan W 6-4 6-4
2R : Sashi Menon W 6-3 7-5
QF: Roscoe Tanner W 4-6 6-2 6-3
SF: Tom Leonard W 6-3 7-6
F : Jeff Borowiak L 6-2 7-5
South Bend National Collegiate Tennis Championships (IN, USA) june, 14-19 INTERCOLLEGIATE
1T : Glen Cripe W 6-2 6-3
2T : Fred McNair W 6-2 6-1
3T : Sandy Mayer W 6-3 6-2
QF: Robert McKinley W 6-2 4-6 7-5
DF: Haroon Rahim W 6-4 7-5 6-7 7-6
F : Roscoe Tanner W 6-3 4-6 6-4 6-4
Los Angeles Southern California Championships (CA, USA) may, 3-9 : NON-SANCTIONED
1T : Steve Tiball W 6-0 6-1
2T : Robert Kreiss W 6-3 6-4
QF: Alex Olmedo W 7-5 6-3
DF: Haroon Rahim W 6-3 6-1
F : Pancho Gonzales L 6-4 4-6 6-1
1R : W ?
2R : W ?
QF: Steve Tiball ? W ?
SF: Glen Cripe ? W ?
F : Haroon Rahim L 6-8 6-3 9-7
Kingston Rothmans International (Jamaica) december, 13-16 : NON-SANCTIONED
1R : Matt Tate W 6-4 6-3
QF: Haroon Rahim W 6-4 7-6
SF: Clark Graebner L 6-3 3-6 7-5
1972:
New York NON-SANCTIONED
R32: Gerulaitis L 6-4 4-6 6-3
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It looks perfect.
BECKER EN EXHIBICIÓN
REDACCION EL TIEMPO
24 de noviembre 1991 , 12:00 a.m.
Cien mil dólares en un partido de exhibición se ganó en Helsinki el tenista alemán Boris Becker, tras derrotar al estadounidense Jimmy Connors por 7-6 (7-4) y 6-4.
El triunfo y el premio le permitieron celebrar en grande al tenista germano su vigésimocuarto cumpleaños.
REDACCION EL TIEMPO
24 de noviembre 1991 , 12:00 a.m.
Cien mil dólares en un partido de exhibición se ganó en Helsinki el tenista alemán Boris Becker, tras derrotar al estadounidense Jimmy Connors por 7-6 (7-4) y 6-4.
El triunfo y el premio le permitieron celebrar en grande al tenista germano su vigésimocuarto cumpleaños.
Excellent finding! Jimbo has no wins vs Becker.
+ Kansas City 0-1 (loss to Borowiak) - tournament
+ Sunrise, FL 1-0 (won vs Gottfried) - single match
1974 (1-0)
Nashville - won vs Nastase - single match
1975 (10-3)
+ 1-0 Hamilton, Bermuda, vs Nastase - match
+ 1-0 Schreveport - vs Gerulaitis - match
+ 0-1 Rochester - vs Gerulaitis - match
+ 1 in Chichester - 4-1 not 3-1
1976 (11-2)
+ 1 Caracas 2-1 not 1-1
I have the same.
1978 (20-2)
+ 1 Beckenham 6-0
I have the same.
Great info, wooow.
Do you have the scores?
To Caracas I was only a victory v Borg and the final lost v Nasty.
To Beckenham is only for me:
1R : Russell Simpson W 6-3 6-3
2R : Ismail El Shafei W 6-2 6-2
QF: David Schneider W 6-2 9-8
SF: Sashi Menon W 9-8 6-1
F : Stan Smith W 9-8 6-3
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Kansas City 0-1 (loss to Borowiak) - 6-3 5-7 6-4Great info, wooow.
Do you have the scores?
To Caracas I was only a victory v Borg and the final lost v Nasty.
To Beckenham is only me:
1R : Russell Simpson W 6-3 6-3
2R : Ismail El Shafei W 6-2 6-2
QF: David Schneider W 6-2 9-8
SF: Sashi Menon W 9-8 6-1
F : Stan Smith W 9-8 6-3
Sunrise, FL 1-0 (won vs Gottfried) - 3-6 6-3 7-6
Nashville - won vs Nastase - 6-7 6-3 7-6
Hamilton, Bermuda, vs Nastase - 6-7 6-3 7-6
Schreveport - vs Gerulaitis - 6-4 7-6
Rochester - vs Gerulaitis - 6-7 6-4 7-6
Chichester - 4-1
R64 win to Boyne 6-1 6-1
R32 win to Braun 6-3 6-3
R16 win to Fawcett 6-4 7-5
Q win to Bartlett 6-2 6-4
S loss to Mitton 7-6 6-1
Caracas 2-1 - win to Panatta 7-6 3-6 7-5. It was a 4 man RR. Every player plays vs the other 3.
Beckenham 6-0
R64 : Peter Pearson W 6-2 6-1
R32 : Russell Simpson W 6-3 6-3
R16 : Ismail El Shafei W 6-2 6-2
QF: David Schneider W 6-2 9-8
SF: Sashi Menon W 9-8 6-1
F : Stan Smith W 9-8 6-3
Still waiting for the reply KG?
Let's wait a little bit more, then I will reply it.
As Ivan takes all his info from Tennisbase (he would have no clue without it
) and all these exhibition matches are on Tennisbase because of me, let's see.....NoMercy, if you put them on TB thank you. But Ivan is doing a great job and I thank him.Still waiting for the reply KG?
Let's wait a little bit more, then I will reply it.
As Ivan takes all his info from Tennisbase (he would have no clue without it
Yep, great job.NoMercy, if you put them on TB thank you. But Ivan is doing a great job and I thank him.
Copying results from a website.
Very good!
Proving again what a mean person you are.Still waiting for the reply KG?
Let's wait a little bit more, then I will reply it.
As Ivan takes all his info from Tennisbase (he would have no clue without it
You have to understand that the world is not going around you. The personal qualities of the people are far more important than any knowledge. You don't know some basic words like friendship, tolerance, discussion, good behavior.
If you wanted to help KG in his project you would have entered this discussion a month ago. But as usual you just reviewed the thread reading it discretely not willing to give your info. That's the big difference b/w you and other people, incl. also me. The tennis info is open for ALL people, not like you think for "divine" people. Unlike you I have no doubts to exchange info with people. You usually pretend for ownership and YOU LIKE TO HIDE an info. Well, I don't trust and don't care to your endless ownership attempts.
By the way you ignored one important sentence of Andrew in his last post. Instead of that you only wanted an info from him.
Anyway, KG has done an excellent job in collecting all possible info and I am glad I can help him in his good project.
Blaming people is your usual activity. GREAT GREAT SHAME!
NoMercy, we know each other since you wrote in a very competent manner on Ubitennis (I wrote but also to a lesser extent) and you have always been a source of information.Yep, great job.
Copying results from a website.
Very good!
But this time I do not understand you.
This thread was created by hoodjem with lots of information, reported by Colussi, then went on with information from other posters over the years, I tried to make order adding the exhibitions but I was at a standstill and Ivan helped me to continue.
All copying, take material and informations from other sources.
I think I'm one of the greatest copiers, I did not create anything in this space.
I take informations from other posters or other sources and I try to reason.
Why do we have to fight? I've done it in the past with BobbyOne, he's been banned. And even if he was unbearable, I'm sorry now.
I will not fight for sure.
Also, I have Ivan in ignore, so even if I want, I can't do it
Just wanted to let you know that asking something too much in detail to him is useless, as he is not the source of those info.
There is no problem in copying and using Tennisbase (or whatever else source), but it should be written.
"I found these results here...." or "As per ........ the following are the results".
Interesting who requires mentioning the sources. The man who gave an info in the last year in the forum with not more than 5-10% covered with the all specified sources. Very interesting.I will not fight for sure.
Also, I have Ivan in ignore, so even if I want, I can't do it
Just wanted to let you know that asking something too much in detail to him is useless, as he is not the source of those info.
There is no problem in copying and using Tennisbase (or whatever else source), but it should be written.
"I found these results here...." or "As per ........ the following are the results".
+ Ch. of champions 4-1 (played in Jan 81 but referred to 80)
+ Milan 2-2 (wins vs Gerulaitis and Solomon and losses to Panatta and Noah)
+ Ottawa 1-0 (win vs Nastase 6-4 6-2) - single match
+ Stuttgart Cup 0-1 (4-man, loss to Panatta, I don't know the score)
The total should be 32-6.
Thank you, tomorrow I check better (now I eclipse) but I see that you have reported the news that most interests me because it is a year that I look for (then I'll explain better) ... Ottawa.
A long story.
About a year ago I discovered through an american newspaper (when I had more access… “damn”) that Connors and Nastase faced 3 times in North America in April (it was called “Challenge .....” I don’t remember well).
For 5 or six days the newspaper was legible and reported some passages on two of the three matches (those that took place in Detroit and Toronto) then referred to a third match that would take place in Ottawa, but the two days immediately after the date of the match the newspaper was not readable… “double damn”.
Not finding the news anywhere else, I came across the site on the community of Ottawa facebook and a man reported a dozen lines referring to the match he saw many years ago in Ottawa with a photo of Jimbo as he enters the court with a shirt from a hockey or baseball team.
I tried to see to contact the man because he didn’t report the result of the match, but I tragically discovered that the man died in an incident.
A match Connors - Nastase with Ilie in a descending parable has no value, but historically it has made me happy.
