Courier Forehand

Medved

Medved

Rookie
I watched him on the champions tour and I remember how fierce the Courier forehand was. It won 2 French Opens I believe.

A lot of guys hit with a Western grip now, but Courier seems to hit it flatter. Every forehand he hits puts his opponent on the defensive. What does he do different? Does being 5'10" allow him to flatten out more balls as he takes them on the rise? And he's accurate with it. I wonder why we don't see more young players trying to emulate the Courier forehand.
 
Legend of Borg

Legend of Borg

G.O.A.T.
If players tried to emulate him, they might make a lot more unforced errors. Remember, it's riskier hitting flat than with topspin.
 
daddy

daddy

Legend
Medved said:
I watched him on the champions tour and I remember how fierce the Courier forehand was. It won 2 French Opens I believe.

A lot of guys hit with a Western grip now, but Courier seems to hit it flatter. Every forehand he hits puts his opponent on the defensive. What does he do different? Does being 5'10" allow him to flatten out more balls as he takes them on the rise? And he's accurate with it. I wonder why we don't see more young players trying to emulate the Courier forehand.
Click to expand...

Jim Courier is actually a 6'1" and the built he had made him look less tall than he is. He was a clean hitter of the ball with excelent talent and hand to eye coordination and flawless movement allowing him to hit a lot of flat balls, but he used to put a lot of spin to it when he wanted to or when the flat fh did not work - to increase the margin for error.

It is not the easiest of game for trying to emulate it, you have to be really advanced player to give it a shot really.
 
jmsx521

jmsx521

Hall of Fame
If you want to watch him at his best, watch 1992-93-94 tapes! It's a bit unorthodox… a muscled shot that puts lots of pressure on the wrist. It works more with smaller head-size rackets. His FH was not a sweep, but a push forward. With the current bigger head-size rackets that players use nowadays – it’s pretty much impossible to control it with the Courier-type of swing. And with a longer racket… just forget it!

I actually did emulate him for a long time when I was young. With thin-beam small head-size rackets -- it works... and with anything bigger, don't bother.
 
Medved

Medved

Rookie
Do you think that may be why Federer uses the smaller head racket? It seems like the flatter trajectory of his forehand is what makes it penetrate better than most. Do you think that most people just wouldn't be skilled enough or have sufficient time to perfect and make effective) to emulate a Federer forehand?

Yeah, you're right, Courier is listed as 6'01". I had bad information on that one. Do you think he doesn't miss as much playing on the champions tour because the other players can't pressure him as much, or is it because he's just gotten really consistent at his somewhat unique shot.
 
Legend of Borg

Legend of Borg

G.O.A.T.
Medved said:
Do you think that may be why Federer uses the smaller head racket? It seems like the flatter trajectory of his forehand is what makes it penetrate better than most. Do you think that most people just wouldn't be skilled enough or have sufficient time to perfect and make effective) to emulate a Federer forehand?

Yeah, you're right, Courier is listed as 6'01". I had bad information on that one. Do you think he doesn't miss as much playing on the champions tour because the other players can't pressure him as much, or is it because he's just gotten really consistent at his somewhat unique shot.
Click to expand...


Federer's racket head size is smaller, because it gives him more control, and he can handle producing his own pace, unlike bigger frames which focus on power. Just my opinion.
 
daddy

daddy

Legend
Medved said:
Do you think that may be why Federer uses the smaller head racket? It seems like the flatter trajectory of his forehand is what makes it penetrate better than most. Do you think that most people just wouldn't be skilled enough or have sufficient time to perfect and make effective) to emulate a Federer forehand?
Click to expand...

I don't really know. I guess Federer has enough control and skill to make use of the small frame and create great racket head spead for which he is known. That further enables him to create pace as someone mentioned, while having total control. I can see how some other guys who have more action to their forehands like Nadal and Djokovic make good use of their 98 or 100sq inches rackets.

Courier was not that similar to Federer. I recal him looking like his shots came out of his back yet he was able to keep excelent balance. Somewhat unortodox but worked well for Jim. But thats hard to pull off for non pro players.

As for pro players, I stated before that I do firmly believe they are talented enough to choose how will they hit a ball. Sampras switching from 2 hander to 1 hander on backhand side is one good example. Im pretty sure that Federer can hit as solid twohander as you like for example. Its just a matter of choice for them.
 
bumblebee

bumblebee

Rookie
i used to do it, but i advise all to not to because he was a great athlete, and it gave me wrist problems becuz my wrist isn't flexible enough to hit through the ball with a western grip like courier
 
D

Defcon

Hall of Fame
Learning a western forehand is a recipe for injury. Its a grip that is outdated and it limits your game.
 
T

Tony Mac

New User
I would consider the western grip to be a more "modern" one. Tons of players are using it, and with the right technique, you shouldn't have injury.
 
V

Vision84

Hall of Fame
Courier was in an age where it was easier to hit with flatter forehands. Now with all the Western grips and modern technology it would be much more difficult to win the French. Just look at how much Federer struggles with Nadal's topspin.
 
T

!Tym

Hall of Fame
Vision84 said:
Courier was in an age where it was easier to hit with flatter forehands. Now with all the Western grips and modern technology it would be much more difficult to win the French. Just look at how much Federer struggles with Nadal's topspin.
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That has very little to do with it imo. Courier was a like lighter that flicked on with no break during his prime until finally the spark kind of went dead, ran low on lighter fluid for the rest of his career. He sufferred from 'dead arm' for the rest of his career, and could never cure that no matter what he tried and he also simply just burnt out. Even Muster burnt out VERY suddenly. It's almost humanly impossible both mentally and physically to maintain that type of intensity that these guys at their peaks did for any extended duration of time, imo.

Courier could handle topspin just fine, his upper body was built like a rock and his legs were like tree trunks.

His problem was that he was a bit mechanical and not the most natural of players. He had a rigid, unbending way of playing and moving that required him to be at the utmost of his physical and mental capacities to dominate.

As for Federer, he doesn't have problems with topspin. He has problems with Nadal's LEFTY topspin into his one-handed backhand. That's brutal for virtually any one-hander to handle. Federer also has more of an all-court stylized one-hander. More emphasis on variety off that side during his formative years than the ball sweeping topspin. Felix Mantilla, Alberto Costa, Alex Corretja, Gustavo Kuerten, Thomas Muster, Nicholas Almagro, Gaston Gaudio, Tommy Robredo, etc. These guys all have fabulous one-handed backhands, but they're backhands were honed over the years more with clay court tennis in mind. It makes a difference. They don't have quite Federer's variation on the backhand, but that's ok for them on clay, because that's not what they were practicing off that side all those years. Their backhands were drilled with the thought of both dishing out and handling heavy topspin. Federer's backhand stroke by contrast is less elongated, and more of a swiping motion rather than a sweeping motion. He simply needs more of a loping motion off that side to combat Nadal's topspin in my opinion.
 
T

!Tym

Hall of Fame
superstition said:
What's amazing is that he had such great results considering his horrific backhand.
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I don't think he really had a horrific backhand. It was rock solid, just not pretty. Certainly better than Roddick's backhand for example. Courier's only real problem on the backhand I'd say was that he lacked improvisational feel off that wing and lacked the grace and coordination to storke it effectively when his feet weren't set. Prime Coria (and Arantxa for the women), for example, is about the best I've seen at hitting backhands on the run or open-stance with full steering wheel control.

Courier also could mash his first serve with great direction, and his fitness during his peak was two notches above his closest competitors as well. Also, he was very clutch during his peak as well and other players feared him on important points, because they knew that when the going got tight, Courier kept swinging...if not even harder. Watch the end of the 93 French finals against Bruguera, and with the match on the line, the guy did the exact opposite of Coria. It was like he just grew angrier and more determined and decided to let it out on the ball. It was like he DEMANDED of himself to make big shots on important points.

Also, Courier's variety was underrated. His slice backhand was ugly, but he really knived it and was consistent with it and got a lot of stick on it relative to most slice backhands. He also was a very opportunistic and willing volleyer who knew how to pick his spots and volley off easy winners to conserve energy when necessary or to keep you guessing. He was a rigid, mechanical, buttocks ugly volleyer, definitely, but he was also a highly profficient one.

That was always the thing with Courier's game. He was BY FAR the least graceful technician I've ever seen on a court, yet the bottom-line was that he had a way of making his utter wretchedness translate into just plain effectiveness. Was the weirdest thing and it defied all logic, but the results were always right there for you to see and you didn't know how he did it. I guess you could say his strokes reminded me of wretched poetry, poetry so wretched that it just works...if that makes any sense.
 
Harry_Wild

Harry_Wild

G.O.A.T.
Medved said:
I watched him on the champions tour and I remember how fierce the Courier forehand was. It won 2 French Opens I believe.

A lot of guys hit with a Western grip now, but Courier seems to hit it flatter. Every forehand he hits puts his opponent on the defensive. What does he do different? Does being 5'10" allow him to flatten out more balls as he takes them on the rise? And he's accurate with it. I wonder why we don't see more young players trying to emulate the Courier forehand.
Click to expand...


I don't think he is so short! He like maybe 6' 2-3" and he is very muscular and big bones! Weighes maybe 225????

I saw him in person back in 1996?? and he was as big as Carlo Moya! Philipossisisess was taller but the same width in the shoulders.

In other words; he is built! And he is big size too!
 
drakulie

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
^^Again, it was extremely effective. If it wasn't, he wouldn't be sitting on 2 French and 2 AO opens, which were the two slowest slams.
 
drakulie

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
^^Done. After I made my case, and included Borg's "horrific" backhand, and how we was able to win multi-ple slams with it>>> He said I was correct, and he will stop being so hard on himself. He also asked me to tell you to stop starting stupid threads.
 
J

Julieta

Guest
drakulie said:
^^Done. After I made my case, and included Borg's "horrific" backhand, and how we was able to win multi-ple slams with it>>> He said I was correct, and he will stop being so hard on himself. He also asked me to tell you to stop starting stupid threads.
Click to expand...

If Courier would talk to anyone on this board, it would be you. :) I think you need to ditch your current job and become a sports agent!!!! You even got a reply from Mark Keil!!!!
 
superstition

superstition

Hall of Fame
Julieta said:
If Courier would talk to anyone on this board, it would be you. :) I think you need to ditch your current job and become a sports agent!!!! You even got a reply from Mark Keil!!!!
Click to expand...
I talk to Federer, myself. I have his number. Got it out of a different Cracker Jack box. He said drakulie's absolutely right about Courier's forehand.
 
H

HoVa

Rookie
Courier's inside-out forehand was amazing.

he got to the ball so fast and would just crush the ball.

The trajectory that he got on that thing was low but with lots of topspin.

The dude definitely didnt have pretty strokes but I guess that didn't stop him.
 
Stinkdyr

Stinkdyr

Professional
Courier yes! he actually had a pretty

sweet backhand..........

<a href="http://tinypic.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i26.tinypic.com/290x40k.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"></a>
 
Stinkdyr

Stinkdyr

Professional
wait wait, Courier had a really

sweet backhand............

290x40k.jpg
 
SAFINATORZ

SAFINATORZ

Hall of Fame
Great forehand on a slower surface, just a mediocre forehand on a faster surface. too bad he could've dominated more in the 90's if and only if he would've done something about his backhand or had a better service motion.
 
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