dak95_00
Hall of Fame
The people who say this are the same ones who string poly at 60+ and don’t understand snap back.
Decline of Prince?
- Thread starter thelimfactor
- Start date
bluetrain4
G.O.A.T.
I'm 47. Used Prince since I was a kid - not exclusively, but consistently. Most recent was Diablo Mid and POG OS in the early/late 2000s. Haven't tried any in a while simply because i don't change frames as much anymore. But, I would.
Haven't read the whole thread, but I'm sure people have mentioned how the brand has been sold multiple times. It's basically a brand license now - whomever owns the brand picks a place to have Prince racquets manufactured and the Prince name put on it. There's no exclusive Prince factory or anything. This isn't unusual.
Haven't read the whole thread, but I'm sure people have mentioned how the brand has been sold multiple times. It's basically a brand license now - whomever owns the brand picks a place to have Prince racquets manufactured and the Prince name put on it. There's no exclusive Prince factory or anything. This isn't unusual.
Crazy Finn
Hall of Fame
I don't know about "potential" but it's a bit easier to generate racquet head speed with a 11.2-3 oz Pure Aero than a Prince Original Graphite at 12.2 oz.
dak95_00
Hall of Fame
The swingweights are very close and you’re telling me that an ounce of static weight keeps you from generating racquet head speed? I feel like the police are about to knock down my door for talking to a 12 y/o girl over the Internet.
Come on now! 1 oz? 4-8 grams? Please!
THIS RIGHT HERE IS WHY AMERICAN TENNIS SUCKS! Who was our last great champion? That dude was playing a darn near 20 oz stick as a pubescent kid. I can’t take it any longer! Crazy fits!
D
Deleted member 768841
Guest
Please, don’t bring up American tennis...
Crazy Finn
Hall of Fame
Good lord, don't get your Pampers in a twist. Or do and keep yelling at clouds. I don't care. My Wilson Pro Staff 5.5 was the same weight at the POG. And yes, I do generate a little more head speed with my slightly lighter Babolats. Not much, but some.
Prince made the Prince Warrior 100L ESP. 9.6 oz / 314 Swingweight / 14 x 16 string pattern. I actually have one, as my friend thinks it's a good racquet. I'm not sure I agree and it's not one that I use in a match, but you can generate crazy spin with it. Now, actually hatting usable shots with it....
The crazy thing is Prince actually put the 14 x 16 pattern in a 115 square in racquet - the Premier 115L ESP. I think I hit with it for kicks as a demo, it was difficult to keep it in the baseline. Could have been a different stick, though.
dak95_00
Hall of Fame
CLOUDS KEEP MOVING!!!!!
The craziest thing I’ve ever seen or tried was a Snauwaert Hi Ten. I don’t remember what the pattern was but there were literally 1 sq in squares throughout the stringbed. The ball just sailed. Well, first it flew really high with crazy spin but it wasn’t for me. I Bet that Prince was similar.
dak95_00
Hall of Fame
Did he win one? I can’t remember. If not, it was likely Rafter.
Women would have to be Sharapova.
Crazy Finn
Hall of Fame
Ferrero won the 2003 French Open.
speedysteve
Legend
Big John still believes.
As does Granollers (O ports), Andujar (O ports) and Pouille of course.
As does Granollers (O ports), Andujar (O ports) and Pouille of course.
Crocodile
G.O.A.T.
I think it’s tough to come back in the racquet market when you have had financial issues. I too did use Prince in the 80’s and 90’s, they had very nice racquets and were classy frames for their time.
I do like however their current tour and phantom range and the beautiful flexibility they have. Perhaps their range could do with some more vibrant cosmetics, too many black and green racquets, I guess they now have a tinge of purple in them and the red beast is ok. I think they need time to gather some momentum and they need to get out in the tennis community and do some networking with coaches, associations and shops. I believe they are doing better in the US than Australia.
I do like however their current tour and phantom range and the beautiful flexibility they have. Perhaps their range could do with some more vibrant cosmetics, too many black and green racquets, I guess they now have a tinge of purple in them and the red beast is ok. I think they need time to gather some momentum and they need to get out in the tennis community and do some networking with coaches, associations and shops. I believe they are doing better in the US than Australia.
@Crocodile I play at a club on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland with about 60 members and besides me using Prince Tour 100 sticks (ports) there would be maybe 3 other players using Prince frames. Heads and Wilsons for the older players and Babs for the younger ones. Prince just doesn't fly in Australia.
haqq777
Legend
Lucas Pouille uses a Pure Drive now. One of the problems I believe with the brand is also current lack of players wielding racquets with the P stencil.Big John still believes.
As does Granollers (O ports), Andujar (O ports) and Pouille of course.
speedysteve
Legend
Oh bollocks! Another one to the dark side [emoji846]
lefty10spro
Semi-Pro
Last I checked there are 28 grams in an ounce. No one in tennis history swung a 20 ounce stick. Just weighed a Dunlop Maxply Fort. 13.6 ounces and only 3 pts. headlight. Gotta be crazy fit to keep swinging a heavy racket fast over a multiple hour match and thousands of reps. Don Budge was reported to have swung the heaviest stick ever made at 15 oz. IIRC.
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max
Legend
Babalots marketing guy CAME from Prince, and when they began selling frames they stole a page from Prince's initial marketing-----put a Prince in the hand of every up and coming player, and a few will stick with the company when they make it big. In my area, Prince gave out frames to very good kids.
dak95_00
Hall of Fame
I beg to differ. I once had one of Gabriela Sabatini’s Yamaha racquets which I had purchased at a thrift store for $0.90 and later sold to a person who knew the story of my find for $650.
It had more lead than Flint’s drinking water! There were multiple pictures of her playing the POG with equal amounts of lead.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
The dark side is a pathway.........................................
BDAZ
Hall of Fame
And I’m sure that almost as soon as you bought your POG, Agassi switched to Donnay. He only used Prince for the first few fledgling years on tour, which is a shame. Imagine if he’d won that 1992 Wimbledon with a POG, or if he was using it during his 1990 French and US Open finals matches, and then again at Roland Garros in ’91, and coming virtually out of nowhere to win the 1994 US Open. If he were using Prince instead of Head when he ascended to #1 in ’95, and during his resurgence in ’99 and thereafter, I think Prince would have a very different story. As someone said above, they need a real, very marketable champion. What was the last Prince racquet to win a Grand Slam? Capriati, JFC? Edit: I guess probably Sharapova.
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Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Saw and held a Kramer Auto with a 5.25 inch grip that weighed over 15 oz. A commercially available woody
I see some people like my previous post about variety of tennis racquets brands among pros in the 80's
.
Let's look at this list of seeded male players of US Open 1987 ( have female list also but not so interested in ) with racquet brands used by them at that time:
1. Ivan Lendl - Adidas
2. Mats Wilander - Rossignol
3. Boris Becker - Puma
4. Stefan Edberg - Wilson
5. Pat Cash - Prince
6. Jimmy Connors - Slazenger
7. Miloslav Mecir - Snauwaert
8. John McEnroe - Dunlop
9. Andres Gomez - Yonex
10. Yannick Noah - Le Coq Sportif
11. Tim Mayotte - Head
12. Henri Leconte - Head
13. Kent Carlsson - Prince
14. Brad Gilbert - Fox
15. Martin Jaite - Prince
16. Joakim Nystrom - Wimbledon
17. Emilio Sanchez - Head
18. Anders Jarryd - Fischer
19. David Pate - Wilson
20. Kevin Curren - Kneissl
21. Mikael Pernfors - Snauwaert
22. Slobodan Zivojinovic - Puma
23. Scott Davis - Wilson
24. Jakob Hlasek - Kneissl
25. Aaron Krickstein - Wilson
26. Johan Kriek - Donnay
27. Jonas B. Svensson - Snauwaert
28. Jimmy Arias - Donnay
29. Tim Wilkison - Donnay
30. Paul Annacone - Prince
.Let's look at this list of seeded male players of US Open 1987 ( have female list also but not so interested in ) with racquet brands used by them at that time:
1. Ivan Lendl - Adidas
2. Mats Wilander - Rossignol
3. Boris Becker - Puma
4. Stefan Edberg - Wilson
5. Pat Cash - Prince
6. Jimmy Connors - Slazenger
7. Miloslav Mecir - Snauwaert
8. John McEnroe - Dunlop
9. Andres Gomez - Yonex
10. Yannick Noah - Le Coq Sportif
11. Tim Mayotte - Head
12. Henri Leconte - Head
13. Kent Carlsson - Prince
14. Brad Gilbert - Fox
15. Martin Jaite - Prince
16. Joakim Nystrom - Wimbledon
17. Emilio Sanchez - Head
18. Anders Jarryd - Fischer
19. David Pate - Wilson
20. Kevin Curren - Kneissl
21. Mikael Pernfors - Snauwaert
22. Slobodan Zivojinovic - Puma
23. Scott Davis - Wilson
24. Jakob Hlasek - Kneissl
25. Aaron Krickstein - Wilson
26. Johan Kriek - Donnay
27. Jonas B. Svensson - Snauwaert
28. Jimmy Arias - Donnay
29. Tim Wilkison - Donnay
30. Paul Annacone - Prince
speedysteve
Legend
Amazing variety, you forget that.I see some people like my previous post about variety of tennis racquets brands among pros in the 80's
Let's look at this list of seeded male players of US Open 1987 ( have female list also but not so interested in ) with racquet brands used by them at that time:
1. Ivan Lendl - Adidas
2. Mats Wilander - Rossignol
3. Boris Becker - Puma
4. Stefan Edberg - Wilson
5. Pat Cash - Prince
6. Jimmy Connors - Slazenger
7. Miloslav Mecir - Snauwaert
8. John McEnroe - Dunlop
9. Andres Gomez - Yonex
10. Yannick Noah - Le Coq Sportif
11. Tim Mayotte - Head
12. Henri Leconte - Head
13. Kent Carlsson - Prince
14. Brad Gilbert - Fox
15. Martin Jaite - Prince
16. Joakim Nystrom - Wimbledon
17. Emilio Sanchez - Head
18. Anders Jarryd - Fischer
19. David Pate - Wilson
20. Kevin Curren - Kneissl
21. Mikael Pernfors - Snauwaert
22. Slobodan Zivojinovic - Puma
23. Scott Davis - Wilson
24. Jakob Hlasek - Kneissl
25. Aaron Krickstein - Wilson
26. Johan Kriek - Donnay
27. Jonas B. Svensson - Snauwaert
28. Jimmy Arias - Donnay
29. Tim Wilkison - Donnay
30. Paul Annacone - Prince
Today it's very few.
Similar to where all the money has gone - to a 'few' billionaires - connection? Probably not[emoji849]
AMGF
Hall of Fame
I personally think the vast majority of players buy based on what pros are using.
Imagine for a moment Federer plays with Prince, Nadal with Volkl and Djokovic with Tecnifibre, are you guys telling me the local courts would still be filled with Wilson, Head and Babolat? I don’t believe it for a second. People in clubs and local courts buy what’s available locally. And local shops buy what top pros are using because that’s what people want.
The local shop here buys some Tecnifibre because he is en enthusiast and likes their products. When I asked if they sell he said no, no one wants that. People want lightweight frames that look like what Nadal swings.
If Prince wants to be a top brand, they need to sponsor top players that win championships. Otherwise they are stuck where they are. In the end it’s a tough game. More endorsements cost a lot though you sell a lot. Less endorsements is good for the bottom line but you don’t sell as much.
I think the only reason they have Isner is because he really loves Prince and he is really loyal to the brand AND that he doesn’t cost as much as the top players to sponsor. If he were to win a couple slams and get top dollars from one of the big 3 brands, would he moved or stay? Could Prince match the offer$? Not sure.
Imagine for a moment Federer plays with Prince, Nadal with Volkl and Djokovic with Tecnifibre, are you guys telling me the local courts would still be filled with Wilson, Head and Babolat? I don’t believe it for a second. People in clubs and local courts buy what’s available locally. And local shops buy what top pros are using because that’s what people want.
The local shop here buys some Tecnifibre because he is en enthusiast and likes their products. When I asked if they sell he said no, no one wants that. People want lightweight frames that look like what Nadal swings.
If Prince wants to be a top brand, they need to sponsor top players that win championships. Otherwise they are stuck where they are. In the end it’s a tough game. More endorsements cost a lot though you sell a lot. Less endorsements is good for the bottom line but you don’t sell as much.
I think the only reason they have Isner is because he really loves Prince and he is really loyal to the brand AND that he doesn’t cost as much as the top players to sponsor. If he were to win a couple slams and get top dollars from one of the big 3 brands, would he moved or stay? Could Prince match the offer$? Not sure.
ccmtennis
Semi-Pro
well said, I would throw Mantis into that category as well. They make some really decent sticks but have not had much distribution and marketing in the US despite being on TW for a bit. Online they seem to have a following in the UK and other parts of Europe. As a finance and business guy, I just don't understand why with such a presence in Japan would they not want to combine they offerings and market strategy to improve their appeal. Some of the current Japanese up and coming as well as former pros are using Prince, most well known is Ai Sugiyama
AJvR
Rookie
I find the new Beast series to have a nice paintjob and interesting specs, and I admire they publish the swing weight with their spec sheet.
princetennis.jp
BEAST Series - Prince プリンステニス公式サイト
princetennis.jp
PBODY99
Legend
I remember the HI-Ten to be ok if you could get the 1.40mm string for it and string it a 65 lbs +
I still have the 120 ESP Prince which I have named "Market Garden" as it went a little too far.
Yes, there was huge variety in brands and the variety of tennis styles and players. That's why i love this period of tennis. That's why i became interested in tennis racquets. And still interested. And tennis shoes and sportswear also.
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max
Legend
One factor here is that a good size of the market for new racquets is new players. Most new players buy a cheapo from the department store; those who do not, for instance, high school players, will go with what's considered cool. The athletic endorsement counts for a lot.
Every year there is a contingent of high school age kids who want to do tennis seriously. Racquets can last a long time; all of us here are unlikely to buy a different racquet each year.
Players who have been playing for a few years are less susceptible to marketing hype; they look more for performance and more individualized specs. Harder to just toss one model out there for this crowd.
Every year there is a contingent of high school age kids who want to do tennis seriously. Racquets can last a long time; all of us here are unlikely to buy a different racquet each year.
Players who have been playing for a few years are less susceptible to marketing hype; they look more for performance and more individualized specs. Harder to just toss one model out there for this crowd.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Weedwacker string
asifallasleep
Hall of Fame
Sometimes just like music, the best isn't always a top seller. The 93P IMO was a wonderfully crafted beautiful racquet.
If I was running Prince P.R. and advertising, I'd be pushing for a biopic script on one Howard Head, maybe even get Head Sporting Goods on board with it.
Howard Head was an insanely brilliant engineer and entrepreneur and at least as interesting as Steve Jobs whose life spawned two major films that I'm aware of. I mean, who even remembers that Head started out as a ski company in 1950 and one that revolutionized the sport with skis incorporating aluminum, polyethylene and steel edges. Only after turning the ski industry on its ear did the company start manufacturing racquet sports. Their biggest innovation in this area was the Arthur Ashe frame which was the first frame constructed of Aluminum honeycomb.
So then after a 19 year epic run with Head, Howard cashes in, retires at 55 and starts concentrating on his tennis game taking lessons and in the process buys a Prince ball machine. But this guy's a nerd not an athlete and he's not improving. So what does he do? He buys up all the Prince stock he can get his hands on (got to assume that the company was struggling more than even now) and becomes the Chairman of the Board. He starts by improving the design of the Ball Machine but his game still doesn't improve. You can guess the next move - he comes up with the design for the oversize racket, taking out a patent on head sizes from 95 to 135 square inches. Guy had a "head" for business as his was the first patent, although Bentley Fortissimo preceded him with the innovation by two years and the Weed oversize was introduced in 75 before the Prince version. But Prince was the successful version. Even more importantly than the head size innovation was the fact that Prince under the direction of H.H. pioneered the development of the graphite racquet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Head
Throw in a few flourishes here and there (love interest) and it makes a cool story don't you think?
Howard Head was an insanely brilliant engineer and entrepreneur and at least as interesting as Steve Jobs whose life spawned two major films that I'm aware of. I mean, who even remembers that Head started out as a ski company in 1950 and one that revolutionized the sport with skis incorporating aluminum, polyethylene and steel edges. Only after turning the ski industry on its ear did the company start manufacturing racquet sports. Their biggest innovation in this area was the Arthur Ashe frame which was the first frame constructed of Aluminum honeycomb.
So then after a 19 year epic run with Head, Howard cashes in, retires at 55 and starts concentrating on his tennis game taking lessons and in the process buys a Prince ball machine. But this guy's a nerd not an athlete and he's not improving. So what does he do? He buys up all the Prince stock he can get his hands on (got to assume that the company was struggling more than even now) and becomes the Chairman of the Board. He starts by improving the design of the Ball Machine but his game still doesn't improve. You can guess the next move - he comes up with the design for the oversize racket, taking out a patent on head sizes from 95 to 135 square inches. Guy had a "head" for business as his was the first patent, although Bentley Fortissimo preceded him with the innovation by two years and the Weed oversize was introduced in 75 before the Prince version. But Prince was the successful version. Even more importantly than the head size innovation was the fact that Prince under the direction of H.H. pioneered the development of the graphite racquet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Head
Throw in a few flourishes here and there (love interest) and it makes a cool story don't you think?
markwillplay
Hall of Fame
uuhhmmm..not so...Agassi switched away from prince for the MONEY.. Read his book. He was after head and /donnay to make him a copy of his prince sticks.
don't fall for the hype or marketing. buy what fits your like and play style. I tried a lot of different racquets and fell in love with what prince had to offer. maybe not many pros play with them but are they really hitting the racquet off the shelf anyway? more than likely it's a paint job with custom specs. play what you like but will stand by that prince emakes a great racquet
ccmtennis
Semi-Pro
I find the new Beast series to have a nice paintjob and interesting specs, and I admire they publish the swing weight with their spec sheet.
BEAST Series - Prince プリンステニス公式サイト
Yup agreed... however one would hope that for equivalent 347 USD it would be as detailed as possible lol.
Sad that we have gotten a release date for the Beast line here in the US unless I have missed it. I did ask Prince tennis official but he never responded
BDAZ
Hall of Fame
Yeah. Imagine if Andre stayed with Prince his entire career...
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
There may be a Super Graphite in his hands,
mnttlrg
Professional
OP: The downfall of Prince was sticking with the flexy hoops of the 1980's, while everyone else played to the crowd's fascination of more "power" and spin. They tried to justify it as the arm-friendly option, but even people with arm problems don't like hitting with weak rackets.
Plus, a lot of people get arm problems from using too low of a flex.
They fell behind the times, and didn't want to adapt.
Plus, a lot of people get arm problems from using too low of a flex.
They fell behind the times, and didn't want to adapt.
Yes. In fact, I believe that the o-ports would have completely taken off it more players had given them I chance. I, for one, was initially very skeptical of the design and doubt I was alone.
Hope Prince brings back the old Price O3 Tour 18/20. (FWIW, I hit w the new O3 Tour, which is available in Europe, but it didn’t have the same sublime feel — but pretty good nevertheless)
Exactly. Now it's a common deal.
thelimfactor
Rookie
Thank y'all for the educated responses- great discussion. A couple of points: 1) As others have mentioned Prince's marketing appealed to maybe only a very select few eg. Last year they were trying to hype up something "new" and what i saw was big fitting tracksuits with the "P" randomly plastered on the front of their tracksuits, 80's style. I like that era, and really really wanted to like their offerings, but i couldnt imagine youngsters, or even oldies like me flocking to it. 2) I will disclose that i am bias now that I am using Babs, but i agree with the posters who said what Babs have done great is having the 3 lines, and different specs within each line, so that its easy for the everyday local player to see "Hey thats Mugaruza using a Pure Drive, just like me, even tho im using the Pure drive Light" it makes the pros easily relatable to us. I know personally i am keener to watch a player using the same line of rackets as me, compared to some1 who is not. Call it good subconscious marketing or whatever marketing jargon, but they got me good -hook line and sinker!
thelimfactor
Rookie
I see some people like my previous post about variety of tennis racquets brands among pros in the 80's
Let's look at this list of seeded male players of US Open 1987 ( have female list also but not so interested in ) with racquet brands used by them at that time:
1. Ivan Lendl - Adidas
2. Mats Wilander - Rossignol
3. Boris Becker - Puma
4. Stefan Edberg - Wilson
5. Pat Cash - Prince
6. Jimmy Connors - Slazenger
7. Miloslav Mecir - Snauwaert
8. John McEnroe - Dunlop
9. Andres Gomez - Yonex
10. Yannick Noah - Le Coq Sportif
11. Tim Mayotte - Head
12. Henri Leconte - Head
13. Kent Carlsson - Prince
14. Brad Gilbert - Fox
15. Martin Jaite - Prince
16. Joakim Nystrom - Wimbledon
17. Emilio Sanchez - Head
18. Anders Jarryd - Fischer
19. David Pate - Wilson
20. Kevin Curren - Kneissl
21. Mikael Pernfors - Snauwaert
22. Slobodan Zivojinovic - Puma
23. Scott Davis - Wilson
24. Jakob Hlasek - Kneissl
25. Aaron Krickstein - Wilson
26. Johan Kriek - Donnay
27. Jonas B. Svensson - Snauwaert
28. Jimmy Arias - Donnay
29. Tim Wilkison - Donnay
30. Paul Annacone - Prince
What a great list! Wonder what the list for this years Oz open would look like in terms of the seeds and rackets they use!? Much less spread of rackets i suspect.
thelimfactor
Rookie
How times have moved on....
Nostaglic reminiscing warning
Mate i remember in the Prince heydays, sometime in the 1980's my school had a Prince event, featuring Mark Kratzmann and some other coaches. I recall it like it was yesterday, and have such fond memories. It may have only been 30 mins or so during 1 school lunchtine, but i loved being there. We demoed a range of Prince rackets, and had 1 rally with Mark. I felt privileged to be there, as I was using a beat up aluminium Spalding racket at the time, and the Prince's were aspirational for many young kids at the time. All the kids there 'won' something. I remember winning a pack of string savers (remember them!?!) and treasured these like gold for many years after. It was so precious to me. Even kept the box in a plastic bag to protect it! May not seem like much of a gift for adults, but at the time it made this kid unbelievably and extremely happy. Made me fall in love with tennis even more. For me at the time it cemented Prince as a leading brand at the time. End of nostalgic reminiscing
TennisHound
Legend
10 pager easy
jbdbackfan
Semi-Pro
You could demo here...
jbdbackfan
Semi-Pro
If you can't name one then probably a factor of either not frequently looking at all brand's offerings, or you simply may have an unconscious bias to the brand that forces you to not look at them.
