Discuss -What would it take for Fed or Nadal to be considered top contender for GOAT?

[kraggy]

This thread is not meant to do a scientific analysis but rather to see what people's opinions are on the matter. Of course there is no right answer and there probably never will be someone unanimously called the GOAT. But people will always have their personal picks for GOAT.

In my opinion,

For Federer to be GOAT

Scenario A : 15 or more slams including at least 1 FO

Scenario B: 16 or more slams without FO

For Nadal to be GOAT

Scenario A : 13 or more slams including at least 1 USO

Scenario B : 12 or more slams including calendar GS and atleast 6 non FO Grand slams

The reason I am a little easier on Nadal is because Nadal is making his achievements in the Federer era. Neither Sampras nor Laver had another GOAT contender in the same era. Now you could also say that I should be easier on Fed because Fed is competing in the Nadal era. While that is true, I think that the Nadal effect is canceled by the fact that from 2003-2006 Fed had a relatively easy time because there really was no one who could hold a candle to him (of course there were talents like Safin but no one who was consistently a threat). Fed was so far ahead of his main rivals like Roddick/hewitt etc that it wasn't even funny.

Of course it's also possible that first Fed becomes the GOAT ( by 2010 end or so) and then Nadal becomes the GOAT ( by 2013 or so)

Thoughts?

 

[Andyk028]

a career slam..obviously fed has been a hairline away but nadal shows the more hardcourt experience he can get..the more possible that could be.

 

[miyagi]

I think Nadal is quite far away from it when you think about it he only has 6 GS so far which is less than half of Fed and Sampras....
However Nadal does seems the more likely to win every slam as Fed seem incapable of winning FO...

I would say for me Federer needs two more slams I do think for the most part this era (pre Nadal) was way easier than Sampras era....

I would accept Nadal winning around 14 slams one of which should include a USO and I would call him the GOAT.....especially as he has managed to spank Roger so frequently and on all surfaces....

 

[gj011]

Nobody can be the GOAT without calendar slam.

Laver is still the GOAT and will stay until someone wins calendar slam + sufficent number of overall slam titles.

 

[ksbh]

If Federer can reverse his losing trend against Nadal, that's good enough to establish him as the GOAT.

With some of the incredible records that he's set, I'm no longer sure he needs a calendar slam to stake the GOAT claim. What is it, 19 straight slam semis? I think at one point, he had about 10 straight major finals. By the time he hangs up his boots, I expect that he'll have gotten to at least 25 slam finals!

 

[oneleggedcardinal]

When the GOAT arrives, you will know him...hallelujah.

 

[saram]

When the GOAT arrives, you will know him...hallelujah.

Classic!

 

[Dilettante]

Nobody can be the GOAT without calendar slam.

Laver is still the GOAT and will stay until someone wins calendar slam + sufficent number of overall slam titles.

Did Laver win slams on HC at the time?

 

[_maxi]

Scenario 1 -> another dumbass thread

 

[Serve_Ace]

True, these topics are pointless

 

[GameSampras]

Federer would have to turn his fortunes around and begin to beat Nadal. So far no luck. Things just keeping getting worse in the h2h. To be a GOAT you need to defeat your rival. BOTTOM LINE. Or he has to pick up an RG.

As for Nadal. Just continue what he is doing. Continue to improve his all around game and pick up slams. Incorporate a better 1st and 2nd serve would help his longevity along with being smarter scheduling tournaments and win the USO

 

[Mick]

to be considered as top contender for GOAT:

federer has to beat nadal
and nadal has to beat everybody else

consistently for about 3 or 4 years

 

[kraggy]

Scenario 1 -> another dumbass thread

^
^
Scenario 2 - Another worthless poster.

 

[JankovicFan]

They would have to be retired and then have a static record.

 

[CyBorg]

Roger needs two more very good years to have a career that has comparable accomplishments to Laver's.

A very good year is one where a player wins in the neighbourhood of 7-8 titles with two majors or say a major and a masters cup. Something like this.

In other words, Roger needs staying power, which means consistent excellence.

 

[gj011]

Did Laver win slams on HC at the time?

Laver won slams on all surfaces available at his time. You can't ask for more than that.

I have no doubt that he would have won on HC if there was a HC GS tournament then. So that argument against Laver is false.

 

[Andyk028]

Laver won slams on all surfaces available at his time. You can't ask for more than that.

I have no doubt that he would have won on HC if there was a HC GS tournament then. So that argument against Laver is false.

it definetly isnt laver..no matter how much you try to argue that he is...he's not.

 

[RoddickAce]

When they beat every player (in their prime) in history in a H2H record. Unless that is achieved, there will be no possible way to conclude who the "greatest of all time".

 

[gj011]

it definetly isnt laver..no matter how much you try to argue that he is...he's not.

It would be nice if you can give some arguments for such claim, not just a blanket statement.

 

[thalivest]

Had there been Open tennis then Laver would have still won 2 calender slams but they would have been 1967 and 1969 instead of 1962 and 1969. A player would need to win 2 calender slams and over 15 slam titles to be competitive with Laver. I think Nadal in the future has a chance to do this but all the pieces would have to fall into the right places. Roger never will.

 

[tennis-hero]

For Federer it is so simple its not even funny

de-throne Rafa on the dirt in Paris

he takes the slam on dirt (which Pete couldn't do)

he completes the career slam

and he gets to 14... making him joint slam record holder whilst being ahead of Pete by virtue of the clay slam

it is SO simple for Roger, he needs to be brave

For Rafa its simple aswell

09 calender grand slam
10 calender grand slam
11 calender grand slam

undisputed GOAT

easy no? :roll:

but seriously, for Rafa all he really needs to do is to not be in a wheel chair before 30 and keep winning the clay slams, and he'll be in GOAT discussions as soon as he passes Borg

 

[pepe01]

They are top contenders already !!!!1

 

[Andyk028]

It would be nice if you can give some arguments for such claim, not just a blanket statement.

Hard Courts have totally changed tennis.

That is my arguement.

It's the most popular surface on the tour and it would be irrelevant to throw a player who never won a grand slam on it as a GOAT candidate.

 

[veroniquem]

Did Laver win slams on HC at the time?

No he didn't. If Nadal won the calendar slam now, he would be the first one.

 

[pennc94]

This is an interesting issue.

Some here arguing Laver slam not on all surfaces somehow de-values the slam. How disparate were the surfaces Laver played on when we won the slam? Even though we have 3 surfaces today (hard, clay, grass), have the changes in the surfaces made the surfaces more/less alike? Some say the surfaces today are more similar than before. So would a current calendar year slam be just like Laver's slam (even if now is is no 3 surfaces)?

 

[veroniquem]

This is an interesting issue.

Some here arguing Laver slam not on all surfaces somehow de-values the slam. How disparate were the surfaces Laver played on when we won the slam? Even though we have 3 surfaces today (hard, clay, grass), have the changes in the surfaces made the surfaces more/less alike? Some say the surfaces today are more similar than before. So would a current calendar year slam be just like Laver's slam (even if now is is no 3 surfaces)?

Surfaces are not the only issues, there are lots of others like competitiveness and the tour format, playing against amateurs or professionals, etc.

 

[<3tennis!!!]

i think what everyone is forgetting is the issue of GOAT is very subjective. everyone will have their different views on who will be the GOAT and there is no record or anything where it says the GOAT is............whoever...i mean even if federer beats nadal at RG there will still be arguments that fed didnt have a superior h2h vs nadal and that will spark a whole new debate.

my 2c

 

[pennc94]

Surfaces are not the only issues, there are lots of others like competitiveness and the tour format, playing against amateurs or professionals, etc.

Good points.

All these show how you cannot necessarily compare a Slam today versus one from years ago. One today is not necessarily better/worse than one in 1969.

 

[ormynameisntbill]

there never will be a true "goat"

unless tennis suddenly dies and the last "great one" (ie a fedal-possibly dimitrov like player) would be considered

 

[GameSampras]

Laver didnt even get to play the pro tour for 6 years I believe and he had 11 slams. Had he gotten to, he would have gotten so many slams, doubtful the record ever would have been broken not to mention his 2 calendar slams. Pete never would have touched the GS record. Nor could Roger or Rafa.

Even Sampras said at the very LEAST Laver would have gotten 20 slams without a doubt. So combine the 20 some slams with his 2 calendar year slams, Laver would have far and away reigned supreme. He still does by most people's accounts

 

[ormynameisntbill]

but you must remember.....

laver played in a time when 3 out of the 4 slams were played on grass

 

[ormynameisntbill]

and lol wow...this would mean fed would have (before the nadal revolution) 15 slams plus the hardcourt slams by the ripe age of 26

 

[The-Champ]

This 'H2H against your main' rival is something Sampras' fans came up with. They know Federer has a losing record against his rival (Nadal) so they have to discredit Federers achievements (slam count) which will without a doubt surpass that of Sampras'.

When federer wins his 15th slam..then he is greater than Sampras!


What Rafa needs to be in the same category as Sampras and Federer?

1. Without the USO, Rafa needs to match their slam count

2. with USO...Rafa will need 11-12 slams

3. If Rafa wins ALL 4 this year, he can retire next year as GOAT contender.


People who used toothpicks as rackets should be in a completely different GOAT category e.g Borg, Laver, Pancho etc.

 

[ormynameisntbill]

pancho gonzo was a friggin monster
i would say he is goat if it came down to it but i agree with the champs post in saying they should be in a different category.

 

[luckyboy1300]

Nobody can be the GOAT without calendar slam.

Laver is still the GOAT and will stay until someone wins calendar slam + sufficent number of overall slam titles.

laver said it himself. it's unfair to demand roger to win a calendar year grand slam "now" because of the depth of the field, and the sheer difficulty of winning slams nowadays. plus federer's 10 major finals streak, winning 8 of them, already eclipses most of laver's achievements. winning the french open will do, according to him.

 

[GameSampras]

There will always be debates unless someone totally obliterates most of the records set and destroys everyone in his path. Roger hasnt obliterated every record. Roger has destroyed just about everyone besides his rival. And his h2h against his rival is a blemish whether people believe that or not. IT definiely hurts his resume as it does not winning the French. The same as it did for Sampras. Also the fact Roger has lost to Nadal on 3 of the 4 surfaces now.

You cant crown someone the undisputed GOAT if they cant defeat their main competitor. Sure you could argue that before that Fed lost most of his matches to Nadal on clay. Well now its different hes lost to Nadal on every surface at the slams outside the USO

 

[miyagi]

This 'H2H against your main' rival is something Sampras' fans came up with. They know Federer has a losing record against his rival (Nadal) so they have to discredit Federers achievements (slam count) which will without a doubt surpass that of Sampras'.

When federer wins his 15th slam..then he is greater than Sampras!


What Rafa needs to be in the same category as Sampras and Federer?

1. Without the USO, Rafa needs to match their slam count

2. with USO...Rafa will need 11-12 slams

3. If Rafa wins ALL 4 this year, he can retire next year as GOAT contender.


People who used toothpicks as rackets should be in a completely different GOAT category e.g Borg, Laver, Pancho etc.

I dont think so at all....I think Federer didnt have as much competition to contend with as Sampras and therefore for Fed to have a lopsided H2H when his field was weaker seems to be a blemish to me.....

I mean who has consistantly challenged Fed?

Plus I'm not convinced Fed will surpass Sampras yet, this year will be the key if the AO defeat has affected him and he cant find that olympic doubles type inspiration we could be looking at a poor year for Fed.

 

[gj011]

laver said it himself. it's unfair to demand roger to win a calendar year grand slam "now" because of the depth of the field, and the sheer difficulty of winning slams nowadays. plus federer's 10 major finals streak, winning 8 of them, already eclipses most of laver's achievements. winning the french open will do, according to him.

Laver would of course not say "I am the only real and undisputed GOAT". He has too much class for that.

Do you people know what GOAT stands for? "Greatest of ALL times". So it means ALL times, not only times when there were hardcourt slams, or when according to you field was deeper, or because tennis is different now than it was then.

ALL times is ALL times and Laver is the GOAT, like it or not.

 

[sp00q]

Federer: win RG.
Nadal: win the calendar slam.

 

[sp00q]

it definetly isnt laver..no matter how much you try to argue that he is...he's not.

Laver is the only person to ever win the Grand Slam twice! He also won a Pro Grand Slam in 1967 for a total of three Grand Slams in his career. It can be argued that Laver won five straight Wimbledons if you count the Wimbledon World Pro.

It is assumed that Laver was at his peak in 1969 when he won the first Open Grand Slam but Laver was 31 years old and already on the decline. He just was so great that even after the decline he was still by far the best in the world. The competiton was also very high in his time, if the names Rosewall and Emerson mean something to you...

 

[ksbh]

T-C ... why does Federer need to win 15 slams to be greater than Sampras?

Federer has set records that Sampras did not even come close to sniffing! In my opinion, Federer is already a greater player than Sampras. He doesn't need to win another slam!

This 'H2H against your main' rival is something Sampras' fans came up with. They know Federer has a losing record against his rival (Nadal) so they have to discredit Federers achievements (slam count) which will without a doubt surpass that of Sampras'.

When federer wins his 15th slam..then he is greater than Sampras!

What Rafa needs to be in the same category as Sampras and Federer?

1. Without the USO, Rafa needs to match their slam count

2. with USO...Rafa will need 11-12 slams

3. If Rafa wins ALL 4 this year, he can retire next year as GOAT contender.


People who used toothpicks as rackets should be in a completely different GOAT category e.g Borg, Laver, Pancho etc.

 

[The-Champ]

T-C ... why does Federer need to win 15 slams to be greater than Sampras?

Federer has set records that Sampras did not even come close to sniffing! In my opinion, Federer is already a greater player than Sampras. He doesn't need to win another slam!

Because neither of them has won on all 4, so to actually separate them, Fed should at least tie him in total slam count.


But you are right, Federer is already greater than Sampras!