Djokodal since ‘09 Madrid

TheFifthSet

Legend
Since that ripper of a match in Madrid where Nadal fended off multiple match points, Djovak is 25-12, 18-4 on non-clay and a respectable 7-8 on the dirt. Inspiring turnaround if there ever was one from a guy that was 4-14 against Nadal at one point and his pigeon in majors. The fact that Nadal has only beaten Djokovic on the two surfaces that comprise 65-70% of the tours events and 71% of ‘Tier 1‘ tournies four times in 11 years is pretty astonishing.
 
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The nonsense that he’s supposedly bringing is all in your head. No one would call Djokovic in those years a weak player, and nobody in this thread has.
If you ask this guy what is an example of a bad performance in a slam final he will bring USO 2013 as his first example. Like most Federer fans do. Somehow Djokovic gets more credit for RG 2015 1/4 final than Nadal gets for his 2012-2013 wins over PRIME Djokovic.
 
none of any of that in this thread so no, no double standards. You just have massive baggage. I’m a Djokerer fan and I freely admit Djokovic got his ass kicked in the Rome final, and the only reason it wasn’t even more one-sided was due to Nadal’s mental demons against Djokovic which can manifest themselves at inopportune times.
Well, at least you admit that Nadal has mental problems against Djokovic.
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
Well, at least you admit that Nadal has mental problems against Djokovic.
Absolutely, as did Djokovic against Nadal for much of their rivalry pre-2011, as did Fed for large chunks of their rivalry before 2017 really. A sturdy mental game is a hallmark of a great champion in a sport where a players physical abilities can lead them to a position where their standardized odds of winning are <99% (see: 40-15) when right at the finish line and still lose.
 
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TheFifthSet

Legend
95% chance Strongule is Djokovic fan imo.
I’ve considered that, but oftentimes when people are spreading misinformation I just defer to Poe’s Law and try to refute it anyway. I’ve lost countless hours of my youth doing this, but whatever, leave it to a hair-splitter like me to do a thankless job. I feel like Hitman does the same thing (although with him it’s more out of a desire to be charitable about a persons intentions, whereas I’m just a pedantic POS.)We know what’s going on, we’re not naive but we still can’t help it. :D
 
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mike danny

Bionic Poster
So you AGAIN bring that nonsense about Djokovic being a weak player in 2012-2014 when he was winning 6-7 titles (including a slam WTF and a few masters) every year? But Nadal never declined since AO 2014, it is still prime Nadal in your opinion? 2013 Nadal would have beaten Djokovic at least a few more times after that. Unfortunately, he was never the same player since AO 2014. He declined much more than Djokovic improved.
The thing is, Nadal defeated Djokovic mainly at RG, where he never had to figure him out as no one is a match for him there.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
He was quite successful then until bad form and injury struggles in 2015-2016. Nadal has had to play differently since to succeed against the field again. But since his new game isn't 'natural' for him, when pitted against the very best, he tends to fall back to his old style which doesn't work for a 33 year old Nadal.
True, but I was referring more to the fact that Nadal in 2012-2014 mainly defeated Djokovic at RG, where no one is a match for him anyway. There was no figuring Djokovuc out at RG as there was no need to.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
I wonder why winning in RG doesn't count according to Federer fans. They used to say nobody is also a match for Federer in Wimbledon, yet we have the 0-3 in Wimbledon finals.
The last argument is so poor that it's not even worth debunking it.

As for the first part, I never said it doesn't count. Djokovic was regularly beating Nadal in the slams off clay, not at RG, so Nadal didn't have to figure him out there.
 
The last argument is so poor that it's not even worth debunking it.

As for the first part, I never said it doesn't count. Djokovic was regularly beating Nadal in the slams off clay, not at RG, so Nadal didn't have to figure him out there.
I think he did have. He had to overcome that mental block which was in RG as well. He lost 8 straight games in RG 2012 final, totally choked in the fourth set of RG 2013. (which should have been a 4 set win). There were many problems.
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
I think he did have. He had to overcome that mental block which was in RG as well. He lost 8 straight games in RG 2012 final, totally choked in the fourth set of RG 2013. (which should have been a 4 set win). There were many problems.
Nadal’s base level on clay is just so much higher than Djokovic’s though. He was better against the field all three years, even 2014 (though it was marginal then.) Even when Djokovic is in his head, his inherent superiority on clay over BO5 tends to override it.
 
Djokovic has owned Nadal off clay big time, 15-2 since 2011, which dullbots conveniently ignore when fawning over Nadal's 21-4 over Fred off grass and indoor HC before he got too old or something. (Which does look awful, but shearing off clay monstrosities and fedmugzeit Nadal really cost Fred 2 slems and 1 500 and maybe 1 masters off clay, not too bad.)
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
Djokovic has owned Nadal off clay big time, 15-2 since 2011, which dullbots conveniently ignore when fawning over Nadal's 21-4 over Fred off grass and indoor HC before he got too old or something. (Which does look awful, but shearing off clay monstrosities and fedmugzeit Nadal really cost Fred 2 slems and 1 500 and maybe 1 masters off clay, not too bad.)
I’ll be honest, as cherry-picked as it was (removing grass AND indoor HC? Cmon now) that 21-4 figure made me do a concerned double-take the first time I heard it in 2014 LOL. But yeah, the 13-2 on clay doing most of the damage made it a little more palatable.

I sound like a bitter Fednut but it never sat well with me how freaking often he underachieved against Ned on outdoor HC. From losing when he probably shouldn’t have even played the event in ‘04 Miami, to SOMEHOW losing when he had 1.25 DR in Dubai ‘06 (almost unheard of to have that high of a DR and still lose), to having like his 357th worst serving day out of 372 GS matches in terms of first serve percentage (I can’t remember exactly, but it was something like that) in the ‘09 AO final, to losing a set and break lead in the ‘12 AO semi and utterly bottling it on his last return game, to being visibly injured in their ‘13 IW match, to the subsequent injury/new frame-related losses that followed shortly thereafter...I always felt like his poor luck in that set of conditions (as well as some mental muggery) made for a poor representation of his ability, even within the confines of the unfavourable match-up. Nadal suffered some misfortune too (the line call in ‘05 Miami) and naturally deserves all the credit for gutting out all those wins but at the risk of channeling my inner KINGROGER I really do think it’s more than just sour grapes telling me Fed shoulda really done better, and likely does better in 99 out of 100 simulations. Does my heart good to see that he righted the ship a little from 2017-present.
 
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I’ll be honest, as cherry-picked as it was (removing grass AND indoor HC? Cmon now) that 21-4 figure made me do a concerned double-take the first time I heard it in 2014 LOL. But yeah, the 13-2 on clay doing most of the damage made it a little more palatable.

I sound like a bitter Fednut but it never sat well with me how freaking often he underachieved against Ned on outdoor HC. From losing when he probably shouldn’t have even played the event in ‘04 Miami, to SOMEHOW losing when he had 1.25 DR in Dubai ‘06 (almost unheard of to have that high of a DR and still lose), to having like his 357th worst serving day out of 372 GS matches in terms of first serve percentage (I can’t remember exactly, but it was something like that) in the ‘09 AO final, to losing a set and break lead in the ‘12 AO semi and utterly bottling it on his last return game, to being visibly injured in their ‘13 IW match, to the subsequent injury/new frame-related losses that followed shortly thereafter...I always felt like his poor luck in that set of conditions (as well as some mental muggery) made for a poor representation of his ability, even within the confines of the unfavourable match-up. Nadal suffered some misfortune too (the line call in ‘05 Miami) and naturally deserves all the credit for gutting out all those wins but at the risk of channeling my inner KINGROGER I really do think it’s more than just sour grapes telling me Fed shoulda really done better, and likely does better in 99 out of 100 simulations. Does my heart good to see that he righted the ship a little from 2017-present.
Fred had DR>1 in all three off-clay prime-level losses to Thenadal lulz, slightly over 1 in Wim and AO too. Mental muggery is Fed's ultimate bane isn't it, the number of losses he suffered from winning positions and/or with favourable stats is enormous; Nadal and Djokovic are obviously the foremost recipients as his best rivals most capable of exposing and punishing doubt, but he's got plenty of likewise losses against others as well. Federer has done the most injustice to himself by himself, despite whatever setbacks he's created so many chances he should've won more, perhaps considerably more. If only he had Sampras's mental makeup/confidence, we could be seeing something like 25+ slams, 8+ YEC, 400+ #1 weeks etc. that would shush the debate altogether, only downside is less excitement but also less strife.
 

NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
I wonder why winning in RG doesn't count according to Federer fans. They used to say nobody is also a match for Federer in Wimbledon, yet we have the 0-3 in Wimbledon finals.
It does count. We all know Nadal is an infinitely better clay player than Djokovic and Federer, and beat them like a drum there going 12-1. However, there are 4 Slams not 1. If anyone can beat two guys like a drum at all 4 Slams when both have 15+ Slams then he is the supreme tennis player, most likely the undisputed GOAT and no one should argue otherwise. But when he dominated one of them mainly at one Slam but his fans keep repeating 9-6, it can become annoying and tiresome after a while especially when trying to prop up an advantage gained from being so dominant at 1/4 Slams.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
I think he did have. He had to overcome that mental block which was in RG as well. He lost 8 straight games in RG 2012 final, totally choked in the fourth set of RG 2013. (which should have been a 4 set win). There were many problems.
He had a bit of a mental block, true, but Nadal was still in control of those matches. He didn't have to come back from a significant deficit like 2 sets to love or 2 sets to 1.
 

Krish0608

Hall of Fame
If you ask this guy what is an example of a bad performance in a slam final he will bring USO 2013 as his first example. Like most Federer fans do. Somehow Djokovic gets more credit for RG 2015 1/4 final than Nadal gets for his 2012-2013 wins over PRIME Djokovic.
Any sensible fan of any base will give Rafa massive credit for taking it to Djokovic in 2013 esp after the getting butchered across surfaces in 2011. His RG 2013, Montreal and USO 13 trifecta is one of the crowning moments of Rafa's overall career. But what happened after that is just inexplicable domination. You can not be at your best. But being so utterly dominated that you lose 19 sets in a row over a 7 year period is just embarrassing.
 

xFedal

Legend
Djokovic has owned Nadal off clay big time, 15-2 since 2011, which dullbots conveniently ignore when fawning over Nadal's 21-4 over Fred off grass and indoor HC before he got too old or something. (Which does look awful, but shearing off clay monstrosities and fedmugzeit Nadal really cost Fred 2 slems and 1 500 and maybe 1 masters off clay, not too bad.)
This 15-2 and other h2h vs djokovic is going to hurt Nadal so badly when the GOAT debate starts next year..... IMO Fed has slams over nole but Nole has h2h over both and is in the process of eliminating their only advantage 3/4 extra slams.... once thats complete they lose h2h claim and having more slams claim....
 
Nadal never moved the same after Madrid 09. Even though he got better results arguably in 2010 and 2013, as per the eye test he never reached the same peak level again that he did from spring 08 - madrid 09. He got better against the field but worse against the very best from 2010 on. And then post AO14 was another huge level drop.
 
Nadal never moved the same after Madrid 09. Even though he got better results arguably in 2010 and 2013, as per the eye test he never reached the same peak level again that he did from spring 08 - madrid 09. He got better against the field but worse against the very best from 2010 on. And then post AO14 was another huge level drop.
From 2011 on though. In 2010 Nadal wasn't so consistent (zero HC masters finals) overall but won 3 straight slams + clay sweep + YEC final (best result). It's telling that Nadal's peaks by tournament occurred almost entirely in 2007-10, only 2012 red clay season and 2013 Canada-Cincy were equal or better.
 

swordtennis

Legend
Sigh. "Peak" Nadal of 2008 would be getting blasted out on hard courts. Is this revisionism or something? He had to change his game and tactics. He is far greater on hard courts post 2009. Nadal and reality back this up. Sigh. Sigh. Sigh.
 

Hitman

Hall of Fame
Check this out...

Nadal's incredible 2010 run included

Monte Carlo 2010
Rome 2010
Madrid 2010
Roland Garros 2010
Wimbledon 2010
US Open 2010

Do you know who ended his run at every single one of those big events?
 

NEW_BORN

Hall of Fame
Actually it's not that astonishing when you consider the fact that, apart from his patented DjokoSmash, Djokovic trumps Nadal in virtually every stroke of the game.
If anything, the H2H should be far more lopsided in Djokovic's favour, even on Nadal's beloved clay.
 

NEW_BORN

Hall of Fame
Surely not forehands and volleys? Nadal is a lot better at those, in my opinion.
From what i've seen, Djokovic's volleys have improved tremendously, whereas Nadal's are vastly overrated, because most of his volleys are put-away volleys where the ball is above the net. As for the forehand, generally speaking Nadal's is more effective, but when these 2 meet, it's Djokovic's forehand that's doing most of the damage.
 
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