Djokovic: I want to be in front of Nadal and Federer...
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Hitman
Bionic Poster
Djokovic is often brutally honest and that gets held against him, because then he is considered arrogant or cocky. Say anything different, then he will be called out for being a liar and dishonest person.
Villain
Professional
Hitman
Bionic Poster
All aboard the TT merry-go-round:
Oh my God....
Villain
Professional
I’m not 100% sure, but I think she’s riding that wrong...
Tennis_Freak99
Legend
Bump
KHAN SINGH
New User
Pete retired after Federer won his first Wimbledon.
Djokodalerer31
Hall of Fame
Mmm...let's see...Us Open final 2002 vs. Wimbledon Final 2003...i wonder which one happened later...
itrium84
Hall of Fame
Hi, do you have any comment on Pete Sampras claim that Novak Djokovic is GOAT?
Noleberic123
G.O.A.T.
Lmao
Tshooter
G.O.A.T.
While he announced his formal retirement at the 2003 USO, Pete played his last pro match at the USO 2002 final. FEDR won his first W title in 2003.
KHAN SINGH
New User
Yes, so when we announce retirement is when we actually retire. Even Federer is still not retired, he will retire much later. You cannot say that Federer retired before Medvedev won his first slam.
Djokodalerer31
Hall of Fame
You can't really chase seomeone anymore, when that person is not actively playing anymore...can you?...
KHAN SINGH
New User
So assuming Roger is not making a comeback, Medvedev won his first slam after Roger retired?
Lol
Do you see the fallacy in that argument? Pete was in double minds on whether he should play in 2003 or not, he was thinking of 1 last Wimbledon but he finally skipped that and announced his retirement after Roger won his 1st Slam..
So it is not to say that Roger won his 1st slam before Pete retired just like Medvedev has won his first slam before Roger retired even if Roger is to never play another grand Slam match ever again.
Tshooter
G.O.A.T.
So if you never formally announce your retirement then you never retire? I'm going with substance over form. You retired when you played your last pro match.
You’re only seeing that because that’s what you do. The simple and obvious explanation is that it’s an obvious story to write and tennis journalists always keep writing the same obvious stories over and over.
Yes. Sampras is very jealous of Federer. Nuff said, no?
itrium84
Hall of Fame
That's all you have to say on Pete Sampras claim that Novak Djokovic is GOAT?
Pete is jealous?
KHAN SINGH
New User
In this scenario Pete was billed to play 1 last wimbledon until he pulled out close to it and after that announced that it is all over. He might even have been training for Wimbledon in 03 and then unplugged the plan later on, so this is not a case of never announcing retirement, it is just the same as Federer training today to make a comeback in 2022 and probably next year at the wimbledon saying that ok he is done as his body isn't as good as it should be.
Now what if Nadal announces retirement tomorrow? Will we say Med won his slam after Fedal retired? When an athlete is hopeful to make a comeback on some months then he is not retired....
KHAN SINGH
New User
Pete like many of us got into a false belief that Federer was his successor and GOAT when records started to look breakable in 07 and in 09 finally broke.
But now he seems to realized that the actual successor and GOAT to Pete's legacy by holding all the 3 significant records that he held once is Novak
01. Record for most Slams
02. Record for most weeks at 1
03. Record for most year end 1s
Pete held all 3 together, now Novak holds all 3 together.
Federer was prematurely decalred as GOAT by the media.
IMO, Roger is still 2 and might remain 2 ahead of Nadal even if Nadal wins 1-2 more slams (because in my book Nadal is a bit 1 dimensional) but there there is no doubt that Djokovic is number 1 and the actual successor to the legacy of the previous GOATS Rod Laver and Pete Sampras.
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Interesting that you don’t see the irony.
KHAN SINGH
New User
What Irony? Are you suggesting that Novak now is declared prematurely like Fed was?
Reality is that Fed never sealed the GOAT debate, even in his peak Nadal was giving him problems and there were talks of Nadal being Young enough to chase Roger's record of slams. ..also Fed's dominance was punctured by Nadal even before Fed broke Pete's record ( W08 loss, AO09 loss, crying at presentation nd what not ).
Then Novak had also beaten Fed at AO08, the year 2010 went to Nadal and 2011 went to Novak who usurped it from Nadal, Fed was watching this happen infront of his eyes and he wasn't done physically but he was already relegated to 3rd best by his 2 young opponents. Being relegated to 3rd position should have happened in 2015-2016 period and not in 2011, So Federer had no option but to continue because physically he was still right up there but he had became 3rd, no GOAT ever suffers such a plight. Then we all know what happened from 2011 till 2020, the whole decade belonged to Novak and Fed watched his records break even before his retirement.
This all suggests that Fed being called GOAT was premature.
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Tshooter
G.O.A.T.
His formal retirement would be tomorrow. His de facto retirement when he played his last pro match.
Yes to the second question because the de facto date takes precedence if you do not clarify what you mean. If you prefer, clarify the statement “he retired” by specifying formally on [some date] but played his last match on [some date.]
I’m going to retire both in practice and formally from this thread upon hitting the “Post Reply“ button for this post. That way there will be no confusion about the time difference between my retirement in practice and my formal notice of retirement.
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interesting so you know what will happen in 2022 2023 and so on. If Nadal ends up with more slams, Djokovic will never be undisputed Goat no matter how many other records he holds .
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
We will see what happens but at this point Djokovic is the massive favourite to win the slam record and have most the other big records which he already has. Fed is finished and only Rafa can do anything about it but it feels like it’s probably clay or bust for him now. He has to win FO 2022 or that might be it for him so big pressure.
KHAN SINGH
New User
If Novak can't then Rafa can't either .
We shall see what happens in next 2-3 years..
In all probability NovK will cross 25 with ease.
There‘s the irony again. In all probability. Give me a break. Show me the calculations you used to arrive at these probabilities. Most likely they were pulled out of your azz.
He was also favourite to win AO2017
The tortoise may have won the race but he can never claim to have been the fastest.
Sorry Djokovic - that is too late
KHAN SINGH
New User
The calculations that I used is simple logic
Federer has been unable to do anything to Novak in Slams for close to a decade.
Nadal has tried to break Novak's spirit on Clay since 06 and failed, Novak is 2-1 vs Nadal at Roland Garros in the last 6 years and also is the defending champion nd reigning world number 1.
Plus Novak has the highest winning % ever for any player vs guys younger to him, it must be close to 95%.
These are massive numbers, tells us volumes on how complete a player he is and how much ahead he is of the pack. Unless his win% starts to drop vs those younger to him, we cannot expect the old guns to stop him. In reality there is a big question mark on Rafa right now, the next gen are already here, Novak is here, in all fairness Rafa has no frenchs left in him or maybe at best 1 french in him
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Istomin had done nothing to Novak before AO2017. What would logic tell you about the outcome of that R2 match?
KHAN SINGH
New User
Everything that Federer has done till now in terms of Longevity will also be beaten by Djokovic, including the modern record for oldest slam winner at 36, wait and watch, that is also coming.
By the time Novak retires Federer's numbers will look really ordinary and more people will doubt the actual level of Federer's peak of 04-07
Avoiding the question is the best indication of defeat. Thank you.
Gazelle
G.O.A.T.
He retired after Fed won his first Wimbledon.
Yeah but Fed hardly chased him considering he was retired in 2002.
Gazelle
G.O.A.T.
Deities don't need to bother with chasing anyone.
I’m one Djokovic fan that defends Fed 04-07 yes the competition wasn’t the strongest but he literally trashed everyone. But Fed didn’t have many ATG as Sampras was gone, Nadal was a baby that wasn’t yet elite off Clay. Also Nadal being tough and winning Wimbledon and AO was Fed’s fault for letting him. Nadal shouldn’t be beating a mid 20’s Fed at his 2 best slams
Gazelle
G.O.A.T.
Yes, Wimby 08 and AO 09 pissed me off big time back in the day. Now they feel minor compared with Wimby 19.
ForehandRF
Legend
It's like saying that Nadal shouldn't be beating a mid 20s Novak in the USO Final.As I said on other occasions, Nadal carried the momentum after destroying Fed at RG, in 2008, plus he played very well and Fed wasn't supposed to win them all.I mean, he had to lose a hardcourt slam final at one point and a Wimbledon match as well; nobody has won 6 in a row at a slam.I still don't understand why so many people hold it against Fed for those 2 matches and that including some of his fans
Yeah the 2013 F lose Djokovic shouldn’t be losing but the USO isn’t Djokovic best or even 2nd best slam.It's like saying that Nadal shouldn't be beating a mid 20s Novak in the USO Final.As I said on other occasions, Nadal carried the momentum after destroying Fed at RG, in 2008, plus he played very well and Fed wasn't supposed to win them all.I mean, he had to lose a hardcourt slam final at one point and an Wimbledon match as well; nobody has won 6 in a row at a slam
Nadal has 3 slams combined at AO/W and in 2 of them he beat Fed as a 21/22 year old kid. As I said before if Fed and Djokovic swapped places/age Fed wouldn’t lose to Wawrinka like Djokovic did but also Djokovic doesn’t lose to young Nadal at AO or W.
My main point is that yeah now Nadal challenging Prime Fed looks more impressive because Fed gave him the slams. Fed won most of his slams when Nadal wasn’t around or when Nadal wasn’t great off clay.
Anyway what I’m trying to say it would still balance if you change ages. Djokovic would dominate 04-08 but would have a few more upsets than Fed did as Fed was ruthless but Djokovic would have better success against Nadal and would be more successful post 08 than Fed was
I feel W08 and AO09 are loses that shouldn’t of happened but 2019 was way more heartbreaking and painful
ForehandRF
Legend
My point is not centered on that hypothetical age swap amyway and you have some good points there.
Where I want to focus the convo is that Nadal also won 2 of his USO titles by beating Djokovic and considering that hardcourts are Serb's favorite surface, he should have not allowed Nadal to beat him in the finals, so he is also guilty like Fed no ? I mean, you can't simply dismiss that by saying that the USO is not one of Novak's favorite slams because it should have been one of his best slam taking into consideration how many finals he has reached there.So, Nadal won one AO and one Wimbledon with Fed in the finals, but he also won 2 USOs with Djokovic in the finals.You can't blame Fed only for allowing the Bull to win.
Had both not allowed Nadal to win those matches, he wouldn't be in the GOAT conversation now.So, Fedovic failed somehow here or Nadal's level was just too good and he deserved to win those matches in order to be in the position he is now ? I think it's the second option
What Djokovic has over Fed is this case is that he denied Nadal at his best slam, while Fed lost that 2008 Wimbledon so I'll give him that, but my point of view expressed above still stands.Another thing here though is that Nadal didn't blinked in the 5th set in the 2008 Wimbledon Final, while he blinked on the 5th set of the 2012 AO Final and I think that should count for something.
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2010 Nadal was just simply a better player than Djokovic. It doesn’t really count in my argument as Djokovic pre 2011 is nowhere near the level he got too and it was.My point is not centered on that hypothetical age swap amyway and you have some good points there.
Where I want to focus the convo is that Nadal also won 2 of his USO titles by beating Djokovic and considering that hardcourts are Serb's favorite surface, he should have not allowed Nadal to beat him in the finals, so he is also guilty like Fed no ? I mean, you can't simply dismiss that by saying that the USO is not one of Novak's favorite slams because it should have been one of his best slam taking into consideration how many finals he has reached there.So, Nadal won one AO and one Wimbledon with Fed in the finals, but he also won 2 USOs with Djokovic in the finals.You can't blame Fed more for allowing the Bull to win.
Had both not allowed Nadal to win those matches, he wouldn't be in the GOAT conversation now.So, Fedovic failed somehow here or Nadal's level was just too good and he deserved to win those matches in order to be in the position he is now ? I think it's the second option
What Djokovic has over Fed is this case is that he denied Nadal at his best slam, while Fed lost that 2008 Wimbledon so I'll give him that, but my point of view expressed above still stands.
Yes both failed in places they shouldn’t but I always feel that Djokovic does better from 2004-2018 if put in Fed’s position. Fed from 04-07 was so ruthless you put any player in history at their peak or not and they do worse but Djokovic would be better over 10 years I feel.
For me Nadal is the highest level when it’s a one of match(Clay)
Fed is the highest level over 3/4 years
Djokovic is the highest level over 10+ years.
All are great in their own way
ForehandRF
Legend
Fair enough
Dedans Penthouse
Legend
alinefx
Rookie
And massive blink in the 2017 AO Final. Was up a break just like 2012, but fed started GOATing from that point on. He would have crushed even peak Djoker on that day from that point on.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
It's always going to be a matter of preference, and conversation, as it should be. It really is more than just having extra weeks at #1. That said, don't think I don't know what kind of account you're going to be
Subway Tennis
Legend
Very interesting way of measuring the three players.
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