Djokovic's and Nadal's stamina - how is it so much higher than everyone else?

[Jokervich]

I can already sense this thread will get deleted but hopefully not.

Djokovic and Nadal are able to consistently outlast opponents in best of 5, almost ridiculously so. I didn't think much of it before. But now in their mid 30's, outlasting guys 10+ years younger, both these guys are somehow able to gain MORE energy as matches progress. You can see in any of Djokovic's slam matches last year. If it got to a 4th or 5th set, his opponents would look visibly tired and start cramping, while Djokovic looked fresh as a daisy. It was almost ridiculous to see this time and time again. He lost at the US Open to Medvedev, but it was a relatively quick straight sets loss. Medvedev admitted later that if that match went to 4 sets, he would not have won - he was already cramping and getting tired.

Nadal as well. His stamina over the years has been ridiculous. Only Djokovic is capable of outlasting him. Against Medvedev at the AO last month, Nadal grew stronger as the match progressed. It definitely looked like he was gaining more energy in the 4th and 5th set, which is unusual. Medvedev followed the conventional pattern of getting tired as the match progressed. Nadal was the opposite. He is 35 years old, 10 years older than Medvedev.

Both Nadal and Djokovic are noticeably weaker in best of 3. The top guys like Zverev, Medvedev, Tsitsipas, even Rublev, routinely get the better of Djokovic and Nadal in best of 3. But in best of 5, if matches go on long enough, Nadal and Djokovic become almost impossible to beat. And I believe it's the ungodly levels of stamina they possess that helps them do so well in best of 5.

So questions:

- first of all, do you agree that their stamina is so much higher than everyone else's and this is what gives them the edge in best of 5?
- why is it so high?

I mean, I'm a Djokovic fan but even I'm curious about this.

 

[Deleted member 748597]

 

[weakera]

The top guys like Zverev, Medvedev, Tsitsipas, even Rublev, routinely get the better of Djokovic and Nadal in best of 3. But in best of 5, if matches go on long enough, Nadal and Djokovic become almost impossible to beat. And I believe it's the ungodly levels of stamina they possess that helps them do so well in best of 5.

Unfortunately, this isn't true at all for Rafa in recent years. It's only Djokovic who has the suspiciously unfathomable stamina.

 

[Jokervich]

Unfortunately, this isn't true at all for Rafa in recent years. It's only Djokovic who has the suspiciously unfathomable stamina.

Nadal's issues seemed related to injury, especially last year, not stamina. When injury free, he also has really high stamina levels like at the AO this year.

 

[intrepidish]

I can already sense this thread will get deleted but hopefully not.

Djokovic and Nadal are able to consistently outlast opponents in best of 5, almost ridiculously so. I didn't think much of it before. But now in their mid 30's, outlasting guys 10+ years younger, both these guys are somehow able to gain MORE energy as matches progress. You can see in any of Djokovic's slam matches last year. If it got to a 4th or 5th set, his opponents would look visibly tired and start cramping, while Djokovic looked fresh as a daisy. It was almost ridiculous to see this time and time again. He lost at the US Open to Medvedev, but it was a relatively quick straight sets loss. Medvedev admitted later that if that match went to 4 sets, he would not have won - he was already cramping and getting tired.

Nadal as well. His stamina over the years has been ridiculous. Only Djokovic is capable of outlasting him. Against Medvedev at the AO last month, Nadal grew stronger as the match progressed. It definitely looked like he was gaining more energy in the 4th and 5th set, which is unusual. Medvedev followed the conventional pattern of getting tired as the match progressed. Nadal was the opposite. He is 35 years old, 10 years older than Medvedev.

Both Nadal and Djokovic are noticeably weaker in best of 3. The top guys like Zverev, Medvedev, Tsitsipas, even Rublev, routinely get the better of Djokovic and Nadal in best of 3. But in best of 5, if matches go on long enough, Nadal and Djokovic become almost impossible to beat. And I believe it's the ungodly levels of stamina they possess that helps them do so well in best of 5.

So questions:

- first of all, do you agree that their stamina is so much higher than everyone else's and this is what gives them the edge in best of 5?
- why is it so high?

I mean, I'm a Djokovic fan but even I'm curious about this.

I don't think it's that much higher and in some cases, depending on the match played, it ISN'T higher.

But some of it is pacing and the wisdom which comes from having been in certain situations and being able to control your nerves. Nerves can eat up a LOT of energy.

Some of it is the result of great training technique and consistency over long periods of time and certain kinds of stamina can do very well in that regard vs a younger opponent whereas within longer single points, I don't think either guy is at the top of the game anymore. I think Medvedev has better single point shot tolerance than either guy if a match goes a couple of hours or so for example.

I also think you should add Federer to this list and his work with Paganini set the standard.

 

[weakera]

Nadal's issues seemed related to injury, especially last year, not stamina. When injury free, he also gains the really high stamina levels like at the AO this year.

That's an interesting notion. I've been assured that Nadal's losses, even when followed by a 6+ month absence from the tour, have nothing to do with injury

 

[TheNachoMan]

You actually hit your peak in terms of endurance and stamina in your 30s.

 

[MichaelNadal]

You actually hit your peak in terms of endurance and stamina in your 30s.

That's not how I feel lol

 

[intrepidish]

You actually hit your peak in terms of endurance and stamina in your 30s.

Not nearly as much the case for single points requiring high shot tolerance though which is what I was saying above. For longer overall periods of exertion i.e. a longer overall match vs individual long points in a match, yes perhaps and that's a bit what happened at the AO this year.

 

[InsideOut900]

Welp, we can't forget Federer won AO at 35.5 with 3 five setters and nearly beat Djokovic in a 5 hours final at age 38.

Nadal has in fact started to have stamina issues into his mid 30s (since 2020). His bulky construction clearly doesn't help.

 

[Jokervich]

Welp, we can't forget Federer won AO at 35.5 with 3 five setters and nearly beat Djokovic in a 5 hours final at age 38.

Nadal has in fact started to have stamina issues into his mid 30s (since 2020). His bulky construction clearly doesn't help.

I guess so. I didn't include Federer because I remember him failing in a lot of 5 set matches. But you could be right about him as well.

 

[São Paulo]

Alt. title for thread:
Djokovic's 'medical time-outs' at crucial moments during Majors/Slams: why are they more common than everyone else's?

 

[Jokervich]

Alt. title for thread:
Djokovic's 'medical time-outs' at crucial moments during Majors/Slams: why are they more common than everyone else's?

Is that related to the stamina issue?

 

[Thriller]

There's how much energy you have. And how much your technique breaks down when your energy declines. How inefficient your movement becomes as your energy declines. How much your concentration breaks down as you tire. How much your will to win declines as the pain increases. This is very obvious in the swimming pool, you will see swimmers whose technique falls apart in the last 10 metres as they tire. Those who can maintain their form all the way to the line usually win.

And that assumes that everyone is starting from the same base. Some people, like some horses or any other animal, naturally have more stamina than others, more speed than others, more strength than others.

So take technically the two best tennis players ever, who are also amongst the best if not the best athletes ever, and add in a cast iron will to win, and a willingness to embrace suffering to get there, and you have the last two men standing in the GOAT race.

 

[DSH]

Federer, at almost 38 years old, outlasted the fittest player on the planet and were it not for the inclusion of the tie-break in the decider, he would have won.

 

[intrepidish]

Federer, at almost 38 years old, outlasted the fittest player on the planet and were it not for the inclusion of the tie-break in the decider, he would have won.

Federer looked fitter most of that match, a fact which is covered up too often by the 40-15 chants. It's way too overlooked...

 

[Jokervich]

Federer, at almost 38 years old, outlasted the fittest player on the planet and were it not for the inclusion of the tie-break in the decider, he would have won.

You're the second person to mention Federer. I wasn't sure whether to include him, because I remember him losing a lot of long matches.

 

[Silverbullet96]

Federer, at almost 38 years old, outlasted the fittest player on the planet and were it not for the inclusion of the tie-break in the decider, he would have won.

True, Federer's playing style is all about outgrinding and outlasting.

 

[Silverbullet96]

I don't know, honestly. It's surprising to me also, maybe Father Time isn't all that powerful as he's hyped to be.

 

[Thriller]

Those are fair points, especially with regard to technique breaking down. I just don't think will to win alone is what causes this. It certainly helps a lot though.

Thanks.
And I forgot experience. Doing something is a lot easier than attempting something. When you have done it before on several occasions and ended up with a reward, you know you can do it again. For a lot of the younger players, especially in slams as they are not used to BO5, they are in unknown territory in sets 4 and 5. Nervousness is very tiring.

 

[Tennisbg]

I guess so. I didn't include Federer because I remember him failing in a lot of 5 set matches. But you could be right about him as well.

the mind failed, not the body

 

[Silverbullet96]

Welp, we can't forget Federer won AO at 35.5 with 3 five setters and nearly beat Djokovic in a 5 hours final at age 38.

Nadal has in fact started to have stamina issues into his mid 30s (since 2020). His bulky construction clearly doesn't help.

Nadal spent 24:38 hours on court in AO 2022 & Federer spent 17:34 hours in AO 2017, a significant difference.
But to be fair Federer's flawless 2017 comeback can be seen as surprising, just like Nadal's in 2022 & the other years. Playing much better after a 6 month break from competition than before, isn't how it's supposed to work at all, from what I understand from what other athletes & people in general say.

 

[gameovais]

You actually hit your peak in terms of endurance and stamina in your 30s.

No - completely disagree. I'm nowhere capable of what I was capable of when I was 25/26. If most people are built the same you probaby peak in mid-late 20s and then start a slow gradual decline when you hit 30 and then it accelerates towards 40.

 

[DSH]

Nadal spent 24:38 hours on court in AO 2022 & Federer spent 17:34 hours in AO 2017, a significant difference.
But to be fair Federer's flawless 2017 comeback can be seen as surprising, just like Nadal's in 2022 & the other years. Playing much better after a 6 month break from competition than before, isn't how it's supposed to work at all, from what I understand from what other athletes & people in general say.

How many hours did your idol play at RG 2021?

 

[ewiewp]

I can already sense this thread will get deleted but hopefully not.

Djokovic and Nadal are able to consistently outlast opponents in best of 5, almost ridiculously so. I didn't think much of it before. But now in their mid 30's, outlasting guys 10+ years younger, both these guys are somehow able to gain MORE energy as matches progress. You can see in any of Djokovic's slam matches last year. If it got to a 4th or 5th set, his opponents would look visibly tired and start cramping, while Djokovic looked fresh as a daisy. It was almost ridiculous to see this time and time again. He lost at the US Open to Medvedev, but it was a relatively quick straight sets loss. Medvedev admitted later that if that match went to 4 sets, he would not have won - he was already cramping and getting tired.

Nadal as well. His stamina over the years has been ridiculous. Only Djokovic is capable of outlasting him. Against Medvedev at the AO last month, Nadal grew stronger as the match progressed. It definitely looked like he was gaining more energy in the 4th and 5th set, which is unusual. Medvedev followed the conventional pattern of getting tired as the match progressed. Nadal was the opposite. He is 35 years old, 10 years older than Medvedev.

Both Nadal and Djokovic are noticeably weaker in best of 3. The top guys like Zverev, Medvedev, Tsitsipas, even Rublev, routinely get the better of Djokovic and Nadal in best of 3. But in best of 5, if matches go on long enough, Nadal and Djokovic become almost impossible to beat. And I believe it's the ungodly levels of stamina they possess that helps them do so well in best of 5.

So questions:

- first of all, do you agree that their stamina is so much higher than everyone else's and this is what gives them the edge in best of 5?
- why is it so high?

I mean, I'm a Djokovic fan but even I'm curious about this.

Nadal has been showing signs of aging in recent years.
Djokovic will show some soon.
No one can avoid it.

 

[JaxTeller]

Both of em are physical freaks no doubt, but their opponents tiring,is also due to their racquet craft.. see how Nadal made Medvedev move around the court.. same for Novak vs tsitsipas..

 

[MichaelNadal]

Both of em are physical freaks no doubt, but their opponents tiring,is also due to their racquet craft.. see how Nadal made Medvedev move around the court.. same for Novak vs tsitsipas..

He was slicing and carving like peak Razor Ramon

 

[mike danny]

You actually hit your peak in terms of endurance and stamina in your 30s.

I sincerely doubt Rafa and Novak would be able to pull an AO 2009 or AO 2012 in their 30's. That's why I have doubts regarding this assessment.

 

[Hitman]

I sincerely doubt Rafa and Novak would be able to pull an AO 2009 or AO 2012 in their 30's. That's why I have doubts regarding this assessment.

Djokovic had quite the back to back at RG 2021 though

 

[TheNachoMan]

He was slicing and carving like peak Razor Ramon

I hate Med’s forehand. It looks so bad for a top player.

 

[darthrafa]

repeated answer they come from the era not only gs had bo5 format

and another apparent answer is not every player can be that good
genius are genius

 

[accidental]

As always, it just boils down to the #nextgen players being garbage.

Djokovic and Nadal’s stamina is worse than it was back in 2011-2016, but somehow this new generation are so far off that standard they set that they can’t even compete with the older slower versions of Djokovic/Nadal

 

[Tennisbg]

Nadal spent 24:38 hours on court in AO 2022 & Federer spent 17:34 hours in AO 2017, a significant difference.
But to be fair Federer's flawless 2017 comeback can be seen as surprising, just like Nadal's in 2022 & the other years. Playing much better after a 6 month break from competition than before, isn't how it's supposed to work at all, from what I understand from what other athletes & people in general say.

10 of that hours is hair, butt picking and getting ready to serve.

EDIT: I mean, I am a Rafa fan but I have to be objective. It's very annoying to watch him do this over the years.

 

[The_Mental_Giant]

once Zverev start losing his hairs he begin to resemple Putin.... an oversized yet less dangerous version tho.

 

[mike danny]

Djokovic had quite the back to back at RG 2021 though

Sure, but Tsitsipas stopped doing anything after the first 2 sets.

 

[Silverbullet96]

How many hours did your idol play at RG 2021?

0 hours.

 

[Username_]

weak era

 

[Hitman]

Sure, but Tsitsipas stopped doing anything after the first 2 sets.

Does taking a toilet break count?

 

[Deleted member 788697]

This year's AO Final is the first time in 14 years that Nadal came back from 2-sets-to-love down.
Heck, he couldn't even outlast Federer at the 2017 AO..... and Djokovic at 2018 Wimbledon....
So I haven't had much confidence in Nadal's stamina recently.
We've seen a steady decline of Nadal's stamina throughout his career..... whereas Djokovic went in the opposite direction.

 

[BeatlesFan]

OP claims "yo can see in any of Djokovic's slam matches last year. If it got to a 4th or 5th set, his opponents would look visibly tired and start cramping."

Name one match where any of Djokovic's opponents cramped in a slam last year and identify the players. You made the claim, back it up.

 

[Bambooman]

No - completely disagree. I'm nowhere capable of what I was capable of when I was 25/26. If most people are built the same you probaby peak in mid-late 20s and then start a slow gradual decline when you hit 30 and then it accelerates towards 40.

Many others improve into their late 30s though.

 

[NeutralFan]

Fed 2019 laughs in the corner

 

[Poisoned Slice]

That's not how I feel lol

Word. lol

 

[ServeBot]

OP claims "yo can see in any of Djokovic's slam matches last year. If it got to a 4th or 5th set, his opponents would look visibly tired and start cramping."

Name one match where any of Djokovic's opponents cramped in a slam last year and identify the players. You made the claim, back it up.

Holger Rune USOpen

 

[kevaninho]

You know how when youre a kid, and theres these guys who are just naturally fitter than everyone else?

Yeh, thats probably Nadal and Djokovic, among a billion other top sportsmen/women.

The fact that theyve continued to keep fit for their particular sport, means they wont be like most other 35 year olds, who can go from good football player in HS, to being out of shape because of not continuing what they did as a teen.

Its not like Nadal was once really unfit, and then suddenly became superhuman. That would give out surefire alarm signals. But he always had crazy fitness .

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

... you guys don't bullieve in miracles?

 

[Entername]

Baldrev

 

[ND-13]

When your tennis is weak, your mind plays tricks on you and makes you physically weak as well.

It is weak era. Nothing else.

 

[The Fedfather]

Their stamina doesn't seem to be particularly higher compared to other top players. Apart from some matches, the younger guys are physically okay when going the distance in BO5. Medvedev in this AO final was an exception, not the rule. Djokodal keep "outlasting" players in close matches mentally more than they do physically.

 

[Chanwan]

Nadal spent 24:38 hours on court in AO 2022 & Federer spent 17:34 hours in AO 2017, a significant difference.
But to be fair Federer's flawless 2017 comeback can be seen as surprising, just like Nadal's in 2022 & the other years. Playing much better after a 6 month break from competition than before, isn't how it's supposed to work at all, from what I understand from what other athletes & people in general say.

Those seven hours are all extra time between serves