Does Federer Actually Play With the RF97?
- Thread starter Crie
- Start date
moon shot
Hall of Fame
It is certainly not a 90, which was his old racquet. His current frame is noticeably larger and has a noticably thicker and differently shaped beam. What he plays with is visually it is indistinguishable from a RF97. Thats as much as I can say with certainty
P1 builds a custom handle for him, which may weight different than retail, and they likely adds weight at 12 to increase swingweight.
Is what P1 starts with identical to a retail RF97? Many will say yes including those sponsoring or employed by Federer. Many others will say no, with conviction, spite, theories, or sometimes evidence.
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RanchDressing
Hall of Fame
It's a wilson 97 body, and string pattern, but custom weight layup.
Like what Moon Shot said, it's up in the air whether or not they start with what we get off the shelf. For sure he has a custom pallet molded on, and the last spec that I can confirm he had on his 97 was a static weight of 359g with overgrip. Considering that he's used a 350+ swing weight since like 2008 (and likely even well before that I would bet), and that the overgrip is on there, it's not too hard to tell that the starting spec (regardless how it came about) is lighter than the average retail spec of 357g. We'd need at least another 10 grams (4 for OG possibly 5, and 6 g at 12 for swing weight) to achieve the sw and include overgrip.
So it's totally up to your interpretation. If you ask me, P1 gets an ultra light version and just puts the pallet and lead on it.
So from one angle, he's definitely using the wilson 97. But in terms of models, I wouldn't call what he's using a "normal" rf97a. At best, he's using a production spec outlier, modified to taste. At worst, he has his own line of hairpins being made.
All that fits within the vague terminology wilson uses to describe differences between pro models and retail (custom weight spec).
Like what Moon Shot said, it's up in the air whether or not they start with what we get off the shelf. For sure he has a custom pallet molded on, and the last spec that I can confirm he had on his 97 was a static weight of 359g with overgrip. Considering that he's used a 350+ swing weight since like 2008 (and likely even well before that I would bet), and that the overgrip is on there, it's not too hard to tell that the starting spec (regardless how it came about) is lighter than the average retail spec of 357g. We'd need at least another 10 grams (4 for OG possibly 5, and 6 g at 12 for swing weight) to achieve the sw and include overgrip.
So it's totally up to your interpretation. If you ask me, P1 gets an ultra light version and just puts the pallet and lead on it.
So from one angle, he's definitely using the wilson 97. But in terms of models, I wouldn't call what he's using a "normal" rf97a. At best, he's using a production spec outlier, modified to taste. At worst, he has his own line of hairpins being made.
All that fits within the vague terminology wilson uses to describe differences between pro models and retail (custom weight spec).
RanchDressing
Hall of Fame
It's not possible unless the racquet is under spec
PeterFig
Professional
It's very possible .... and true.
RanchDressing
Hall of Fame
Nope. This is one of several pics from a private auction of federer's own match sticks.
RanchDressing
Hall of Fame
359g, 350+sw, leather grip, and OG is not something you can get with a standard stick, unless it's an underspec and modified racquet.
We also know that roger has been playing with a grip size slightly below 4 3/8" for years, a custom mold that p1 does for him, that also has a pinky groove. That alone is a modification that renders the racquet's waranty useless. So in my opinion, that alone nullifies the idea that it is a "retail frame." That's not even for the reason of specific grip size, but inherent weight of the pallet it's self is different, and more importantly signifies just how different that racquet is. Along side this evidence which I believe is true, it's just not possible that fed uses a "retail" stick. At least, not a normal one.
We also know that roger has been playing with a grip size slightly below 4 3/8" for years, a custom mold that p1 does for him, that also has a pinky groove. That alone is a modification that renders the racquet's waranty useless. So in my opinion, that alone nullifies the idea that it is a "retail frame." That's not even for the reason of specific grip size, but inherent weight of the pallet it's self is different, and more importantly signifies just how different that racquet is. Along side this evidence which I believe is true, it's just not possible that fed uses a "retail" stick. At least, not a normal one.
PeterFig
Professional
Roger is not too worried about the warranty
I have several retail ProStaff frames that have hand the handle mould custom made. They are still the retail racquet with after-market modifications. Just like Roger's. I have some pretty solid sources on this
RanchDressing
Hall of Fame
Did you look at the pic i posted?
How do you go from stock weight of 357 on average, to 359g with a 350+ swing weight, and overgrip.
How much do you get paid to post stuff like that?
RanchDressing
Hall of Fame
Did you even look at the pictures I posted? Lmao. It's not an average racquet. If less than 10% of the racquets being sold can be made to match his specifications, then the racquet being sold is not an accurate representation of what fed's using.Roger is not too worried about the warranty
I have several retail ProStaff frames that have hand the handle mould custom made. They are still the retail racquet with after-market modifications. Just like Roger's. I have some pretty solid sources on this
Just like on the 90.
TT can be like arguing with inn-animate objects.
DNShade
Hall of Fame
Yes. I looked at the pic. 359 is right on spec with OG. And how do you know SW first of all?
I don't get paid at all or work for anyone. I've just actually been around the industry and tennis and a high level for quite a while and know how this stuff goes. Was around a bit when various specs were being tried out etc too. And PeterFig has just bit of inside info too - lol.
PeterFig
Professional
The two things I can tell you:
1. I do not know what exact customizations P1 does to his RF97
2. I do know the starting point is a retail RF97 exactly the same as you can buy here on TW
PeterFig
Professional
RanchDressing
Hall of Fame
Except when I worked at TW what I was told doesn't reflect that at all. So I don't really believe you at all.
So IDK dude. Sounds like a bunch of BS to me.
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RanchDressing
Hall of Fame
Don't buy it for a second. See my other post.
PeterFig
Professional
RanchDressing
Hall of Fame
Right, because I didn't work for tennis warehouse, and didn't ask those directly in contact with P1. Mhm.I think I'll have to take my knowledge and experience over your post
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PeterFig
Professional
I'm again going to go with my knowledge and experience over yours on this one. Having said that I'm totally OK with you not believing what I commented - but your beliefs don't change facts.RanchDressing
Hall of Fame
Let alone the very basic fact that you CAN'T Possibly achieve the fab fed racquet specs by adding weight to a stock 90. It's impossible.
Same case with the 97. I posted a pic. I have good sources.
And you call me crazy. This is exactly the problem with these forums.
Same case with the 97. I posted a pic. I have good sources.
And you call me crazy. This is exactly the problem with these forums.
RanchDressing
Hall of Fame
Lmao, I'm just glad a lot of people believe me.
PeterFig
Professional
I can't comment on the PS90 - it was before my time so it would be wrong for me to make guesses. I can only comment on the RF97.
Would you mind letting us know your sources. I'm interested.
RanchDressing
Hall of Fame
I just said it in this thread. No need to repeat myself.
PeterFig
Professional
Just so I'm clear - your source is TW and Paul? (nothing against either - love TW and I'm sure Paul is a great guy ... haven't had a chance to meet him yet)
RanchDressing
Hall of Fame
For what?
RanchDressing
Hall of Fame
Everything I've said is information that someone competent with basic racquet modification can verify. No sources are even needed to verify that the specs of fed's match stick are not translate able from the stock 90's
Now with these pics, you can easily do the same with the 97. It's math.
Now with these pics, you can easily do the same with the 97. It's math.
PeterFig
Professional
I'll just leave with this one photo I just took ..... a racquet from the same batch as the ones for Roger .... this one is from a couple of months before he switched from the blacked out frame to the first design of the RF97.
I'm not trying to give you a hard time here at all. And I've been happy to debate this with you. It's just that you simply don't have the facts on this and that's fine and not your fault, and that's why I came on here to chime in and post the facts.
PS. Please feel free to make fun of my Wolfgang Puck scale
that's all I had on me.
DNShade
Hall of Fame
So you worked at TW? And Paul is your source? I'm at TW all the time. And I actually know people directly at P1.
So are you still in the SLO area want to meet - have a hit etc? Then we can discuss your theories and I can give you my actual info in person.
PeterFig
Professional
I'll just leave with this one photo I just took ..... a racquet from the same batch as the ones for Roger .... this one is from a couple of months before he switched from the blacked out frame to the first design of the RF97.
I'm not trying to give you a hard time here at all. And I've been happy to debate this with you. It's just that you simply don't have the facts on this and that's fine and not your fault, and that's why I came on here to chime in and post the facts.
PS. Please feel free to make fun of my Wolfgang Puck scale
I think my photo also proves once and for all that Roger's racquet is not made of Milk or Water as some conspiracy theories would have you believe!
moon shot
Hall of Fame
I'll just leave with this one photo I just took ..... a racquet from the same batch as the ones for Roger .... this one is from a couple of months before he switched from the blacked out frame to the first design of the RF97.
I'm not trying to give you a hard time here at all. And I've been happy to debate this with you. It's just that you simply don't have the facts on this and that's fine and not your fault, and that's why I came on here to chime in and post the facts.
PS. Please feel free to make fun of my Wolfgang Puck scale
It doesn't appear this frame is strung, right? Did it have a grip or OG?
RanchDressing
Hall of Fame
Send me a pm. I'd be glad to meet and I need new hitting partners. I tried being a member at avila and just wasn't happy. Once my wrist heals I'm dieing to have some new people to hit with.
PeterFig
Professional
Unstrung ... leather grip only. 340g - right on spec.
Say Chi Sin Lo
G.O.A.T.
Really? All this because of a 2grams difference? You know if you wrap slightly more overgrip, use a thicker string, tie a bigger knot, then there's your 2 grams.
Not to mention it's a known fact that Mr. Federer has lead tape at 12 o'clock.
Then there's the whole "why does it matter to you" which is apparently blowing up people's minds at the moment.
Not to mention it's a known fact that Mr. Federer has lead tape at 12 o'clock.
Then there's the whole "why does it matter to you" which is apparently blowing up people's minds at the moment.
dr325i
G.O.A.T.
Peter, Peter...
The retail frame is 340g UNSTRUNG (average).
Strings are 17g
Overgrip is (at least) 7g.
340 + 17 + 7 = 364g
Hence, they either pick frames that are on the light side from the batch or the frame is a pro stock that usually comes lighter for customization, all of it mentioned by Ranch Dressing.
I also recall lead tape at 12 on P1 pictures of Federer's frames.
Do not try to make fools out of people here...
RanchDressing
Hall of Fame
DNS And I had a chat, and I understand what he wast trying to say. Looks like we'll be friends or at least have a few hits, great guy.
I didn't make it clear that the difference is purely in the weight distribution, not in the layup/shape thicknesses/string pattern. So I think from there it's open to each person's interpretation about what that actually means. To me, if I have to void the warranty to get the same weight distribution, that disqualifies the notion that it is the same racquet. But that's just my own interpretation.
DNS was right in that that frame is the same, in the sense that it's not like Novak or Murray where it's a completely different stick. And I agree with that.
I think it's not un-realistic to say wilson hand picks the sticks to be ultra light and sends them to p1 (as a hair pin, minus the pallet obviously), but each person can take their own stance on it from there. I wouldn't be surprised if they just take the same mold+layup and just add weight to it differently for fed. In theory, that is still the same "racquet", but in terms of what the consumer gets... It's a wash.
Isn't it possible that P1 does receive Federer's RF 97s from Wilson right on spec (or at least not intentionally well under) as @PeterFig has stated but then simply uses a lighter custom handle mold (lighter foam and/or weights added by factory removed)? Maybe the P1 leather grip he uses is lighter than the stock grip too?
With enough weight removed from the handle of the stock RF 97, P1 could easily get Federer's racquet to weigh only 359 grams even with lead under the bumper.
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Say Chi Sin Lo
G.O.A.T.
Wait... Hold on, you mean to me that, there's a strong chance that this...
That, is something that I cannot buy and park on my front yard? HOLD ON HERE! What is going on here?!
Oh wait, I forget...
Oh the struggle...
That, is something that I cannot buy and park on my front yard? HOLD ON HERE! What is going on here?!
Oh wait, I forget...
Oh the struggle...
DNShade
Hall of Fame
Actually the whole NASCAR analogy is totally wrong. No one is trying to convince that car buying public that they can actually buy a "Camry" NASCAR race car.
Now if they were saying that the below is the actual car used to win Daytona and you couldn't even buy this Camry- then that would be the appropriate comparison.
That is what the PJ thing was doing - lying to the tennis consumer on what their favorite pro was actually using and saying that they could buy the same basic frame when it wasn't even close.
Now with the RF97 - this is different. The base frame Roger uses is the same with what you purchase. Just with some leadwork, grip and tweaking to his specs etc. That is quite acceptable.
Now if they were saying that the below is the actual car used to win Daytona and you couldn't even buy this Camry- then that would be the appropriate comparison.
That is what the PJ thing was doing - lying to the tennis consumer on what their favorite pro was actually using and saying that they could buy the same basic frame when it wasn't even close.
Now with the RF97 - this is different. The base frame Roger uses is the same with what you purchase. Just with some leadwork, grip and tweaking to his specs etc. That is quite acceptable.
smalahove
Hall of Fame
Thought I'd post the specs I got from TWE when I paid for racket matching. These are from 6 frames they pick at random from those they have in stock:
Swing weight Weight Balance Stiffness
1. 302 335 31.0 71
2. 301 337 31.0 72
3. 300 340 30.6 72
4. 292 336 30.4 71
5. 299 337 30.6 72
6. 294 337 30.4 71
I picked #4 and #6 to be able to customize them. Adding lead @12 makes them easier to swing.
Strung with Lux Alu Soft 17, with a wilson OG and a small prince dampener, they both weighed 359.
Afaics, none of these rackets can be customized to fabfed specs and clock in at a static weight of 359g with a hybrid setup, leather grip and string savers - whilst having a SW over 350g.
Other than that, I have no stake in this beef
Swing weight Weight Balance Stiffness
1. 302 335 31.0 71
2. 301 337 31.0 72
3. 300 340 30.6 72
4. 292 336 30.4 71
5. 299 337 30.6 72
6. 294 337 30.4 71
I picked #4 and #6 to be able to customize them. Adding lead @12 makes them easier to swing.
Strung with Lux Alu Soft 17, with a wilson OG and a small prince dampener, they both weighed 359.
Afaics, none of these rackets can be customized to fabfed specs and clock in at a static weight of 359g with a hybrid setup, leather grip and string savers - whilst having a SW over 350g.
Other than that, I have no stake in this beef
Minion
Hall of Fame
From what I can gather....Wilson sends P1 a whole heap of the RF97 (the same as the retail model) - probably the lightest ones they can find. P1 then does their thing with the handle, lead tape etc..
So, it is the same frame you can buy in the store, but the specs are different....in a nutshell.
I'm ok with that. Not nearly as bad as Head.
So, it is the same frame you can buy in the store, but the specs are different....in a nutshell.
I'm ok with that. Not nearly as bad as Head.
dr325i
G.O.A.T.
Corrected it for you
Nishikori, Dolgopolov, Delpo, Bautista Agut, Gulbis and a few others would agree...
Minion
Hall of Fame
Corrected it for you
Nishikori, Dolgopolov, Delpo, Bautista Agut, Gulbis and a few others would agree...
Hahahaha, yes I know. But I didn't want to offend PeterFig
dgoran
Hall of Fame
I am not taking any sides here but I think big assumption we make here is Feds actual sw which we have no idea. My argument is that if he dropped 5 grams on his racquet he could have dropped 10-15 units on his sw as well...
Of course is it more likely that PETER Fig is not informed correctly by Wilson? Yes, yes it is...
Of course is it more likely that PETER Fig is not informed correctly by Wilson? Yes, yes it is...
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
with strings?
I'll just leave with this one photo I just took ..... a racquet from the same batch as the ones for Roger .... this one is from a couple of months before he switched from the blacked out frame to the first design of the RF97.
I'm not trying to give you a hard time here at all. And I've been happy to debate this with you. It's just that you simply don't have the facts on this and that's fine and not your fault, and that's why I came on here to chime in and post the facts.
PS. Please feel free to make fun of my Wolfgang Puck scale
moon shot
Hall of Fame
I'm not taking a side either. To steal someone else's phrase, I 'root or truth'. I don't care if I'm entirely wrong or he actually plays with a H21.5 or whatever. I'm not trying to match this gram or that balance point. I find it to be informative in a relative sense, if I don't swing with the RHS or swingweight these guys use then there is no way I'll get snapback from a gut/poly hybrid unless I lower tension or compensate in some other way.
Much of the informed speculation is based on assumptions of at least some of the specs not changing, so based on the following remaining unchanged:
Fabfed measured various Fed match used 90s at 364g, 32.1-32.4cm.
This matched ART ART previous claims which also listed a swingweight of 353 kg·cm².
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/customizationReverse.php
If you take the average RF97 27 in - 357.2 g - 31.45 cm - 335 kg·cm²
+5.5g at 27in takes it to 32.01 cm - 353.9 kg·cm²
matching up nicely to the old specs, now to add a grip...
+6g brings the balance back down, but now it is 368.7g
As you suggest: if he reduced by 15 to 339 kg·cm² then that would save 1.2g lowering the weight to 358.4g
+6g for the overgrip brings it to 364.4g and in the range of balance.
Maybe if we start with a underweight frame like the one TWU measured at 27 in - 354 g - 31.3 cm - 322 kg·cm²
+9.3g at 27in takes it to 32.25 cm - 353.9 kg·cm²
but we are already at 363.3, no room for an overgrip under 364g the frame would need to start around 350g strung to be retail + lead.
if reduced by 15 to 339 kg·cm² then that would save 4.37g lowering the weight to 359g
+6g for the overgrip brings it to 365g and in the range of balance.
So it isn't possible to hit 350 kg·cm² without blowing your weight budget, but 339 can be met. This matched ART ART previous claims which also listed a swingweight of 353 kg·cm².
http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/customizationReverse.php
If you take the average RF97 27 in - 357.2 g - 31.45 cm - 335 kg·cm²
+5.5g at 27in takes it to 32.01 cm - 353.9 kg·cm²
matching up nicely to the old specs, now to add a grip...
+6g brings the balance back down, but now it is 368.7g
As you suggest: if he reduced by 15 to 339 kg·cm² then that would save 1.2g lowering the weight to 358.4g
+6g for the overgrip brings it to 364.4g and in the range of balance.
Maybe if we start with a underweight frame like the one TWU measured at 27 in - 354 g - 31.3 cm - 322 kg·cm²
+9.3g at 27in takes it to 32.25 cm - 353.9 kg·cm²
but we are already at 363.3, no room for an overgrip under 364g the frame would need to start around 350g strung to be retail + lead.
if reduced by 15 to 339 kg·cm² then that would save 4.37g lowering the weight to 359g
+6g for the overgrip brings it to 365g and in the range of balance.
I can only think of one way the 359g weight that RD posted can be met. When P1 molds the handle they don't put in one of these weights. If P1 can build a handle that is 10g less around 7in then the limiting budget of swingweight and static weight are lifted.
Negative numbers can be used in the customization tool to play with this.
If you take the average RF97 27 in - 357.2 g - 31.45 cm - 335 kg·cm²
-10g @ 7in becomes 347g - 31.84cm - 334.4kg·cm²
+5.5 @ 27in becomes 358.5g - 32cm - 353.3kg·cm²
I don't know if this is the truth, but it makes sense to me.If you take the average RF97 27 in - 357.2 g - 31.45 cm - 335 kg·cm²
-10g @ 7in becomes 347g - 31.84cm - 334.4kg·cm²
+5.5 @ 27in becomes 358.5g - 32cm - 353.3kg·cm²
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moon shot
Hall of Fame
Say Chi Sin Lo
G.O.A.T.
Why doesn't my RF97 smell like volcanic rocks? I demand a full refund now, and that my next RF97 be forged in the fire of Mordor.
