Does Hitting Directly To Your Practice Partner Hurt Your Game?

[Cindysphinx]

I have a problem with a particular practice partner. It comes up again and again. I feel like I either need to figure out a way to accommodate her beliefs, or I need to tell her why her beliefs are wrong, if they are wrong.

This player believes that if you hit a ball *to* your practice partner, you are training your brain to hit the ball *to* your opponents and it will become a habit. In matches, your brain will make you hit *to* your opponents, even when you want to hit the ball somewhere else.

This issue has come up in the past. For instance, our coach was running a team practice. He had the singles players on one court, and this lady is a singles player. The drill was that the singles players should hit the ball directly to the other singles player no matter where she was on the court for the first three shots, then they should each start to try to win the point. My friend objected strongly to this drill and refused to do it, saying you would never hit directly to your opponent in singles and so it was detrimental to train your brain to do this. The coach was quite annoyed and said that the point of hitting to the player for the first few shots was to get a rally started and demonstrate control.

So that is the issue.

Yesterday, I was practicing with this lady, and we were working on volleys. We each stood at the T and volleyed. She said, "This is probably why I miss so many volleys in matches. We're just training our brains to hit right to the other net player. Do you think that is why I never hit my volleys where they are supposed to go?" I responded to this with: "No." Personally, I think she volleys poorly in matches (and at all other times too) due to poor technique, which causes a lack of control. I offered to move and position myself DTL or crosscourt, but she said that wouldn't solve the problem because she would still be volleying *to* me and not away from me.

What am I supposed to do with this? Is it possible to practice volleys if you hit away from your practice partner? Is there any merit at all to the idea of training your brain to hit to people? If there is merit in this idea, how can you practice in a way where you don't spend more time picking up balls than hitting balls?

 

[5263]

I rarely hit at them, but usually hit where they must take 2-3 steps to hit. Maybe this can be a compromise for you. Not at them and not so far away.
Then maybe the slight adjustment to hit open court may be easy for her.
And hitting right at people can be a great weapon in many cases too.

 

[Power Player]

I hit right at them to start a ralley. If the partner is good they will not do a return winner off a ralley ball on purpose. They should send the ball back at you with pace and then I just try and move them around a little and let things unfold naturally.

It's a rythmic thing that develops by playing with the same person, or with someone experienced enough to jump right in and "get it".

There is no reason to not hit at your practice partner. It is building consistency in your strokes. You will have opportunities to paint corners throughout the ralley.

 

[Steady Eddy]

Years ago my pro said to aim at the other player because if you can learn to do that, then it will be easy to aim away from the player during a match. That made sense to me, then and now. I don't think that it's such a big adjustment to aim away that one couldn't accomplish it. And who wants to rally with someone who's always aiming away from you? To get better a person needs to be hitting balls, not walking around picking them up.

 

[raiden031]

Cindy, your partner is a complete idiot! There is no question about that.

Watch ANY pro player practice. They will hit ball after ball straight to their partner in order to get as many repetitions as possible, in fact they even hit it such that the hitting partner doesn't even need to move their feet!

I mean there are definitely drills where you hit away from them, but you also must learn to control the ball and develop consistency and the best way to do this is to learn to hit to the same spot over and over.

Think of it like this. There are like 100 places to hit the ball away from your partner, but only one place to hit the ball to your partner. So if you can master hitting that one spot over and over, you can master hitting to any spot over and over.

Oh and your partner is wasting alot of valuable practice time by hitting the ball away from you. You are getting far less repetitions then you could otherwise get if you had a "cooperative" partner instead of an "idiot" partner.

Sorry for bashing your partner, but she is annoying me just hearing about this!

 

[eagle]

For practice and that's what we are talking about here right ...

I always hit to my partner to get it started and to get a rally going.

After 5 or more shots from each of us, then we can go for shots away from each other.

This gets our rhythm going; work on control; and work on different pace, spins, depth, and height.

We do drills also, so YOU have to send the ball to your partner. What's the point of each of you working on backhand to backhand if you keep sending the ball to his forehand or hitting winners?

Besides, who wants to practice with a partner who hits winners off your feed each and every time? If he wants to hit winners all the time, then he needs to play a match.

I normally shake my head and laugh at folks like this because they are super players in practice but crumble in matches. Proves the statements some folks who say they have 4.0-4.5 strokes but play like 3.0-3.5 during matches.

r,
eagle

 

[Power Player]

^^^

agree. I actually aplogize if I hit a shot too far from my partner that ends up being a winner on the first 2-3 strokes.

Sometimes I have to throw a slice to return a shot that got me out of position and if it drops and rolls I usually apologize for that. We both do..just kind of how we practice. the goal is to rally for a bit before opening it up and hitting corners.

 

[WildVolley]

The pros do practice hitting to each other, but they also practice put aways. When you're learning your technique and trying to improve, you have to hit it to the other person for efficiency. Spending all your time picking up balls means a lot of wasted time.

However, once the technique is solid, it really does pay to start drilling on hitting the angles and drop volleys, etc. It is best to have a basket full of balls and allow one person to feed. You can require the person to return one shot to you before putting the ball away, or they can go for the winner off the bat.

The pros do practice hitting winners, too. I've watched them.

 

[raiden031]

The pros do practice hitting to each other, but they also practice put aways. When you're learning your technique and trying to improve, you have to hit it to the other person for efficiency. Spending all your time picking up balls means a lot of wasted time.

However, once the technique is solid, it really does pay to start drilling on hitting the angles and drop volleys, etc. It is best to have a basket full of balls and allow one person to feed. You can require the person to return one shot to you before putting the ball away, or they can go for the winner off the bat.

The pros do practice hitting winners, too. I've watched them.

Of course they do. However when I watch the pros practicing at tournaments, they spend most of the time hitting cooperatively to one another. I watched Soderling over the course of 3-4 hours at Legg Mason basically hitting like 30 shot rallies the whole time. Volleys, forehands, backhands, etc. I didn't see him go for any winners.

By God, Any 3.5 player who spends more time practicing winners than rally balls is wasting their time.

 

[eagle]

I personally don't like balls fed to me from a basket or machine.

Why? It comes from the same location and typically the same height, speed, and spin. It doesn't simulate enough a ball hit by an opponent who will give you more variety and different looks .... and not necessarily intentionally.

r,
eagle

 

[Nellie]

In any good drill, you would hit a couple back to your partner and then go for winner. Also, your partner, even if hitting "to" you could give you a variety of looks (low/high, slice/topspin, slow/fast, etc.)

 

[fps]

it's idiocy. you should practise putting the ball in different places- practise crosscourt, down the line, whatever, as well as standard shots, but you're learning to hit the stroke, not to his to a person.

at net, i like to hit a couple then try passing shots (not lobs). this is a good compromise, as long as the passing shots are accurate (in court, over the net).

 

[Ucantplay2much]

I feel like I either need to figure out a way to accommodate her beliefs, or I need to tell her why her beliefs are wrong, if they are wrong.

If she's not listening to your coach, she's not going to listen to anybody. You could accommodate her by planning on just playing matches when you get together. Find someone who is more flexible to practice with.

 

[WildVolley]

Of course they do. However when I watch the pros practicing at tournaments, they spend most of the time hitting cooperatively to one another. I watched Soderling over the course of 3-4 hours at Legg Mason basically hitting like 30 shot rallies the whole time. Volleys, forehands, backhands, etc. I didn't see him go for any winners.

By God, Any 3.5 player who spends more time practicing winners than rally balls is wasting their time.

I definitely agree. Consistency is key, even at the professional level. Most of the time they hit to each other and then go for winners when they play practice sets.

I believe most players should work on a bunch of different things in a single practice. Switch it up. Being able to go down the middle consistently is going to pay off at the 3.5 level. It doesn't mean you shouldn't do drills that are more difficult; just that you shouldn't devote too much time to them. If taken seriously, put away drills are useful at any level above beginner.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I think I figured this out!!

The problem here is that she is a singles player and I am a doubles player.

In singles (at our level, anyway), you win a lot of points by trying to hit away from your opponents and trying to find the open court. Your ball into the open court needn't be precise -- just so long as it is away from the other player. Make 'em run, make 'em run.

In doubles, there is no open court. There are always two people who can run down your shot. You need more precise placement and weight on your volleys. You *will* often be hitting directly to or very near an opponent (e.g. volley exchanges, passing shots, volleys at the feet).

This must be part of the disconnect. I want to practice control and placement, and she wants to practice finding the open court.

It was really weird yesterday, though. For instance, she wanted to practice her serve and her return. Fine. I said, "All right, how about if one of us serves and we'll play out the points crosscourt and try to move into net so we practice our approach volleys and half-volleys." She said no, she needed to practice her DTL service return.

So I serve from the deuce court with five balls in my pocket, and she smacks each one DTL. For me, it was a drill called "Serve five balls, go pick up five balls." When it was my turn to serve, I tried to return them deep, right to the place she was standing.

We had the same problem on an overhead/lob drill. I wanted her to hit her overheads back to me so I could hit another lob, but she wanted to hit into the open court. Feed five balls, pick up five balls.

And so it went. I think we are just incompatible on the practice court.

Singles players. Puh!

Cindy -- who doesn't understand why we are practicing singles skills when the next nine months of the league season is exclusively doubles

 

[eagle]

Yes, I suppose you can rationalize her concept of practice as singles vs. doubles. It's a stretch.

I say you need a new practice partner. Someone whose goals and concepts of practice are the same as yours.

You'll find that there are a lot more players who share your views than hers.

r,
eagle

 

[raiden031]

I think I figured this out!!

The problem here is that she is a singles player and I am a doubles player.

Singles players. Puh!

Cindy -- who doesn't understand why we are practicing singles skills when the next nine months of the league season is exclusively doubles

Do not make excuses for her! She does not need to learn how to hit the ball away from the opponent. She needs to learn how to direct the ball to any particular area on the court. If she wants to practice DTL, then you need to stand DTL and rally with her. If she wants to practice cross-court, then you need to stand cross-court. If she wants to hit overheads to the corner, then you should stand in the corner so that you can continue to feed her overheads.

This is ridiculous. I seriously doubt her groundstrokes are sooo good that she doesn't need to hit cooperatively.

 

[LeeD]

Sorry you get stuck with weak serving slow moving partners, then get stuck with self centered totally non flexible practice partners.
With this self centered, non flexible practice partner, I'd just play sets against her and use what you can from it to work on your game. Not doubles practice for sure, but practice is still practice.
I've hit with weak 3.5 players on up to strong 6.5 Mens, and we always start a rally hitting to each other, then start picking on weaker sides, then start hitting out hard and deep, then start going for angles and DTL's. Hardly ever a complaint, except maybe from static non runners who just want to hit, so refuse to move. Then just hit it 3 steps away, inticing them to move a bit...
Remember, the purpose of this is PRACTICE ! You don't necessarily need team spirit or common purpose, you just need to hit the ball more !!!

 

[GS]

Hey, Lee! Can you make it over to Rockridge sometime this week for a hit?
gesimon1@yahoo.com

 

[GuyClinch]

Tell your partner she is wrong. Hitting to your practice partner is standard stuff. <g> These people you hit with aren't real tennis players at this point. They haven't learned the game yet.

Pete

 

[smoothtennis]

I regularly hit with a couple of 4.5's for 'practice.' In the practice portion, we have a rally ball rule. Six total hits to develop rhthym before anybody start placing the ball aggressively, or tyring to force each other out of position. If we miss before six, we start over.

This forces a singles player to learn a consitent rally ball, develop a rhthym and learn how to increase and build smart pressure into a rally.

Case in point - I was watching a replay of a Murray point the other day that went 51 strokes! These are two top pro's hitting in a tournament for money. They didn't hit away from each other every shot. They would try something aggressive, and when it didn't pan out after some good defense from the opponent - they would hit 5-6 neutral balls - without aggressive placement. When someone felt they had an advantage, they would then go for aggressive placement with more pace or spin.

My feeling? If a person at 3.5 cannot hit a twenty ball rally back and forth to the person they are hitting with - cooperative hitting here.....they shouldn't work on too much else most of the time.

If they can't understand the benefit and value of this type of hitting, then just play sets with them - practice is semi-futile with this type of player.

PS - after a good warmup, I hit 50-100 ball rallies with these two partners before we start anything else most of the time.

 

[LeeD]

GS, I think I replied, but I don't know computers.
I can't even remember my phone # maybe 1-510-965- geez, I can't remember!
domports@yahoo.com
0055 ??
Sorry, I'm really dumb.
I've never dialed my cell phone!
sorry, Domond

 

[LeeD]

Sorry, my brain fade...
2055, before I forget again.
1-510-965-2055
Oh, I can't find Davies Courts, where lots of my friends play. Used to be top dog at RoseGarden noon doubles, always playing with the worse of the 4some, never with the next best or even the 3rd best....

 

[drakulie]

when practicing, I hit the ball away from my "practice" partner. This way, I am sure to not get any balls hit back at me. :roll:

 

[Xisbum]

when practicing, I hit the ball away from my "practice" partner. This way, I am sure to not get any balls hit back at me. :roll:

Sarcism, thy name is "drakulie."

 

[sureshs]

Cindy's point is valid. Club players don't seem to have the ability to turn on and off their practise mode as necessary. The ones who do win their matches because they are not coming in with a "rally" mindset.

 

[user92626]

OP,

Some people are neurotic and some are not, or some are more than others. All of us are neurotic in some way. For example, how many here can bring themselves to rally in a match the way they rally in practice, pace and all? It can be difficult to carry over.

With that said, you two should practice where both overlap and reap just as much benefit and move on to find other partners who are more on the same page. If she cares about practicing 5 shots dtl and you care about not having to pick them up, why not ...get more balls?

I'm against calling anybody an idiot or wrong. We ain't at pro level where we can afford to play as many tournaments as we like and mind only ourselves. At this level most people are at the mercy of having a partner, group or a game to play with. So, you take what you can get.

 

[fruitytennis1]

Rule for me and my buddies. Null feed/Null return. Then anything goes.

 

[JavierLW]

I think I figured this out!!

The problem here is that she is a singles player and I am a doubles player.

In singles (at our level, anyway), you win a lot of points by trying to hit away from your opponents and trying to find the open court. Your ball into the open court needn't be precise -- just so long as it is away from the other player. Make 'em run, make 'em run.

In doubles, there is no open court. There are always two people who can run down your shot. You need more precise placement and weight on your volleys. You *will* often be hitting directly to or very near an opponent (e.g. volley exchanges, passing shots, volleys at the feet).

This must be part of the disconnect. I want to practice control and placement, and she wants to practice finding the open court.

It was really weird yesterday, though. For instance, she wanted to practice her serve and her return. Fine. I said, "All right, how about if one of us serves and we'll play out the points crosscourt and try to move into net so we practice our approach volleys and half-volleys." She said no, she needed to practice her DTL service return.

So I serve from the deuce court with five balls in my pocket, and she smacks each one DTL. For me, it was a drill called "Serve five balls, go pick up five balls." When it was my turn to serve, I tried to return them deep, right to the place she was standing.

We had the same problem on an overhead/lob drill. I wanted her to hit her overheads back to me so I could hit another lob, but she wanted to hit into the open court. Feed five balls, pick up five balls.

And so it went. I think we are just incompatible on the practice court.

Singles players. Puh!

Cindy -- who doesn't understand why we are practicing singles skills when the next nine months of the league season is exclusively doubles

I was thinking that as well.

In a doubles match you're pretty much forced to hit everything close enough to your opponents that it wouldnt really be all that out of line if it was a practice session.

There just isnt that sort of real estate, especially if they are positioned well.

But even besides that, she is crazy. There are two of you, right? You both want to hit the ball, right?

Hitting winners just doesnt really work then, if you're going to do that, then you might as well play a singles match or shadow doubles (doubles on just one half of the court). At least you wont have as many balls to pick up then.

If they want to pay you $70 an hour to be a ball machine for them where you feed them a basket of balls that they can spray all over the court, that would probably be a great deal for you. Otherwise it's a huge waste of time for one of you.

 

[naylor]

I think I figured this out!!
The problem here is that she is a singles player and I am a doubles player... This must be part of the disconnect. I want to practice control and placement, and she wants to practice finding the open court.
It was really weird yesterday, though. For instance, she wanted to practice her serve and her return... She said... she needed to practice her DTL service return...
We had the same problem on an overhead/lob drill... she wanted to hit into the open court...

Lots of people have already made the point about practising for consistency and getting their strokes grooved, by playing the ball back to their practice partner rather than away from them. This applies whether you are a singles or a doubles player. Indeed, singles players need more consistency and placement control than doubles players, because they have a lot more court to defend by themselves - so, it's not just "finding the open court", but "finding the right place on the open court" so the ball doesn't come back, or if it comes back it does so to where they're already covering its return.

Your friend doesn't make an ideal practice partner. But she may have her uses, in terms of practising your own attacking, defending and counter-attacking strokes.

For instance, if she wants to practice her down-the-line returns, then you can practice your serves - to make the down-the-line difficult to hit. So, from the deuce court, you can practice your sliced wide serves (and your partner can then practice wide returns into the court to your backhand corner - count how may she gets and work out whether returning DTL on this serve is the %age return!) or the inswingers into the body (and your partner can practice taking the ball early, before she gets jammed). That should work for you, in terms of serving practice - also, you know that anything she gets down the line will be put away by your doubles partner, so her winners are of no concern to you in terms of destroying your serving confidence or game for doubles (actually, in doubles she'd fall into the trap of putting her return to your partner, which would count as a "good serve" for your team).

If you want to be "nice" to her by serving into her normal hitting zone, you know where the ball is going to go, so you can practice running wide to your backhand and playing either a high lob or a cross-court backhand. Either of those shots are what you'd play back if you were playing singles - the main difference being whether she'd approach the net after the DTL return or not (if she did, then she'd volley away a deep backhand, so you'd have to play a short angled one). More importantly, you'd also play either shot in doubles, if your partner crosses or gets lobbed at the net (here, if you went cross-court you'd only go for the more difficult short angled cross-court dipper, as anything higher would be volleyed away), so that's solid practice for your doubles also. From your point of view, you can be quite aggressive with your lobs or cross-courts - because in doubles when you get forced to cover behind your partner your opponents have the advantage, so you have to play a good lob or cross to get back in the point. And every time you nail it, you make the point to your practice partner that her DTL shot "into the open space" is not good enough.

As for the smashes, the doubles practice for you is to make them high and deep - so the person at the net has to move back and hit them from behind the service line (and if she objects, you can ask her whether she expects all her smashes in a match to be "sitters"). The idea is that she then has to learn to ease on the power and actually place them into the open court. In turn, that gives you the chance to get to her smash. You can keep the practice going by playing another deep high lob, or you can simply take a free shot and go for a pass. The latter is also good doubles practice, in terms of moving from defence to attack quickly if you get an opening, and every time you make it you also send the message "must place the smash better".

 

[UnforcedError]

when practicing, I hit the ball away from my "practice" partner. This way, I am sure to not get any balls hit back at me. :roll:

Yes me too and believe me it works, I never lose anymore because no one will play tennis with me. If you really want people to get the message fast just start sending the ball over the back fence.

 

[Off The Wall]

It sounds like your practice partner has a recording in her head..."I am hitting the ball to my opponent. I am hitting the ball to my opponent..."

As long as you are aiming your shots to a spot on the court, you are learning to control the ball. That control can be expanded to other areas.

In short, tell her she needs to practice with a ball machine.

 

[Mahboob Khan]

Cindy: I am glad to see your post.

Remember, few years back you had problem that you used to hit your butt with your BH follow-through? I am sure that's solved now! LOL.

Tennis is like an onion which has multiple layers. You keep on peeling off and you find newer and newer layer.

In tennis you have technique (training of the known), and you have tactics (training of the unknown). Without training of the known, you cannot train unknown. Technique is achieved through:

-- when you hit against the basket to assure certain flow of balls to groove your shots (technique)

-- You hit live ball against a partner, cross court, down the line, etc. Basically, cooperation will lead to competition (technique).

-- You decide, "Lets cooperate for six balls, and then play out the point". In this, you are training both technique and tactics (training of the known and unknown). Even the Pros do that.

-- For example, you say, "let's keep the rally cross-court but on an easier ball change direction and hit down the line and play out the point". Again, from cooperation you go to competition.

-- And you play points (training of the unknown or tactics).

In order to develop as an all rounder, all these things are essential.

One way to convince that girl is to beat her in a practice match so that she will know that your way of training is good.

You are right Cindy, your friend is wrong.

Show her my this post. Maybe she will be convinced.

If she does not mend her ways, say goodbye to her.

If a player does not do the right things, I do not keep such a player in my program.

Cheers,

Mahboob Khan

 

[firstblud]

your friend is detrimental to the improvement of your overall game. find another person to hit with if possible. good luck!

 

[GuyClinch]

Is this the same partner with the wimpy serve? I think actually people are being too charitable. She probably can't hit the ball back to the person - reliably anyway so she claims its bad form so her suckitude is not revealed to the world.

Pete

 

[Solat]

tennis is about hitting in one more ball than your opponent, tell her that to be the best player you could be you should be able to win by hitting directly at your opponent and still be too good for them

 

[Cindysphinx]

Is this the same partner with the wimpy serve? I think actually people are being too charitable. She probably can't hit the ball back to the person - reliably anyway so she claims its bad form so her suckitude is not revealed to the world.

Pete

Ha! No, different person.

Maybe I should create a composite character of all of my different partners.

Let's see. She camps in no man's land, has a weak serve, is painfully slow, won't hit a ball to me in practice, won't poach, won't run for lobs and is in her first trimester.

I lose a lot of matches.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Manoob,

You will be pleased to hear I am no longer thwacking my butt with my racket on my 2HBH.

Alas, I am now sometimes thwacking my left butt cheeck with the racket on my FH. It is alarming, I can assure you. I am troubleshooting the problem and I think I am failing to get my LH out of the way and am crossing my arms on some shots.

I hope that's the problem because the cure is simple.

 

[Mahboob Khan]

On the forehand, finish your follow-through above the left shoulder! No need to hit the left shoulder. Finishing above the left shoulder will also further improve your forehand.

I hope you like my advice on your question on this thread.

 

[Mahboob Khan]

O, by the way, my name is MAHBOOB KHAN. You can call me Mahboob.

 

[Mahboob Khan]

On the forehand, let the left arm push the racket back and up and cause upper body to turn, then in the forward swing let your right shoulder-arm drive-out the left shoulder-arm (so that arms will not cross each other). Crossing of the arms means that you are squeezing yourself like a lemon!

 

[Cindysphinx]

O, by the way, my name is MAHBOOB KHAN. You can call me Mahboob.

Whoops!! My eyes are failing. And my fingers also. Sorry, Mahboob.

And yes, I liked your advice very much. I would have said so, but I had to dash out the door for more tennis!

Cindy -- who hit her forehand very poorly today

 

[Mahboob Khan]

Come on. Your eyes and fingers are failing! What's your age (if you do not mind).

 

[Cindysphinx]

Come on. Your eyes and fingers are failing! What's your age (if you do not mind).

Older than you!

Heycal can tell ya.

 

[Mick]

i have a solution: in practice, hit 25 mph balls to your partner. in match play, hit 50 mph balls to your opponent

the problem i have is my hitting partner, she would hit 75 mph balls to me in practice :shock:

 

[Mikael]

IMO the main problem with the way most players practise is not that they hit to their partner, it's that they just hit down the middle too much. In a match, hitting straight to the middle of the court isn't useful except in a few situations, usually you're either trying to go crosscourt or down the line... Simple fix, without having to hit away from your partner: just hit crosscourt FHs/BHs more often, or do the infamous "8" drill (one player goes crosscourt, the other one DTL). Hitting straight down the middle should really just be used as a warm-up/way to experiment with technical changes.

 

[Mahboob Khan]

Older than you!

Heycal can tell ya.

I am 59 years old young man!

 

[naylor]

IMO the main problem with the way most players practise is ... that they just hit down the middle too much. In a match, hitting straight to the middle of the court isn't useful except in a few situations... Hitting straight down the middle should really just be used as a warm-up/way to experiment with technical changes.

Agreed, when I practice with my coach we start with 6 shots down the middle (to groove hitting to a good length) and then it's free-for-all, which usually means cross-courts with the odd down-the-line to change direction. We often apply the rule that if a ball strays down-the-middle, unless it's pretty much plum on the baseline it losses the point immediately - or alternatively, that the receiver of such "loose" ball cannot return an easy ball to resume cross-courting, but has to play a forcing shot to a corner (usually, running around for an inside-out or inside-in forehand).

 

[Mikey Fresh]

i ocasionaly will throw in a strong ball and mabey mix in some short ones just to see how they handle those but it is generaly rally balls. my coach told me to be warm and use the warm up to read your player and find a rythem

 

[Blake0]

It sorta depends on what you're practicing on..unless you're practicing playing out points or practicing putting away balls or moving you're opponenet around..but if you're working on consistency..you would aim more closer to them and not trying to paint the lines. It all depends on what you're trying to accomplish.