Elbow Bend on serve - Advice?

[Dartagnan64]

So due to shoulder surgery in my youth (where my surgeon told me to take up golf as I'd never throw overhand again), my serve has always been the weakest part of my game. Just bunted in serves most of my adult 2.5-3.0 life. Then when I joined a tennis club I tried to improve it but bouts of tennis elbow, cervical radiculopathy and golfer's elbow have tended to de-rail any sustained efforts.

My arm is feeling pretty good these days and I'm back trying to help my serve by getting more shoulder involved. I recognize that I'll never have a big racket drop as my arm is just too restricted by the surgery to externally rotate enough. But I'd still like to get a bit better. So I'm posting some videos from Old Serve in 2016 with what I'm currently doing.

I'm reasonably pleased with the start of the takeback but I notice that when i get the racket up around my head, there's too little elbow bend. I know I bend my elbow shadow swinging but it's not incorporated into the actual serve. Any tips on forcing my arm to bend the elbow more?
I also notice a bit of waiter traying at the top as well, but I think getting more elbow bend and racket drop might help that. Any other tips appreciated.

Old serve 2016

New Serve from behind

New Serve from the side

 

[J011yroger]

Bookmarked.

I'll look when I get a chance because you seem like a respectful, intelligent human who contributes to the community.

J

 

[Slowtwitcher]

Bookmarked.

I'll look when I get a chance because you seem like a respectful, intelligent human who contributes to the community.

J

Looks like @J011yroger's account got hacked!

 

[Slowtwitcher]

So due to shoulder surgery in my youth (where my surgeon told me to take up golf as I'd never throw overhand again), my serve has always been the weakest part of my game. Just bunted in serves most of my adult 2.5-3.0 life. Then when I joined a tennis club I tried to improve it but bouts of tennis elbow, cervical radiculopathy and golfer's elbow have tended to de-rail any sustained efforts.

My arm is feeling pretty good these days and I'm back trying to help my serve by getting more shoulder involved. I recognize that I'll never have a big racket drop as my arm is just too restricted by the surgery to externally rotate enough. But I'd still like to get a bit better. So I'm posting some videos from Old Serve in 2016 with what I'm currently doing.

I'm reasonably pleased with the start of the takeback but I notice that when i get the racket up around my head, there's too little elbow bend. I know I bend my elbow shadow swinging but it's not incorporated into the actual serve. Any tips on forcing my arm to bend the elbow more?
I also notice a bit of waiter traying at the top as well, but I think getting more elbow bend and racket drop might help that. Any other tips appreciated.

Old serve 2016

New Serve from behind

New Serve from the side

Have you see the Tomasz video where he uses a bag filled with a few tennis balls to teach serve motion? That might help you.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Have you see the Tomasz video where he uses a bag filled with a few tennis balls to teach serve motion? That might help you.

You mean the sock drill? Yes I've done a lot of these types of drills. As I said, I can shadow swing a good motion. My real world application is an issue. Of course this is the first video I've done in a while, so now that I see the problem I can try to focus on it. Maybe that's all I need.

But you can see from the old serve that the lack of elbow bend is a long standing bad habit and those are the hardest to break.

 

[Slowtwitcher]

You mean the sock drill? Yes I've done a lot of these types of drills. As I said, I can shadow swing a good motion.

Do you have video of that? Or done it next to a mirror?

 

[J011yroger]

Wow,

You are so close.

The main reason for the difference between the shadow swing and the actual serve is that your toss is WAY too far to your right and your grip is shifted a touch towards eastern FH. You want to be making contact with the ball inside of the hitting shoulder.

The grip and toss things go hand in hand, so the first thing to do is grip continental and move the toss left and re-video.

W/R/T the elbow bend, you are going to want your elbow bent 90 degrees with your palm down before you start the right to left hand movement that will get you into the trophy position. You can do the water bottle drill for this, or just get on a ball throwing regimen. Remember you want to see the back of your hand if you look back at any point before you push with your legs.

Understand that the entire swing goes left to right more than back to front, so you are swinging up and to the right, more than forward. Right to left into the drop, then swing left to right over your head to the ball. Throw your hand to the right side of the ball.

J

 

[Happi]

I agree with Jollys points above about toss and grip.

One thing you could do is the Jeff Salzenstein half or 3/4 serve drill, that helped me a lot when I was trying to change my service motion.

So do the drill, not as a shadow drill, but with a ball.

Cheers, H

 

[Dartagnan64]

I agree with Jollys points above about toss and grip.

One thing you could do is the Jeff Salzenstein half or 3/4 serve drill, that helped me a lot when I was trying to change my service motion.

So do the drill, not as a shadow drill, but with a ball.

Cheers, H

that drill is how I started the journey. I could go back to it more but I spent most of the summer just serving from that position. Then I pinched a nerve and got de-railed again.
Now I’m trying to incorporate the full motion.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Wow,

You are so close.

W/R/T the elbow bend, you are going to want your elbow bent 90 degrees with your palm down before you start the right to left hand movement that will get you into the trophy position. You can do the water bottle drill for this, or just get on a ball throwing regimen. Remember you want to see the back of your hand if you look back at any point before you push with your legs.

J

I’m trying a birthday hat drill to try to get that elbow bend and right to left motion down. If I can knock the hat off my head on take back it seems to encourage that motion.

And I’ll work on a more leftward toss if my neck will tolerate it. Thanks Jolly!

 

[Curious]

That elbow not bending at all amazes me. Did I miss something about an injury that restricts your ROM in the elbow?
If not, does the elbow bend naturally when you throw a tennis ball? Because it should.

 

[Dartagnan64]

That elbow not bending at all amazes me. Did I miss something about an injury that restricts your ROM in the elbow?
If not, does the elbow bend naturally when you throw a tennis ball? Because it should.

The injury and surgery is to the shoulder. I haven't thrown anything overhead with force since I was 20. So probably that mechanic has been screwed up for ages.

But I think I'm focusing so much on the ball and the stretch through the shoulder, I'm just ignoring the elbow during the live bullet drill. Problem when you have few things that aren't yet ingrained into subconscious, it's hard to concentrate on everything.

 

[Curious]

The injury and surgery is to the shoulder. I haven't thrown anything overhead with force since I was 20. So probably that mechanic has been screwed up for ages.

But I think I'm focusing so much on the ball and the stretch through the shoulder, I'm just ignoring the elbow during the live bullet drill. Problem when you have few things that aren't yet ingrained into subconscious, it's hard to concentrate on everything.

So you bend your elbow while throwing a tennis ball or not?

 

[Dartagnan64]

So you bend your elbow while throwing a tennis ball or not?

Yes. Just went down to the garage and checked.

 

[Curious]

Yes. Just went down to the garage and checked.

Do the same on the serve then.
Anyway, forget about the 90 degree angle, who calculates angles while serving?!
A useful tip is get the hand close to your right ear. Start the swing from there. It works. At the moment your hand is 3 ft from your ear.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Do the same on the serve then.
Anyway, forget about the 90 degree angle, who calculates angles while serving?!
A useful tip is get the hand close to your right ear. Start the swing from there. It works. At the moment your hand is 3 ft from your ear.

having the hand near the ear feels more comfortable with a ball than with a racket lol. But I'm working on it. Thanks.

 

[Curious]

having the hand near the ear feels more comfortable with a ball than with a racket lol. But I'm working on it. Thanks.

I guess it’s normal to feel a little weird for some time as yours is the exact opposite.

 

[Keendog]

Do the same on the serve then.
Anyway, forget about the 90 degree angle, who calculates angles while serving?!
A useful tip is get the hand close to your right ear. Start the swing from there. It works. At the moment your hand is 3 ft from your ear.

Great now Curious has been hacked.

 

[Curious]

Speaking of no elbow bend serve, this is a friend of mine.

 

[Bagumbawalla]

First of all, your serve, as is, is not completely awful considering your injury.
Every time I started with some advice, I noticed someone had already made the same point.
My suggestion, then, is to get some physical therapy- possibly from a sports professional and that
might include massage, stretching, and strengthening work. Even just a bit more flexibility might be what
you need to do the trick.

 

[Colin52]

Are you gripping too tight? Racket should be very loose in the hand, when I serve I have the butt cap/end of racket in the middle of the palm

 

[Dartagnan64]

First of all, your serve, as is, is not completely awful considering your injury.
Every time I started with some advice, I noticed someone had already made the same point.
My suggestion, then, is to get some physical therapy- possibly from a sports professional and that
might include massage, stretching, and strengthening work. Even just a bit more flexibility might be what
you need to do the trick.

Done lots of physio. The shoulder is what it is. There’s a big old staple intentionally stuck in there to resist external rotation. Because my glenohumeral joint is too shallow, too much external rotation pops it out of joint. So they tightened it all up.

 

[Curious]

Done lots of physio. The shoulder is what it is. There’s a big old staple intentionally stuck in there to resist external rotation. Because my glenohumeral joint is too shallow, too much external rotation pops it out of joint. So they tightened it all up.

How much is your external rotation restricted now?
I think most people can get to 90 degrees. Some have much more than that ( Djoker, Roddick).
What’s yours?

https://imgur.com/a/Zwa9FR3

 

[Deleted member 765152]

If that is the most your elbow can bend, then I think you will be better off using spin and placement rather than power to improve your serving.
On the deuce side, you can slice out wide or to the T with the same toss. This serve is not easy to return esp. in doubles.
On the ad side, you can slice to the T and hit reverse slice (screwball) wide out to the BH.

I know a 4.0/4.5 who serves like this without much power. But due to the low slice spin and placement, it is not easy to attack.
At 40+ yo, we are not going to consistently blast opponents off the court with power and/or insane kick anyway.

 

[socallefty]

Op, are you able to bend your elbow on groundstrokes or do you have unconventional technique there too because of your shoulder issue? Just curious.

 

[Chas Tennis]

If you have had surgery and the surgeon warned you about overhead throwing, there is no way to know what you can and can't safely do.

 

[Dragy]

@Dartagnan64 I believe no one but you can know/explore how your shoulder is limited today for overhand throwing and serving. That’s your decision about how far you wanna go down this route, and what are the risks.

In addition to what folks wrote above, it seems to me you are really tight with your swing when ball is in play. Your grip looks hard, your arm looks locked. And this perfectly fits to what you say about shadow swinging - there you are likely more fluid, which is typical.

I’d suggest lots of throwing practice - no way around, sorry. Don’t do it powerfully - just moderate effort, but with full body engagement. No distance goals - just repetition.

I’d then suggest to hit many balls into the back fence from like 5m distance. Focusing on throwing motion you keep from throwing practice, and fluidly smacking the ball - not trying to send it to some particular spot or direction.

Another good drill is to combine shadow swinging with ball hitting, trying to keep motion the same. You can do a continuous multi-swing (8-shape) sequence, and release the ball for 3rd swing. If the toss make you swing differently - alter the toss, learn to place it into your typical (shadow) swing instead of hitting the ball where you've tossed it.

I’m pretty sure you know all this stuff actually. Now having yourself filmed you can be aware and apply some tweaks, cues and drills to gradually develop what you feel like developing. Some pointers from the side are good though as we sometimes tend to fixate on something and miss the key - well at least I do...

 

[ByeByePoly]

Wow,

You are so close.

The main reason for the difference between the shadow swing and the actual serve is that your toss is WAY too far to your right and your grip is shifted a touch towards eastern FH. You want to be making contact with the ball inside of the hitting shoulder.

The grip and toss things go hand in hand, so the first thing to do is grip continental and move the toss left and re-video.

W/R/T the elbow bend, you are going to want your elbow bent 90 degrees with your palm down before you start the right to left hand movement that will get you into the trophy position. You can do the water bottle drill for this, or just get on a ball throwing regimen. Remember you want to see the back of your hand if you look back at any point before you push with your legs.

Understand that the entire swing goes left to right more than back to front, so you are swinging up and to the right, more than forward. Right to left into the drop, then swing left to right over your head to the ball. Throw your hand to the right side of the ball.

J

Could @Dartagnan64 benefit from more torso/shoulder rotation? I assume the shoulder rom is injury limited, but not shoulder rotation.

 

[J011yroger]

Could @Dartagnan64 benefit from more torso/shoulder rotation? I assume the shoulder rom is injury limited, but not shoulder rotation.

It's only good to turn as much as you can un-turn in time. At some point coiling becomes facing the wrong way.

Having said that, he could probably use more, but first the hand path needs to be fixed otherwise you are just adding power to something facing the wrong way.

J

 

[ByeByePoly]

It's only good to turn as much as you can un-turn in time. At some point coiling becomes facing the wrong way.

Having said that, he could probably use more, but first the hand path needs to be fixed otherwise you are just adding power to something facing the wrong way.

J

 

[ByeByePoly]

It's only good to turn as much as you can un-turn in time. At some point coiling becomes facing the wrong way.

Having said that, he could probably use more, but first the hand path needs to be fixed otherwise you are just adding power to something facing the wrong way.

J

I was also thinking in terms of consistency/accuracy ... not just pace. Seems less effort for same pace is easier to repeat ... and accuracy a must for slower paced serves. On groundstrokes my experience of adding more turn was almost a freebie ... not a painful learning curve/time like changing grips. That said ... changing anything on the serve is probably not trivial ... timing is a biaaaaatch.

 

[Mountain Ghost]

Practice starting from a racquet drop position ... with a full 90° elbow bend ... stay sideways ... and see if your shoulder issue gets in the way.

~ MG

 

[Dartagnan64]

How much is your external rotation restricted now?
I think most people can get to 90 degrees. Some have much more than that ( Djoker, Roddick).
What’s yours?

https://imgur.com/a/Zwa9FR3

I can get just to 90 degrees. My Left arm can get to 120.

If that is the most your elbow can bend, then I think you will be better off using spin and placement rather than power to improve your serving.

Most assuredly but I'd still like to get the basic motion down to incorporate more natural throwing motion using the shoulder so I don't over use the elbow. I'm not trying to overpower anyone. Just a more fluid kinetic chain.

Op, are you able to bend your elbow on groundstrokes or do you have unconventional technique there too because of your shoulder issue? Just curious.

I'm fine with any swing below shoulder level. And the issue is not restriction of elbow bend but rather I'm not doing it. I can bend my elbow on the service motion shadow swinging. It's just for some reason I'm not on the real thing.

If you have had surgery and the surgeon warned you about overhead throwing, there is no way to know what you can and can't safely do.

It's not so much he warned me from doing them, but more he warned me I'd struggle doing them because most throwing sports require a reasonable amount of external rotation. I was only told not to throw for 6 months.

I’d then suggest to hit many balls into the back fence from like 5m distance. Focusing on throwing motion you keep from throwing practice, and fluidly smacking the ball - not trying to send it to some particular spot or direction.

Another good drill is to combine shadow swinging with ball hitting, trying to keep motion the same. You can do a continuous multi-swing (8-shape) sequence, and release the ball for 3rd swing. If the toss make you swing differently - alter the toss, learn to place it into your typical (shadow) swing instead of hitting the ball where you've tossed it.

This is pretty much what I did yesterday in my parking garage. Really accentuated things on shadow swings then hit balls at the wall from 20 steps (about 60 feet) If the ball hit just before the wall I had the right distance. Didn't worry about aim. Did about 50 or so hits. Worked on a couple of Jolly's recommendations - toss more to the left, stronger conti grip, get that racket head moving right to left.

Could @Dartagnan64 benefit from more torso/shoulder rotation? I assume the shoulder rom is injury limited, but not shoulder rotation.

Probably but that's going to be a diminishing return as I age. I know from golf how much torso rotation I've lost over time.

 

[Dartagnan64]

I played some round robin singles this am with the guys. Focused on tossing more to the left. Stronger conti grip. Really focused on feeling the elbow bend. Thought with all that going on I'd serve horribly but I was surprised that I didn't double fault that much. Maybe one bad service game where I got out of rhythm.

It felt better and closer to what I should be doing but no video. Going to try to ingrain it some more this week and maybe get the wife to video.

I did get one ace where everything felt perfect. Guess i surprised my opponent. If I can get an Ace in cool weather on Har Tru, that's something. For the most part I don't think the pace was much higher but the motion feels more fluid and effortless and that's really where I'm trying to go.

Smooth motion, decent pace, high first serve percentage and directional control.

What I'm really noticing with these changes is that I don't really have to spin in a second serve. I can just do the same motion and its reproducible enough to get the second serve in if I just swing smoothly and make sure my toss is higher. People used to take my second serve from well inside the baseline and good players could attack it. With this motion they have to take it from pretty much where they take the first serve.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Much better this am. Felt smooth and rhythmic. Very few DF's in my practice sets with my wife. She noticed the improvement from Friday.
3 Aces and multiple service winners against her which is not usual on clay.

I notice most of the bad serves are really mostly bad tosses. Need to groove the toss position a little more.

Thanks to all that helped. Right now I'm going to have to rest up because my arm feels like trash with all the serving practice the last 3 days.

 

[Curious]

Much better this am. Felt smooth and rhythmic. Very few DF's in my practice sets with my wife. She noticed the improvement from Friday.
3 Aces and multiple service winners against her which is not usual on clay.

I notice most of the bad serves are really mostly bad tosses. Need to groove the toss position a little more.

Thanks to all that helped. Right now I'm going to have to rest up because my arm feels like trash with all the serving practice the last 3 days.

Ok but are you now bending the elbow or not?

 

[Dartagnan64]

Ok but are you now bending the elbow or not?

yes.

Occasionally I’ll toss too low or to the right and I can feel I’m not bending. But I’d say most serves the elbow is bending. Will need some video eventually once I feel more grooved.

 

[Curious]

yes.

Occasionally I’ll toss too low or to the right and I can feel I’m not bending. But I’d say most serves the elbow is bending. Will need some video eventually once I feel more grooved.

That’s good.
I was going to say maybe you could try changing the initial motion from start to the trophy ie shortening it so that the hand goes straight to near your ear instead of other types like a big loop towards the back or diagonal to the right side. That way the elbow will have no option but bend at trophy.

 

[Dartagnan64]

That’s good.
I was going to say maybe you could try changing the initial motion from start to the trophy ie shortening it so that the hand goes straight to near your ear instead of other types like a big loop towards the back or diagonal to the right side. That way the elbow will have no option but bend at trophy.

if I struggle again I’ll think about that. I’m liking the current rhythm with what I’m doing now. Feels like it’s flowing without hitches. It’s just a matter of making it muscle memory without relapsing.

 

[Curious]

I know nothing about baseball but this is a great video.
Even if this guy may have never played tennis, give him a racket and he will serve properly in a week!

 

[user92626]

Speaking of no elbow bend serve, this is a friend of mine.

Is that even a correct serve motion? You know more about the serve, did you help your friend? Or at least tell him the right way?

 

[ballmachineguy]

that drill is how I started the journey. I could go back to it more but I spent most of the summer just serving from that position. Then I pinched a nerve and got de-railed again.
Now I’m trying to incorporate the full motion.

What Saltzenstein was doing there could be the full motion. No need to do anything more, actually. You won’t serve any harder with a “full” motion and at least your elbow will get bent, because it is starting out that way. In the video I saw, in the initial post, there would be zero chance to ever put spin on the ball with your arm being straight.

 

[Curious]

Is that even a correct serve motion? You know more about the serve, did you help your friend? Or at least tell him the right way?

He enjoys the game a lot with his current form ( probably unchanged for 20 years) and not keen to do any work to improve his tennis.

 

[mxvb]

I would recommend not using your legs, you jump but the form of you arm in the serve is not even 'perfect' yet..

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Take this to the court with you:

 

[Dartagnan64]

I would recommend not using your legs, you jump but the form of you arm in the serve is not even 'perfect' yet..

What is funny is that I don't even think I'm using my legs. I was shocked on the video to see I was getting off the ground lol. I'm not sure I can stop that leg action since its obviously so ingrained I'm doing it without even thinking.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Well the last two days were a definitely a contrast in serve proficiency.
Monday I was awful. At least two DF's per service game. Total lack of focus. In the afternoon I went into my parking garage and just really tried to hone in on the basics including keeping my head up through contact.

Tuesday was much better. Played a couple sets with a friend and 0 DF's. He commented that my serve was smoother and more pace. Still haven't got my tosses perfect and most poor serves were toss issues. But overall a better performance. Admittedly there were definitely a few serves where the straight arm snuck back in, but old habits die hard and one can't expect to completely renovate a serve motion in a few days.

 

[GuyClinch]

My take is simple enough..

There are two ways to really encourage racquet drop. The pros like Federer will keep the racquet at ninety degrees and not drop very much down behind the head but more along the side of the body. This takes the most shoulder flexibility. amateurs and some pros drop more behind the head (its a subtle difference not huge) and the arm angle is less then 90 - like 60 or 70 degrees..

This is easier on shoulder flexibility. So I would exaggerate the cure. Try shadowing and serving with as much bend as you can - and then see if your normal serve reverts to slight more bend.

 

[Dartagnan64]

There are two ways to really encourage racquet drop.

When I see big time racquet drop I generally see strong external rotation of the shoulder. I don't think that's in my wheelhouse flexibility wise.