Federer 5 x Indians Wells vs Djokovic 5 x Rome titles

[Hitman]

While not their most successful masters as far as titles won, both have been absurdly consistent at these respective masters, the longevity has been remarkable.

Federer has 5 titles in IW, which is the joint all time record with Djokovic. But he also has another 5 finals there, including playing the last three, and five of the last six. He played his first back in 2004, his last in 2019, he has won the title three times in a row also.

Djokovic has 5 titles in Rome, and also has another 6 finals to his name. He played his first final and won his first title back in 2008, his most recent was in 2020, making it a 12 year gap between first and last title. Djokovic has also played an incredible 7 of the last 8 finals in the eternal city.

Between the two, who in your opinion was the better player at their second successful masters?

 

[Sunny014]

Better a better player at ROME is more valuable than Indian Wells if you take into account how less people have won 3+ titles there.
But of course Indian Wells is a very prestigious tournament, thats also there.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Second most successful masters? Answer: C, Nadal with 10 Rome titles

 

[pj80]

Fed's 3/5 IW titles came in the relatively weak (2004-2006) Blake, Henman and Srichaphan era...while Djoker had to contend with the Clay monster Rafa and other strong era players (Fed, Murry) for his Rome hardware///so you make a choice. I think we all know what any non objective, rational fan would pick.

 

[Kralingen]

For me Rome is why I think Djokovic’s resume > Federer’s on clay… 10 total Clay Masters (2MC-3MAD-5ROM) vs. 6 total Clay Masters (0-6MAD-0)

So in terms of being a separator, Rome.

However - Federer does extremely well at Madrid/Hamburg shows his quality on faster, dry clay.

 

[pj80]

For me Rome is why I think Djokovic’s resume > Federer’s on clay… 10 total Clay Masters (2MC-3MAD-5ROM) vs. 6 total Clay Masters (0-6MAD-0)

So in terms of being a separator, Rome.

However - Federer does extremely well at Madrid/Hamburg shows his quality on faster, dry clay.

he only won Hamburg because Rafa rarely played there. Full credit for beating him in 07, but if Rafa decided to show up more frequently there, Fed would have his Hamburg titles reduced to half(which would be his 02,04 titles)

 

[SardinesForDinner]

Federer

 

[Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil]

Federer was closer to adding more. Then again Djokovic had Nadal to contend with pretty much all the time in Rome, has two extra finals and never lost before the quarters, so I'll lean towards him.

 

[Kralingen]

he only won Hamburg because Rafa rarely played there. Full credit for beating him in 07, but if Rafa decided to show up more frequently there, Fed would have his Hamburg titles reduced to half(which would be his 02,04 titles)

I think he beat Nadal in the ‘09 final no?

Either way Fed’s clay masters showings are weirdly disappointing, it’s not like he was solely losing to Djokodal.

 

[ForehandCross]

Halle

 

[mike danny]

Federer has had some special performances at IW and I'd pick him if he won a match vs Djokovic there.

But I go with Djokicic because he still beat great versions of Fedal and even Murray.

 

[ForehandRF]

he only won Hamburg because Rafa rarely played there. Full credit for beating him in 07, but if Rafa decided to show up more frequently there, Fed would have his Hamburg titles reduced to half(which would be his 02,04 titles)

What's the point of this ? It's like saying that Nadal would have won less RG titles had he faced Borg or that Djokovic would have less AO titles had he faced Agassi or that Fed would have won less USO titles had he faced Lendl etc There is no reason to go down roads like these

 

[mike danny]

I think he beat Nadal in the ‘09 final no?

Either way Fed’s clay masters showings are weirdly disappointing, it’s not like he was solely losing to Djokodal.

Tell me about it, man. The 2003 Rome final and the 2014 MC final were both disappointing from him. Would have completed the set if he'd won those 2 matches.

 

[beard]

Second most successful masters? Answer: C, Nadal with 10 Rome titles

Please, stop proving Nadal clay skewed results...

 

[MichaelNadal]

Please, stop proving Nadal clay skewed results...

Always gotta try to discount it bc it's so epic

 

[pj80]

What's the point of this ? It's like saying that Nadal would have won less RG titles had he faced Borg or that Djokovic would have less AO titles had he faced Agassi or that Fed would have won less USO titles had he face Lendl etc There is no reason to go down roads like these

yeah, I guess you got a point...but why did Rafa shun Hamburg? it was on Clay, no?

 

[beard]

On topic... Novak, off course, he got those with Nadal hovering around... Plus, Fed won 0 which further proves how hard it is to win Rome...

 

[ForehandRF]

Federer has had some special performances at IW and I'd pick him if he won a match vs Djokovic there.

But I go with Djokicic because he still beat great versions of Fedal and even Murray.

That 2014 match at least was a tough one

 

[mike danny]

That 2014 match at least was a tough one

It was so winnable too.

 

[ForehandRF]

yeah, I guess you got a point...but why did Rafa shun Hamburg? it was on Clay, no?

I think he didn't liked the conditions there plus he had some marathon matches in Rome in 2005-2006 and Hamburg was right after

 

[beard]

Always gotta try to discount it bc it's so epic

It really is, but winning 26/36 masters on clay (72.22%), while only 3/6 tournaments are on clay (33.33%) is EPIC skew... Sorry, but I must mention that fact each time you use clay to prove something... I mean, I agree Nadal is clay goat...

 

[ForehandRF]

That 2014 match at least was a tough one

Losing winnable matches vs Novak, a Fedr trademark

 

[MichaelNadal]

It really is, but winning 26/36 masters on clay (72.22%), while only 3/6 tournaments are on clay (33.33%) is EPIC skew... Sorry, but I must mention that fact each time you use clay to prove something... I mean, I agree Nadal is clay goat...

Exactly, but let's stop acting like that's something easy, when in fact, what he's done on clay is the most impressive feat in tennis history. You just said yourself how hard it is to win Rome, Nadal has 10 times, that's ridiculous every record Djokovic has is capable of being broken. 14 FO's will NEVER happen.

 

[daphne]

I have to ask Srdjan for an honest opinion.

 

[El_Yotamo]

I take Djokovic at Rome bc typically he's more of a HC player and he had some really impressive wins there against Nadal. Federer at IW is also super impressive btw, just not to the same extent

Btw speaking of 5 titles at a Master's event on your least successful surface, Nadal's 5 titles in Canada are also extremely impressive

 

[MichaelNadal]

I take Djokovic at Rome bc typically he's more of a HC player and he had some really impressive wins there against Nadal. Federer at IW is also super impressive btw, just not to the same extent

Btw speaking of 5 titles at a Master's event on your least successful surface, Nadal's 5 titles in Canada are also super impressive

Especially 2018. And in an epic kit

 

[El_Yotamo]

Especially 2018. And in an epic kit

To me 2019 was actually the most impressive, it was the fastest master's event of the year and he just crushed it

 

[beard]

Exactly, but let's stop acting like that's something easy, when in fact, what he's done on clay is the most impressive feat in tennis history. You just said yourself how hard it is to win Rome, Nadal has 10 times, that's ridiculous every record Djokovic has is capable of being broken. 14 FO's will NEVER happen.

Never say never, you can't know, never is a long time...
If one got 13, why the hell, someone couldn't get 14, ridiculous to think it's impossible...

 

[Nadalgaenger]

At least one of Nole’s Rome titles went through Nadal. Fed never beat Nole at IW, did he?

 

[beard]

I take Djokovic at Rome bc typically he's more of a HC player and he had some really impressive wins there against Nadal. Federer at IW is also super impressive btw, just not to the same extent

Btw speaking of 5 titles at a Master's event on your least successful surface, Nadal's 5 titles in Canada are also extremely impressive

Nadal Canada is impressive, no doubt, but I will explain reason... Federer and Novak won 14 Wimbledon titles combined. At that moment they were in best form, and many times skipped next tournament, which is Canada, or played lightly...

 

[Hitman]

I take Djokovic at Rome bc typically he's more of a HC player and he had some really impressive wins there against Nadal. Federer at IW is also super impressive btw, just not to the same extent

Btw speaking of 5 titles at a Master's event on your least successful surface, Nadal's 5 titles in Canada are also extremely impressive

So who comes out on top, on their worst surfaces?

Djokovic with 10 finals in Rome, or Nadal with 5 finals in Canada?

 

[Hitman]

At least one of Nole’s Rome titles went through Nadal. Fed never beat Nole at IW, did he?

Djokovic went through Nadal twice for Rome titles, 2011 and 2014, he also has a win in 2016.

Federer has zero wins against Djokovic in IW.

 

[beard]

At least one of Nole’s Rome titles went through Nadal. Fed never beat Nole at IW, did he?

Actually, Novak beat Rafa 3 times in Rome... And he lost 6 times to Rafa, 4 finals... Can you imagine how successful Novak would be without clay goat? He is just impressive in Rome, he likes to play in Italy, and I hope he will get at least one WTF in next years...

 

[MichaelNadal]

Nadal Canada is impressive, no doubt, but I will explain reason... Federer and Novak won 14 Wimbledon titles combined. At that moment they were in best form, and many times skipped next tournament, which is Canada, or played lightly...

Always some kind of reason Nadal ever did anything
So the titles Djokovic won in Rome were due to Nadal already having a long clay season

 

[beard]

Always some kind of reason Nadal ever did anything

Can you denies what I said? I accept any good argument...

 

[beard]

So who comes out on top, on their worst surfaces?

Djokovic with 10 finals in Rome, or Nadal with 5 finals in Canada?

Novak won 10 masters at his worst surface... Nadal won also 10... There are double more opportunities to win hard court masters...

 

[MichaelNadal]

Can you denies what I said? I accept any good argument...

There's a huge break between Wimbledon and Canada man, lol

 

[Hitman]

Federer had a 40-15 CP moment with Del Potro in IW 2018 if I recall correctly. He was a point away from a record breaking 6th title.

Interestingly Del Potro won both of his big titles, USO 2009 and IW 2018 by beating Federer.

Thiem also won his only masters title by beating Federer at IW.

Zverev won his first masters by beating Djokovic in the final of Rome. Zed has also won three of his 6 big titles, including WTF 2018 and Olypmics by beating Novak.

 

[Hitman]

Novak won 10 masters at his worst surface... Nadal won also 10... There are double more opportunities to win hard court masters...

So, what you are saying is that Novak is the more versatile player of the two?

You do know, Nadal has skipped or missed for one reason or another 25 HC masters series events since 2008, but hasn't skipped a clay masters since Hamburg 2006. So that probably impacts his numbers.

 

[Tennis_Freak99]

2011 Rome was the most epic masters run

Kubot
Wawarinka
Soderling
Murray
Nadal

 

[nolefam_2024]

Djokovic is king of slow hard courts. AO IW and Miami his record vs Federer Nadal and Murray combined is insane. Probably didn't lose more than 3/4 matches combined and won 20. Federer never beat such guy on his way to 5 titles here.

Djokovic beat Nadal 2 times in his 5 titles in Rome.

 

[Hitman]

Can you denies what I said? I accept any good argument...

The story with Fed was, he did skip it in 05, and focused on Cincinnati. In 2008 he had just lost Wimbledon, and still mentally reeling, losing first round to Simon. In 2013, Federer stupidly decided to play the season with a back he injured in IW that year. He skipped 2018 and 2019, because in the 2017 final he hurt his back, which cost him a shot at Cincy and USO, so he opted to remove the event from his schedule.

Djokovic actually has four titles in Canada, and until Nadal in 2018, had more wins there than him. Plus, Nadal and Djokovic have only played twice in Canada, and it is 1-1, both matches took place in Montreal, Novak straight set him in 2007, Rafa edged out a final set tie break in 2013. Novak lost early in 2018 to Tsitsipas, but this was after the high of winning Wimbledon 2018. He also skipped the 2019 edition to focus on defending his Cincinnati title.

Nadal beat Agassi in 05 final, who was playing his last good run of his career that summer, Keifer in 08, Raonic in 13 after beating Djokovic in semis, Tsitsipas in 18 and Medvedev in 19.

 

[beard]

There's a huge break between Wimbledon and Canada man, lol

Lol, no...
Even with Olympics this year, it's less than a month...

And pause is not for nothing, after two slams back to back, top players don't show at 100%, because of tiredness, and trying to play in form later, for USO

Sorry, the best hard court players, who are best on grass too, just don't care that much about Canada... It's in between their main goals...
Canada is the second-worst hard court masters for Novak, and second worst for Federer...

What is the h2h Nadal to Novak and Federer in Canada:
1:1 combined...Lol
That shows how Nadal won those titles, and how Fedovic doesn't care to play 100% or don't bother to show up at all...
Just compare his Canada opponents in final (Agassi, Kiefer, Rao, Tsi, Med), to other hardcourt masters he had multiple finals - IW (Novak, Novak, Andy, Delpo, 1W, 3L), Mia (Dav, Novak, Nova, Roger, Roger, 5L!)

See the difference now?
Off course, Nadal won fair but, let's give some context...

 

[MichaelNadal]

Lol, no...
Even with Olympics this year, it's less than a month...

And pause is not for nothing, after two slams back to back, top players don't show at 100%, because of tiredness, and trying to play in form later, for USO

Sorry, the best hard court players, who are best on grass too, just don't care that much about Canada... It's in between their main goals...
Canada is the second-worst hard court masters for Novak, and second worst for Federer...

What is the h2h Nadal to Novak and Federer in Canada:
1:1 combined...Lol
That shows how Nadal won those titles, and how Fedovic doesn't care to play 100% or don't bother to show up at all...
Just compare his Canada opponents in final (Agassi, Kiefer, Rao, Tsi, Med), to other hardcourt masters he had multiple finals - IW (Novak, Novak, Andy, Delpo, 1W, 3L), Mia (Dav, Novak, Nova, Roger, Roger, 5L!)

See the difference now?
Off course, Nadal won fair but, let's give some context...

4-3 bestie
"HC GOAT" with 3 US Open titles

 

[beard]

@Hitman
I typed my post before reading yours. You explained very good...

 

[beard]

4-3 bestie
"HC GOAT" with 3 US Open titles

Lol, I didn't write this for you, but for the sake of truth...
I know you are too biased to handle the truth...

 

[ND-13]

Both are incredibly tough masters, the two toughest of the year.

One for the heat and the 6 rounds, the second coming the week straight after Madrid

 

[Deleted member 748597]

Rome is an extremely important tournament. All ATGs won it.

 

[Third Serve]

Going with Djokovic here because of his insane consistency at the event as well as having Nadal to contend with for most of them (2008 and 2020 were uber-weak though).

 

[Biotic]

Going with Djokovic here because of his insane consistency at the event as well as having Nadal to contend with for most of them (2008 and 2020 were uber-weak though).

You have to consider that Djoko lost 3 finals (2016, 2019, 2021) mostly out of fatigue following a tough QF + SF sequence:

2016: Nadal and Nishikori
2019: Delpo and Schwartzman (5.5 hours)
2021: Tsitsipas and Sonego (1.5 match = 4 hours day before the final).

Obviously, he could've lost any of those even at 100%, just saying that he had way more uber-tough than uber-weak draws as a contender since 2008.