Federer's Top 10 Matches on Grass

[Steve0904]

It's overrated when talking purely in terms of level of play, when you consider the timing of it yes it was hugely impressive.

So what is "pure" level of play? I assume level of play from the baseline. But I could say "level of play" includes the serve does it not? It's a shot that's on and off like any other. If you account for that it's not overrated by any measure. I don't see the need in separating them. Sounds like nitpicking to me.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

But Peak Djokovic lost at the FO in 2011. IIRC, he was leading in the first and fourth set, but Federer was too good when it mattered most. It's a different story, but the outcome was sort of similar.

It's a totally different story because Djokovic did NOT make bad errors when he was ahead in that match - Federer was clutch in breaking when Djokovic went up in the first set with some good rally stuff, then saving double set point on serve at *4-5 with confident serving before ultimately clinching the TB, and even cluthcer when he played four top notch points to break when Djokovic served for the fourth set. Djokovic was certainly a bit off for parts of the match, but that generally happened when they were even. When Djokovic went up in 1st and 4th sets, Federer did not wait for him to make errors, but fought and broke back with quality play of his own. It's not like Djokovic was on the verge of winning and let Federer back into it with unforced errors.

I'd expect something similar to happen if peak Djokovic played AO 2005 Safin (on RA). Safin probably wins in 5.

I don't know, Federer really should have won in 4. Safin was superb at his best, but so was Djokovic (obviously). I don't think a hypothetical like this is worth discussion, it's just in the mind.

 

[NatF]

So what is "pure" level of play? I assume level of play from the baseline. But I could say "level of play" includes the serve does it not? It's a shot that's on and off like any other. If you account for that it's not overrated by any measure. I don't see the need in separating them. Sounds like nitpicking to me.

I'm not discriminating against the serve man, it's the most important shot but there are numerous matches where Federer was better off the return, ground, moved better and still served really well. It's the net result that matters to me, I think Federer in absolute top form would have dropped a couple less games. May not sound like a lot but it's the difference between a very competitive three set match and a routine one.

 

[Steve0904]

I'm not discriminating against the serve man, it's the most important shot but there are numerous matches where Federer was better off the return, ground, moved better and still served really well. It's the net result that matters to me, I think Federer in absolute top form would have dropped a couple less games. May not sound like a lot but it's the difference between a very competitive three set match and a routine one.

I get you. I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here, but all I'm really saying is that there's no real reason some of Federer's most recent great matches on grass shouldn't be on a top 10 list even though he ran faster and jumped higher at his peak, or in his prime or whatever the heck we're calling it these days. For example, I wouldn't even give a thought to putting any of Federer's matches from 07 or 08 over the 2015 SF even though he probably played better from the ground against Safin in 08 or Ferrero in 07.

And this might sound strange, but I never felt the 2015 match was in any way competitive despite the tight sets. Once it became obvious that Murray was quite clueless as to how to deal with Federer that day the result was NID. That's the way I felt when I was watching that match anyway.

 

[NatF]

I get you. I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here, but all I'm really saying is that there's no real reason some of Federer's most recent great matches on grass shouldn't be on a top 10 list even though he ran faster and jumped higher at his peak, or in his prime or whatever the heck we're calling it these days.

And this might sound strange, but I never felt the 2015 match was in any way competitive despite the tight sets. Once it became obvious that Murray was quite clueless as to how to deal with Federer that day the result was NID. That's the way I felt when I was watching that match anyway.

Fair enough, I'm not one of those people that think Federer can never play matches as an oldie that matches up to what he did in 2004-2007 for me it's just how I view the quality of his play. I felt like Murray was getting into the rallies with Federer better than I would expect from Federer at his absolute best.

 

[Zara]

And this might sound strange, but I never felt the 2015 match was in any way competitive despite the tight sets. Once it became obvious that Murray was quite clueless as to how to deal with Federer that day the result was NID. That's the way I felt when I was watching that match anyway.

Sorry I am just reading the last couple of posts but which match are you referring to here?

 

[Steve0904]

Sorry I am just reading the last couple of posts but which match are you referring to here?

Wimby SF against Murray.

 

[Zara]

Wimby SF against Murray.

Yes but that was sub-par Andy still making a comeback after the surgery. After that match, I knew Federer was going to lose to Djokovic so it was a quite the treat to see the final.

 

[Steve0904]

Yes but that was sub-par Andy still making a comeback after the surgery. After that match, I knew Federer was going to lose to Djokovic so it was a quite the treat to see the final.

Mixing up 2015 and 2014 here, Zara?

Yes, a brilliant display by Djokovic.

 

[Zara]

Mixing up 2015 and 2014 here, Zara?

Yes, a brilliant display by Djokovic.

I am obviously talking about 2015. He went out Dimitrov in 2014.

 

[Steve0904]

I am obviously talking about 2015. He went out Dimitrov in 2014.

It was clear to any objective observer that Murray was perfectly fine during Wimbledon 2015. He was having a fantastic year up to that point (even showing huge improvements on clay) and showed no signs of injury in that match.

He simply got obliterated by the (now) winningest Wimbledon champion of all time. No excuses.

 

[Zara]

It was clear to any objective observer that Murray was perfectly fine during Wimbledon 2015. He was having a fantastic year up to that point (even showing huge improvements on clay) and showed no signs of injury in that match.

He simply got obliterated by the (now) winningest Wimbledon champion of all time. No excuses.

Just want to say a couple of things and then end it because the problem with discussing any match that relates to Federer is dangerous, because he has one too many fans and I basically don't have time to respond so many posts as I get hit a lot and some of them tend to be not that pleasant. Anyway...

1) Murray was fine physically in 2015 (he got back into proper shape etc.) but mentally he was still far from winning another Slam. Any one of Djoko or Nadal or Federer would have beaten him at that year's Wimbledon.

2) Federer took himself to another level and was very pumped against Murray and it was mostly due to the fact that, Andy had beaten him in front of the same crowd at the Olympics final and in straight sets and Fedeer was very eagar to settle that score. AO 2013 didn't play any part in this vindictive role of his because Federer had already beaten Andy there on 2014.

But let's take the win over Murray as Federer did play excellent that day while I enjoy the final win by Nole. He too is one of my guys so why not.

 

[True Fanerer]

Top 10 matches to me is kind of difficult to do by memory. I don't see a whole lot of love for the 2008 final. Assume its because he lost. There was unbelievable shot making in that match. 2012 was a great win but not his best tennis. Obviously in the mid-2000's he was dominant. He was decent a couple years ago and played well in 2009. Its hard for me to say. That semifinal vs Murray was as dominant as I've ever seen him on serve. How do you rate this without thinking about rearranging it once you're done?

 

[Mr Feeny]

Top 10 matches to me is kind of difficult to do by memory. I don't see a whole lot of love for the 2008 final. Assume its because he lost. There was unbelievable shot making in that match. 2012 was a great win but not his best tennis. Obviously in the mid-2000's he was dominant. He was decent a couple years ago and played well in 2009. Its hard for me to say. That semifinal vs Murray was as dominant as I've ever seen him on serve. How do you rate this without thinking about rearranging it once you're done?

Go back and watch the 2012 final after the roof was closed. I watched it again last night and I couldn't believe how well he was hitting his forehand. He had Andy on a string when the match went indoors. Every forehand with pace. Painting lines. Short angled. Drop volleys.

I found myself missing his game back then. Before the racket change, he was really graceful. Having said that, his new game with the new racket thus far in 2017 is also beautiful in a different way. Lots of power and a very solid backhand. Certainly more effective, and perhaps he should have made the switch earlier.

But that performance after the 2nd set was a top 10 performance, atleast in my opinion. There were several instances where the commies were just laughing. You could hear Boris Becker gasp after Federer hit the down-the-line half volley in the 18 minute game in the 3rd set. Andrew Castle repeatedly said: "what can you do about that?", time and time again after each brilliant point that Fed played.
Tim Henman was lost for words with some of them. They kept using the same superlative - genius - to describe him. Sue baker called him a genius in the post match interview, because that was the only word that would come to mind during those last 2 sets.

Andy was an elite grass court player and Federer was just toying with him there. It was a masterclass.

 

[True Fanerer]

Go back and watch the 2012 final after the roof was closed. I watched it again last night and I couldn't believe how well he was hitting his forehand. He had Andy on a string when the match went indoors. Every forehand with pace. Painting lines. Short angled. Drop volleys.

I found myself missing his game back then. Before the racket change, he was really graceful. Having said that, his new game with the new racket thus far in 2017 is also beautiful in a different way. Lots of power and a very solid backhand. Certainly more effective, and perhaps he should have made the switch earlier.

But that performance after the 2nd set was a top 10 performance, atleast in my opinion. There were several instances where the commies were just laughing. You could hear Boris Becker gasp after Federer hit the down-the-line half volley in the 18 minute game in the 3rd set. Andrew Castle repeatedly said: "what can you do about that?", time and time again after each brilliant point that Fed played.
Tim Henman was lost for words with some of them. They kept using the same superlative - genius - to describe him. Sue baker called him a genius in the post match interview, because that was the only word that would come to mind during those last 2 sets.

Andy was an elite grass court player and Federer was just toying with him there. It was a masterclass.

I do remember his level picking up after the roof closed. I enjoyed the win of course. He was still playing great then I agree. But, I remember the Djokovic semi much much better. Federer had suffered time and time again facing Djokovic leading up to that. Novak had the best year in history in 2011. My favorite match maybe ever 2011 FO where Fed ended the streak.

Sadly he couldn't get it done against Rafa in the final. Many will disagree but I believe it was his best chance to defeat Nadal at Roland Garros. That disappointment as a fan carried over to the UO where he lost in the worst way possible. So at that point I hated Djokovic.

Here comes Wimbledon the following year and Djokovic once more. I dreaded it and assumed more disappointment of course. The roar from the crowd when Roger took the 3rd was amazing! It sticks out in my mind as the moment I knew he had won Wimbledon. I never feared Andy Murray for some odd reason after that. So, I guess it was a blur for me.

Its interesting how we all see the game in such different ways sometimes. Maybe I didn't appreciate the final for its true quality. One day all we will have are videos of his greatness. I watch them from time to time. I'm a Fed fanatic surrounded by people who don't see why I love tennis. Its a shame that people don't give it a chance. Appreciate your opinion and insight.

 

[Mr Feeny]

I do remember his level picking up after the roof closed. I enjoyed the win of course. He was still playing great then I agree. But, I remember the Djokovic semi much much better. Federer had suffered time and time again facing Djokovic leading up to that. Novak had the best year in history in 2011. My favorite match maybe ever 2011 FO where Fed ended the streak.

Sadly he couldn't get it done against Rafa in the final. Many will disagree but I believe it was his best chance to defeat Nadal at Roland Garros. That disappointment as a fan carried over to the UO where he lost in the worst way possible. So at that point I hated Djokovic.

Here comes Wimbledon the following year and Djokovic once more. I dreaded it and assumed more disappointment of course. The roar from the crowd when Roger took the 3rd was amazing! It sticks out in my mind as the moment I knew he had won Wimbledon. I never feared Andy Murray for some odd reason after that. So, I guess it was a blur for me.

Its interesting how we all see the game in such different ways sometimes. Maybe I didn't appreciate the final for its true quality. One day all we will have are videos of his greatness. I watch them from time to time. I'm a Fed fanatic surrounded by people who don't see why I love tennis. Its a shame that people don't give it a chance. Appreciate your opinion and insight.

Agree with you about the 2011 FO final. What a let-off. Federer mucked it up from a really good position and was up 5-2 in the first.

Regarding the semi against Djokovic, I'm not sure why but I just wasn't nervous. Once Nadal went out, I felt more confident. It was similar to the feeling I had once Soderling took out Nadal at the French in 09. Fed survived a 5 set match against Haas and he went on to cruise to the title. He did the same against Beneateau here. Once he was out of that pickle I felt as if he was destined.

I loved the match against Djokovic. He won the first set in something like 24 minutes iirc and was hitting the ball cleanly. Djokovic came back to take the second set but I really wasn't nervous. I knew the 3rd set was vital and was confident he'd have a chance as long as he held serve to guaantee a tiebreak.

As it turns out, he didn' need it. He was down a break point at 4-5, I think in that 3rd set before hitti g 3 straight aces and was out and clean in 30 seconds. Djokovic gritted his teeth and looked frustrated. The serve was like a get out of jail card. Be promptly broke Smoker to end the 3rd set, ending the set on the approach and volley, which was the point you were referring to. I'l never forget it either. Federer fist pumped and screamed something but the crowd's noise drowned it out, as Andrew Castle screamed "he's got it. 2sets to ONE!!!"

He then took 3 consecutive games in the 3rd set in something like 10 minutes and was out of sight. That 5 game stretch was insane. Djokovic looked shell-shocked. The crowd was wild and hardly resembled a tennis crowd.
And I - like you - wasn't afraid of the Murray match. Like you,I knew he'd win Wimbledon. But for me,that was after the Beneteau match. Once he got out of that, I didn' think anything was going to stop him. He cleaned Djokovic in 2 hours and 20 minutes, if I'm not mistaken. It was a much quicker match than the final. The drama was less, for me. Even though he (Novak) was the better player than Murray.

Thank you for the post. It' always lovely hearing other people's thoughts on these matches.

 

[underground]

Yup agree totally, very overrated match. Federer's serving was great but his ground game was no where near his best.

That was actually one of the best groundie days Rog had in 2015.

 

[mike danny]

It's incredible that Roger is probably the only guy among the Big 4 who even has a top 10 matches on grass.

 

[Steve0904]

Just want to say a couple of things and then end it because the problem with discussing any match that relates to Federer is dangerous, because he has one too many fans and I basically don't have time to respond so many posts as I get hit a lot and some of them tend to be not that pleasant. Anyway...

1) Murray was fine physically in 2015 (he got back into proper shape etc.) but mentally he was still far from winning another Slam. Any one of Djoko or Nadal or Federer would have beaten him at that year's Wimbledon.

2) Federer took himself to another level and was very pumped against Murray and it was mostly due to the fact that, Andy had beaten him in front of the same crowd at the Olympics final and in straight sets and Fedeer was very eagar to settle that score. AO 2013 didn't play any part in this vindictive role of his because Federer had already beaten Andy there on 2014.

But let's take the win over Murray as Federer did play excellent that day while I enjoy the final win by Nole. He too is one of my guys so why not.

You don't know that though. And certainly not as far as Nadal is concerned. Federer and Murray both played the match in good health and Federer played brilliantly and beat him in straight sets. It's a simple concept that doesn't require mental gymnastics to understand. Especially since Federer is undoubtedly the better overall player and better on grass.

As far as the part about Federer having "one too many fans" goes, didn't you start this little convo by originally responding to me? And now your complaining about debating being "dangerous" and getting a lot of backlash. Doesn't really make sense does it? Not to mention that you'll obviously get backlash after a comment like this:

"Yes but that was sub-par Andy still making a comeback after the surgery. After that match, I knew Federer was going to lose to Djokovic so it was a quite the treat to see the final."

Especially the first part since it's clear to everybody that 2014 was Murray's bad year and by Wimbledon 2015 the "not mentally ready" angle is only a fan's opinion and not a fact that should take anything away from Federer's win. The second part of the comment is not much better since it's very clear that you were baiting me. I could've been a lot more mean in my response to the above quote, but I chose not to be.

 

[Steve0904]

Just want to say a couple of things and then end it because the problem with discussing any match that relates to Federer is dangerous, because he has one too many fans and I basically don't have time to respond so many posts as I get hit a lot and some of them tend to be not that pleasant. Anyway...

1) Murray was fine physically in 2015 (he got back into proper shape etc.) but mentally he was still far from winning another Slam. Any one of Djoko or Nadal or Federer would have beaten him at that year's Wimbledon.

2) Federer took himself to another level and was very pumped against Murray and it was mostly due to the fact that, Andy had beaten him in front of the same crowd at the Olympics final and in straight sets and Fedeer was very eagar to settle that score. AO 2013 didn't play any part in this vindictive role of his because Federer had already beaten Andy there on 2014.

But let's take the win over Murray as Federer did play excellent that day while I enjoy the final win by Nole. He too is one of my guys so why not.

You don't know that though. And certainly not as far as Nadal is concerned. Federer and Murray both played the match in good health and Federer played brilliantly and beat him in straight sets. It's a simple concept that doesn't require mental gymnastics to understand. Especially since Federer is undoubtedly the better overall player and better on grass.

As far as the part about Federer having "one too many fans" goes, didn't you start this little convo by originally responding to me? And now your complaining about debating being "dangerous" and getting a lot of backlash. Doesn't really make sense does it? Not to mention that you'll obviously get backlash after a comment like this:

"Yes but that was sub-par Andy still making a comeback after the surgery. After that match, I knew Federer was going to lose to Djokovic so it was a quite the treat to see the final."

Especially the first part since it's clear to everybody that 2014 was Murray's bad year and by Wimbledon 2015 the "not mentally ready" angle is only a fan's opinion and not a fact that should take anything away from Federer's win. The second part of the comment is not much better since it's very clear that you were baiting me. I could've been a lot more mean in my response to the above quote, but I chose not to be.

 

[fedtennisphan]

Just want to say a couple of things and then end it because the problem with discussing any match that relates to Federer is dangerous, because he has one too many fans and I basically don't have time to respond so many posts as I get hit a lot and some of them tend to be not that pleasant. Anyway...

1) Murray was fine physically in 2015 (he got back into proper shape etc.) but mentally he was still far from winning another Slam. Any one of Djoko or Nadal or Federer would have beaten him at that year's Wimbledon.

2) Federer took himself to another level and was very pumped against Murray and it was mostly due to the fact that, Andy had beaten him in front of the same crowd at the Olympics final and in straight sets and Fedeer was very eagar to settle that score. AO 2013 didn't play any part in this vindictive role of his because Federer had already beaten Andy there on 2014.

But let's take the win over Murray as Federer did play excellent that day while I enjoy the final win by Nole. He too is one of my guys so why not.

Sour grapes. You’re just mad because the only fans Murray has is mom and Fedhaters.

 

[abmk]

@Steve0904 :

Zara is an utterly sore & crappy poster, even by some by the standards of the worst posters at TTW. No point in discussing with her.

 

[Devin]

@Steve0904 :

Zara is an utterly sore & crappy poster, even by some by the standards of the worst posters at TTW. No point in discussing with her.

I've seen worse, haha.

Guess the poster (this is an easy one): Tries to be a tennis historian, yet is biased. Seems like Rosewall might be some religious god to him actually.

 

[Druss]

It's overrated when talking purely in terms of level of play, when you consider the timing of it yes it was hugely impressive.

You can’t argue that 2015 SF was one of Roger’s BEST matches on grass since 2009, easily top 3 in that 5-6 year span. Murray was in top form (I would have given him a 50/50 chance of beating Djoker had he won the semi) and was actually favoured at the bookies ahead of Fed going into the match. So to have dismantled Murray like he done, says a lot of his level of play.

Pity it wasn’t replicated in the final :/

 

[Druss]

It's overrated when talking purely in terms of level of play, when you consider the timing of it yes it was hugely impressive.

You can’t argue that 2015 SF was one of Roger’s BEST matches on grass since 2009, easily top 3 in that 5-6 year span. Murray was in top form (I would have given him a 50/50 chance of beating Djoker had he won the semi) and was actually favoured at the bookies ahead of Fed going into the match. So to have dismantled Murray like he done, says a lot of his level of play.

Pity it wasn’t replicated in the final :/

 

[MeatTornado]

2) Federer took himself to another level and was very pumped against Murray and it was mostly due to the fact that, Andy had beaten him in front of the same crowd at the Olympics final and in straight sets and Fedeer was very eagar to settle that score. AO 2013 didn't play any part in this vindictive role of his because Federer had already beaten Andy there on 2014.

Pretty sure the Olympics was Andy settling the score for the Wimbledon final just weeks earlier. I doubt Fed was eager to settle a score that was already even, and especially not 3 years later.

And I don't think an athlete of his caliber can succeed the way he has if he was angry about every loss. Everyone who's ever been in Fed's camp says he does a great job at moving on from losses and looking forward one match at a time.

 

[abmk]

I've seen worse, haha.

Guess the poster (this is an easy one): Tries to be a tennis historian, yet is biased. Seems like Rosewall might be some religious god to him actually.

heh, I know. But that guy actually makes sense once in a while. Zara, less so.

 

[Druss]

Yes but that was sub-par Andy still making a comeback after the surgery. After that match, I knew Federer was going to lose to Djokovic so it was a quite the treat to see the final.

Sub-par? That match was almost 2 years post surgery!!! That was peak Murray we’re talking about.

Just sick of hearing the Murray post surgery excuses.

It’s like saying Federer is playing sub-par (age related) these days as he still hasn’t fully recovered from his surgery of mid 2016.

 

[Druss]

Delete

 

[Steve0904]

@Steve0904 :

Zara is an utterly sore & crappy poster, even by some by the standards of the worst posters at TTW. No point in discussing with her.

Yes I've seen enough of her posts to know that, but thanks for the heads up anyway. I need to keep some Federer haters around just for the entertainment value.