Gamma Progression ST II Stringing Machine. Good Beginners String machine?

[[K]Topspin]

I've had a lot of friends who had absolutely no experience, didn't know ANYTHING about stringing. I too right now, don't know what crank, dropweights, or floating clamps or anything else. Anyways ...

One - Got the Klippermate
Two - Gamma Progression ST II
Three - Revo

The one with the Gamma, seems to do the best. They learned quicker, and they do the best string job. I was wondering, should I get this machine too?

 

[Zhou]

Umm.... Would you rephrase your question.

If I understand you right, you want to get the klippermate first,then get the Gamma, and finally get the Revo.
There is absolutely no point because both the Gamma and the Revo are table top cranks. I would either get the Gamma or the Revo. Not both.

 

[Gamma Tech]

i would ask your friends to try them out or watch them string since you have access to different machines and brands. the STII & Revo are going to be similar.
bret

 

[Zhou]

Another thing I would like to add is that all stringing machines do the same quality job. The variable is the stringer himself.

 

[[K]Topspin]

Thanks . I guess I'll buy the Gamma.

 

[buder]

not much to see here. I've put many miles on both. very similar. far as I'm concerned, the gamma clamps make the difference. not only do they slip less at the base, but the diamond dusted coating allows you to grip the string with less pressure. this means less crushing of the string. also, the diablo or nose cone on the ST II translates into less pressure on the tension head -- this increases longevity. also, consider where you live and things like shipping and how easy it will be to get service. both these machines are fine mechanics-wise, but it's nice to invent categories that tip scales. either machine would be fine.

 

[Zach]

The Revo has spring-assissted clamps though, that's why I purchased one.

 

[Cruzer]

I got a ST II six years ago and have never regretted it. Today's version has all metal clamps whereas when I purchased mine the clamps were composite. I upgraded to the all metal clamps and added a Wise tension head three years ago and the setup is excellent.

 

[ambro]

Another thing I would like to add is that all stringing machines do the same quality job. The variable is the stringer himself.

Worst post ever. You honestly think you can do just as good a job on a Klipper as a Babolat Star 5? Or even a Klipper and a fixed clamp dropweight? Get real. The stringer himself is the biggest variable, but there's a reason the Star 5 costs 20+ times (?) as much as a Klipper.

 

[Zhou]

Worst post ever. You honestly think you can do just as good a job on a Klipper as a Babolat Star 5? Or even a Klipper and a fixed clamp dropweight? Get real. The stringer himself is the biggest variable, but there's a reason the Star 5 costs 20+ times (?) as much as a Klipper.

Do you understand a Tour level stringer using a Klippermate would most likely produce a higher quality string job than some new person who owns a Star 5...

 

[baek57]

he was just saying there are more variables than just the stringer.

 

[Zhou]

I agree there are more variables than just the stringer but very few consumer stringers will honestly shell out the $3000 to buy the Star 5?

Moreover I would like to say I was explaining it based on the 3 stringing machines he had comparing the Alpha to the Gamma.

 

[AmericanTemplar]

I think that what Zhou was getting at is that the OP's friend's different choices of machines shouldn't have much of an effect on how well they pick up stringing.

 

[ambro]

Do you understand a Tour level stringer using a Klippermate would most likely produce a higher quality string job than some new person who owns a Star 5...

Of course that's true. There's a reason why they're tour stringers. There's also a reason why, like I said, a Babolat costs so much. Read my post again, and focus on the last sentence.

 

[SW Stringer]

Worst post ever. You honestly think you can do just as good a job on a Klipper as a Babolat Star 5? Or even a Klipper and a fixed clamp dropweight? Get real. The stringer himself is the biggest variable, but there's a reason the Star 5 costs 20+ times (?) as much as a Klipper.

There's no reason to jump all over Zhou. He's expressing his teenage opinion in a polite way. Your response was anything but polite. And the reason the froggie designed euro trash is more expensive has more to do with the brand allegiance they've built up over the years than anything else - priced to what the market will bear. The Star 5 will certainly do a job equal to the Klipper with an experienced operator - at only 20 times the price!! The Klipper is also made in America - so no gosh awful exchange rate to worry about.

 

[ambro]

OK, maybe I was a bit harsh, but to say that the stringer is the ONLY variable is absurd. I was just a bit frustrated with his ridiculous advice to [K]Topspin. And you're dead wrong about the myth that a Klipper can do just as good a job as a Babolat. Not saying you can't string good on a Klipper, it works just fine. You can still be relatively consistent with it as well. But provided there isn't a huge difference in the actual stringer himself, a two-point dropweight with floating clamps will NEVER match a six-point electronic with fixed clamps. Never.

Anyway, we're clogging up the original posters post. My apologies for starting this off-topic discussion.




As for my opinion on the original question, if you've got the cash go with the Revo or Gamma. There's no real noticeable difference between the two except for the clamp bases, and that's pretty small in itself. The Klipper is a fine machine if you plan on just stringing for yourself and maybe a few others. If you plan to do more than one a week, don't get anything with floating clamps, or you'll be sorry. The machine probably didn't have much to do with who got better faster or who does a better job between the second and third of your friends; the person with the Gamma probably just pays more attention, and is generally probably more competent with mechanical tasks, and that is why he picked it up quicker. A crank will help you learn faster than a dropweight would, so like I said, if you can afford it, get that. It will also offer much more consistent results, despite with Zhou may believe. My personal opinion on the machine you should get is the Revo.

 

[SW Stringer]

. . . And you're dead wrong about the myth that a Klipper can do just as good a job as a Babolat. . . . But provided there isn't a huge difference in the actual stringer himself, a two-point dropweight with floating clamps will NEVER match a six-point electronic with fixed clamps. Never. . . .

JayCeeParee swears by floating clamps (s t r i n g w a y) and has posted at the GSS site - he's also used Babolat machines too . . . so he may disagree with your second point above.

As far as your first point goes . . . I said the Babolat Star 5 might possibly be able to match the quality of a Klippermate . . . assuming you have an experienced operator. The Star 5 tension head can't match the precision of the Klipper tension head . . . or any other dropweight for that matter . . . ever! The operator has no control over the precision . . . simple as that.

 

[ambro]

Just because someone "swears by them" doesn't mean they can match the quality, or are as good. He just prefers them. Just like PSGD can't ever match the feel or power of a top level gut (Babolat, Klip, Bow Brand, etc.), but some people may still prefer PSGD to gut. They just like the characteristics better.

But with your second point, are you saying that a Klipper is MORE precise than a Babolat? If so, that's just ridiculous. If your argument is "gravity is more precise than electronics," you're right, but that means the bar needs to be EXACTLY horizontal, which rarely happens, especially with a non-ratchet dropweight such as the Klipper. Also, flying clamps are not as efficient and do not allow for the precision of fixed, no matter what you say. That's not to say some may not prefer them, but they aren't as consistent.

And the operator absolutely does have something to do with precision. Say on a dropweight for example, with a soft, stretchy multi. The bar falls to horizontal, and you go to move the clamp from the previous string. You take about 15 seconds (slow, I know... just an example), and during that time the string stretches to about 20 degrees below horizontal. On the next string the bar again falls to horizonal, and you clamp in 5 seconds and the string has only stretched to 5 degrees past horizontal. The 10 second difference has resulted in a difference in tension of up to 4 lbs if stringing at 60 lbs. On the same machine. But the operator has NO control over precision, you're right. Absolutely right.

 

[ambro]

Also, can someone please split this side discussion into a new topic. It's pretty much irrelevant to the original topic.

 

[SW Stringer]

Just because someone "swears by them" doesn't mean they can match the quality, or are as good. He just prefers them. Just like PSGD can't ever match the feel or power of a top level gut (Babolat, Klip, Bow Brand, etc.), but some people may still prefer PSGD to gut. They just like the characteristics better.

But with your second point, are you saying that a Klipper is MORE precise than a Babolat? If so, that's just ridiculous. If your argument is "gravity is more precise than electronics," you're right, but that means the bar needs to be EXACTLY horizontal, which rarely happens, especially with a non-ratchet dropweight such as the Klipper. Also, flying clamps are not as efficient and do not allow for the precision of fixed, no matter what you say. That's not to say some may not prefer them, but they aren't as consistent.

And the operator absolutely does have something to do with precision. Say on a dropweight for example, with a soft, stretchy multi. The bar falls to horizontal, and you go to move the clamp from the previous string. You take about 15 seconds (slow, I know... just an example), and during that time the string stretches to about 20 degrees below horizontal. On the next string the bar again falls to horizonal, and you clamp in 5 seconds and the string has only stretched to 5 degrees past horizontal. The 10 second difference has resulted in a difference in tension of up to 4 lbs if stringing at 60 lbs. On the same machine. But the operator has NO control over precision, you're right. Absolutely right.

" . . . because someone "swears by them" doesn't mean they can match the quality, or are as good. . . . " Nope, JayCEEParis (an experienced user of Babolat and other top-end machines) says the s-way floating clamps are SUPERIOR to the fixed clamps on those mentioned machines . . . so if you disagree take it up with him. He does present a very compelling argument though - do a search at the GSS site if you're interested.

On the second point again you present a ridiculous argument (the slow clamp example) to show a huge variation in pull tension. Sure, it will happen for a rank beginner. For a seasoned operator getting the bar exactly horizontal is a no brainer on just about any dropweight - not just the Klippermate. My point was that the operator of an electronic tension head has no control over the clamp-off precision, be it Babolat, Gamma, Alpha, etc, etc. With the standard dropweight the clamp-off precision is totally under the control of the operator. Now I won't argue the point that some people posess neither the skill nor the patience to get horizontal pulls time after time - but I firmly believe it's easily attained by the majority of users if they'll apply some patience and practice.

 

[ambro]

On the floating clamps argument I couldn't care less anymore. If he thinks they're better, so be it. I'll check out his argument.

I don't understand your argument that the operator has no control over clamp off precision. I mean, I understand what you're saying, but I don't see what it proves. Of course the operator has no control over the precision of the electronic tension head. That's the point of it being electronic, so there is no manual work done in pulling tension. If you're trying to say it is less accurate because of this, that's just being ignorant. With a dropweight, it is pretty easy to get it horizontal, I agree. I owned one for four years. But keeping it horizontal is a different story, and has nothing to do with the person operating it. It is caused by creep, which was shown in my "ridiculous argument" above. The string stretches, but a dropweight is unable to self adjust to keep the tension accurate. An electronic, on the other hand, is able to detect this stretching and keeps the tension where it needs to be. This is why the accuracy of a dropweight can never be compared to that of an electronic.

 

[SW Stringer]

On the floating clamps argument I couldn't care less anymore. If he thinks they're better, so be it. I'll check out his argument.

I don't understand your argument that the operator has no control over clamp off precision. I mean, I understand what you're saying, but I don't see what it proves. Of course the operator has no control over the precision of the electronic tension head. That's the point of it being electronic, so there is no manual work done in pulling tension. If you're trying to say it is less accurate because of this, that's just being ignorant. With a dropweight, it is pretty easy to get it horizontal, I agree. I owned one for four years. But keeping it horizontal is a different story, and has nothing to do with the person operating it. It is caused by creep, which was shown in my "ridiculous argument" above. The string stretches, but a dropweight is unable to self adjust to keep the tension accurate. An electronic, on the other hand, is able to detect this stretching and keeps the tension where it needs to be. This is why the accuracy of a dropweight can never be compared to that of an electronic.

" . . . I don't understand your argument that the operator has no control over clamp off precision. I mean, I understand what you're saying, but I don't see what it proves. . . . " Well, let me see if I can clear up your apparent ignorance of the facts on electric/electronic tensioning heads. ALL electronic/electric tensioning heads overshoot their reference by a little (100 grams) and some a lot (up to 5 pounds) - it's just the nature of the control loop and the elasticity of the string, and again the operator has NO control over how much overshoot there is nor when it will happen. So, at clamp off time the ACTUAL TENSION on the string can be as little as the reference tension MINUS the repull trigger point (100 grams to as much as 5 pounds) to reference tension plus 5 pounds. For example, if your reference tension is 60 pounds, then clamp off tension could be anywhere between 55 and 65 pounds, depending on the machine. Guess what, you'll have a hard time finding those specs in the manufacturers data, if they exist at all. If it weren't for the dedicated professionals at GSS publishing some of these numbers and my dogged research at the US Patent and Trademark Office I'd be just as ignorant as you in this area.

Dropweights do not suffer from the overshoot problem and clamping off when the rod is horizontal shouldn't be a problem except for the mechanically challenged individuals. For those who prefer the convenience of electrics/electronic tensioning units it comes with a price - unknown clamp-off accuracy (could vary plus or minus 5 pounds). FYI Babolat machines appear to have the most accurate electronics, being able to guarantee reference tension plus or minus 100 grams. If you want more detail search the GSS site for electronic machine posts by A.B. Lee and John Gugel - they are the most knowledgeable in this area.

 

[ambro]

I don't buy that whole +/- 5 thing, and I don't know where you may have gotten that information. But it really doesn't make a difference to me either. If that's true, so be it, but I don't have the time to look it up. Go ahead and think that dropweights and string way floating clamps are God and try to argue your point to the stringers at Wimbledon. Get them to string with string way dropweights, since they're the only true accurate machines and that's what the pros need, and see what their response is. I'm done here.

 

[SW Stringer]

I don't buy that whole +/- 5 thing, and I don't know where you may have gotten that information. But it really doesn't make a difference to me either. If that's true, so be it, but I don't have the time to look it up. Go ahead and think that dropweights and string way floating clamps are God and try to argue your point to the stringers at Wimbledon. Get them to string with string way dropweights, since they're the only true accurate machines and that's what the pros need, and see what their response is. I'm done here.

It's a free country, think what you want, and don't let the facts get in the way! Anyway your response seems a bit constipated . . . you might want to stay off the cheese for a while! :razz::razz: