Got a Heart Rate monitor -- now what?

[Tennis_Monk]

I got a Heart rate monitor watch as a present. So far i never paid attention to heart rate and such stuff. I basically used to do variable intensity interval training. Start running on treadmill at 7.5 mph for 2 minutes, then alternate 10.5 ,7.5 one minute each for 6-7 times and depending on the mood continue or cool off.

Once in a while, i glance the heart rate monitor on treadmill and usually before the start of my treadmill run, it is around 60-80. Right after i finish my run, i am around 160-180 and once i stop drops to ~115 in approx a minute or so.

based on what i read on forums, i may be missing out on an oppurtunity to train myself at some target heart rate or something like that.

Now that i have a heart rate monitor watch with a chest strap sensor.....

Please can anyone help me guide me and give me a "training using heart rate for dummies".

 

[coyfish]

I used to train with a HR monitor. I would just google it. There are good articles about what you should be doing. Comes down to what type of workout / training you are doing.

Essentially you train with the most accurate measure of expenditure . . . HR. Instead of going by speed, you gauge your effort by watching your heart.

You can really do anything you want with it.

 

[OrangeOne]

I got a Heart rate monitor watch as a present. So far i never paid attention to heart rate and such stuff. I basically used to do variable intensity interval training. Start running on treadmill at 7.5 mph for 2 minutes, then alternate 10.5 ,7.5 one minute each for 6-7 times and depending on the mood continue or cool off.

Once in a while, i glance the heart rate monitor on treadmill and usually before the start of my treadmill run, it is around 60-80. Right after i finish my run, i am around 160-180 and once i stop drops to ~115 in approx a minute or so.

based on what i read on forums, i may be missing out on an oppurtunity to train myself at some target heart rate or something like that.

Now that i have a heart rate monitor watch with a chest strap sensor.....

Please can anyone help me guide me and give me a "training using heart rate for dummies".

I used to train with a HR monitor. I would just google it. There are good articles about what you should be doing. Comes down to what type of workout / training you are doing.

Couldn't agree more with the above.

If I'd never trained myself properly and I acquired my first HRM, and i had no specific fitness goals other than being as fit for life as I could, I'd probably learn about and then build myself an aerobic base, starting with 10-12 weeks of pure base training, and then go from there.

Google "building an aerobic base" or similar

You can really do anything you want with it.

I have 4 HRMs, and I've never tried dancing with any of them. I've got 10 mins, i'm off to try now

 

[mike53]

alternate 10.5 ,7.5 one minute each for 6-7 times

Rather than timing for one minute at your 7.5 mph speed, use your heart rate monitor. As soon as your pulse rate returns to your steady state rate for the 7.5 mph speed, eg 140 bpm, then immediately move your speed up to 10.5 for another minute. This is because depending on your age and physical condition, the optimum recovery time will vary.

 

[charliefedererer]

The following is from the USTA training manual recently posted by SystemicAnomaly http://dps.usta.com/usta_master/usta/doc/content/doc_437_23.pdf
"Tennis is a sport that requires a high level of aerobic conditioning. Therefore, it is often
recommended that players receive additional aerobic training, above and beyond what they
get on the court, to be able to perform at optimal levels. In the chapter on strength and
conditioning, we talked about adaptation and how the body responds to increased demands it
is required to face. That holds for physiological training as well as for strength training.
In general, this means that players who are looking to improve their conditioning and on-court
endurance should perform regular aerobic training to induce changes in the body’s ability to
get oxygen to the working muscles. In other words, most tennis players should engage in
some form of regular endurance training that will help bolster their aerobic conditioning.
The American College of Sports Medicine has established several guidelines for improving
cardiovascular health and endurance. They are to perform an aerobic activity:
• At least 3 times per week.
• For 20-30 minutes at a time.
• That involves large muscle groups.
• With a heart rate between 60-85% of a player’s maximum heart rate.
Aerobic/ endurance training also provides many other beneficial physiological adaptations
that can enhance performance and reduce certain health risks. Some of these positive
benefits are listed below:
• Improved efficiency of the heart as it pumps blood to the muscles.
• Increased ability of the blood to carry oxygen to the muscles.
• Improved ability of muscles to extract oxygen from the blood.
• Improved body composition/ reduced body fat.
• Lower blood pressure and resting heart rate.
• Decreased stress on the body.
There is a wide array of on- and off-court exercises that will enhance a player’s aerobic
capacity. Endurance training can include moderate- to high-volume, interval or continuous,
on- or off-court tennis-specific drills, as well as the more traditional forms of endurance
training like jogging, swimming, cycling, or roller blading. The key to enhancing the aerobic
system is keeping the heart rate elevated for a fairly long period time. Generally, the player
should keep the intensity high, but below the level where lactic acid is produced. Monitoring
the heart rate is usually the most effective way of telling is a player is training in their ‘aerobic
training zone.”
The recommended range for heart rate during an activity to promote aerobic fitness is
between 60 and 85% of the player’s maximum heart rate. Despite the variability in maximal
heart rate within specific age ranges, the following formula can be used to estimate a player’s
heart rate range for enhancing aerobic fitness:
(220 – age of player) x .60 = lowest heart rate (60%)
(220 – age of player) x .85 = highest heart rate (85%)
For example, a 20-year-old player would want to train at an intensity where his or her heart

Several sample heart rate profiles recorded from players during several sets of singles
tennis are shown in Figure 3. The main curves shows the heart rates and the black dotted
lines show the upper and lower limits of this players’ aerobic training zone. You can see that
the players’ heart rate remained in the aerobic training zone for most of the match."

(Note this is not the exact same chart as was in the USTA example because I could not import it, but was very similar and is from http://images.google.com/imgres?img...&start=36&hl=en&sa=N&gbv=2&ndsp=18&tbs=isch:1)

 

[charliefedererer]

That USTA manual also stressed the importance of anaerobic training:

"Anaerobic Training Guidelines
Anaerobic exercise is characterized by brief, high-intensity periods of activity, where energy
metabolism during the activity periods is predominantly provided by the systems that do not
involve oxygen. As such, anaerobic training should include a series of brief, high-intensity
drills or activities followed by a specified period of rest to allow for replenishment of the
anaerobic energy stores within the working muscles. In general, it is recommended that you
provide a 1:3 work to rest ratio; this means for every second the player works, he or she gets
3 second of rest before the next interval. In other words, the longer the activity, the longer
the recovery interval should be.
With this type of training it is possible to
impact the body’s ability to deal with lactic
acid. With a properly designed anaerobic
training program a player’s body will
adapt to be able to perform at higher
intensities without an appreciable gain in
the lactic acid that is produced. The
intensity level where the body switches
from aerobic to anaerobic energy systems
is commonly called the lactate threshold.
In Figure 2, the lactate threshold is
identified as the intensity where the
lactate levels in the blood start to increase
suddenly. With training, it is possible to
shift the lactate threshold to higher and
higher intensities.
Please note, as important and beneficial
as anaerobic interval training can be for
helping to optimally develop a tennis player, such training is also very demanding. Without
sufficient preparation, progression (within the session and over longer periods of time), warmup,
and recovery, too much of this type of training can readily lead to injury."
http://dps.usta.com/usta_master/usta/doc/content/doc_437_23.pdf

While there is no direct USTA recommendation for using heart rate as a monitor for anaerobic training, there seems a reasonable explanation and estimation of heart rate using the Canconi method on the Sports Fitness website: http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/heart-rate-training.html

"The Conconi Test for Measuring Lactate Threshold
As mentioned earlier, the simplest method for determining the lactate threshold is to assume it occurs at 85-90% of the maximum heart rate. An alternative is to use the Conconi test...

In 1982 Conconi et al, stated that the lactate threshold was linked to a deflection point in heart rate data. Heart rate plateaus briefly before rising sharply again and this is said to correspond with a sudden rise in blood lactate concentrations. There are various protocols used to elicit the plateau Conconi and co-workers refer to. Here is an example:

Equipment

•Treadmill (with metric setting - km/hr and meters)

•Heart rate monitor

•Assistant to take recordings

Procedure

•Begin by warming up at a light pace for 5 to 10 minutes. Set the treadmill to a 1% incline.

•The run should last between 2.5km and 4km to allow sufficient data to be collected.

•Gauge your starting speed. Speed is gradually increased every 200m so start too quickly and you won't last long enough. Start too slowly and you'll be there all day.

•As a guideline 8 - 10 km/hr is a good starting point.

•Increase the speed every 200m by 0.5 km/hr.

•Record the heart rate and speed at each 200m interval.

•Continue until exhaustion and complete a 10 minute cool down.


You can now plot a simple heart rate graph like the one below and read off lactate threshold:

You can see from the graph above the obvious plateau and deflection in heart rate. It seems to correspond with a heart rate of 172bpm. In theory, then an athlete could train at or just above this heart rate training zone and improve their lactate threshold. However, caution is required when using this test as subsequent research has questioned its validity (7,8). It has been argued that the deflection point occurrs only in a certain number of those tested and that it underestimates the lactate threshold exercise intensity.

Heart Rate Training to Increase Lactate Threshold

Here's a simple heart rate training program to increase lactate threshold...

•Assuming your heart rate at lactate threshold is 170bpm

•Start by completing two 6-10 minute runs approximately 5% below the lactate threshold heart rate. In this case it would be 162bpm.

•Rest for 2-3 minutes between runs and complete this twice a week.

•Gradually build up the length of each run or the number of repetitions (up to 6). Also increase your target heart rate up to your threshold (170bpm).

•The target eventually is to reach a sustained 20minute run at or just above your threshold heart rate.

•Complete a thorough cool down at the end of each session. Also re-test your lactate threshold every 6-8 weeks."


Of course, you could be much less scientific, and probably a lot more practical, to run your anaerobic training sessions to get up to a sustained level 4-5 on your heart rate monitor, then rest until you drop to level 3, and then exercise back up to level 5 again.

"Heart Rate Percentage

A very simply method for estimating the anaerobic threshold is to assume anaerobic threshold occurs at 85-90% maximum heart rate (220-age). As mentioned earlier, heart rate varies greatly between individuals and even within the same individual so this is not a reliable test." http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/anaerobicthreshold.html
http://www.howtobefit.com/five-heart-rate-zones.htm

 

[charliefedererer]

That last reference http://www.howtobefit.com/five-heart-rate-zones.htm seems like enough of a simple but effective way to look at heart rate monitor training that it shouldn't be overlooked in the long posts above.
Another useful reference is the following: http://ericcressey.com/interval-training-hiit-or-miss

 

[OrangeOne]

The following is from the USTA training manual recently posted by SystemicAnomaly http://dps.usta.com/usta_master/usta/doc/content/doc_437_23.pdf
"Tennis is a sport that requires a high level of aerobic conditioning. Therefore, it is often
recommended that players receive additional aerobic training, above and beyond what they
get on the court, to be able to perform at optimal levels. In the chapter on strength and
conditioning, we talked about adaptation and how the body responds to increased demands it
is required to face. That holds for physiological training as well as for strength training.
In general, this means that players who are looking to improve their conditioning and on-court
endurance should perform regular aerobic training to induce changes in the body’s ability to
get oxygen to the working muscles. In other words, most tennis players should engage in
some form of regular endurance training that will help bolster their aerobic conditioning.
The American College of Sports Medicine has established several guidelines for improving
cardiovascular health and endurance. They are to perform an aerobic activity:
• At least 3 times per week.
• For 20-30 minutes at a time.
• That involves large muscle groups.
• With a heart rate between 60-85% of a player’s maximum heart rate.
Aerobic/ endurance training also provides many other beneficial physiological adaptations
that can enhance performance and reduce certain health risks. Some of these positive
benefits are listed below:
• Improved efficiency of the heart as it pumps blood to the muscles.
• Increased ability of the blood to carry oxygen to the muscles.
• Improved ability of muscles to extract oxygen from the blood.
• Improved body composition/ reduced body fat.
• Lower blood pressure and resting heart rate.
• Decreased stress on the body.
There is a wide array of on- and off-court exercises that will enhance a player’s aerobic
capacity. Endurance training can include moderate- to high-volume, interval or continuous,
on- or off-court tennis-specific drills, as well as the more traditional forms of endurance
training like jogging, swimming, cycling, or roller blading. The key to enhancing the aerobic
system is keeping the heart rate elevated for a fairly long period time. Generally, the player
should keep the intensity high, but below the level where lactic acid is produced. Monitoring
the heart rate is usually the most effective way of telling is a player is training in their ‘aerobic
training zone.”
The recommended range for heart rate during an activity to promote aerobic fitness is
between 60 and 85% of the player’s maximum heart rate. Despite the variability in maximal
heart rate within specific age ranges, the following formula can be used to estimate a player’s
heart rate range for enhancing aerobic fitness:
(220 – age of player) x .60 = lowest heart rate (60%)
(220 – age of player) x .85 = highest heart rate (85%)
For example, a 20-year-old player would want to train at an intensity where his or her heart

Several sample heart rate profiles recorded from players during several sets of singles
tennis are shown in Figure 3. The main curves shows the heart rates and the black dotted
lines show the upper and lower limits of this players’ aerobic training zone. You can see that
the players’ heart rate remained in the aerobic training zone for most of the match."

(Note this is not the exact same chart as was in the USTA example because I could not import it, but was very similar and is from http://images.google.com/imgres?img...&start=36&hl=en&sa=N&gbv=2&ndsp=18&tbs=isch:1)

The above info is what I would expect from a Tennis body talking about heart rate - it's very, very generic - right down to them using the most basic (and often incorrect) way of working out Max HR.

Put another way: It's the equivalent of telling people to hold and semi-western grip and swing a loop to hit a forehand. Not incorrect in many circumstances, but in the field, very, very basic.

Anyone actually owning a heart rate monitor and interested in developing their fitness should spend an hour or two doing a bit of reading on the net / of a fitness book, there's soo much more to learn and so many more advantages to take than simply training between 60 & 85%.

Edit: After seeing the next post from Charlie above (that was made during my reply), they have gone into more detail, which is good. I'd still encourage people to read more, but what they've written is at least a start....

 

[charliefedererer]

The above info is what I would expect from a Tennis body talking about heart rate - it's very, very generic - right down to them using the most basic (and often incorrect) way of working out Max HR.

Put another way: It's the equivalent of telling people to hold and semi-western grip and swing a loop to hit a forehand. Not incorrect in many circumstances, but in the field, very, very basic.

Anyone actually owning a heart rate monitor and interested in developing their fitness should spend an hour or two doing a bit of reading on the net / of a fitness book, there's soo much more to learn and so many more advantages to take than simply training between 60 & 85%.

Edit: After seeing the next post from Charlie above (that was made during my reply), they have gone into more detail, which is good. I'd still encourage people to read more, but what they've written is at least a start....

Your absolutely right of course, that even with pretty long posts it's impossible to cover more than basics of heart rate monitor training.

But do you have some "pearls of wisdom" you'd care to offer in tennis training using a heart rate monitor?

 

[OrangeOne]

Your absolutely right of course, that even with pretty long posts it's impossible to cover more than basics of heart rate monitor training.

But do you have some "pearls of wisdom" you'd care to offer in tennis training using a heart rate monitor?

Hmm. Most of my HR background is for use in sports that are ruled by it (like cycling) or in training people for activities.

For some sports - like tennis - where one can't simply choose to 'not chase down a ball as they're going to exceed X HR'.... HRM's are a better tool away from the court.

1. As per my post earlier - if you're really serious about your sport (any sport), read up on building an aerobic base, to do this you'd also need to read up on periodization too.

2. Once you've done the above - you can plan some workouts. Even without the above, once you read more about heart rate training zones you could simply choose to program your sessions in the gym or when running, making sure that instead of "I'm going to run 5ks" being the goal, that you have a goal for the session. Maybe it's to build aerobic capacity, maybe it's to build your lactate threshold, or maybe it's to recover from a hard match. Any which way, if you've done enough reading, you can work out HR zones for each activity. If you've read up on periodization and zones, well you'll start to unlock the keys to training yourself to have a much more efficient cardiovascular system for your chosen activities.

3. I'd look into measuring resting heart rates and learning much more about them (how a decreasing one can indicate fitness progress, how an elevated one can indicate overtraining, etc etc).

4. I'd try wearing it during training matches, and get a picture of how hard you really do work in a match. If you have a very high end HRM, they record and can download to a computer, even moderate level ones will tell you your minimum, maximum and average. You can then see if you're where you should be, if you're working very very hard, etc etc.

There's probably a thousand things more, that's my thinking from 5 mins. I can't stress enough that just as the USTA can't tell you enough in a post, neither can I. Like anything moderately useful in life, it takes a bit of reading, not a lot mind you, just some. Of course, if you're serious and don't have the time or inclination, a few sessions with a decent, qualified, modern personal trainer or sports trainer and they can design you a program because they should already know all of this, and how to apply it.

 

[coyfish]

To be honest heart rate monitors are best suited for endurance athletes. Orange's post hints to this. The best way to train for tennis is to play tennis or do sprint / interval runs.

A lot of people say how tennis is an endurance sport. It really isn't. It obviously has an endurance aspect but its about burst speed and on / off explosiveness. Even at the pro level about 1/2 of a tennis match or even more in some cases is rest.

I think the best way to apply a HR monitor to your tennis is to train with interval runs and/or sprints. Bring your HR to a maximum level and jog so it lowers once again. Get your body used to bouts of high intensity so it can recover faster.

 

[charliefedererer]

There's probably a thousand things more, that's my thinking from 5 mins. I can't stress enough that just as the USTA can't tell you enough in a post, neither can I. Like anything moderately useful in life, it takes a bit of reading, not a lot mind you, just some. Of course, if you're serious and don't have the time or inclination, a few sessions with a decent, qualified, modern personal trainer or sports trainer and they can design you a program because they should already know all of this, and how to apply it.

Thanks for the tips to get headed in the right direction.

 

[charliefedererer]

To be honest heart rate monitors are best suited for endurance athletes. Orange's post hints to this. The best way to train for tennis is to play tennis or do sprint / interval runs.

A lot of people say how tennis is an endurance sport. It really isn't. It obviously has an endurance aspect but its about burst speed and on / off explosiveness. Even at the pro level about 1/2 of a tennis match or even more in some cases is rest.

I think the best way to apply a HR monitor to your tennis is to train with interval runs and/or sprints. Bring your HR to a maximum level and jog so it lowers once again. Get your body used to bouts of high intensity so it can recover faster.

I had been thinking the same as you that the best training for tennis would involve almost excusively HIIT training. (I always run, cycle, swim, ski, kayak at least once or twice a week because I enjoy it, but wondered how much this really was any good for tennis.)

But I recently wore my heart rate monitor playing tennis and found my heart rate never went below 130 and stayed at the 130-155 range for two and half hours. This is right in keeping with the above USTA training article, that most of tennis is played below the lactate threshold, and in heart rate level 3. So maybe there really is something to building more of an aerobic base to get ready for the spring tennis season, and ramp up more near the tail end with more HIIT. I'd love to hear other opinions, like from chess9.

 

[OrangeOne]

I had been thinking the same as you that the best training for tennis would involve almost excusively HIIT training. (I always run, cycle, swim, ski, kayak at least once or twice a week because I enjoy it, but wondered how much this really was any good for tennis.)

But I recently wore my heart rate monitor playing tennis and found my heart rate never went below 130 and stayed at the 130-155 range for two and half hours. This is right in keeping with the above USTA training article, that most of tennis is played below the lactate threshold, and in heart rate level 3. So maybe there really is something to building more of an aerobic base to get ready for the spring tennis season, and ramp up more near the tail end with more HIIT. I'd love to hear other opinions, like from chess9.

Well, as per my other post - I'd think for serious athlete in any even semi-aerobic sport - building an aerobic base is useful to do. But it takes time, effort, dedication etc etc. While tennis is often stop-start with anaerobic bursts, the heart rates you showed identifies that you're still aerobic-or-higher for the whole match.

I restricted my advice above, because unless you're serious about it, you'd never spend the time. Also, you need a lot of time, because once you have built the base, then you need to build the anaerobic work and speed work on top, especially especially relevant in the case of a sprinting sport like tennis.

A way to look at 'aerobic base': Your raw aerobic capacity - it defines the size of your engine, and decides whether you can use the big fuel tank (which, in this case is fat stores).

Spend a few months and work exclusively aerobically (at the low end), and you grow your engine, you get yourself a big v8, and you teach your body how to use the fat stores - the big fuel tank.

Now, sure, you could just train your existing '4 or maybe 6 cylinder engine' - work on the upper-end anaerobic and lactate end - including your HIIT work. This would be perhaps analogous to sticking a turbo on maybe - but we all know that ultimately, sticking a turbo on a 4 cylinder will never achieve the same as sticking that same turbo on an 8 cylinder down the track.

Also - it's a shame to have the turbo on the 4 cylinder if you can't really use your biggest fuel tank properly - the fat stores. If you don't have a solid base, your body will prefer carbs as fuel, and they run out relatively quickly, and then your body will have to switch to fat stores, and if untrained, it won't like it nearly so much, and it won't get nearly as much fuel.

All of that is incredibly paraphrased, dumbed-down, and my own analogy . A more common analogy is to thing of the zones as a pyramid, and to think of your aerobic capacity as the base. The bigger the base, the more aerobic work you can do, the bigger all of the levels above it - the more anaerobic work you can do, etc etc. Perhaps more importantly, the bigger the base, the longer your body will be happy to work aerobically, the less it will need to go anaerobic. Remember - working aerobically is something the body can do for a long time (think people who race 24 & 48 hour events), working anaerobically is limited much more by time, and hurts the body a lot more too.

Enough rambling. You'll read more if it interests you. Me, I'm in week 1 of a 12 week-base building program on the bike with the aim of doing some solid riding & punter-racing in my next summer (6 months away). It's nice knowing the focus is there, it's hard riding so comparatively slowly, easily, and knowing i'll be doing this for quite a while.

 

[coyfish]

Hmm well I do triathlons for fun right now. But last year I was doing them very seriously. Really a lot of constant intensity cardio. I really built my stamina but honestly I didn't feel it helped my tennis at all. I would still get just as tired on an intense point because I wasn't used to intensity spikes. Right now I train still but my runs are almost purely interval. I feel much better on the courts right now.

Im not sure if tennis is really as aerobic as you say orange. As I mentioned there is an aerobic aspect but it is mostly short bouts of energy and "frequent" rests. You get to sit every 15 min or so in which you can refuel your glycogen base with gatorade / banana / etc. Your body switches to aerobic after glycogen stores are depleted. Being able to run a marathon doesn't mean you will be able to play tennis longer.


Just teasing you here but thats a bad analogy (turbos). I have a 400hp turbo'd car and there are plenty of turbo'd 4 bangers throwing down over 1000hp. Displacement does matter but it isn't as linear as more cylinders > less cylinders.

 

[OrangeOne]

Hmm well I do triathlons for fun right now. But last year I was doing them very seriously. Really a lot of constant intensity cardio. I really built my stamina but honestly I didn't feel it helped my tennis at all. I would still get just as tired on an intense point because I wasn't used to intensity spikes. Right now I train still but my runs are almost purely interval. I feel much better on the courts right now.

Woaahh there. I'm not disputing what you've said - at all - but it's not as straightforward as you've made it sound.

Your triathlon training had little specificity to tennis. Specificity is a lovely, wonderful word, it basically means you get good at what you train for. You were training for steady-state endurance in triathlon terms, no way is that going to help tennis much (in fact, depending on the distances involved, it would likely harm you, as you've alluded to). The body isn't good at being fast as well as enduring.

Someone doing base-training with tennis in mind (or with short-course tris, or with anything at all!) would then develop their anaerobic system and muscular system to deliver power, speed, bursts, as required. Base of the pyramid.

Im not sure if tennis is really as aerobic as you say orange. As I mentioned there is an aerobic aspect but it is mostly short bouts of energy and "frequent" rests. You get to sit every 15 min or so in which you can refuel your glycogen base with gatorade / banana / etc. Your body switches to aerobic after glycogen stores are depleted. Being able to run a marathon doesn't mean you will be able to play tennis longer.

Build the base. It is what it says it is. The bigger the base, the bigger the anaerobic levels above it, and the less likely one is to need them. Make sense, somewhat?

In my neck of the woods, there's not much sitting either. Even continuous burts of energy will have most people baselining at an aerobic level much of the time, not a resting level.

Actually, I've got some mates playing some matches in the coming weeks, I'll strap my Polar Rs800 on them and publish the graphs after to see what we're looking at out of interest. For the record, when I talk of tennis, I'm talking solid-level singles here, not low-level singles (2 shot 'rallies') or any version of doubles (snoooooze).

Just teasing you here but thats a bad analogy (turbos). I have a 400hp turbo'd car and there are plenty of turbo'd 4 bangers throwing down over 1000hp. Displacement does matter but it isn't as linear as more cylinders > less cylinders.

Oh gawd. Resepctfully, it's actually a sound analogy, you're just very incorrectly assessing from the point of view of someone into tuning.

Sure, yes, a 4 cyclinder can produce 1000bhp. But physiologically, that's equivalent of training a 350lb obesely overweight man to long jump. With the right training, it can be done. Build the insides out of his legs from a power perspective, and he'll do ok. Not great, but ok. But after X many jumps, he's going to break. Badly. Just like a 4 cylinder producing 1000bhp, it's not something that is reliable or flexible, it's built for a purpose, and for the short term.

When training someone - you need to train them safely, reliably and for the long term. You're building a BMW, not a blinged-out WRX.

Look at the BMW range - sheesh, any production range for that matter - but let's stick with BMW - who go all the way up to serious performance. Arguably, all of their cars need to be reliable, if a $20k or $50k engine dies after a year, they're going to be warranty-replacing it, and the customer ain't gonna be happy on the side of the motorway in their armani.

Displacement does matter, and sure, less than cylinders, (I could have used either in my analogy, wouldn't have mattered) but ultimately, some permutation of increased displacement plus more cylinders = increased power for the same level of reliability and durability. That's why when BMW want 400-500hp, they head to 4 or 5 L - V8 or V10, and don't just achieve it by sticking a bigger turbo on their already amazing 6, for example!

Also - don't get me wrong, I far prefer to drool over lotus elise's and turbo-d MX5's than over vette's and whatever, i appreciate efficiency....but my analogy works, dammit

 

[charliefedererer]

Well, as per my other post - I'd think for serious athlete in any even semi-aerobic sport - building an aerobic base is useful to do. But it takes time, effort, dedication etc etc. While tennis is often stop-start with anaerobic bursts, the heart rates you showed identifies that you're still aerobic-or-higher for the whole match.

I restricted my advice above, because unless you're serious about it, you'd never spend the time.

Again, I have to thank you for the insight you've provided.

You mentioned "dumbed down" and that is perfect for me.

Perhaps another "dumbed down" analogy would be that of the value of strength training by lifting. Having stronger/bigger muscles won't mean that you will necessarily hit the ball faster, but if you subsequently train those bigger muscles, the potential is there to hit harder and have more endurance than if you never did the initial weight training.

 

[charliefedererer]

Hmm well I do triathlons for fun right now. But last year I was doing them very seriously. Really a lot of constant intensity cardio. I really built my stamina but honestly I didn't feel it helped my tennis at all. I would still get just as tired on an intense point because I wasn't used to intensity spikes. Right now I train still but my runs are almost purely interval. I feel much better on the courts right now.

Im not sure if tennis is really as aerobic as you say orange. As I mentioned there is an aerobic aspect but it is mostly short bouts of energy and "frequent" rests. You get to sit every 15 min or so in which you can refuel your glycogen base with gatorade / banana / etc. Your body switches to aerobic after glycogen stores are depleted. Being able to run a marathon doesn't mean you will be able to play tennis longer.

Coyfish,

Do you think that in training for your triatholons you were doing exactly what orange1 was talking about in building your aerobic base, then you more recent HIIT work was on top of that? Do you think you would have had as much HIIT boost for your tennis if you hadn't done that initial triathalon training? And if you look at heart rates and they rarely drop below 130, but only occasionaly over 150, during a match or long hitting session, would that not indicate that there is a fair amount of aerobic work potentially being done? And can't a fair amount of aerobic work be done off of glycogen stores/gatorade/bananas as long as lactate is not being produced?

 

[tricky]

You can really do anything you want with it.

Kinda shame there's no HIIT programme around lovemaking. P90xxx.

 

[coyfish]

I see what your saying orange. I think were talking semantics though because unless your a 5.0+ player your matches will never get that intense. Most of us aren't playing that level for 5 sets either.

As for the tuning thing . I was just teasing you but now you dragged me into it. Not all engines are created equal. The size of the engine and the potential / high hp reliability is not a linear relationship.

 

[coyfish]

Coyfish,

Do you think that in training for your triatholons you were doing exactly what orange1 was talking about in building your aerobic base, then you more recent HIIT work was on top of that? Do you think you would have had as much HIIT boost for your tennis if you hadn't done that initial triathalon training? And if you look at heart rates and they rarely drop below 130, but only occasionaly over 150, during a match or long hitting session, would that not indicate that there is a fair amount of aerobic work potentially being done? And can't a fair amount of aerobic work be done off of glycogen stores/gatorade/bananas as long as lactate is not being produced?

Its hard to say because I have always been active. But from my experience it seems like the on / off intensity of interval running / sprint intervals helps my tennis game more than anything. You really have to be a high 5.0+ level player for fitness to really become an issue imo.

I think we all agree that the balanced approach is the best. But if I were to do one thing I would do interval runs. That is jog slowly mixed with high speed intervals.

 

[Tennis_Monk]

I am not into Marathons. Been there done that, Got a T-Shirt.

I am working out for enjoying sports competitively. I play Lots of tennis , badminton , Basket ball and Cricket.

I have googled a lot but i didnt find a concrete definition of what an Aerobase is. I personally think i have a good aerobase but i dont have any stats to back it up. The reason why i feel that way is i am doing this VIIT (Variable intensity Interval training) for almost 6 months --since last October. I ran atleast 5 times a week and each time no less than 2.5 miles and never less than 7 MPH. Frankly, i dont know if i can do any better as i really cant put more than 20 mts per day on cardio.

I can clearly see some of the benefits of my workout. My movement is crisper and i track down a boat load of balls than i used to before and i can sustain that energy for long periods of time.

Given this back ground, would my next steps be to continue running but as soon as the heart rate drops, increase the intensity so that i hit closer towards 180-200 range and after a minute or so drop the speed and repeat this cycle to keep the heart rate around 130-150 range?

 

[OrangeOne]

Again, I have to thank you for the insight you've provided.

You mentioned "dumbed down" and that is perfect for me.

I'd hope i mentioned it on the fly, I'd hit myself if I ever used it seriously while explaining something.

Perhaps another "dumbed down" analogy would be that of the value of strength training by lifting. Having stronger/bigger muscles won't mean that you will necessarily hit the ball faster, but if you subsequently train those bigger muscles, the potential is there to hit harder and have more endurance than if you never did the initial weight training.

Yeah, not a bad one at all - if it's kept nice and generic. Probably issues with 'size', but yeah, certainly 'strength'... not a bad analogy. Not only that, but it's the same physical process in terms of training someone's muscular system for power - exactly the same. You spend a chunk of the 'off-season' building strength, and then the phases after that are aimed at 'converting' that strength to power & speed.

And if you look at heart rates and they rarely drop below 130, but only occasionaly over 150, during a match or long hitting session, would that not indicate that there is a fair amount of aerobic work potentially being done?

Depends on the age & fitness of the client, but if you're 130-150, for 20-40 year olds that will be absolutely smack in aerobic base territory.

And can't a fair amount of aerobic work be done off of glycogen stores/gatorade/bananas as long as lactate is not being produced?

Ahhh.... err.... This is where I'm not current enough to speak. It can be, the question is, would one want it to be?

I see what your saying orange. I think were talking semantics though because unless your a 5.0+ player your matches will never get that intense. Most of us aren't playing that level for 5 sets either.

As for the tuning thing . I was just teasing you but now you dragged me into it. Not all engines are created equal. The size of the engine and the potential / high hp reliability is not a linear relationship.

Of course not... hence the reason I stuck with BMW - who manufacture many of their engines as a 'family' to similar designs and efficiencies, and thus, well, there is a somewhat linear relationship going on. It would be wrong to compare a person with only 1 lung to someone with 2 in terms of training, as the, err, 'design' just isn't as efficient to begin with.

You really have to be a high 5.0+ level player for fitness to really become an issue imo.

This is a discussion for a whole other thread, but hmmm. I don't know, I'm a 4.5 - 5.0 player, I've coached, and I've got a game built around a serve, a forehand, and movement. Well, this was true of me when I was at my fittest, but yeah. Certainly if I'm playing a match, fitness is a factor. A 5, 10, 15 shot rally with some big forehands and some chasing will indeed throw the heart rate up there.

BUT: I know some 4.0, even some 3.5 level players that play based on retrieving and even pushing, who cover more ground in a match than I. Hell, I know some 10 year old evenly-matched juniors (not elite juniors, just juniors) who will have 20 & 30 shot rallies. All of the above cases are at least aerobic. Anything 4.0 or 4.5 and up of any quality should, again, be at least aerobic.

By the way, and completely detached from the above....

Aerobic = Burning Fat as Fuel

Sounds obvious to many. I should mention that there are many other benefits of training your body to prefer fat as a fuel, but one that almost everyone wants.... your body is burning more fat as a fuel! Hoorah! Lower bodyfat here we come.

 

[OrangeOne]

Kinda shame there's no HIIT programme around lovemaking. P90xxx.

Chatting to a mate of mine a few weeks ago, who happens to be an elite long-distance cyclist, and he said he once got in trouble from his gf at the time for asking if he could wear his HRM during such activities.

 

[OrangeOne]

Frankly, i dont know if i can do any better as i really cant put more than 20 mts per day on cardio.

I can clearly see some of the benefits of my workout. My movement is crisper and i track down a boat load of balls than i used to before and i can sustain that energy for long periods of time.

Awesome. Results given time available is all most can ask.

Aerobic base (which I'm sorta boring myself continuing to talk about) is a long term approach. I really need to find a Jason Shortis (triathlete) article on it, really well written, and focused on the longer-term results. Wasn't a web-article tho. If I can find others, I'll link them.

Given this back ground, would my next steps be to continue running but as soon as the heart rate drops, increase the intensity so that i hit closer towards 180-200 range and after a minute or so drop the speed and repeat this cycle to keep the heart rate around 130-150 range?

Too big a question to answer without getting someone to write a program imho. I will say....were you to do this, you would want to at least program yourself so that you don't do it every session, and so that you don't do it every week, week-in, week-out. Read up on periodization.

 

[OrangeOne]

Articles, articles...

Good article - the one I talked about above (remembered who it was by incorrectly). If you're at all interested in these concepts, start with it:

http://www.duathlon.com/articles/1460

Others:

http://www.trifuel.com/training/triathlon-training/aerobic-base-training-going-slower-to-get-faster

A nice short, technical article with documented research (mentions HIT progression too)

http://www.sportingperformance.co.uk/Aerobicbasetraining.htm

Against: (Trust people more when they'll show you opposing arguments too - make up your own mind!)

http://www.malepatternfitness.com/2009/11/2/1111158/rip-aerobic-base-training-boyle

http://www.functionalstrengthcoach3.com/intervals.html (haven't watched, but the above is based on this apparently).

http://ezinearticles.com/?Is-Aerobic-Base-Training-For-Mountain-Biking-Dead?&id=2162016

 

[coyfish]

You can't train your body to prefer fat as fuel. The body always turns to sugars as its primary source of energy. You can stimulate fat burning metabolism through certain exercises / training methods but thats more related to fat loss than it is tennis training.

Just look at tennis players bodies. To be quite honest most have higher BF%'s than would be expected. And you better believe they are getting the best training advice known.


And charlie answering your question about aerobic respiration and glycogen. Yes it can but and it depends on the intensity of activity. Tennis is explosive so if sugars are there to be used then they will be via anaerobic respiration. This is because anaerobic offers the fastest source of energy. If activity continues over about 30 seconds some oxidative resp kicks in. When you play tennis you will rest often and take breaks where you will restore glycogen stores. So tennis is in between aerobic and anaerobic. Thus the best form (choosing 1) would be interval work to best simulate tennis play.

 

[coyfish]

Good article - the one I talked about above (remembered who it was by incorrectly). If you're at all interested in these concepts, start with it:

http://www.duathlon.com/articles/1460

Others:

http://www.trifuel.com/training/triathlon-training/aerobic-base-training-going-slower-to-get-faster

A nice short, technical article with documented research (mentions HIT progression too)

http://www.sportingperformance.co.uk/Aerobicbasetraining.htm

Against: (Trust people more when they'll show you opposing arguments too - make up your own mind!)

http://www.malepatternfitness.com/2009/11/2/1111158/rip-aerobic-base-training-boyle

http://www.functionalstrengthcoach3.com/intervals.html (haven't watched, but the above is based on this apparently).

http://ezinearticles.com/?Is-Aerobic-Base-Training-For-Mountain-Biking-Dead?&id=2162016

From personal experience recovery runs do work but its not something conductive to tennis.To do this you would really build a slow twitch fiber base which is definitely something you want to avoid as a tennis player.

 

[OrangeOne]

You can't train your body to prefer fat as fuel. The body always turns to sugars as its primary source of energy. You can stimulate fat burning metabolism through certain exercises / training methods but thats more related to fat loss than it is tennis training.

The wording is summative wording, 'preferring fat as fuel' means building a bigger aerobic system which means more of your exercise will be done aerobically which means burning fat predominately. Phew, that was a mouthful.

So tennis is in between aerobic and anaerobic.

No, it's both aerobic and anaerobic (and with a larger aerobic base, it'll become more aerobic). It's not lost in the middle, it's a mix of both.

Thus the best form (choosing 1) would be interval work to best simulate tennis play.

Agreed - but it's not a choice between one and the other. The concept of building an aerobic base absolutely mandates training above that level to adapt to perform. So it's either "A + then B" or just "B". No-one is questioning the "B".

 

[coyfish]

The wording is summative wording, 'preferring fat as fuel' means building a bigger aerobic system which means more of your exercise will be done aerobically which means burning fat predominately. Phew, that was a mouthful.



No, it's both aerobic and anaerobic (and with a larger aerobic base, it'll become more aerobic). It's not lost in the middle, it's a mix of both.



Agreed - but it's not a choice between one and the other. The concept of building an aerobic base absolutely mandates training above that level to adapt to perform. So it's either "A + then B" or just "B". No-one is questioning the "B".

Thats what I meant by in the middle. Both energy systems. Training your aerobic base will make you more efficient but it won't make you turn aerobic faster. Your body will always deplete sugar stores first.In tennis where you rest so often / replenish your sugars often . . . that may never happen.

 

[charliefedererer]

Good article - the one I talked about above (remembered who it was by incorrectly). If you're at all interested in these concepts, start with it:

http://www.duathlon.com/articles/1460

Others:

http://www.trifuel.com/training/triathlon-training/aerobic-base-training-going-slower-to-get-faster

A nice short, technical article with documented research (mentions HIT progression too)

http://www.sportingperformance.co.uk/Aerobicbasetraining.htm

Against: (Trust people more when they'll show you opposing arguments too - make up your own mind!)

http://www.malepatternfitness.com/2009/11/2/1111158/rip-aerobic-base-training-boyle

http://www.functionalstrengthcoach3.com/intervals.html (haven't watched, but the above is based on this apparently).

http://ezinearticles.com/?Is-Aerobic-Base-Training-For-Mountain-Biking-Dead?&id=2162016

Thanks for the references, and for including the "against" references. Oftentimes when there appears to be such a discrepency of opinion it's because the two groups are thinking of slightly different populations. For instance, I wonder how many of the HIIT athletes already had a reasonable aerobic base before starting their HIIT training.

 

[coyfish]

I think for any type of "intensity" training you need a solid foundation. You need a decent foundation for high intensity training in the gym as you need a decent foundation for cardio high intensity.

If you aren't reasonably in shape than you won't be able to push yourself hard enough for the training to be worthwhile.

 

[Tennis_Monk]

I think for any type of "intensity" training you need a solid foundation. You need a decent foundation for high intensity training in the gym as you need a decent foundation for cardio high intensity.

If you aren't reasonably in shape than you won't be able to push yourself hard enough for the training to be worthwhile.

I am not so sure. I started at zero or close to zero. Everybody at some point in time or other started at lowest common denominator.

Then it is a question of how you approach it. Right from my day 1, i went for it and i pushed myself hard. "Hard" ofcourse is a relative word and what i feel as HARD may or may not be HARD for others.

Any training is worth their while than NOT training at all.

 

[coyfish]

I am not so sure. I started at zero or close to zero. Everybody at some point in time or other started at lowest common denominator.

Then it is a question of how you approach it. Right from my day 1, i went for it and i pushed myself hard. "Hard" ofcourse is a relative word and what i feel as HARD may or may not be HARD for others.

Any training is worth their while than NOT training at all.

Well anyone can do HIT but the rewards / risk isn't worth it unless you have a solid foundation. A beginners threshold of "hard / intense" isn't near what is necessary for the benefit of HIT. High intensity training is just what its name implies . . . highly intense. Not for beginners. Thats not to say a beginner can't do them. Some people think they are doing HIT but they really aren't.

You went for it hard but frankly that isn't a smart move. When you first start working out you need to take things slow and build your intensity. That way you learn proper form while building a foundation.

 

[Tennis_Monk]

Well anyone can do HIT but the rewards / risk isn't worth it unless you have a solid foundation. A beginners threshold of "hard / intense" isn't near what is necessary for the benefit of HIT. High intensity training is just what its name implies . . . highly intense. Not for beginners. Thats not to say a beginner can't do them. Some people think they are doing HIT but they really aren't.

You went for it hard but frankly that isn't a smart move. When you first start working out you need to take things slow and build your intensity. That way you learn proper form while building a foundation.

I agree with your statement overall. I am however of the opinion that one should start pushing themselves at the earliest. The "push" can be different for different people. One can start with 0.5 miles on day 1 but can go to 0.6/0.7 within couple of days and so on. I thought a 10% increase per week in intensity/toughness is accepted norm.

I would use the VIIT (variable intensity interval training) than HIIT. VIIT is more appropriate for beginners and helps them to get to HIIT.