Greatest Doubles player of all time?

T

timnz

Legend
I should have put in the title 'Male Doubles player'. I am tempted to think John Newcombe - he is the all time record holder with 17 majors. I also think that in the 1980s that he and Stolle came out of many years of retirement and pushed prime McEnroe/Fleming to the limit. At his peak it would have been a different story I think.

What are people's thoughts? Emerson, Woodbridge, one of the Bryan Brothers, Hoad?
 
T

timnz

Legend
Mugu said:
i thought this was all settled. McEnroe. doesn't just about everyone think so? always thought it would have been great to
see him team up with Navratilova in mixed.
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There is a Myth around McEnroe as a doubles player (best doubles pair of all time - McEnroe and anyone else). However is that born out by the evidence? As I say Newcombe/Stolle nearly beat prime McEnroe/Fleming when the former pair were well into retirement.
 
Bobby Jr

Bobby Jr

G.O.A.T.
Aussie Darcy said:
How? He's not better in any big category.
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Um, these stats mean nothing in terms of what I'm suggesting. The Bryans played with each other for their entire career and the benefits that come with that is truly massive. Nestor had to make do with a variety of different partners of the years. That's a major reason for the difference in results imo.

If you took any two top 20 players and made them play solely doubles for a decade they would make the Bryans look average. They look great mostly because they were not just good but primarily because they were a permanent team - unlike basically any other modern doubles player. Go and look at the other "greatest" doubles players and there's a recurring trait - they usually played with the same partner most of the time. The Woodies... etc.

On tennis ability, not results, I think Nestor was a better doubles player than either of the Bryans - Mike in particular.
 
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Aussie Darcy

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
Bobby Jr said:
Um, these stats mean nothing in terms of what I'm suggesting. The Bryans played with each other for their entire career and the benefits that come with that is truly massive. Nestor had to make do with a variety of different partners of the years. That's a major reason for the difference in results imo.

If you took any two top 20 players and made them play solely doubles for a decade they would make the Bryans look average.
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Wow, this pretty much shows how wrong your thinking is if you only rate them because they stuck together and that any top 20 player could make them appear average.

Hilarious, truly hilarious.

They are one of the most successful and accomplished doubles teams in history. End of.

:rolleyes:
 
Bobby Jr

Bobby Jr

G.O.A.T.
Aussie Darcy said:
Wow, this pretty much shows how wrong your thinking is if you only rate them because they stuck together and that any top 20 player could make them appear average.
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I don't only rate them because they stuck together. I didn't say that at all. I said their success came significantly because of the massive benefit of working with a sole partner for an entire career. Of course they both have to be good in the first place but doubles at the high level is massively about the team - that's why basically unheard of players like, for example, Michael Venus/Raven Klaasen beat John Isner/Donald Young (in Miami yesterday). Neither is anywhere near the player that Isner or Young is individually (thinking overall ability here) but as a team they were obviously better.

Aussie Darcy said:
They are one of the most successful and accomplished doubles teams in history. End of.
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Again, irrelevant and ignores what I said through the red mist of what you appear to think I said.

Having played doubles tournaments for 30 years I think I have a great appreciation of how two decent but unspectacular players can form an insanely good doubles team if they gel right. That is the bigger part of the Bryans' success - not their individual abilities. Nestor, as an individual player, had better all-round skills than the Bryans. That is my view based on decades of following doubles right through the eras of McEnroe, Leach/Pugh, the Woodies, Paes, the Bryans etc.
 
robow7

robow7

Professional
As much as like the Bryans, they have surely benefited that rarely do the top players play doubles but when they do, Stanimal et al, are able to upset them.
 
Aussie Darcy

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
Bobby Jr said:
I don't only rate them because they stuck together. I didn't say that at all. I said their success came significantly because of the massive benefit of working with a sole partner for an entire career. Of course they both have to be good in the first place but doubles at the high level is massively about the team - that's why basically unheard of players like, for example, Michael Venus/Raven Klaasen beat John Isner/Donald Young (in Miami yesterday). Neither is anywhere near the player that Isner or Young is individually (thinking overall ability here) but as a team they were obviously better.


Again, irrelevant and ignores what I said through the red mist of what you appear to think I said.

Having played doubles tournaments for 30 years I think I have a great appreciation of how two decent but unspectacular players can form an insanely good doubles team if they gel right. That is the bigger part of the Bryans' success - not their individual abilities. Nestor, as an individual player, had better all-round skills than the Bryans. That is my view based on decades of following doubles right through the eras of McEnroe, Leach/Pugh, the Woodies, Paes, the Bryans etc.
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Nestor and Knowles were together for about 13 years and won just 3 slams. If Nestor had chopped and changed partners every year since the early 90s and managed to win a slam with each partner then maybe i'd agree with you but he hasn't. and even with his long term partners he hasn't had great success. Don't get me wrong, he's a great player, I just don't rate him near the Bryans and his results with long and short term partners show that.

Anyway, I'll never convince you different and you'll never convince me so we might as well leave it at that.
 
P

PMChambers

Hall of Fame
Edberg had potential but stopped once he cracked Top 5 singles He has better serve than Mac and his volleys where nearly on Par.
Mac won Wimbledon with Stich although Stich rarely played doubles, we would also be great doubles player. He has great touch. But untried won Wim and he played doubles at DC.
Really over hearing about current Big. 3 but Federer had potential to be great. As good as Mac. But untried over time.
 
C

Chadillac

Guest
Check out Paes stats, 18gs . He is technically a "male doubles player" in mixed :)
 
U

urban

Legend
Toto Brugnon, John Bromwich, Roy Emerson, John McEnroe. Best teams: Borotra/ Brugnon, Bromwich/ Quist, Sedgman/McGregor, Newcombe/Roche, Hewitt/ McMillan.
 
M

Moose Malloy

G.O.A.T.
timnz said:
There is a Myth around McEnroe as a doubles player (best doubles pair of all time - McEnroe and anyone else). However is that born out by the evidence? As I say Newcombe/Stolle nearly beat prime McEnroe/Fleming when the former pair were well into retirement.
Click to expand...

You seem to be putting a lot of stock in one match (it was the semis of the 1981 USO btw. I still can't believe doubles used to best of 5 in all rounds)

If you want to go that route, how about Mac which winning the San Jose doubles in 2006, after not having played on the ATP tour for over 10 years? He was way older than Newcombe and Stolle were in 1981.

And as far as Mac and 'anyone else' being the best doubles team of all time, he did win a major with Woodforde in 1989(which put him on a great career path) and with Stich in 1992. Mac played very little doubles after 1985, so these wins are pretty impressive. Heck, he even won a title with Patrick McEnroe, when patrick was a 17 year old junior! They beat Denton/Curren, a pretty accomplished team. Amazing...

And I'll never forget him firing up Sampras when they played together in the 1992 Davis Cup final(that's the only doubles match I ever recorded and rewatched, great stuff)
 
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U

urban

Legend
Moose is correct in putting emphasis on the way, players achieved wins with different doubles partners. Brugnon won important major and DC titles with virtually all other musceteers and some mixed titles with Lenglen, too. Bromwich did nöt only win with Quist, his regular partner, but also with other Aussie greats from Crawford in the 30s to Sedgman in the 50s. Without WWII he would sit on 30 major doubles titles. Emerson won i think 5 or 6 French doubles titles with 5 different partners. To his credit, Newcombe not only had Roche, also won major titles with Fletcher and Davidson, and a crucial DC match with Laver. Hewitt had McMillan, but won Wim with Stolle, too.
 
D

DMP

Professional
Always forgotten but Okker has to be on a list too. Played with different partners, none in the top 10 singles, at a time when all the top players competed, and held the record for number of titles until Woodbridge passed it.

The greatest is not self- evident.
 
Mugu

Mugu

Rookie
timnz said:
There is a Myth around McEnroe as a doubles player (best doubles pair of all time - McEnroe and anyone else). However is that born out by the evidence? As I say Newcombe/Stolle nearly beat prime McEnroe/Fleming when the former pair were well into retirement.
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nearly beat? McEnroe was probably hungover, half-asleep, and nursing a bad back. and still won.
 
I

I am the Greatest!

Professional
John McEnroe.

Point blank.

I thought this 'greatest doubles player' question has been settled long long ago? Again, it's John McEnroe and no one is even close. It's really 'John and the other guy', and whoever you pair with him, you'll most likely get a good result. He makes everyone who plays with him look better, or really, he makes them better. How can you not be the greatest doubles player if that's the case?
 
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I get cramps

I get cramps

Semi-Pro
Bobby Jr said:
.
Having played doubles tournaments for 30 years I think I have a great appreciation of how two decent but unspectacular players can form an insanely good doubles team if they gel right. That is the bigger part of the Bryans' success - not their individual abilities. Nestor, as an individual player, had better all-round skills than the Bryans. That is my view based on decades of following doubles right through the eras of McEnroe, Leach/Pugh, the Woodies, Paes, the Bryans etc.
Click to expand...

Regarding your post: Perhaps they weren't an insanely good doubles team, but they were very, very good and consistent, & they could upset just about anybody https://bit.ly/2K85QiY https://www.atpworldtour.com/en/players/emilio-sanchez/s014/titles-and-finals Seguso & Flach, as everybody knows, defetated them in the 1988 Olympics Final (3-6 4-6 7-6 7-6 7-9). What a match. I saw them play an awful lot.

One of the links directs you to the singles titles. I tried to fix but i couldn't. The doubles titles option is to the the right.
 
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Sudacafan

Sudacafan

Bionic Poster
timnz said:
Greatest Doubles player of all time?
I should have put in the title 'Male Doubles player'. I am tempted to think John Newcombe - he is the all time record holder with 17 majors. I also think that in the 1980s that he and Stolle came out of many years of retirement and pushed prime McEnroe/Fleming to the limit. At his peak it would have been a different story I think.

What are people's thoughts? Emerson, Woodbridge, one of the Bryan Brothers, Hoad?
Click to expand...

Bob Bryan or Mike Bryan?
It’s really hard to pick one of them. They seem to be the same person.
 
B

BrokenGears

Guest
I wish I could watch old tennis in better quality :(

Seemed so exciting
 
Enceladus

Enceladus

Legend
Men's Doubles: Tood Woodbridge - 9 Wimbledon Men's Doubles titles, 5 and 3 titles in row at Wimbledon, career Super Slam

Women's Doubles: Martina Navratilova - 31 GS titles, 1984 CYGS, 7-time career GS, 16 years in row (1975-1990) won at least one GS title, 13 WTA Championships titles, 177 WTA titles
 
C

chrisb

Professional
Their seems to be divergent rational for the best doubs player ever. We talking about longevity, most titles specialist? I have seen doubles since the early 50s. The most dynamic player I ever saw was Johnny Mac, No one had the all court skills he hadBest volleyer of all time be it singles or doubles. Many mentioned here are indeed great doubs players, John brought a unique skill set that no other could match
 
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