Greatest return of serve ever among men?

[jelle v]

to be quite honest, i voted for agassi. and i expected most ppl here to vote for agassi, giving preference to the more modern player over the arguably better connors. i really had a tough time voting for andre over connors, but at the end of the day, i gave him the edge just for the hell of it. but honestly federer? this is just a testament to the ridiculous fed worship we do on these boards. sure fed has a great return, and one of the best currently, but historically its almost absurd not ot put both connovrs and agassi above him.

And your arguments are..?

 

[fastdunn]

Well it's not easy to compare Federer to old generations.

Today, no one's going to volley your serve returns and there's much less pressure in that.

Even among current generation, I think a few guys like Blake or Hewitt can
return more aggressively than Federer. A few guys can use their service returns as weapons.
I don't think it's the case for Federer.

Federer has one of the best passing shots I've ever seen. Probably not the serve return.
Probably one of the best return game I've ever seen.
The 1st forehand Federer hits after service return. That's the big thing. Not the service return, IMHO.

 

[tennispro11]

Agassi. Hands down. Has faced the greatest servers in the game and won 8 slams.

 

[CEvertFan]

1. Connors
2. Agassi
3. Federer

 

[tennispro11]

1. Agassi
2. Connors
3. Federer

There changed it for you.

 

[CEvertFan]

There changed it for you.

No I meant it as I posted it. Connors had to face a lot more pure serve/volleyers in his time than Agassi did and therefore had to do more with the return with regards to spin and angles and getting it back down to the feet of the incoming volleyer even though he never possessed the level of power Agassi has. Agassi is a very close 2nd but my nod has to go to Connors. Federer is 3rd for the ease with which he handles monster 130mph+ serves.

 

[illkhiboy]

Well it's not easy to compare Federer to old generations.

Today, no one's going to volley your serve returns and there's much less pressure in that.

Even among current generation, I think a few guys like Blake or Hewitt can
return more aggressively than Federer. A few guys can use their service returns as weapons.
I don't think it's the case for Federer.

Federer has one of the best passing shots I've ever seen. Probably not the serve return.
Probably one of the best return game I've ever seen.
The 1st forehand Federer hits after service return. That's the big thing. Not the service return, IMHO.

Excellent Post.

If you notice against Nadal, Federer always lets Nadal into the game with his return. He doesn't consistently attack Nadal off the return like Blake does. To me that's the reason Blake gives Nadal problems. Doesn't let Nadal get into the groove from the first shot he gets.

 

[daddy]

Easy does it. Aggasi invented returning while ball was on the up aggasi returned some of the best serves int he world, won against thomas johanson when being aced 55 times in 4 sets !!!! WHOA - and admit it - he reall really turned the game into baseline game from predominantly s&v game !

 

[daddy]

Agassi. Hands down. Has faced the greatest servers in the game and won 8 slams.

Look at my post above, more theories, hopefully right ..

 

[Andres]

Easy does it. Aggasi invented returning while ball was on the up aggasi returned some of the best serves int he world, won against thomas johanson when being aced 55 times in 4 sets !!!! WHOA - and admit it - he reall really turned the game into baseline game from predominantly s&v game !

Winning or not winning the match is irrelevant of the point.
The idea of the return of serve is RETURNING THE SERVE!!
If you get 51 aces from Johansson, that means you spent 12 and a half games without touching the ball !! You let the other guy take the equivalent of TWO SETS without touching the ball !!!!

The idea of the return of serve is:
1) RETURN THE FREAKING BALL! Put the damn ball in play!
2) Return it deep, or unattackable
3) A return winner right away.

If you get 51 aces in 4 sets, 37 aces and 33 service winners in 5 sets (Goran), 33 aces and 29 service winners in 3 sets (Karlovic), something must be wrong.

Agassi was great at returning and punishing 2nd serves. But he gives away too many direct points.

Hewitt and Fed has a better % of returns in play. But they're not as flashy as Agassi. And that's what people remembers, the flashy guy.

That's why lots of people drool over Blake's 120 mph forehand return winner, instead of Davydenko's INCREDIBLE return of serve, which consists in pace, depth and a very high % of returns in play

 

[RB]

It's also interesting that Lendl isn't even on this list. he was pretty good. Hmm.
Anyway, Agassi(1100 matches) gave only 119 bagels in his career, Connors(1500 matches) gave about twice that many bagels.
Most of Connors came when he had to use a wooden racquet too, which is pretty amazing.

Connors never used a wooden racquet in his pro career---GeeZ!!!

 

[iamke55]

It is impossible to have a good return if you hold the record for getting aced the most times in a match, especially if the server doesn't have a GS-winning all time great serve.

 

[sandy mayer]

1. Connors bageled his opponents in 13.3% of his matches.
2. Lendl gave a bagel 11.3%
3. Agassi gave a bagel in 10.8% of his matches.
4. Federer only about 8%

Borg was a pretty good returner, too, but don't have his numbers offhand. Federer would be so much better if he would have used a two-hand backhand, course then it's a bit more difficult to dominate at wimbly like he does.

Great post. Clinches Connors as the greatest returner ever.

 

[sandy mayer]

I think, for me, it comes down to Connors, Rosewall and Agassi but I wouldn't say one was necessarily greater than the other. However, if forced to, I'd choose Agassi for the simple reason that he was slightly more dangerous off both forehand or backhand (ignore power completely, look at effectiveness of shot). However, given that the other two players won significantly more in their careers than Agassi, you can see that any distinction is very minor.

Agassi's return was the most potent, in terms of sheer pace, but, of course, he had the advantage of modern equipment so he could afford to be more offensive than the other two as his margin for error was greater (due to the technology). Connors' return was spectacular but we know he had a weakness on the forehand and he had difficulty when he wasn't being fed pace. Of course, very few players could exploit that on any surface other than red clay. Rosewall was weaker off the forehand than backhand but, given that his backhand is one of the best shots in the history of the game, that isn't so surprising. The choice for his opponents was to hit to a very strong forehand or an unbelievable backhand. They usually chose the forehand but it really was the difference between sudden death and six months in hospital: painful either way. Agassi is similar but with considerably more power and possibly more technically sound off the forehand than Rosewall and significantly moreso than Connors. Power and the ability to hit cold winners really is just a product of technology and really has nothing to do with the quality of a player's return game. Give Connors power and he could hit winners on either side. Rosewall had less power but hit winners left, right and centre due to timing and placement. End of the day, they could all hit winners, just in slightly different ways. Agassi and Rosewall could live with or without pace, as their records on European clay illustrate. Rosewall had the better record on that surface so he probably gets the edge in point construction off the return.

End of the day, I think those three are the very best we've seen and the only thing that could split them is your determination.

Connors' weakness on the forehand wasn't exposed in the return, because no serve can be made to skid really low off the ground. Connors had a great forehand return, and the best backhand return in history, easily.

 

[sandy mayer]

I am going to go with Borg.

The greatest rival of Connors and Borg, Mac, always maintained Connors had the better return. Borg wasfar more vulnerable than Connors to the wide Mac serves.

I actually think Mac had a better return than Borg. I think Borg's return was only quite good. Borg's strength was in the next shot after the return, the passing shot.

 

[West Coast Ace]

Uhh, this is an easy one and not a soul got it right. Connors. If Federer used a two handed backhand he would be better, however. He doesn't, though. It's rather scary that people here know so little about tennis.

Connors didn't get my vote because of the average speed of serve. He may have been able to handle them - we'll never know. But we do know AA and Fed have. I'd say the same of Laver - I saw him play but his return didn't stand out like AA and Fed.

I'd say Aggasi being able to take it early. But Federer is also very good. He can neatulize the power and get it back in play. Also Hewitt get's his paws on lots of serves

Hewitt should have been a selection. Safin too - if only for the job he did on Sampras in the USO final. And when his head is in the match (I know, doesn't happen very often), his return is amazing.

It is impossible to have a good return if you hold the record for getting aced the most times in a match, especially if the server doesn't have a GS-winning all time great serve.

It's not AA's fault that the rest of JJ's game hasn't developed at the same rate as his serve. And that JJ gets injured so often. You can make a case - and many have - that AA guessed a lot, thus all the aces. But one could also make the case that JJ knew his only hope was to go for aces on every serve - has any of the other contestants ever faced a server who served that big and went for it all the time? I know it didn't happen in Connor's era - and can't remember a Fed match where the server went for aces every time. 55 against AA might have been 100 against everyone else...

Where's Roddick?

 

[daddy]

Winning or not winning the match is irrelevant of the point.
The idea of the return of serve is RETURNING THE SERVE!!
If you get 51 aces from Johansson, that means you spent 12 and a half games without touching the ball !! You let the other guy take the equivalent of TWO SETS without touching the ball !!!!

The idea of the return of serve is:
1) RETURN THE FREAKING BALL! Put the damn ball in play!
2) Return it deep, or unattackable
3) A return winner right away.

If you get 51 aces in 4 sets, 37 aces and 33 service winners in 5 sets (Goran), 33 aces and 29 service winners in 3 sets (Karlovic), something must be wrong.

Agassi was great at returning and punishing 2nd serves. But he gives away too many direct points.

Hewitt and Fed has a better % of returns in play. But they're not as flashy as Agassi. And that's what people remembers, the flashy guy.

That's why lots of people drool over Blake's 120 mph forehand return winner, instead of Davydenko's INCREDIBLE return of serve, which consists in pace, depth and a very high % of returns in play

How can you say agassi gave away too many points on return ? He gave away 55 aces, which is 12 gamas - 2 sets my friend. And he won in 4 sets. Meaning that every single ball he touchedhe returned well an won the point or otherwise he would be wiped off the court in 3 sets. Btw - look at agassi 's physicque - he is shorter than your average player and of course he will give away more aces than federer or other even taller guys.

Id like to see someone else win 3 - 1 afteer being aced 55 times. Anyways you are right about federers anticipacion, he does not get aced so many times but ere is the point - he ruturns the ball into play but does not return it so wel as agassi does and does not win that many points on return, so aced or no aced agassi is better IMO.