Handle close line calls?

[EddieBrock]

In my doubles league match it was 40-30 on my serve with my on the ad side and after a long cross court rally I thought my opponent's shot land long past the baseline and I called it out. My partner reiterated my call and the other team was upset and questioned us, but accepted it. Since it was right in front of me and I saw it out I thought it was out, but I've seen in the pro matches a lot of times the person will stop play and challenge calling the shot out only to find it landed in. My partner told me he couldn't tell from where he was, but he backed my call.

I absolutely hate calling lines and don't want to cheat them, but also don't want to cheat my team and play out balls. Is it best to just call them as you see them and hope it all evens out? After that point I just felt uncomfortable about calling anything. I don't really know what to do.

 

[Limpinhitter]

In my doubles league match it was 40-30 on my serve with my on the ad side and after a long cross court rally I thought my opponent's shot land long past the baseline and I called it out. My partner reiterated my call and the other team was upset and questioned us, but accepted it. Since it was right in front of me and I saw it out I thought it was out, but I've seen in the pro matches a lot of times the person will stop play and challenge calling the shot out only to find it landed in. My partner told me he couldn't tell from where he was, but he backed my call.

I absolutely hate calling lines and don't want to cheat them, but also don't want to cheat my team and play out balls. Is it best to just call them as you see them and hope it all evens out? After that point I just felt uncomfortable about calling anything. I don't really know what to do.

The occasional bad call is part of the game, even when you have an umpire or linesman. Your duty is to make the call in good faith, in or out. If you called it out in good faith, then you made the right call.

 

[r2473]

I absolutely hate calling lines and don't want to cheat them, but also don't want to cheat my team and play out balls.

I'm in the EXTREME minority with the following view.

The rule says that you only call a ball out if you are 100% SURE it was out. Now to me, if you (and your partner) were 100% sure, you would have no problem calling the ball out and not feel a bit uncomfortable about calling such balls out in the future. The fact that you are uncomfortable tells me you think there is a chance the ball might have landed in. As such, BY RULE, YOU MUST NOT CALL THE BALL OUT. You need to play these balls and continue the point.

The rule is written so that you will almost certainly play out balls. But I'd say 99.99% of people interpret the rule the way you do. In that they call it out if they are "pretty sure" it was out. For me, that's not good enough.

In "friendly" matches (which for me, is pretty much every match, including league matches if I find myself playing them), I'll only call a ball out if I am 100% sure it was out. And even then, if my opponent questions my call and get's angry, I'll apologize give him the point without any discussion. Now I'll admit, this might be a bit extreme. But I'd rather do this than waste time and "emotional currency" arguing with a guy about a line call and then playing with that hanging over the rest of the match. I'd much rather just give them the point and continue playing. I've given away critical points (basically match ending points) in situations like this without giving it much thought.

Now, what I hate are opponents that won't assist in making a line call on my side of the net. For example, when I'm on the far side of the court and my opponent hits a ball down the line. There is no way from my perspective that I can call a ball that is close "out" with 100% certainty. But my opponent is right on the line and knows FOR SURE if their shot was in or out. So, I'll often just ask them. Sometimes they'll make the call. But more often then not, they'll say "it's your side of the court, so you have to make the call". And even in instances where I am "pretty sure" their shot must have been out (both because it looked out to me, but also by their reaction), I'll just say "well then I'll have to give you the point, because I can't call it out from my perspective over here".

In the end, I'd rather give my opponent every point (even if they hit the back fence) then play "lawyer ball" with anybody. That is my idea of a terrible time.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

If it was so close you have second thoughts, it was probably too close to conclusively call out. Benefit of the doubt goes to the opponent.

 

[Limpinhitter]

I'm in the EXTREME minority with the following view.

The rule says that you only call a ball out if you are 100% SURE it was out. Now to me, if you (and your partner) were 100% sure, you would have no problem calling the ball out and not feel a bit uncomfortable about calling such balls out in the future. The fact that you are uncomfortable tells me you think there is a chance the ball might have landed in. As such, BY RULE, YOU MUST NOT CALL THE BALL OUT. You need to play these balls and continue the point.

The rule is written so that you will almost certainly play out balls. But I'd say 99.99% of people interpret the rule the way you do. In that they call it out if they are "pretty sure" it was out. For me, that's not good enough.

In "friendly" matches (which for me, is pretty much every match, including league matches if I find myself playing them), I'll only call a ball out if I am 100% sure it was out. And even then, if my opponent questions my call and get's angry, I'll apologize give him the point without any discussion. Now I'll admit, this might be a bit extreme. But I'd rather do this than waste time and "emotional currency" arguing with a guy about a line call and then playing with that hanging over the rest of the match. I'd much rather just give them the point and continue playing. I've given away critical points (basically match ending points) in situations like this without giving it much thought.

Now, what I hate are opponents that won't assist in making a line call on my side of the net. For example, when I'm on the far side of the court and my opponent hits a ball down the line. There is no way from my perspective that I can call a ball that is close "out" with 100% certainty. But my opponent is right on the line and knows FOR SURE if their shot was in or out. So, I'll often just ask them. Sometimes they'll make the call. But more often then not, they'll say "it's your side of the court, so you have to make the call". And even in instances where I am "pretty sure" their shot must have been out (both because it looked out to me, but also by their reaction), I'll just say "well then I'll have to give you the point, because I can't call it out from my perspective over here".

In the end, I'd rather give my opponent every point (even if they hit the back fence) then play "lawyer ball" with anybody. That is my idea of a terrible time.

Here's the text of the rule:

MAKING CALLS

* * *

6. Opponent gets benefit of doubt. A player should always give the opponent the benefit of any doubt. When a match is played without officials, the players are responsible for making decisions, particularly for line calls. There is a subtle difference between player decisions and those of an on-court official. An official impartially resolves a problem involving a call, whereas a player is guided by the principle that any doubt must be resolved in favor of an opponent. A player in attempting to be scrupulously honest on line calls frequently will keep a ball in play that might have been out or that the player discovers too late was out. Even so, the game is much better played this way.

* * *

https://www.nfhs.org/media/1019033/2018-friend-at-court.pdf

 

[Dartagnan64]

Did you see the ball land beyond the line? Do you believe your eyes? Then the call is out. If you weren't convinced you saw what you thought you saw, the ball is in.

Certainty is bandied about around here as if there is such a thing. No one can be certain of anything since the eyes play tricks and for all we now we may not really exist at all. So the best you can do is be sure you only call a ball out if you clearly see court between the ball and the line and have faith that your vision is reasonably good.

I play on clay a lot so I always have a mark to go back to and ensure my calls have been right. If I found I was suddenly seeing balls out that were clearly in, I'd have to change my certainty level and require more distance bewteen the line and ball to make a "sure" call. But if i see court between the ball and line its always been out when I look back at the mark. In fact i'm generally more prone to play a out ball as in since sometimes its hard to see that separation (ball coming at you, sideline ball while you are running, etc).

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I was struck by what Vic Braden wrote: the ball can roll as much as 2" between landing and rising but our eyes do not capture everything as a smooth, continuous motion but rather as a series of snapshots which our brain stitches together like an animation. The time between snapshots is so large that when you "see" the ball land, you may be seeing it when it actually landed or maybe, on the other extreme, 2" further away. So what was actually an in ball you could see out.

That's not even accounting for age-related decline.

 

[MathGeek]

At my level, there just aren't that many that are really close, and they're usually not going that fast either. But if in doubt, I don't call it, I play it.

But balls that are hard to play, I keep running anyway so I'm in a better position to make a good call, and I'm watching carefully. Once I'm out of the play, I may as well be a good line caller.

 

[milk of amnesia]

I absolutely hate calling lines and don't want to cheat them, but also don't want to cheat my team and play out balls. Is it best to just call them as you see them and hope it all evens out? After that point I just felt uncomfortable about calling anything. I don't really know what to do.

Yes, it is best to call them as you see them and just move on. That is exactly what I do and its also what I expect my opponents to do so I don't question their calls unless the call is egregious or they are repeatedly hooking me which almost never happens.

I captain winter leagues that play indoors at a facility that has a gallery over the courts for spectators to watch matches. I often go from court to court watching matches from the 3.0 to 5.0 level and I discovered that everyone makes bad calls - sometimes in their favor and sometimes in favor of their opponents. What it taught me is that it is unrealistic to expect anyone to make correct calls all the time and that the vast majority of people are doing the best that they can. I think it does even out in the end and worrying over calls is not worth the time or the emotional stress.

If you are calling it as honestly as you can, you have nothing to worry about.

 

[Racer41c]

Thanks for this tread. It's always a good reminder to re-read the rule book. It's really very clear and once again reminds me of how wrong some of the guys are at making calls.

 

[neverstopplaying]

Put simply, a ball that is 99% out is 100% in.

 

[spun_out]

Put simply, a ball that is 99% out is 100% in.

I'm not talking about you specifically since I've never played with you obviously, but I find that people who hold this type of view are often bad line callers. As Dartagnan64 wrote above, what you see is not what you get in line calling. You need to have experience to call balls in that looks out and vice versa. If you are 100% honest with yourself (or even 99%), you will be calling serves that are 6 inches out in. Do you do that? Also, you will be calling many down-the-line shots that land on the line out when you are not near that line. Same for most balls that cross the sideline with pace.

To the OP, a good idea is to spend some time on clay and see how good of a line caller you are. You can adjust as necessary if you find that there is a systematic issue with your line calling. Also, playing doubles also helps, especially if you get your partner to call the serves hit to you so that you can see what's in/out.

 

[tennis tom]

Put simply, a ball that is 99% out is 100% in.

Right--if one hair on that ball touches the line it is good...

 

[beernutz]

I'm not talking about you specifically since I've never played with you obviously, but I find that people who hold this type of view are often bad line callers. As Dartagnan64 wrote above, what you see is not what you get in line calling. You need to have experience to call balls in that looks out and vice versa. If you are 100% honest with yourself (or even 99%), you will be calling serves that are 6 inches out in. Do you do that? Also, you will be calling many down-the-line shots that land on the line out when you are not near that line. Same for most balls that cross the sideline with pace.

To the OP, a good idea is to spend some time on clay and see how good of a line caller you are. You can adjust as necessary if you find that there is a systematic issue with your line calling. Also, playing doubles also helps, especially if you get your partner to call the serves hit to you so that you can see what's in/out.

I don't think you are interpreting what neverstopplaying wrote correctly.

 

[jmc3367]

In my doubles league match it was 40-30 on my serve with my on the ad side and after a long cross court rally I thought my opponent's shot land long past the baseline and I called it out. My partner reiterated my call and the other team was upset and questioned us, but accepted it. Since it was right in front of me and I saw it out I thought it was out, but I've seen in the pro matches a lot of times the person will stop play and challenge calling the shot out only to find it landed in. My partner told me he couldn't tell from where he was, but he backed my call.

I absolutely hate calling lines and don't want to cheat them, but also don't want to cheat my team and play out balls. Is it best to just call them as you see them and hope it all evens out? After that point I just felt uncomfortable about calling anything. I don't really know what to do.

Just do the best you can. I watched my son play a match recently and he must have played 4 balls that were out. Then in the second set he called a ball out that was in. He missed the call but there was no deception. I have no doubt he saw it out. I know how he is and he will play one a foot back sometimes. The bottom line is your gonna miss one now and then but it's my observation that most, but certainly not all, will play more out balls than call balls out that are in

 

[sureshs]

The rule says that you only call a ball out if you are 100% SURE it was out.

There is no such rule. Show it to me.

The only rule is that if you are NOT 100% sure it was out, you must call it in.

As I have told you before, read up on converse, inverse and contrapositive.

 

[Dartagnan64]

There is no such rule. Show it to me.

The only rule is that if you are NOT 100% sure it was out, you must call it in.

As I have told you before, read up on converse, inverse and contrapositive.

And I think you need to look up "semantics".

In Yoda speak: "Sure it was out, he was not, therefore it's in"

 

[Turbo-87]

I think some people tend to even question/doubt themselves if they are asked whether it was really out. There are some people who are just uncomfortable with people being upset at them and will be more apt to call balls in or play balls like they are in when they aren't.

 

[EddieBrock]

Did you see the ball land beyond the line? Do you believe your eyes? Then the call is out. If you weren't convinced you saw what you thought you saw, the ball is in.

Certainty is bandied about around here as if there is such a thing. No one can be certain of anything since the eyes play tricks and for all we now we may not really exist at all. So the best you can do is be sure you only call a ball out if you clearly see court between the ball and the line and have faith that your vision is reasonably good.

I play on clay a lot so I always have a mark to go back to and ensure my calls have been right. If I found I was suddenly seeing balls out that were clearly in, I'd have to change my certainty level and require more distance bewteen the line and ball to make a "sure" call. But if i see court between the ball and line its always been out when I look back at the mark. In fact i'm generally more prone to play a out ball as in since sometimes its hard to see that separation (ball coming at you, sideline ball while you are running, etc).

Yes, I definitely saw the ball out. Unfortunately I play most matches on hard court, but next time I'm on clay I'll double check my calls.

When I was in high school I used to play everything that wasn't way out just to be sure I didn't cheat anyone and I had my teammates complaining that I was playing shots nearly a foot out. What's struck me is on the pro tour how often players get irate and complain how obviously the ball was in/out and on the replay they're wrong. For example...

 

[r2473]

There is no such rule. Show it to me.

The only rule is that if you are NOT 100% sure it was out, you must call it in.

As I have told you before, read up on converse, inverse and contrapositive.

You need to read Plato's Parmenides and tell me what the eleatic stranger was talking about.

In the meantime, can you tell me why loving you makes me suffer so?

To love is to suffer.
To avoid suffering, one must not love.
But then one suffers from not loving.
Therefore, to love is to suffer.
Not to love is to suffer.
To suffer is to suffer.
To be happy is to love.
To be happy, then, is to suffer, but suffering makes one unhappy.
Therefore, to be unhappy one must love,
or love to suffer,|or suffer from too much happiness...
I hope you're getting this down.

 

[v-verb]

Yep it's out only if you are 100% sure it's out. If there is ANY doubt, it's in

 

[gmatheis]

I'm not talking about you specifically since I've never played with you obviously, but I find that people who hold this type of view are often bad line callers. As Dartagnan64 wrote above, what you see is not what you get in line calling. You need to have experience to call balls in that looks out and vice versa. If you are 100% honest with yourself (or even 99%), you will be calling serves that are 6 inches out in. Do you do that? Also, you will be calling many down-the-line shots that land on the line out when you are not near that line. Same for most balls that cross the sideline with pace.

To the OP, a good idea is to spend some time on clay and see how good of a line caller you are. You can adjust as necessary if you find that there is a systematic issue with your line calling. Also, playing doubles also helps, especially if you get your partner to call the serves hit to you so that you can see what's in/out.

At a state championship i missed a service return and my opponent asked me "was that ball in?" with obvious doubt in his voice. I replied that I wasn't sure so i played it and since my return was out it was his point.

I look to the side at a teammate who proceeds to hold his hands as far to either side as he can with a bewildered look on his face.

Serve was probably a foot long at least ... but I wasn't 100% sure ... so I played it as good. Life went on , and we had an enjoyable friendly match.

Much more enjoyable than arguing about line calls and getting upset.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Yep it's out only if you are 100% sure it's out. If there is ANY doubt, it's in

See this is what's bandied about as an absolute. Define certainty and doubt. I work in medical science where most treatments we give you people are based on a <5% chance that we are wrong. This is potentially life and death stuff here and we accept that chance can affect our results up to 5% of the time. Because its not feasible to produce absolute certainty in a clinical trial. It would require a million patients and decades of time to just do one study.

Similarly its pretty impossible to determine certainty when one is talking about the visual system. You can be tricked and if you know that, you are never 100% certain of what you saw. You still have to make a line call. Only those that are deluded into thinking their eyes are infallible can be certain, but it's a false certainty.

So call it out if you saw it clearly out. If you have a chance to play on clay use the clay marks as validation of your visual system. To this day I still review clay marks whenever I play to make sure I'm making proper calls. You can't totally trust your eyes but they are the best you've got. If you can't say "I clearly saw it out" then call it in but don't ever say you are without doubt. That just shows ignorance about human fallibility.

 

[Dartagnan64]

At a state championship i missed a service return and my opponent asked me "was that ball in?" with obvious doubt in his voice. I replied that I wasn't sure so i played it and since my return was out it was his point.

I look to the side at a teammate who proceeds to hold his hands as far to either side as he can with a bewildered look on his face.

Serve was probably a foot long at least ... but I wasn't 100% sure ... so I played it as good. Life went on , and we had an enjoyable friendly match.

Much more enjoyable than arguing about line calls and getting upset.

Good thing you didn't hit a winner. I can tell you that the discussion would have taken a far nastier turn.

 

[TennisLBC]

@gmatheis You Rock!

 

[gmatheis]

Good thing you didn't hit a winner. I can tell you that the discussion would have taken a far nastier turn.

I probably would have just let him take a 2nd serve ... I know that one isn't exactly in the rules but I'd feel bad winning the point only because he stopped playing when he thought his ball was out.

 

[v-verb]

See this is what's bandied about as an absolute. Define certainty and doubt. I work in medical science where most treatments we give you people are based on a <5% chance that we are wrong. This is potentially life and death stuff here and we accept that chance can affect our results up to 5% of the time. Because its not feasible to produce absolute certainty in a clinical trial. It would require a million patients and decades of time to just do one study.

Similarly its pretty impossible to determine certainty when one is talking about the visual system. You can be tricked and if you know that, you are never 100% certain of what you saw. You still have to make a line call. Only those that are deluded into thinking their eyes are infallible can be certain, but it's a false certainty.

So call it out if you saw it clearly out. If you have a chance to play on clay use the clay marks as validation of your visual system. To this day I still review clay marks whenever I play to make sure I'm making proper calls. You can't totally trust your eyes but they are the best you've got. If you can't say "I clearly saw it out" then call it in but don't ever say you are without doubt. That just shows ignorance about human fallibility.

Wow serious much? It's a sport that most of us play for fun. If I have ANY doubt in my mind, I will call the ball in favor of my opponents. Will I get some calls wrong? Of course!

And clay marks are not an absolute indication that the ball is in or not. Lest you get into an interminable debate about this - read this article https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/28/...-marks-not-instant-replay-are-final-word.html

I could say more but I'm happy your sphere and mine would (likely) never intersect except on this board

 

[spun_out]

Wow serious much? It's a sport that most of us play for fun. If I have ANY doubt in my mind, I will call the ball in favor of my opponents. Will I get some calls wrong? Of course!

And clay marks are not an absolute indication that the ball is in or not. Lest you get into an interminable debate about this - read this article https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/28/...-marks-not-instant-replay-are-final-word.html

I could say more but I'm happy your sphere and mine would (likely) never intersect except on this board

I think that you aren't understanding Dartangan64's point (well, I could be the one who's not understanding according to above post). If you call a ball that is 3 inches out and you say that you have absolutely no doubt in your mind, then I will say that you have too much confidence in your ability to call the lines. Just because you have no doubt doesn't make your calls correct.

 

[v-verb]

spun_out

I could be wrong. But I guess we just do the best we can. And your point is a good one

Although I would say several of my opponents "best" absolutely sucks as I've been robbed far too many times

 

[Morch Us]

The usage of words "thought" "hope" etc in your message indicates that there was no absoluteness on your call. That could have been out, but tennis is played better by continuing the play in cases where you are not one hundred percentage sure, which mostly means you playing a lot of balls which landed just outside if there was a camera.

In pro matches, a players career sometimes maybe based on that one point. So it is more critical that you take advantage of ANY ball which might have landed even 2cm out. So yes, they do stop the play even if not 100% sure (but have lets say 95% faith that it is out).

But in rec play your life does not depend on it and so you better play them, and continue the point. Eventually you will see that it is more enjoyable that way, and you wont feel like "it was yours" just in case you end up loosing that point.

I thought my opponent's shot land long past the baseline

 

[Morch Us]

Can you be 100% certain if the ball landed 10 feet outside line?

you are never 100% certain of what you saw.

 

[Morch Us]

If yes, then can you be at 9 feet outside? If no, can you be at 11 feet outside?
... now keep this going till you reach the point where you cannot be certain.... thats where you stop....

It does not matter whether the ball was actually out or not, what matters is you call them out only as far as you can be sure. If your eyesight is so bad.... maybe you never call anything out...... and might just have to depend on the ball to land on the next court or net.

 

[Morch Us]

Fair point. It is not a test of whether the ball was actually out or not.... it is probably a test of "confidence". But if you are 100% certain of it, then yes the call is correct (even if the ball was actually in, and you called it out).

Just because you have no doubt doesn't make your calls correct.

 

[TenS_Ace]

The call is not if it's in or out..You have to ask yourself..How does this call affect my PAY-CHECK ???

 

[winchestervatennis]

There is no spoon

 

[Limpinhitter]

There is no such rule. Show it to me.

The only rule is that if you are NOT 100% sure it was out, you must call it in.

As I have told you before, read up on converse, inverse and contrapositive.

MAKING CALLS​

7. Ball touching any part of line is good. If any part of a ball touches a line, the ball is good. A ball 99% out is still 100% good. A player shall not call a ball out unless the player clearly sees space between where the ball hits and a line.​

https://www.nfhs.org/media/1019033/2018-friend-at-court.pdf. (Pg. 37).

 

[Dartagnan64]

spun_out

I could be wrong. But I guess we just do the best we can. And your point is a good one

Although I would say several of my opponents "best" absolutely sucks as I've been robbed far too many times

yes I’m just saying do the best you can but don’t fuss about “absolute certainty”.

I use the visualization of court between the line and the ball as my level of certainty. Hawkeye might prove me wrong but typically it fits with clay court marks and opponents opinions. I’ve played with opponents that give more leeway and some that give less. I try not to fuss about it too much. Generally I’m not surprised with any ball on the outside half of the line being called out. If I hit it there, it’s a miss on my part anyway.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Can you be 100% certain if the ball landed 10 feet outside line?

You can be likely 99.9999999999999999999999% certain. But there is always an astronomically remote chance you are hallucinating.

I’ve met schizophrenic people that will tell you they are absolutely certain that aliens are stealing their brain waves. They are very likely wrong. It’s better to just state you are confident because certainty is a myth.

 

[jacob22]

I'm in the EXTREME minority with the following view.

The rule says that you only call a ball out if you are 100% SURE it was out. Now to me, if you (and your partner) were 100% sure, you would have no problem calling the ball out and not feel a bit uncomfortable about calling such balls out in the future. The fact that you are uncomfortable tells me you think there is a chance the ball might have landed in. As such, BY RULE, YOU MUST NOT CALL THE BALL OUT. You need to play these balls and continue the point.

The rule is written so that you will almost certainly play out balls. But I'd say 99.99% of people interpret the rule the way you do. In that they call it out if they are "pretty sure" it was out. For me, that's not good enough.
...

I agree. This happens so often when I'm serving and am pretty certain that my serve is just long but the receiver can't really tell from their perspective(I play mostly singles) and they play it as in. Too often I stop playing thinking that my serve was out and lose the point, sometimes the receiver agrees to let me play a 2nd serve. I'm certain from the receiving perspective that I play many out serves too.

 

[Dartagnan64]

I agree. This happens so often when I'm serving and am pretty certain that my serve is just long but the receiver can't really tell from their perspective(I play mostly singles) and they play it as in. Too often I stop playing thinking that my serve was out and lose the point, sometimes the receiver agrees to let me play a 2nd serve. I'm certain from the receiving perspective that I play many out serves too.

I was watching my wife play singles in a tourney last night and she played 6 serves that were clearly out from our vantage point (including one game point second serve). Lost all 6 points. She easily won the match but could have made it far easier on herself with better calls. But it can be tough from the receivers vantage point.

 

[Morch Us]

You can be likely 99.9999999999999999999999% certain. But there is always an astronomically remote chance you are hallucinating.

I’ve met schizophrenic people that will tell you they are absolutely certain that aliens are stealing their brain waves. They are very likely wrong. It’s better to just state you are confident because certainty is a myth.

Well I guess then you need to increase that to 20 feet. If you are still not confident, you may have to increase that further. How about if it hits the fence? Can you be 100% certain then?

In that case, that is the only ball you call out.

The point is call it out only if you are 100% certain. If you are not, then don't, even if that means you are probably playing tons of out balls.

 

[Morch Us]

I was watching my wife play singles in a tourney last night and she played 6 serves that were clearly out from our vantage point (including one game point second serve). Lost all 6 points. She easily won the match but could have made it far easier on herself with better calls. But it can be tough from the receivers vantage point.

I have to disagree with you. You somehow feel like she "deserved" those points, that itself is wrong. Once you get over that feeling, and play it in the spirit, you will never even talk about it. They were "better calls" since she was not confident, and the result of the points were as "deserved" it can ever be. She was not punished for being truthful (about being how confident she was, and so not calling them out). We can only hope that everyone do their calls this way, but I guarantee you if everyone calls this way, it will be a better overall playing experience for rec level.

On pro-level I would say you should take advantage of the systems in place, and try to maximize your income, by using all available opportunities. So challenge the call even if you are not 100% confident is, needed in pro-level.

 

[WhiteOut]

for me, if I see a color between the ball and the white line, it's out. if not, i play it. I probably play many more balls that i should...but I also don't typically have all the drama. I also find by taking this approach, I feel like my opponents are not quite so chippy with their calls either. if they are, that's their issue, and i just have to win without those close calls. less fun, but that can happen (although infrequently, thank goodness).

today i was at net and got lobbed to the deep deuce corner. chased it down and got my lob/reply over and eventually won the point. I'm pretty sure my opponent's lob was maybe as many as 4-6 inches out, but in the mad scramble by the time i decided 'for certain', my ball was already over the net. i darn sure wasn't going to call it then...that would have changed the whole dynamic of what was, to that point a very friendly, competitive match...and i prefer to keep it that way.

 

[Morch Us]

Good job.

There is another thread on late calls. Again the importance is not on whether the ball was in or out. If you are too late to call it, it was a hesitation, and it is better to continue the rally (no two chance rule), for the spirit of the game. Well done.

I'm pretty sure my opponent's lob was maybe as many as 4-6 inches out, but in the mad scramble by the time i decided 'for certain', my ball was already over the net. i darn sure wasn't going to call it then

 

[Powderwombat]

See this is what's bandied about as an absolute. Define certainty and doubt. I work in medical science where most treatments we give you people are based on a <5% chance that we are wrong. This is potentially life and death stuff here and we accept that chance can affect our results up to 5% of the time. Because its not feasible to produce absolute certainty in a clinical trial. It would require a million patients and decades of time to just do one study.

Similarly its pretty impossible to determine certainty when one is talking about the visual system. You can be tricked and if you know that, you are never 100% certain of what you saw. You still have to make a line call. Only those that are deluded into thinking their eyes are infallible can be certain, but it's a false certainty.

So call it out if you saw it clearly out. If you have a chance to play on clay use the clay marks as validation of your visual system. To this day I still review clay marks whenever I play to make sure I'm making proper calls. You can't totally trust your eyes but they are the best you've got. If you can't say "I clearly saw it out" then call it in but don't ever say you are without doubt. That just shows ignorance about human fallibility.

Maybe you need glasses mate.

Some calls are hard to judge but for the most part it's obvious...just call the damn ball how you see it, it's not rocket science. If you're "not 100% certain" a ball that lands 6 inches out is actually out, I don't know what to tell you. You're just talking a lot of nonsense.

To OP - yes you are correct, call it how you see it. You will learn that this game is full of whingers and excuse-makers. You should not soften your line calls to accommodate this childish behaviour.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Maybe you need glasses mate.

Some calls are hard to judge but for the most part it's obvious...just call the damn ball how you see it, it's not rocket science. If you're "not 100% certain" a ball that lands 6 inches out is actually out, I don't know what to tell you. You're just talking a lot of nonsense.

To OP - yes you are correct, call it how you see it. You will learn that this game is full of whingers and excuse-makers. You should not soften your line calls to accommodate this childish behaviour.

I choose to just believe what I see and leave certainty behind. I play 90% on clay so I’m probably more certain than most about my calls because I can go back and check the mark. But having faith in your calls isn’t certainty. And yes what I’m talking about is probably nonsense to those that have absolute faith that the visual world around them is as they see it.
I still think the best guideline for all players is to call balls out if they clearly see separation between ball and line. And just leave words like doubt and certainty behind.

 

[tennis tom]

Some players have better vision then others, I've played tennis with a lot of doctors and not all their calls are that accurate--which is understandable, since they are busy people and don't have the time to develop their tennis vision skills as acutely as tournament tennis players do. The eyes have muscles too, three little ones that create the focus for acute vision. Tournament players play a lot of tennis and develop those vision muscles. I've played with a lot of rec players as partners and seen their line calls up close and personal. They can be off by six inches--which is a lot! When they are on the other side of the net I take that into account--usually that six inches of variance only goes in their favor for some strange reason. If I can see a space I call it out--if I can't it's in--the space can vary from player to player depending on the acuity of their vision and the amount of focus on that particular shot.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Some players have better vision then others, I've played tennis with a lot of doctors and not all their calls are that accurate--which is understandable, since they are busy people and don't have the time to develop their tennis vision skills as acutely as tournament tennis players do. The eyes have muscles too, three little ones that create the focus for acute vision. Tournament players play a lot of tennis and develop those vision muscles. I've played with a lot of rec players as partners and seen their line calls up close and personal. They can be off by six inches--which is a lot! When they are on the other side of the net I take that into account--usually that six inches of variance only goes in their favor for some strange reason. If I can see a space I call it out--if I can't it's in--the space can vary from player to player depending on the acuity of their vision and the amount of focus on that particular shot.

Totally agree. I know my vision isn't what it was, especially when on the move. I will often play sideline balls on the run that later inspection shows were up to 6 inches out. If I'd been standing still on the line I would see things out at about 1 inch. That's generally the degree of separation I need to have to "see" it clearly when still and focused. I suspect younger eyes may be able to see 1/2 inch differences and may be able to judge balls on the move to within 2 inches.

Not sure tournament players are better line callers. Pros are notoriously bad with their challenges. I think it means more to tournament players so they may focus a bit better. And people that are trained observers will track and focus better. Some rec players will always be bad because they just have never had work or hobbies that required any visual skills of keen observation. They are the type on clay that can't even point out the right mark since they don't even spot the landing.

 

[tennis tom]

Pros are notoriously bad with their challenges.

Agreed on Hawk-Eye challenges by pros on TV, Federer has one of the worst records, but he sees the ball as well as anyone. Often these TV challenges are for gamesmanship and not really challenging the call. They may be buying some time to catch their breath, or to throw their opponent's rhythm off.

 

[winchestervatennis]

Agreed on Hawk-Eye challenges by pros on TV, Federer has one of the worst records, but he sees the ball as well as anyone. Often these TV challenges are for gamesmanship and not really challenging the call. They may be buying some time to catch their breath, or to throw their opponent's rhythm off.

It may be worth noting a ball coming at a pro may be slightly different than a rec player sees.