How to handle consistent returners ?

[Nostradamus]

To all TW forum experts
In doubles, when I am serving, I usually get free points frequently due to my heavy and good power on my serves. But I have this one guy I play against sometimes in the league that returns very consistently crosscourt well. He doesn't return big, just slow or medium pace balls that are just blocked.
So he gets in my head and I try to do too much with next ball.
OK, I know,,hit a good approach and come IN,,right ?? but then if I don't hit a great approach or volley deep on the baseline, he hits this flat ball on my feet. So again I try to do much on the approach shot as well and miss too many.

HOw do you handle guys like this ? when you are serving and hold consistently

 

[Mazilla2219]

I have this problem also but instead of medium paced balls, the returner tends to rip forehand cc consistently. They usually play the deuce side so I've actually focused on less power and more spin/placement. More down the T serves.

 

[Nostradamus]

I have this problem also but instead of medium paced balls, the returner tends to rip forehand cc consistently. They usually play the deuce side so I've actually focused on less power and more spin/placement. More down the T serves.

understand but this guy is lefty so if go up the T then I am actually serving to his forehand which is even more consistent........

I really need to keep my head and hit good approach or volleys and come in and not make mistakes going for too much. because he isn't really hurting me at all with the return, just very consistent with it.

So for a guy like me that gets easy return mistakes often get frustrated. How do I avoid this trap ?????

 

[movdqa]

It sounds like he's using your own pace against you. The really light racquets allow you to get the racquet where you want it quite quickly negating some of the pace advantage on the serve and your serve speed is somewhat of a negative as it takes time away from you to get to the net.

So I'd try adding a lot of spin, either slice or topspin and decrease the pace but try to go either wide or down the middle and get into the net. You could also work on beefing up your low volleys and your half-volleys. Also vary how fast you come to the net - if he's hitting a deep groundstroke, then try to close more quickly. If a low ball short, then you might be able to get in a short groundstroke where you can hit with a lot of pace.

 

[movdqa]

> understand but this guy is lefty so if go up the T then I am actually
> serving to his forehand which is even more consistent........

Okay, that's new information but it doesn't sound like he's ripping forehands so there's nothing wrong with going there. At least make him stretch to hit shots.

> I really need to keep my head and hit good approach or volleys and
> come in and not make mistakes going for too much. because he isn't
> really hurting me at all with the return, just very consistent with it.

Tennis is all about percentages and patience is often rewarded at the rec level. Develop the strokes you need (volley, half-volley, overhead) to help build confidence.

> So for a guy like me that gets easy return mistakes often get
> frustrated. How do I avoid this trap ?????

Always assume that the ball is going to come back.

Learn to volley so that you feel as comfortable coming into the net and playing the net as you would if hitting groundstrokes in singles.

 

[Nostradamus]

> understand but this guy is lefty so if go up the T then I am actually
> serving to his forehand which is even more consistent........

Okay, that's new information but it doesn't sound like he's ripping forehands so there's nothing wrong with going there. At least make him stretch to hit shots.

> I really need to keep my head and hit good approach or volleys and
> come in and not make mistakes going for too much. because he isn't
> really hurting me at all with the return, just very consistent with it.

Tennis is all about percentages and patience is often rewarded at the rec level. Develop the strokes you need (volley, half-volley, overhead) to help build confidence.

> So for a guy like me that gets easy return mistakes often get
> frustrated. How do I avoid this trap ?????

Always assume that the ball is going to come back.

Learn to volley so that you feel as comfortable coming into the net and playing the net as you would if hitting groundstrokes in singles.

Thanks for good advices. I have a pretty good volley, I acutally hit better volleys if the guy rips big return or with big topspin, but this guy hits kind of flat shots that somehow stay low with medium pace. I have trouble with that for unknown reason. Maybe it is because guys at my level mostly hit big topspins passing shots with good pace. and I don't see this kind of flat passing shots . ?

 

[goran_ace]

To all TW forum experts
In doubles, when I am serving, I usually get free points frequently due to my heavy and good power on my serves. But I have this one guy I play against sometimes in the league that returns very consistently crosscourt well. He doesn't return big, just slow or medium pace balls that are just blocked.
So he gets in my head and I try to do too much with next ball.
OK, I know,,hit a good approach and come IN,,right ?? but then if I don't hit a great approach or volley deep on the baseline, he hits this flat ball on my feet. So again I try to do much on the approach shot as well and miss too many.

HOw do you handle guys like this ? when you are serving and hold consistently

What is your partner doing? Is he active (calling for poach/fake poach a few times per game)? Is he taking away the middle to let you come forward like he should or is he hugging the sideline and just playing 'his half' (leaving you vulnerable)?

 

[Aretium]

Surely this is perfect for doubles? These are kind of the returns I want, top/slice first serve usually results in an average return, come to the net and play the point off. You should win 80% of these exchanges. There is very little point in hitting big flat bombs in any level of tennis unless you are 6.4+. Transfer that racket head speed into topspin-slice serves, work the percentages. I don't ever really consciously go for aces in doubles, just go closer to the lines with spin and if they read it wrong, ace. I'm sorry but your volleys are def not that good if you struggle with flat shots (which don't change trajectory much) vs topspin.

You have to treat your serve differently against good returners, they make you go for too much, remember that the same serve on a 1st and on a 2nd serve will bring more errors if hit as a first serve. On the deuce court as well, you can hit 80% slice out wide serves. Then every now and then throw in one down the T. Stick to this game plan, it can be hard for some players to stick to game plans.

 

[heninfan99]

I know what I would try...I would give him a 2nd serve as my first serve, try to spin it into his body. And expect a number of shots to win the point. You could also try staying back and work your way in eventually if you can match him from the baseline.

Or spin serve, hit to other guy.

 

[Aretium]

I know what I would try...I would give him a 2nd serve as my first serve, try to spin it into his body. And expect a number of shots to win the point. You could also try staying back and work your way in eventually if you can match him from the baseline.

Or spin serve, hit to other guy.

This is good advice, in doubles I usually expect a 3/4 shot rally. Serve, return, then depending on the return I try and hit the volley deep giving me time to close the net. The deep volley usually results in a lob or weak pass. I see many serve-volley attempts in doubles fail because the first volley is short or not low enough. The short volley does not give you time to close the net and the resulting volley is a lot tougher.

 

[Easy Rider]

To all TW forum experts
In doubles, when I am serving, I usually get free points frequently due to my heavy and good power on my serves. But I have this one guy I play against sometimes in the league that returns very consistently crosscourt well. He doesn't return big, just slow or medium pace balls that are just blocked.
So he gets in my head and I try to do too much with next ball.
OK, I know,,hit a good approach and come IN,,right ?? but then if I don't hit a great approach or volley deep on the baseline, he hits this flat ball on my feet. So again I try to do much on the approach shot as well and miss too many.

HOw do you handle guys like this ? when you are serving and hold consistently

If you can win point just with a serve - good.
But in doubles, you would like to involve into play your partner. So you have to set up something for him.
In your case, variety and maybe more serves to the body and your partner heavily involved (poaching or just faking, but being constant threat for a returner)

 

[Nostradamus]

If you can win point just with a serve - good.
But in doubles, you would like to involve into play your partner. So you have to set up something for him.
In your case, variety and maybe more serves to the body and your partner heavily involved (poaching or just faking, but being constant threat for a returner)

yes I agree. mixing up some I formation too to throw him off. I have to expect the serve to come back and not get frustrated if it does. Mindset is critical I think. How do you have tougher mindset when serving even if you have pretty big serve.

 

[Nostradamus]

This is good advice, in doubles I usually expect a 3/4 shot rally. Serve, return, then depending on the return I try and hit the volley deep giving me time to close the net. The deep volley usually results in a lob or weak pass. I see many serve-volley attempts in doubles fail because the first volley is short or not low enough. The short volley does not give you time to close the net and the resulting volley is a lot tougher.

GREAT advice. but after I hit the deep volley, the guy will attempt a lob so should I still close in really tight ?? then I am vunerable to lob, am I not ?

 

[Aretium]

yes I agree. mixing up some I formation too to throw him off. I have to expect the serve to come back and not get frustrated if it does. Mindset is critical I think. How do you have tougher mindset when serving even if you have pretty big serve.

Step 1. You do not have a BIG serve.

I used to think I had a big serve, then after experience I realised my partner who is older by around 8 years, had a smaller serve in terms of MPH but would hold more service games. The term BIG serve is wrong. In tennis each point is equal. Look at Federer, he averages 117 mph on his first serve. It is all in the head. I am always trying to increase rhs but not to hit big serves. I would love the day where I could hit a 120mph with heavy slice/top.

I'm sure you do have a BIG serve, but mostly big servers are for talk after matches in the bar/clubhouse when people are talking about different players. It is always "that's the guy with the big serve".

 

[Nostradamus]

Step 1. You do not have a BIG serve.

I used to think I had a big serve, then after experience I realised my partner who is older by around 8 years, had a smaller serve in terms of MPH but would hold more service games. The term BIG serve is wrong. In tennis each point is equal. Look at Federer, he averages 117 mph on his first serve. It is all in the head. I am always trying to increase rhs but not to hit big serves. I would love the day where I could hit a 120mph with heavy slice/top.

I'm sure you do have a BIG serve, but mostly big servers are for talk after matches in the bar/clubhouse when people are talking about different players. It is always "that's the guy with the big serve".

so hit more spin serves with placement ??? so how or what strategy would you use with serves ?

 

[Aretium]

so hit more spin serves with placement ??? so how or what strategy would you use with serves ?

You need to practice a lot of slice (with topspin) serves as they require very fast racket head speed and will tire you. Strategy is something we can't help you with as it depends on the player. I usually in the first game will go for a few body serves as I haven't caught my rhythm and neither has my opponent. The body serve is the most percentage play due to net height and the size of the service box. Pick out weak sides and break them down, but also don't strengthen them. Slowly get into the groove and hit your spots. Strategy in tennis can be overrated heavily as it is down to execution. Goes without saying that you should spend most of your time building a killer second serve. I love to mix up kickers, slices and twist serves, as they usually have the same trajectory but one kicks, and the other two will bounce in different directions.

 

[Nostradamus]

You need to practice a lot of slice (with topspin) serves as they require very fast racket head speed and will tire you. Strategy is something we can't help you with as it depends on the player. I usually in the first game will go for a few body serves as I haven't caught my rhythm and neither has my opponent. The body serve is the most percentage play due to net height and the size of the service box. Pick out weak sides and break them down, but also don't strengthen them. Slowly get into the groove and hit your spots. Strategy in tennis can be overrated heavily as it is down to execution. Goes without saying that you should spend most of your time building a killer second serve. I love to mix up kickers, slices and twist serves, as they usually have the same trajectory but one kicks, and the other two will bounce in different directions.

I meant what should you do when the return comes back ? and when should you take the weak return and rip it up the line at the netman ?

 

[Easy Rider]

You need to practice a lot of slice (with topspin) serves as they require very fast racket head speed and will tire you. Strategy is something we can't help you with as it depends on the player. I usually in the first game will go for a few body serves as I haven't caught my rhythm and neither has my opponent. The body serve is the most percentage play due to net height and the size of the service box. Pick out weak sides and break them down, but also don't strengthen them. Slowly get into the groove and hit your spots. Strategy in tennis can be overrated heavily as it is down to execution. Goes without saying that you should spend most of your time building a killer second serve. I love to mix up kickers, slices and twist serves, as they usually have the same trajectory but one kicks, and the other two will bounce in different directions.

Nice one ... have to add, me and my brother played 24 league double matches, wining 20 of them ... Back then, I had a huge big serve and he had some tricky kickers. He set up plays for me, and easily won his service games with me poaching almost everything that crossed the net ... In the middle of our "doubles journey" I tweaked my serves and ended up playing singles with same mentality : dont go with a killer shot, set up an easy volley/put away, 1/2 combo ... %s !!!

 

[zdw33]

I would just vary speeds and spins just to get him off balance and hope he mistimes a few

 

[Easy Rider]

I meant what should you do when the return comes back ? and when should you take the weak return and rip it up the line at the netman ?

If net rushing :
- if the return is high, kill returners partner
- if return is lower, go deep on returner (I prefer straight toward him) and reposition on the net

If staying back :
- hit deep cross to involve partner
and away from returners partner to avoid his involment
dont go for big angles cuz you will isolate your partner (to defend the alley)


but mostly depends do you prefer net rushing or staying behind

 

[heninfan99]

I formation! Play with his mind.

 

[Aretium]

If net rushing :
- if the return is high, kill returners partner
- if return is lower, go deep on returner (I prefer straight toward him) and reposition on the net

If staying back :
- hit deep cross to involve partner
and away from returners partner to avoid his involment
dont go for big angles cuz you will isolate your partner (to defend the alley)


but mostly depends do you prefer net rushing or staying behind

This is pretty good strategy. You should go 90% of the time crosscourt back to the returner. If he is gettin mediocre returns back, work on serve and volley. I serve volley 90% in doubles <10% in singles.

If you are playing baseline doubles, rip high cross court balls with spin and deep, approach, most of the time you will get a lob.

When s/v, always aim the first volley deep to give you time to close the net. I see great volleyers hit short and occasionally they will be sitters. When you are at a good position at the net, hit short and down the middle, don't try and pull them off the court at the tramlines as you can open the court for them and your partner may not defend well.

Also, try and hit the net man as much as you can, when you have time.. When I mean hit, not literally hit them but around the body is very hard to defend.

In general doubles for me when serving is 70% serves 15%first volleys and 10% smashes. Work on smashes.

 

[dominikk1985]

consistent returners even if they don't crush the ball but only play back a neutral solid ball are very hard to play. chances are that a player that returns everything well (not just scramble it back) is just a better player.

returns are underrated. the return is probably the second most important shot after the serve in pro tennis and the top returners are usually also very well placed in the world ranking. returning well puts tremendous pressure on your opponent.

I even think that return quality has an even higher correlation with quality than serve quality (because among the top servers there are also some servebots with limited overall game).

 

[Nostradamus]

Can you guys give me more specific on when you come in on crosscourt approach shot, what should I DO ? because if I hit a good approach, he tends to lob my partner. should I only come in to service line or close in really tigtht ??

also if I come in to service line and I have to cover the lob over my partner then I am hitting a Backhand overhead or volley which I can't hit hard enough to put away which can become a frustration..........

 

[Aretium]

Can you guys give me more specific on when you come in on crosscourt approach shot, what should I DO ? because if I hit a good approach, he tends to lob my partner. should I only come in to service line or close in really tigtht ??

also if I come in to service line and I have to cover the lob over my partner then I am hitting a Backhand overhead or volley which I can't hit hard enough to put away which can become a frustration..........

Depends what the approach is. If it is a good approach, the chances are that the lob will be very high and not a lob winner. Practice smashes and eventually they become easier. If the opponent is hitting lob winners with topspin, then your approach shots need to be better.

Always close down the net. What can happen during a match is the opponent realises that their passes are not working due to you being tight to the net. They may start lobbing, in which case you can split step around the service line (or closer).

 

[Nostradamus]

what about if he lobs over my partner ?? and I have to cover for him and hit a backhand overhead ?

 

[Aretium]

what about if he lobs over my partner ?? and I have to cover for him and hit a backhand overhead ?

If this is happening a lot, then your approach shot is not good enough. Mix the approach up, flatten out sometimes, slow it down with spin. If you hit a volley deep with good spin for penetration, most of the lobs you will get will be hit with slice, these lobs have to hit around 2 metres from the baseline to do any damage.

You can tell your partner to fix his court positioning as well.

 

[Shroud]

what about if he lobs over my partner ?? and I have to cover for him and hit a backhand overhead ?

Is your partner standing too close to the net to cover the lob? Thats pretty common.

also what kind of serves are you hitting? Can you mix it up, hit some spin, get him lulled into sleep and then bring the heat, etc. Does your partner poach and fake and move around to keep him off guard? If he is hitting medium pace balls do you have your partner just poach occasionally regardless of the return?

He's getting in your head, get in his!

What you cant hit a BH smash?? Shame!

Without seeing, are you hitting directly at the guy? Often we get into that habit from friendly rallies. you can hit back in his direction but make him take a few steps which makes it a bit harder to lob. I am hugely guilty of that...

Last week I played a lefty and the 1st set he was really getting consistent returns and my partner and I lost our 1st service games. long story short I had my partner start poaching, play Iformation at key points, I moved around on the service line, did a lot of twists to the body, some down the t, etc. Mostly it worked and he started missing or getting poached.

Its a team sport doubles so have your partner make it easier for you.

And sometimes those medium returns need to be crushed at the netman...even if you miss.

 

[Bagumbawalla]

I would divide this into 2 parts.

1 Looking for the return. Most really consistant returners (as a part of their consistancy) hit the returns in a similar way to a particular area of the court. After checking out their return precentages and noticing their preferences- you can prepare for them- anticipate better- get ready and pressure them with your next shot.

2. Vary your own serve- make it harder for them to groove-in on your serve and go for winners- pull them wide one time and go down the middle another- and so on. Of course this only works if you have the variety of serves to test them with-- if not, then part of the answer is-- you need to seriously practice.

 

[Alchemy-Z]

placement over power in doubles and your partner can help you out...have him cheat to the middle a little looking for the cross court poach and be prepared to cover his alley . When he see's the chance he will change to go DTL (which will not be his usual shot so lower % and over a higher part pf the net)

When someone is serving behind me I tend to watch for trends and if the guys bread and butter in cross court I give up some alley just to see if he will go for it...and I will get burned a few times but I will also get some errors from him that he would never give up with his cross court shots.

 

[spaceman_spiff]

Can you guys give me more specific on when you come in on crosscourt approach shot, what should I DO ? because if I hit a good approach, he tends to lob my partner. should I only come in to service line or close in really tigtht ??

also if I come in to service line and I have to cover the lob over my partner then I am hitting a Backhand overhead or volley which I can't hit hard enough to put away which can become a frustration..........

To be honest, I think you would be better off learning to more accurately evaluate your game, because I don't think you're hitting your shots as well as you think you are.

If you truly do have a big serve and the ability to hit good approach shots, then you wouldn't be asking us for advice on what to do; you'd be holding serve easily, with your partner hitting tons of easy put-aways. In reality, you're consistently facing good returns that your partner can't poach and effective lobs. Those are not things that happen to someone with an effective serve and good approach shots.

The first question you should ask yourself is whether or not you can hit a variety of serves with disguise. That is, can you place the ball out wide and DTM with the same toss so that your opponent doesn't know what's coming and has to stretch to reach the ball? If not, then that should be your first goal.

The second question you should ask yourself is whether or not your approach shots put your opponent in a difficult position. Are you keeping your slices and volleys low so that he has to hit up? Are you hitting your topspin shots deep so that he has to step back or try a difficult shot on the rise? If not, then that should be your second goal.