How to lower kick serve contact point

[johnmccabe]

On my kick serve contact point, the racquet is too vertical. The contact point is lower than my slice and flat serves, but not enough. When I try to hit it a little bit late, I end up bending the elbow at contact. How to fix this? Been trying for a few weeks and not making any progress.

 

[LeeD]

Arching your back and bending your knees more places you in a "face the sky" position, and lowers your shoulders, so you can swing upwards instead of towards the opponent.

 

[eah123]

I don’t like the advice to arch your back or to bend your knees more. I think the best way to achieve the proper contact on the kick serve is to have more shoulder turn on the takeback.

 

[johnmccabe]

Arching your back and bending your knees more places you in a "face the sky" position, and lowers your shoulders, so you can swing upwards instead of towards the opponent.

I'm no longer 20 unfortunately. My thoracic extension passes the test, but not comfortable to really push it much further.

 

[johnmccabe]

I don’t like the advice to arch your back or to bend your knees more. I think the best way to achieve the proper contact on the kick serve is to have more shoulder turn on the takeback.

I'm already turning a lot more than on my flat and slice...

 

[Curious]

Reduce the angle between the racket and your forearm by changing the way you hold the racket. And try to keep it at contact. You can’t but still try so that at least it’s not 180 degrees .

 

[johnmccabe]

Reduce the angle between the racket and your forearm by changing the way you hold the racket. And try to keep it at contact. You can’t but still try so that at least it’s not 180 degrees .

I have the wrist relaxed throughout the serve motion. Can't figure out how to control that angle. I'm already closer to eastern backhand grip than continental.

 

[Curious]

More of a hammer hold instead of pistol hold. It’s not about your grip type.

https://imgur.com/a/PypZao2

https://imgur.com/a/imR0c93

 

[TennisCJC]

You hit lower by hitting with an angle between the arm and racket shaft. Notice how the hand is well outside of the ball in the video below. Don't think about letting the ball drop instead think about making contact with the ball with the hand well outside of the contact. Sam Stosur hand is well outside contact point and angle from hand to ball is like \. Just think about having the entire racket shaft outside of the ball at contact - basically a 45 degree angle from the hand to the ball.

 

[johnmccabe]

You hit lower by hitting with an angle between the arm and racket shaft. Notice how the hand is well outside of the ball in the video below. Don't think about letting the ball drop instead think about making contact with the ball with the hand well outside of the contact. Sam Stosur hand is well outside contact point and angle from hand to ball is like \. Just think about having the entire racket shaft outside of the ball at contact - basically a 45 degree angle from the hand to the ball.

I didn't find many good pinpoint stance kick serve to emulate. Maybe this is what I need.

I know I need to achieve that angle. Can't figure out how to make it happen.

 

[TennisCJC]

I didn't find many good pinpoint stance kick serve to emulate. Maybe this is what I need.

I know I need to achieve that angle. Can't figure out how to make it happen.

Here's a video that may help. The drill at about 2 minutes in where he makes contact with the correct angle and then finishes and stops his follow thru with a fully extended arm may help. Stop with your arm point up and to the R a smidge for righty server.

 

[johnmccabe]

Here's a video that may help. The drill at about 2 minutes in where he makes contact with the correct angle and then finishes and stops his follow thru with a fully extended arm may help. Stop with your arm point up and to the R a smidge for righty server.

Ok. Will give it a try.

 

[TennisDawg]

Here's a video that may help. The drill at about 2 minutes in where he makes contact with the correct angle and then finishes and stops his follow thru with a fully extended arm may help. Stop with your arm point up and to the R a smidge for righty server.

He does the same thing I do when I try to hit the frame. But anyway I thought he would go to the next step with the correct ball toss location. Behind your head toss is asking for back and arm problems.

 

[TennisCJC]

He does the same thing I do when I try to hit the frame. But anyway I thought he would go to the next step with the correct ball toss location. Behind your head toss is asking for back and arm problems.

I think older players and rec players should aim the kick toss toward 12 o'clock or just a little L of 12 for a righty. This will allow you to get the right swing path for topspin without putting a lot of stress on your back. Use the knees to bend back and avoid arching the back. He has other videos where he goes into more detail if you want to search his channel.

 

[TennisDawg]

I think older players and rec players should aim the kick toss toward 12 o'clock or just a little L of 12 for a righty. This will allow you to get the right swing path for topspin without putting a lot of stress on your back. Use the knees to bend back and avoid arching the back. He has other videos where he goes into more detail if you want to search his channel.

Yeah but I though for kick the toss is roughly above your left shoulder for a righty not beind your head and for topspin maybe st 12.

 

[socallefty]

Do any coaches say to lower the contact point for kick serves? Usually I’ve been taught only the different swing path and the different toss location.

 

[Curious]

Do any coaches say to lower the contact point for kick serves? Usually I’ve been taught only the different swing path and the different toss location.

 

[TennisCJC]

Do any coaches say to lower the contact point for kick serves? Usually I’ve been taught only the different swing path and the different toss location.

There are few coaches on YouTube advocating a lower contact point. You are still getting full extension but since the angle from the hand to contact is roughly 45 degrees, the contact point is a little lower than a slice or flat serve. The contact point has to be a little lower to allow the racket face to move upwards to create topspin. When practicing, I will think of getting the angle and hitting up but don't really think of a lower contact point.

 

[Curious]

don't really think of a lower contact point.

Give it a go. It helps. I guess there’s an optimum for everything.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Nobody is going anywhere with the kick serve until the issue of how closed the racket face is just before impact is understood. 13-15 degrees closed is my current estimate based on a handful of measurements of probable kick serves. [Slice & flat serves are around 0 degrees!] This subject has been explored and there are very few videos of confirmed kick serves that are available.

The thread Junior Twist Serve has many relevant videos and discussions.

I posted how - and from what camera angle - to video the racket to observe the tilt of the racket face.

I also asked for volunteers with strong kick serves to contact me to get some instructions on getting video of the kick racket tilt.

Topspin Tennis has a video of a Federer kick serve that happens to catch the tilt. That is what is needed but under controlled conditions of confirmed kick serves. A video of the high bounce to the right would confirm the high right bounce.

Note - I consider as kick serve to bounce up and to the right from the point of view of a right handed server.

There have almost been 20 years of forum posts without the crucial video of the kick serve becoming discovered. Most players have a Waiter's Tray technique and you cannot hit a kick serve with that. Most do not understand what motion causes the racket head to rise while in contact with the ball. All that is readily visible in clear high speed videos.

Google: Chas Tennis Kick serve Youtube

Forum Search: Kick Serve Chas
Member: Chas Tennis

(A forum search is available at the top right of this post.)

 

[Chas Tennis]

There are issues here with the real height of impact. If you use the word 'lower' as your description of the serve it may screw things up.

This camera view shows why the racket strings rise for the kick serve. To single frame on Vimeo, go full screen, stop frame, hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS. Side camera views are also needed.

Slice Serve

Kick Serve

Compare the kick & slice frames - shown there as thumbnails to represent the video.

KICK SERVE at IMPACT. From the back camera view, the arm appears straighter up. From the side camera view, since that kick serve video was made, I realized that the arm and racket tilt forward at impact, (that tilt is not well shown is the camera view from behind).

SLICE SERVE at IMPACT. From the back camera view, the arm is tilted more to the right. From the side camera view, the racket appears about vertical. The racket has risen so that the forearm to racket angle is larger.

All these angles affect the appearances of the height of impact from various camera views. It is very cumbersome to describe in words but the angles can be seen with two orthogonal camera angles. The behind and side camera views work well. Suggest that you always view from these two camera angles before drawing any conclusions. The server is spinning around in the middle of all that and simplifies things with words such as 'lower'. It is 3D and there are very few true verticals.

The racket head rises at high speed and we can see when the elbow straightened and all other motions, including ISR, occurred relative to that racket rise. For the kick serve, the racket head continues to rise as the strings push on the ball. For the slice serve, the racket impacts the ball much closer to the highest point that the racket head ever reaches, the upward component of string velocity is much lower than for the kick serve. This is very incomplete and important things are left out.

Now look at the video carefully and you must see where the spin of the kick serve comes from and the joint motions that give the high speed upward motion to the racket head.